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#51 ensign14

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:08

He went for a gap that existed - A quote from frankly one of the best F1 drivers of all time.

Yeah, one who about 0.2 seconds after the events of that quote hit the car in front so hard he pushed it all the way through the sand trap into the tyre wall. The day I get lessons in ethics from St Ayrton is the day I get lessons in music from Kylie Minogue.

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#52 TheUltimateWorrier

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:16

I personally think that you shouldn't be able to win a championship in such a manner

There have been bigger sporting cheats who've won and lost, so this isn't the first nor the last time a lack of sportmanship will occur. I'm not a Bianchi fan, but I hope finishing second doesn't affect his chances of making the F1 grid next year. People are writing him off, but he's consistently challenged for titles in lower formulas much like Mark Webber. He may not end up being a WDC, but he could be a good driver.

It's not like Frijns deliberately wanted to take out Bianchi. Then why did he jink out of the way and give Jules the space he needed to pass in turn 1 to begin with.

You're making assumptions as to what Frijns was thinking at the time. Only Frijns knows what he was thinking pushing Bianchi off. Turn 1 has nothing to do with the incident.

The day I get lessons in ethics from St Ayrton is the day I get lessons in music from Kylie Minogue.

Or Cheryl Cole based on her performance the other day :rotfl: .

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 22 October 2012 - 19:32.


#53 olliek88

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:46

He went for a gap that existed - A quote from frankly one of the best F1 drivers of all time.

It's not like Frijns deliberately wanted to take out Bianchi. Then why did he jink out of the way and give Jules the space he needed to pass in turn 1 to begin with.


About once every two years i put a post on my "blog" (Incomprehensible ramblings), one of them was about that infamous quote - http://f1ramblings.b...lease-dont.html

Ensign14 pretty much hit the nail on the head too.

#54 Rinehart

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 20:18

Yes. Racing. Not preventing other drivers from racing by barging them off.


Racing whereby the slower car pulls to one side and waves the faster one through would be bloody boring.
Barged off - seriously. There was a decent gap and the move was decent enough.
To bad they made contact. I actually wanted Bianchi to win but have to take this one on the chin.

#55 jk

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 20:57

Barged off - seriously. There was a decent gap and the move was decent enough.


No there was not. Frijns ended up on right on the left edge of the track. Where was Bianchi supposed to go? There was no chance at all for him to get around that corner. And leaving your rival in a position where no matter what he does he will be off at the next corner, is not good racing.

#56 ensign14

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 21:18

Racing whereby the slower car pulls to one side and waves the faster one through would be bloody boring.


"If I had to block somebody to win, I didn't do my job. In my mind I didn't win the race because my job is to outrun the other guy. To me, that's winning. The number one thing is it takes talent to out-run the other guy. That's the whole reason we're there--to race and win fairly by showing our talent. Not by blocking. That's my personal opinion. One thing I try to teach young drivers is that, first of all, it doesn't take talent to block. It's easy. Anybody can do it. The talent comes into play by out-running the guy and not having to block."

Rick Mears.

A gentleman.

And a winner.

#57 billm99uk

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 22:15

Mears was mostly an oval racer though, where blocking tends to have err... "consequences" ;)

That said, while I think Frijns is seriously talented, I do think he has a bit of an attitude problem at the moment. I'm not reading too much into the Bianchi incident (which, like previous posters have said,can be looked at different ways) but things he has said through the season. I'd i<i>like</i> to say that might cause him some problems if he got into F1 but, lets face it, both Senna and Schumacher had similar flaws and it hardly ever seemed to cause them any difficulties.

#58 santori

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:54

Good to see the old Verstappen fans back in force.


Reading the Youtube comments, my thoughts were of Verstappen fans and I started to hope that Frijns never reaches F1. Quite unfair to him, of course.

That was bloody awful driving, though.

#59 lustigson

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:21

Good to see the old Verstappen fans back in force.

Interestingly enough, Frijns is from the same province as Verstappen: Limburg.

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#60 wj_gibson

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:02

I'm not sure what Bianchi is complaining about, tbh. It's not like Frijns came from an absolute mile back and rear-ended him. If anything, Frijns's move was closer to Villeneuve's role at Jerez than Schumacher's, surely? Bianchi should have defended the corner IMO.

Edited by wj_gibson, 24 October 2012 - 15:22.


#61 whitevisor

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:24

Looks like RedBull finally have Webber's replacement.

#62 kosmic33

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 14:38

Looks like RedBull finally have Webber's replacement.

I think you'll find that intentionally driving into someone is actually more Vettels style than Webbers

Edited by kosmic33, 24 October 2012 - 14:38.


