3397 replies to this topic

[DrF]

Massa should go back to Sauber for a year, win some high profile races and apply for a seat at Mclaren.

Worked for Perez...

[Zava]

Can we just skip the EVIL PAY DRIVERS bitching for a while? Believe it or not, a decent driver with a ton of money is often a smarter move for a team than a great driver with no cash at all. Sure, in a just and fair world Nico Hulkenberg would have more cash than Max Chilton, but if this was a just and fair world squabbles over race seats for F1 drivers would be pretty far down God's To Do list. And let's try and remember that being poor doesn't mean you're great. Some of the people on this board would have you believe an empty wallet is the first requirement to be a decent racing driver.

 

Here we see an F1 grid with drivers bringing personal cash, family money, and/or corporate sponsorship to their team:

 

[picture]

 

Here we see that same grid when this influx of cash is removed, and all drivers are banned unless they are racing purely on merit:

 

[picture]

 

 

Fortunately, the 18 extra garage spaces in the paddock provide ample room for the two remaining teams to argue over which of them is the richest and purest left.

why is Alonso on the second picture? 

[lustigson]

I updated the list with most of your additions. Thanks!

[Jon83]

Of course not and that's because I posted the link. It looks like she is the only one who thinks differently. 

 

To be fair, she is always going to say that (publically at least)

[KWSN - DSM]

All drivers are 'pay drivers', they bring a huge portfolio which will be with them where ever they go, they pay with their inheritance from their aunt, they pay with their fiancee's dads money, they pay with what they scrimped and saved from a paper route. Some drivers get to a point where this is no longer a consideration, they will get a seat regardless and the sponsors will flock to their new team because of them, which is where they are still 'pay drivers', just not something they need to spend energy on.

 

Any driver making it to F1, through any means are an accomplished race car driver, and are there because he / she have the potential to be great. This does not happen to all, and often everyone can see that he / she is not the second coming of 'name WDC of choice'.

 

Is it not part of F1 lore that Lauda had done nothing before F1, and he funded his first seat with borrowed money? Personally I have always found that a somewhat mythical story, but he did not have a great pedigree coming in to the sport, misgivings as I may have about fast forwarding Sirotkin at too young an age he may still turn out to be something very special.

 

[sopa]

^

so Rosberg,Hamilton are pay drivers....

 

Who knows if world economy gets worse, we may get there, where top drivers need to bring money as well. Don't IndyCar drivers have personal sponsors they carry with him and need to have in securing a race seat?

 

Or alternatively Mercedes pulls out of F1 and new cash-strapped owner needs paydrivers, so demand Rosberg and Hamilton to participate in fundraising.

[Gilles4Ever]

Before it goes any further, this is not the thread for discussing what constitutes a pay driver, it's been done, find the thread.

[Gilles4Ever]

Paul Di Resta's manager worried about driver's F1 future at Force India
http://www.theguardi...ndia?CMP=twt_gu

[Schuttelberg]

Paul Di Resta's manager worried about driver's F1 future at Force India
http://www.theguardi...ndia?CMP=twt_gu

 

Oh, how delighted would I be if he doesn't drive for Force India next season. I'll feel bad if he doesn't get a drive anywhere because although he has a lousy mouth, he still deserves his place on the grid on pure ability. Just not in the team I like!

[Group B]

Oh, how delighted would I be if he doesn't drive for Force India next season. I'll feel bad if he doesn't get a drive anywhere because although he has a lousy mouth, he still deserves his place on the grid on pure ability. Just not in the team I like!

 

Yeah, I'd like him to stay, but right at the back with Chlton or some similar donkey. It will settle his gigantic ego down to realise he's not actually the most in-demand driver F1 has ever seen.

[RosannaG]

Oh, how delighted would I be if he doesn't drive for Force India next season. I'll feel bad if he doesn't get a drive anywhere because although he has a lousy mouth, he still deserves his place on the grid on pure ability. Just not in the team I like!

 

Yeah, I'd like him to stay, but right at the back with Chlton or some similar donkey. It will settle his gigantic ego down to realise he's not actually the most in-demand driver F1 has ever seen.

 

Me too, I wouldn't mind if he stays and I don't want to be mean, but he is so arrogant that if he leaves, I won't miss him. 

 

I wish him the best though. 

[artista]

Going back to the rumours about Williams, Maldonado and PDVSA, Livio Oricchio wrote yesterday an article saying Williams and PDVSA are negotiating to brake the deal they have.

According to it, if they reach an agreement, PDVSA would still have to pay Williams another year (instead of two), but without choosing driver, which would mean Maldonado could move (and/or would have to move) somewhere else

http://www.estadao.c...s,1086826,0.htm

[NexusIcon]

Paul Di Resta's manager worried about driver's F1 future at Force India
http://www.theguardi...ndia?CMP=twt_gu

I'm not sure the little pop at the team, in the last paragraph, was wise. It sounds like something Paul would say himself.

