33 replies to this topic

[AAGR]

Has any other F1 constructor changed its engine supplier more often than Williams ?

As far as I can see, since the late 1970s the company has changed its allegiance from Ford to Honda, to Judd, to Renault, to BMW, back to Ford, to Toyota, back to Ford, then (currently) back to Renault.

Is that an F1 record ?

AAGR

[bsc]

As far as I can see, since the late 1970s the company has changed its allegiance from Ford to Honda, to Judd, to Renault, to BMW, back to Ford, to Toyota, back to Ford, then (currently) back to Renault.

Is that an F1 record ?

Williams also ran Mecachrome and Supertec engines (essentially rebranded Renault units in the late 90s). However, Jordan had eight engine changes during their years in Formula 1 - Ford, Yamaha, Hart, Peugeot, Mugen Honda, Honda, back to Ford and finally Toyota.

However, longer serving teams such as Arrows (Ford, BMW, Megatron, back to Ford, Mugen Honda, Hart, Yamaha, Arrows (a rebranded Hart V10), Supertec, Asiatech and finally Cosworth); Minardi (Ford, Motori Moderni, Ford again, Ferrari, Lamborghini, another stint with Ford, Hart, Fondmetal, European (the last two being rebranded Cosworth engines), Asiatech and Cosworth); and Ligier (Matra, Ford, Matra again, Ford again, Renault, Megatron, Judd, another stint with Ford, Lamborghini, aa return to Renault and finally Mugen Honda) have had a similar number of changes. In the case of some of these teams, the number of engine suppliers can be increased by taking into account later incarnations of the team.

Edited by bsc, 19 October 2012 - 11:45.

[arttidesco]

Lets see McLaren started with Ford (Indy), Serenissima, BRM, Ford (Cosworth), dabbled with Alfa Romeo while still running Cosworths, moved to TAG (Porsche), Honda, Ford, Peugeot and now Mercedes, which I make 10, not including testing the Lamborghini V12.

[kayemod]

Even more stable teams like McLaren have had quite a few changes. If we just list race engines and ignore tests, the list goes, Ford, Serenissima, BRM, Ford again, TAG Porsche, Honda, more Ford, Peugeot, and Mercedes to date.

Edit: arti got in first by just over one minute, I'd have beaten him if I hadn't stopped to check something in Autocourse, but I missed out Alfa.

Edited by kayemod, 19 October 2012 - 12:27.

[arttidesco]

Even more stable teams like McLaren have had quite a few changes. If we just list race engines and ignore tests, the list goes, Ford, Serenissima, BRM, Ford again, TAG Porsche, Honda, more Ford, Peugeot, and Mercedes to date.

Edit: arti got in first by just over one minute, I'd have beaten him if I hadn't stopped to check something in Autocourse, but I missed out Alfa.

I almost stopped to check with Wiki but I thought I'd just take a chance that I got it correct before some one else got in there

[kayemod]

I almost stopped to check with Wiki...

Ah well, you've certainly trumped me there. As anyone on here will tell you, Wiki is infinitely more reliable than Autocourse...

[KWSN - DSM]

Not a list of all teams, but existing with a history and then some from the past:

Williams
--
Renault
Ford Cosworth
BMW
Honda
Cosworth
Toyota
Judd
Mecachrome
Supertec

Lotus
--
Ford Cosworth
Renault
Climax
BRM
Honda
Judd
Cosworth
Mugen Honda
Lamborghini
Pratt & Whitney
Ford
Maserati
Borgward

McLaren
--
Mercedes
Ford Cosworth
Honda
TAG Porsche
Peugeot
BRM
Alfa Romeo
Ford
Serenissima
Climax

Sauber
--
Petronas
Ferrari
Ford Cosworth
Sauber
Mercedes

Brabham
--
Ford Cosworth
BMW
Alfa Romeo
Climax
Judd
Repco
BRM
Yamaha
Ford

Arrows
--
Ford Cosworth
BMW
Megatron
Arrows
Asiatech
Yamaha
Supertec

Jordan
--
Ford Cosworth
Peugeot
Mugen Honda
Honda
Hart
Toyota
Yamaha

Minardi
--
Ford Cosworth
Motori Moderni
Cosworth
European
Hart
Fondmetal
Asiatech
Ferrari
Lamborghini

[kayemod]

Not a list of all teams, but existing with a history and then some from the past:


McLaren
--
Mercedes
Ford Cosworth
Honda
TAG Porsche
Peugeot
BRM
Alfa Romeo
Ford
Serenissima
Climax

Hmmmm. And when did McLaren ever use a Climax engine?

[arttidesco]

Hmmmm. And when did McLaren ever use a Climax engine?

You beat me to it Rob !

[D-Type]

What this thread does show is that all the garagiste teams have used a multiplicity of engines ove the years.

Can anybody say which team/manufacturer has used the fewest different engines? To take into account the differing number of seasons contested, some form of normalising factor will have to be applied - average per year or average per 5 years to get whole numbers. With the earlier cars we also need to decide whether to include privateers such as Lotus-Borgward and Cooper-Ferrari or only factory entries.

Edited by D-Type, 19 October 2012 - 20:32.

[kayemod]

What this thread does show is that all the garagiste teams have used a multiplicity of engines ove the years.

Can anybody say which team/manufacturer has used the fewest different engines?

That's the easiest question ever asked on TNF, Ferrari of course!

[D-Type]

That's the easiest question ever asked on TNF, Ferrari of course!

Is it?