#63 olliek88

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 15:14

I really hope some onboard footage comes out at some point, i think Robin had one on his car so surely it must be kicking around somewhere? The angle they showed on TV is far from conclusive.



#64 Paul Parker

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 19:38

Yeah, one who about 0.2 seconds after the events of that quote hit the car in front so hard he pushed it all the way through the sand trap into the tyre wall. The day I get lessons in ethics from St Ayrton is the day I get lessons in music from Kylie Minogue.


A thousand recommends.

#65 kpchelsea

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 19:49

Racing whereby the slower car pulls to one side and waves the faster one through would be bloody boring.
Barged off - seriously. There was a decent gap and the move was decent enough.
To bad they made contact. I actually wanted Bianchi to win but have to take this one on the chin.

Bianchi wasn't the slower car though, i would say that given how far back Frijns attempted the manoevre contact was inevitable, also if he hadn't made the attempt straight away after being passed, Bianchi would have been gone and away

#66 phil1993

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 19:52

Looks like RedBull finally have Webber's replacement.


Yes, Webber's replacement was racing in FR3.5 last weekend.

Felix Da Costa. :cool:

#67 olliek88

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 20:04

Except that Frijns was 3rd in his first full season in cars, champion in his 2nd (BMW), 3rd (Renault 2.0) and 4th seasons (Renault 3.5).


Time will tell, Frijns is a very talented driver no doubt, i'm definitely not debating that!

But i do think Nyck will turn out alright, followed his progress for a while, maybe even before he appeared in Tooned  ;) I know karting isn't a completely accurate barometer but his record is unreal, 5th in the eurocup in your rookie season is pretty good i think, espically taking into consideration the quality of the drivers ahead of him.

#68 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 20:17

I know Frijns's actions were not innocent, because he claims it was a 'normal overtaking manouevre', and yet turn 4 at Barcelona is a medium speed corner, you can't generally outbrake someone into a medium speed corner, yet he braked 18 metres later than normal for the corner, which he considered to be 'normal' in an overtake, but that is not normal into a medium speed corner at all. He came from miles back, to overtake at that corner you need to be at least close to overlapping the car in front, which he was no where near being. Sam Bird wasn't born yesterday and he's at least able to call a spade a spade: "I saw it quite clearly. He steered towards Jules in the corner and you can't do that. It's not the first time he's done something like that this year. He needs to learn a lesson, and he's not going to learn it by picking up the championship trophy."

#69 rsaca

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 20:21

Yes, Webber's replacement was racing in FR3.5 last weekend.

Felix Da Costa. :cool:



Can't wait for both of them to go head-at-head at the YTD. They're the most talented prospects, including Sainz Jr., in my opinion.

#70 ensign14

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 20:45

A thousand recommends.

Merci, m'sieu. :)

#71 scheivlak

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 22:47

A thousand recommends.

I kinda like Kylie but that seems a bit over the top :D

#72 Ralliart

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:44

"If I had to block somebody to win, I didn't do my job. In my mind I didn't win the race because my job is to outrun the other guy. To me, that's winning. The number one thing is it takes talent to out-run the other guy. That's the whole reason we're there--to race and win fairly by showing our talent. Not by blocking. That's my personal opinion. One thing I try to teach young drivers is that, first of all, it doesn't take talent to block. It's easy. Anybody can do it. The talent comes into play by out-running the guy and not having to block."

Rick Mears.

A gentleman.

And a winner.

These words should be emblazoned on any sheet of instructions distributed by race officials to drivers at any and every race meeting whatever the class. Senna, on the other hand, considered going for a gap, at Fuji, that, save for a minor miracle, wasn't going to come off, knew it, didn't care, didn't care if he took himself out, his chief opponent for the world title, and the rest of the field, didn't care if anyone or everyone involved was not only out of the race but at great, unexpectedly and unwarranted, risk of their lives, that the fans of the sport he professed to love were cheated, the sport, etc. He was destined to win, designed to win, born to win. He said so. When it came to blocking, at Monaco, he put on a clinic. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I remember Mansell was dominating the race, had to pit for some reason near the end, came out behind Senna, the new leader and game over as Senna blocked like no driver I have ever seen. He and Mansell were battling for the win. I get it. Villeneuve vs Arnoux wasn't a case of blocking (they were going for 2nd, I know) but of trying to win each corner (it seemed to me). Lauda vs Prost at Zandvoort was a case of Lauda trying to position himself in a place where Prost could not get past but would not (I firmly believe) taken out Prost had he been able to get by nor were any signals shown (the marshals didn't consider it blocking). Point being that there was the Senna interpretation and the Mears approach.