[nomi]

Well Di Resta has not lived up to his massive hype. If he's such a great talent he would have adapted to the Pirelli tyres better than others which he has failed to do.

 

The guy has no personality and character is exciting as a carrot.

[HistoryFan]

If PDVSA will join Lotus, will it be the end of Total and Grosjean at Lotus?

[William Hunt]

No, Total is not sponsoring Lotus because of Grosjean. Grosjean is there because he is a Gravity driver. Gravity is owend by Genii and Genii owns Lotus. + Total was sponsoring Lotus / Renault before Grosjean was there! + Why would they get rid of a driver performing as great as Grosjean recently has?

Edited by William Hunt, 18 October 2013 - 09:27.

[noikeee]

If Toto with his share have been able to be the one placing Bottas in a race seat, why would a new owner of the same portfolio not have the same power? I agree that I do not see anything in Bottas, which a multitude of other drivers could / have shown. Williams had Hulkenberg and let him go, time may prove otherwise but seems that Williams again let a better driver go for the wrong reasons. 

 

I was quite annoyed then when Hulk lost his seat at Williams to a team-mate he beat in GP2 (Maldonado), but I think the jury's still out on Bottas and your comparison to Hulk is flawed. It's hard to remember now, but apart from Hulk's pole in Interlagos his first season in F1 was a bit of a slow start, as he was very often behind Barrichello. Bottas has been beating Maldonado more often than Hulk beat Barrichello that year - okay Barrichello is the better benchmark, but still. Hulk has since developed immensely and matured into one of the sport's best drivers (certainly at least in the grid's top 8), there are absolutely no guarantees Bottas will do the same but it's early days to discount him as a future star.

 

I think if the Williams was a tad more competitive and capable of running where the Sauber is, for example, a lot of people would have a different opinion on Bottas. He's not done enough for me to scream "world champion", true, but give him time. Remember there's no testing, rookies take a long while to settle these days and not all develop at the same time... for example Chilton and Gutierrez lately have been moving their performance level from catastrophic to decent-ish. Who knows if Bottas may (or may not) have a jump in performance in the next few GPs or next season?

Edited by noikeee, 18 October 2013 - 09:30.

[SenorSjon]

...He hasn't produced the results he would want to produce, but overall it is the team under-delivering on what it should have delivered. ...

 

It is the teams fault he crashes out in races?

 

The rumours around Maldonado are gaining momentum. It seems they want to break the remainig two years PVDSA to one year and free to place Maldo somewhere else. Also Williams then has the free choice in drivers. If the Boekhorn connection shines through, I expect a Massa - vdG line-up at Williams. Bottas isn't exactly turning any heads.

 

Maldo could end up at Lotus, FI or Sauber with the PVDSA cash. Caterham and Marussia are slower, so no sense buying out a contract and then racing behind the said Williams. And Total is paying around 12m for a French driver. They were threatening to end sponsorship when Grosjean was under fire last year and could lose his place. The option on his contract is still not lifted.

 

Edit

Hulkenberg was very fast in classes like A1GP.

Edited by SenorSjon, 18 October 2013 - 09:32.

[noikeee]

Edit

Hulkenberg was very fast in classes like A1GP.

 

Oh absolutely. Hulk was nearly flawless in all the junior series, I only remember a couple of slow GPs at the beginning of his one and only GP2 season, apart from that he has pretty much the best junior series CV in all of the F1 grid, together with Hamilton.

 

I was just remembering that when he first arrived to F1 it took him a pretty long while to confirm that potential.

[LuckyStrike1]

I think Hulkenberg has shown an enormous talent and potential all through the junior ranks and up to and including F1. 

 

His CV pre-F1 is mighty impressive. Unfortunately he just hasn't gotten a real chance to get going in F1 but whenever the circumstances has permitted he's delivered. 

 

For me he should be in a top seat in F1, I honestly believe this is a WDC in waiting. 

[sopa]

Interesting.

When Williams is not delivering, PDVSA and Maldonado try to flex their muscles to get out of the contract.

When Maldonado was not delivering last year in a very good car, Williams could do nothing, but shut up and deal with it.

 

Shows that those, who pay for the game, have the power.

[Jon83]

I'm not sure the little pop at the team, in the last paragraph, was wise. It sounds like something Paul would say himself.

 

Agreed.

 

I suppose Di-Resta's retirements, due to his own mistakes, were in some way the team's fault as well.

[danmills]

http://www.motorspor...door-for-massa/

 

Thought this rumour was churning months ago and a rumour long before Kimi was ever leaving that Maldonado may be heading to Lotus.