You could say that Ferraris have been powered by Ferrari and Lancia, BRM powered by BRM and Climax, Connaught by Lea Francis and Alta, Eagle by Eagle and Climax

Alfa Romeo, Talbot Lago, Vanwall, Honda, Porsche and Scarab definitely used only one engine. Not sure about whether Gordini and Simca-Gordini counts as two engines or one.

My question should have said "Which garagiste team .... ?" as that's what I meant

[uechtel]

My question should have said "Which garagiste team .... ?" as that's what I meant

Not too much more difficult, probably. I think there is only Connew...

Edited by uechtel, 19 October 2012 - 19:19.

[kayemod]

Not too much more difficult, probably. I think there is only Connew...

Amon?

[KWSN - DSM]

Hmmmm. And when did McLaren ever use a Climax engine?

Monaco 1968.

Kieth St. John entered by Ken Sheppard, car was not available so he never got to run it as the car was not available so guess a stretch to claim it for McLaren.

[Tim Murray]

Many of the garagiste teams used only one make of engine. To name Grand Prix winners only - Hesketh, Penske, Wolf and Stewart.

Edited by Tim Murray, 19 October 2012 - 19:28.

[arttidesco]

Many of the garagiste teams used only one make of engine. To name Grand Prix winners only - Hesketh, Penske, Wolf and Stewart.

Not to forget Ensign, Trojan, Lyncar, Token, Safir, Penske, Parnelli, Maki, Lec and 'quick' Kojima to name a few more random examples.

Edit: Tim mentioned Penske already

Edited by arttidesco, 19 October 2012 - 20:21.

[D-Type]

Many of the garagiste teams used only one make of engine. To name Grand Prix winners only - Hesketh, Penske, Wolf and Stewart.

Not to forget Ensign, Trojan, Lyncar, Token, Safir, Penske, Parnelli, Maki, Lec and 'quick' Kojima to name a few more random examples.

Edit: Tim mentioned Penske already

Well, yes. There are rather a lot of them even if you factor in how many seasons they lasted.

[KWSN - DSM]

There have been some +150 constructors, but a lot of them ran a very limited program and would therefore never have the chance for a lot of engines. Someone posted above 5 seasons or more, that would bring the number of constructors down to about 50.

[Bloggsworth]

Didn't Shadow test a Matra engine at Silverstone?

[arttidesco]

Didn't Shadow test a Matra engine at Silverstone?

IIRC Jumper Jarrier raced it at Monza, Motor Sport had a photo of him driving it

[KWSN - DSM]

Jarier qualified the Shadow Matra 13th in Italy, retired on lap 32 with a fuel pump issue. The qualified it 14th at the following Grand Prix in Austria, retired on lap 10 with fuel injection issues.

[arttidesco]

Jarier qualified the Shadow Matra 13th in Italy, retired on lap 32 with a fuel pump issue. The qualified it 14th at the following Grand Prix in Austria, retired on lap 10 with fuel injection issues.

Wouldn't the Austrian race have come before Italy ?

[Tim Murray]

It most definitely did. Jarier also practised the Matra-engined DN7 at Watkins Glen, but raced the Cosworth-engined DN5.

[packapoo]

Well, the impecunious Frank has to shop around.
Quite simple really.

[uechtel]

Not too much more difficult, probably. I think there is only Connew...

Amon?

Well, the question was for garagistes

[Lee Nicolle]

Gee Ferrari are boring, they have ever only used Ferrari engines!

[D-Type]

Gee Ferrari are boring, they have ever only used Ferrari engines!

To stretch a point: after they took over the Lancia team Ferrari tried various combinations including a Ferrari chassis, I think it was a 'Super Squalo' , with a Lancia V8 engine - once only.

[KWSN - DSM]

To stretch a point: after they took over the Lancia team Ferrari tried various combinations including a Ferrari chassis, I think it was a 'Super Squalo' , with a Lancia V8 engine - once only.

Did Ferrari not run with either a Ford or Jaguar engine once?

[D-Type]

Biondetti's Ferrari-Jaguar at Monza* in 1950. But there's some doubt as to whether it really had a Ferrari chassis.

* and also at Syracusa and Pescara, I think.

[uechtel]

There were also Ferraris with Chevy engine in South America, but I don´t think you can sum up such private efforts with the activities of the 'works' team.

But Ferrari himself did start his team with Alfa Romeos...

[Peter Morley]

But Ferrari himself did start his team with Alfa Romeos...

And ended up being Fiats!

[jeffbee]

Williams also ran Mecachrome and Supertec engines (essentially rebranded Renault units in the late 90s). However, Jordan had eight engine changes during their years in Formula 1 - Ford, Yamaha, Hart, Peugeot, Mugen Honda, Honda, back to Ford and finally Toyota.

However, longer serving teams such as Arrows (Ford, BMW, Megatron, back to Ford, Mugen Honda, Hart, Yamaha, Arrows (a rebranded Hart V10), Supertec, Asiatech and finally Cosworth); Minardi (Ford, Motori Moderni, Ford again, Ferrari, Lamborghini, another stint with Ford, Hart, Fondmetal, European (the last two being rebranded Cosworth engines), Asiatech and Cosworth); and Ligier (Matra, Ford, Matra again, Ford again, Renault, Megatron, Judd, another stint with Ford, Lamborghini, aa return to Renault and finally Mugen Honda) have had a similar number of changes. In the case of some of these teams, the number of engine suppliers can be increased by taking into account later incarnations of the team.

Didn't Arrows also have the Porsche V12 for a short time?

[Tim Murray]

Yes indeed - for the first half-dozen races of 1991.