#73 Alarcon

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:18

In the four races Lewis Hamilton contested in his first Eurocup season (2002) he was 2nd in points, Vettel was 2nd in German FBMW... etc etc. Way too early to suggest that a driver that finished 5th in the Eurocup is the real deal. In fact I don't even know if Frijns is. Or da Costa for that matter. Bianchi I gave up hope on last year already - Ferrari picked the right horse back in 2009 but he stalled real quick in development after that.

Aside from the 2009 North European 2.0 series, da Costa has won nothing yet. Sure there are a lot of F1-bound drivers out there, but frankly I don't even see where the Hülkenberg's and Di Resta's are right now (i.e. the clear title-winners).



The main difference and that´s an important point is the age.

Seb did his first "rookie season in cars" at the age of 14 years old (always against older people as has been almost all his career) and as you said finished 2nd.
Lewis was 16 years old on his "first rookie season" (and finished on 5th position).
And, if I´m not bad, De Vries is 17 years old, isn´it?

It´s a big difference because we are not the same people with 14 or 15 than when we have 18 years old. y

Edited by Alarcon, 25 October 2012 - 10:20.


#74 KateLM

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:53

Vettel wasn't 14, he was nearly 16 at the start of his first season in cars. And nothing in your post takes into account by far the most important difference - field strength. Eurocup is probably the strongest category at that level and many of the drivers Nyck was racing had a couple of years experience in cars from other categories. Eurocup isn't typically an entry-level series, 5th in his first year of competing in single-seaters is perfectly respectable. Any impression otherwise is just a result of slightly unrealistic expectations after what he did in karting.

#75 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:11

Robin looks like a great prospect, hopefully testing with red bull and sauber (?) at the YDT can open doors for him in the future, would be good fun if he were more impressive than Gutierrez :)


Would be great if Sauber picks him up. The line-up Hulkenberg/Frijns would be possibly what Sauber need for their big break through.


#76 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:20

...Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I remember Mansell was dominating the race, had to pit for some reason near the end, came out behind Senna, the new leader and game over as Senna blocked like no driver I have ever seen....


I guess you refer to Monaco 1993.

Well, in Monaco you do not have to do much to block, and it takes a lot of luck (or rather, a mistake of the opponent) to get ahead of someone by overtaking. So the example is a weak one, there are better examples and you know that ("correct me if I am mistaken").


Also, I do not find anything meaningful in your post concerning Robin Frijns, an outstanding talent, and yes, a possible new great in the vein of Senna, not Prost or Mansell.


Rick Mears - a gentleman and a legend - as ensign14 pointed out. I loved to see him racing. Guess what, that's the spice of the sport, that we have the Mears' and the Graham Hills as well as the Schumachers and the Sennas. If it were only the Mears type of driver, the sport would be less thrilling. It needs different characters.

#77 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:28

Interestingly enough, Frijns is from the same province as Verstappen: Limburg.


It makes a lot of sense, as Limburg born people have an earthy quality, same as people from Brabant (Arie Luyendijk was from Eindhoven, if I am not very much mistaken).

Contrast that with the airy/watery quality of Noord Holland (Jan Lammers, Michael Bleekemolen), Zuid Holland or Friesland, and you know why great racing drivers usually need a touch of solidity ("earthiness") in their make up.

That's not to say I dislike anyone from the Randstad or the north of the Netherlands - I enjoy their straightness and humour, but it tells me a lot that great Dutch drivers usually come from Limburg or Brabant.

And then, Limburg is not that far from Mönchengladbach (HHF) and Kerpen.

Edited by aditya-now, 25 October 2012 - 11:29.


#78 Alarcon

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:45

Vettel wasn't 14, he was nearly 16 at the start of his first season in cars. And nothing in your post takes into account by far the most important difference - field strength. Eurocup is probably the strongest category at that level and many of the drivers Nyck was racing had a couple of years experience in cars from other categories. Eurocup isn't typically an entry-level series, 5th in his first year of competing in single-seaters is perfectly respectable. Any impression otherwise is just a result of slightly unrealistic expectations after what he did in karting.



Sorry I said 14 but it was 15.

Whatever still younger.

#79 taran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:45

That's not to say I dislike anyone from the Randstad or the north of the Netherlands - I enjoy their straightness and humour, but it tells me a lot that great Dutch drivers usually come from Limburg or Brabant.

And then, Limburg is not that far from Mönchengladbach (HHF) and Kerpen.


Yes, that's because Limburg is a criminal province run by a maffia-local politicians network. They always need to launder money and racing has traditionally been a good way. Until the Italian authorities closed their accounting loophole, an entire generation of Italian drivers (and small teams from Osella to Minardi) survived on such dodgy deals. I guess Limburg drivers enjoy that same kind of support to get far in racing.