 

Would it be a massive step back if Lotus take him on? I quite like the idea, just to see Maldonado in a faster car...

 

So Massa to Williams, Maldonado to save Lotus' money issues and Hulk.... where?

 

Madness.

 

Seems the Suzuka incident with Bottas has made him fall further foul with Williams. Would be wonderful to see a feisty guy in a nippy car than someone too conservative.

 

But a Grosjean/Maldonado pairing... jesus almighty.

 

Not sure the PDVSA vs Total conflict would allow it. And with Renault rumoured to be wanting more as a possible works team, that leaves Grosjeans spot more solid.

Edited by danmills, 18 October 2013 - 10:37.

[SenorSjon]

Maybe that is why Hulkenberg 'deal' is not made public?

[Sanman59]

 

Maybe that is why Hulkenberg 'deal' is not made public?

Yeah,it seems that negotiations are indeed underway for PDVSA to buy their way out of the Williams deal.

Now looking very much like Maldonado will go to Lotus; Hulkenberg to Force India and Massa to Williams with Geido coming in too in order to help fill the gap somewhat!

Shame for Bottas but looks like 3rd driver again for him.

[noikeee]

Maybe that is why Hulkenberg 'deal' is not made public?

 

Could be. They may have Hulk's deal lined up on paper, but meanwhile the chance of grabbing Maldonado's mega-bucks is starting to look feasible as PDVSA negotiate with Williams, and it becomes hard for Lotus to resist that when under a period of financial distress - even if they have guarantees in place to be able to afford a season with a Grosjean/Hulk pairing.

[seahawk]

I wonder how PDVSA and Total on the same car should work?

[Anderis]

Maldonado's backers don't have to promote PDVSA through potential deal with Lotus. Don't forget there are also "Venezuela tourism" adverts on Williams. They may go more that way if they want.

 

Also it happened in the bast that both Petrobras and Castrol were sponsoring Williams, so anything can happen.

[Sanman59]

Seems as though Max Chilton could well be losing his place?

http://grandprix247....or-2014-season/

[SenorSjon]

His dad bought into the team right? Odd move. McLaren is paying more than a rich kid's dad?

 

@Anderis, correct. It could be that Grosjean has red Total markings and Maldo blue(?) PVDSA markings. Would help to recognize cars better though. At the first corner it could be hard to distinguish which Lotus is blitzing through or 'over' the field.

 

Some wild mumblings

 

Williams

Massa

GvdG

 

McLaren

Alonso/Button

Perez is out. When Alonso stays, they put SomeOtherGuy in the car. Perhaps Vandoorne?

 

Ferrari

Kimi

Alonso/Hulkenberg

There is something brewing in Italy.

 

Lotus

Grosjean/Maldonado/Hulkenberg

Grosjeans contract is still not signed... 2 of above 3 will go there.

 

FI

Not a clue, both current drivers are not so sure of their position, DiResta more than Sutil. I think both are interchangable.

 

Sauber

Sirotkin

Massa?

 

Caterham

Kovalainen? Don't know why, he is not impressing me after all those years.

Pic

 

Marussia

Bianchi

Chilton/Magnussen. Still an odd move. Chilton brings cash.

Edited by SenorSjon, 18 October 2013 - 13:24.

[SteF1an]

Grosjean will have to wait a bit longer for his contract to be sorted! 

 

Boullier: "Romain already has a contract with us for next year, but it is not a fixed contract – Lotus has to take the option or not. We have to do it in a few days' time, so we will see."

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/110698

 

 

 

Hülkenberg and Maldonado at Lotus??? 

[SealTheDiffuser]

Grosjean will have to wait a bit longer for his contract to be sorted! 

 

Boullier: "Romain already has a contract with us for next year, but it is not a fixed contract – Lotus has to take the option or not. We have to do it in a few days' time, so we will see."

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/110698

 

 

 

Hülkenberg and Maldonado at Lotus??? 

 

Mmm... the  Williams of 2011and 2013 were really ****, but maybe the 2014 is a good machine... I pesonally would not want to trade a Mercedes Powertrain against a Renault one, also the Lotus F1 Team had to let a lot of good people leave to other teams... So I would not be so excited about a Lotus 2014 seat. The Ferrari Teams are not an option, because of the  (rumored) weak/inefficient 2014 powertrain, so as Maldo I would stay at Williams or go to McLaren or Findia(they build good cars on a budget).

I really would have loved the idea of Maldonado in the second Red Bull, that would have been shockinly entertaining for all audiences.