Back on topic, it seems quite relevant to me that Frijns 'allowed' Bianchi to overtake. Had he wanted to win by eliminating Bianchi, he could (should?) have done so at that point.

It looks to me that Frijns believed he had to overtake Bianchi quickly before he disappeared up the road and saw a gap. And then went for it. It did not seem malicious to me and it seems the stewards feel the same way.


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#80 ensign14

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 13:13

It looks to me that Frijns believed he had to overtake Bianchi quickly before he disappeared up the road and saw a gap. And then went for it. It did not seem malicious to me and it seems the stewards feel the same way.

Er, they disqualified him.

#81 babbel

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 13:25

Er, they disqualified him.


No, 25 seconds was added to his time.

#82 aditya-now

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 13:56

Yes, that's because Limburg is a criminal province run by a maffia-local politicians network. They always need to launder money and racing has traditionally been a good way. Until the Italian authorities closed their accounting loophole, an entire generation of Italian drivers (and small teams from Osella to Minardi) survived on such dodgy deals. I guess Limburg drivers enjoy that same kind of support to get far in racing.

Back on topic, it seems quite relevant to me that Frijns 'allowed' Bianchi to overtake. Had he wanted to win by eliminating Bianchi, he could (should?) have done so at that point.

It looks to me that Frijns believed he had to overtake Bianchi quickly before he disappeared up the road and saw a gap. And then went for it. It did not seem malicious to me and it seems the stewards feel the same way.


Interesting info on Limburg, thanks.

The incident was quite clear cut: Frijns defended himself, got little on the curbs on the right side and then could not control the car fully so was veering/understeering to the left towards Bianchi. Nothing he could do, no malicious intent. A racing incident as both Prost and Hill called it.


#83 kpchelsea

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 14:15

Interesting info on Limburg, thanks.

The incident was quite clear cut: Frijns defended himself, got little on the curbs on the right side and then could not control the car fully so was veering/understeering to the left towards Bianchi. Nothing he could do, no malicious intent. A racing incident as both Prost and Hill called it.

Maybe i need explaining how he would make the corner on a much faster and tighter trajectory than normal without running wide in the first place?

#84 taran

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 14:52

No, 25 seconds was added to his time.


Indeed. I meant they deemed it a racing incident. If they felt it was an out and out foul, I am sure they would have issued a much harsher penalty.

#85 prty

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:13

I think I'm willing to give Frijns the benefit of the doubt in the sense that it looked like a move made out of panic rather than premeditation. Schumi rather than Senna-esque.


How is it better?

#86 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:32

The difference between murder and manslaughter?

#87 KateLM

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:39

Without getting carried away, yes it doesn't seem that Frijns went into the race planning for Bianchi not to finish so it's not quite as bad as it could have been. But if being under pressure causes him to make snap judgements and panic like that then it still raises question marks.

Sorry I said 14 but it was 15.

Whatever still younger.

16 by mid-point of the season so really not that much younger than de Vries is now. And in a less competitive series. When you look at the circumstances Nyck has done fine.

#88 ensign14

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:52

Without getting carried away, yes it doesn't seem that Frijns went into the race planning for Bianchi not to finish so it's not quite as bad as it could have been.

It kind of works both ways. Is it better for Frijns to punt Bianchi out because he meant to in sheer rage at being beaten, or that it happened to be his first reaction to being beaten?

It's the assassin vs the psychopath. Personally I think it's better for both to be kept away from things.

#89 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:56

I think it was just a messy panic move.

#90 prty

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 15:58

The difference between murder and manslaughter?


No, not really. In racing, every driver will go into panic situations frequently.
So if he goes racing with his default mode being running people out in those situations, and you know that there will be situations like those in his career, the difference between your "murder" and "manslaughter" is not so clear.

#91 Dolph

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 16:01

These words should be emblazoned on any sheet of instructions distributed by race officials to drivers at any and every race meeting whatever the class. Senna, on the other hand, considered going for a gap, at Fuji, that, save for a minor miracle, wasn't going to come off, knew it, didn't care, didn't care if he took himself out, his chief opponent for the world title, and the rest of the field, didn't care if anyone or everyone involved was not only out of the race but at great, unexpectedly and unwarranted, risk of their lives, that the fans of the sport he professed to love were cheated, the sport, etc. He was destined to win, designed to win, born to win. He said so. When it came to blocking, at Monaco, he put on a clinic. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I remember Mansell was dominating the race, had to pit for some reason near the end, came out behind Senna, the new leader and game over as Senna blocked like no driver I have ever seen. He and Mansell were battling for the win. I get it. Villeneuve vs Arnoux wasn't a case of blocking (they were going for 2nd, I know) but of trying to win each corner (it seemed to me). Lauda vs Prost at Zandvoort was a case of Lauda trying to position himself in a place where Prost could not get past but would not (I firmly believe) taken out Prost had he been able to get by nor were any signals shown (the marshals didn't consider it blocking). Point being that there was the Senna interpretation and the Mears approach.


No, not Fuji

#92 wj_gibson

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 16:08

Mears' words are only meaningful if drivers have equal machinery, surely?

At Monaco in '92, the fresh-tyred, active Williams of Mansell was at least 1.5 secs a lap faster than Senna's worn-tyred, non-active McLaren. Should he have just kept the normal line and shrugged "after you, Claude" when Mansell swept past? Of course not.

#93 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 16:15

No, not really. In racing, every driver will go into panic situations frequently.
So if he goes racing with his default mode being running people out in those situations, and you know that there will be situations like those in his career, the difference between your "murder" and "manslaughter" is not so clear.


No I'm not saying he panics and then tries to take people out. I'm saying he panicked and made a move that had a next-to-nothing chance of suceeding, and the result was Bianchi was taken out. I think he was genuinely trying to pass him or more likely defending from Magnussen. I don't think his intention at any point was to hit Bianchi.

#94 Risil

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 16:48

I think it was just a messy panic move.


Yeah, closest fit's probably Capirossi in the 250cc finale in 1998. Unless someone has a good car racing example of the same thing.

I don't think comparing the move to Schumacher or Senna, just because it was CHAMPIONSHIP CONTROVERSY, gets us anywhere. "Causing an avoidable accident" is a different matter to "intending to cause an accident".

And in general, you don't want to send out the message that racing for position -- which will always carry the risk of one driver taking the other off the road -- is unacceptable when there's a championship on the line. You'd hope they'd race cleanly, but that's incredibly difficult to do with modern wings-and-slicks single-seaters, especially at somewhere like Barcelona. You're not going to get Hill vs. Hopkins, or even Power vs. Hunter-Reay, in this situation.

Burden of proof for taking someone's championship away should be closer to "beyond reasonable doubt" than "balance of probabilities", too. Not having seen the onboards, I there doesn't seem to be a Schumacher/Villeneuve-style smoking gun here. Certainly Frijns maintains (paywall) that his telemetry backs him up when he says he was trying to make the corner.

Anyway, didn't something a bit similar to this happen last year?

Edited by Risil, 25 October 2012 - 16:55.


#95 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 17:27

It kind of works both ways. Is it better for Frijns to punt Bianchi out because he meant to in sheer rage at being beaten, or that it happened to be his first reaction to being beaten?

It's the assassin vs the psychopath. Personally I think it's better for both to be kept away from things.

Why does it have to be one of those two things? You sound seriously bitter about this for some reason. A year long ban? Come on man, that would destroy his career. He's obviously talented and no driver goes through their time racing without making a few boneheaded moves in desperate situations. It was the last race of the season and the title was on the line. To me, this sort of thing is more excusable than the majority of these similar sorts of boneheaded mistakes people make earlier in the season with less at stake, especially when Frijns seemed like he was trying to defend from behind first and foremost. Bianchi is certainly no stranger to head-scratching overtaking attempts after all. At least Frijns has a decent excuse for his.

Edited by Seanspeed, 25 October 2012 - 17:29.


#96 Disgrace

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 18:14

No I'm not saying he panics and then tries to take people out. I'm saying he panicked and made a move that had a next-to-nothing chance of suceeding, and the result was Bianchi was taken out. I think he was genuinely trying to pass him or more likely defending from Magnussen. I don't think his intention at any point was to hit Bianchi.


This is the difference for me.

#97 Jackman

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 18:34

Bianchi is certainly no stranger to head-scratching overtaking attempts after all. At least Frijns has a decent excuse for his.

Yeah, given the number of drivers Bianchi has taken out over the years with bone-headed moves, it's actually quite ironic.

#98 ensign14

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 18:37

Why does it have to be one of those two things? You sound seriously bitter about this for some reason.

I have a prejudice against drivers who cheat to win titles. It's happened twice this season. If it happens a third, the BB will melt.

#99 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 19:05

I see bad driving but not cheating.

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#100 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 19:19

I have a prejudice against drivers who cheat to win titles. It's happened twice this season. If it happens a third, the BB will melt.

I see nobody here coming close to melting except you. Calling this cheating is really an extreme view, and one that implies there was intent on Frijn's part to take out Bianchi.