[sheogorath]

I was quite annoyed then when Hulk lost his seat at Williams to a team-mate he beat in GP2 (Maldonado), but I think the jury's still out on Bottas and your comparison to Hulk is flawed. It's hard to remember now, but apart from Hulk's pole in Interlagos his first season in F1 was a bit of a slow start, as he was very often behind Barrichello. Bottas has been beating Maldonado more often than Hulk beat Barrichello that year - okay Barrichello is the better benchmark, but still. Hulk has since developed immensely and matured into one of the sport's best drivers (certainly at least in the grid's top 8), there are absolutely no guarantees Bottas will do the same but it's early days to discount him as a future star.

 

I think if the Williams was a tad more competitive and capable of running where the Sauber is, for example, a lot of people would have a different opinion on Bottas. He's not done enough for me to scream "world champion", true, but give him time. Remember there's no testing, rookies take a long while to settle these days and not all develop at the same time... for example Chilton and Gutierrez lately have been moving their performance level from catastrophic to decent-ish. Who knows if Bottas may (or may not) have a jump in performance in the next few GPs or next season?

 

 

To be honest, Bottas looks like another Kovalainen, consistent and kinda fast but nothing to write home about while Maldo has sucked in qualy, he has been closer to the points in far more occassions than Bottas.

 

Also, I'm quite suspect about the whole Hulk-Maldo season, particularly the timing of the changes in form. But yeah, we all know he is a massive hothead prone to ****ing up but maybe if he gets the same type of mentoring Grosjean got at Lotus to control his emotions, good things might happen.

[purplehaireddolphin]

What I don't understand is when a contract is signed, why the announcement isn't made. Like Button, he's already said that he's there next year, but Mclaren won't announce it and keep saying that they'll announce their drivers when they're ready. Just tell us he's signed and stop messing about

[MustangSally]

Maldonado's backers don't have to promote PDVSA through potential deal with Lotus. Don't forget there are also "Venezuela tourism" adverts on Williams. They may go more that way if they want.
 
Also it happened in the bast that both Petrobras and Castrol were sponsoring Williams, so anything can happen.

Yes, it depends entirely upon the Maldonado buyout from Williams. Next year's Williams may still carry PDVSA livery without Maldonado, or it may not. PDVSA want to reduce their payment to Williams for the (now) final year . . . but presumably it will be necessary for Maldonado to take some kind of cash to a new team in the first year. To take Venezuela tourism would be a good down-payment.

I think PDVSA has to be very careful in this negotiations. If they appear to shaft/short-change Williams then they and Maldo become less attractive to other teams. I don't believe Maldo is attractive to any team without his megadosh.

[sheogorath]

PDVSA and Total have a joint venture in several oil wells, so them working together is not unheard of.

 

http://www.bnamerica...,A,-Petrocedeno

 

Oil company that produces 200 thousand barrels daily of heavy crude (originating from Faja del Orinoco, Venezuela), and upgrades 180Mb/d of Zuata Sweet, a light, sweet crude. During this upgrading process it obtains 900 tons of sulfur daily and 6,000 tons of coke. Petrocedeño, ex-Sincor, is controlled by PDVSA, Total and Statoil.

[Jvr]

Nothing really new here but AMuS Michael Schmidt seems to still continue Alonso to McLaren story today. I suppose the news is that this really is not news but they still think it is worth continuing to keep the story alive.

http://www.auto-moto...ln-7789883.html

[KWSN - DSM]

Not sure of the substance in this one. Magnussen to Marrussia, and supposedly McLaren have offered Euro 8 million to Force India to take Kevin? I would love for this to happen, but.... does this really ring true?

 

http://www.newsonf1...._successor.html

 

[Viryfan]

Big money troubles coming for Maldonado

 

http://motorsport.ne...acee,68058.html

[KWSN - DSM]

Big money troubles coming for Maldonado

 

http://motorsport.ne...acee,68058.html

 

Interesting.

 

[Viryfan]

Prosecutors in Venezuela are investigating members of its national motorsports teams for possible currency violations, officials said on Thursday, and the sports minister said tens of millions of dollars were claimed by people forging her signature.

A decade of currency controls has led to a shortage of dollars at the official rate of 6.3 bolivars, and huge profits for those who can access greenbacks and then resell them on the black market for about seven times that price.

Travelers can exchange up to $3,000 a year by applying to the state currency board Cadivi at the 6.3 rate, and members of national sports teams representing the country abroad have been allowed to claim more.

Some are now accused of making dozens of fraudulent requests for dollars, and then offloading a portion on the black market.

In a brief statement, the attorney-general's office said investigators from Cadivi and national intelligence agency Sebin were collecting "items of criminal interest" including documents and official seals from the Sports Ministry.

In an interview published on Thursday by local newspaper Ultimas Noticias, Sports Minister Alejandra Benitez said she discovered from a state bank that her signature had been forged on more than 60 fraudulent requests for dollars.

The fraudulent documents, she said, almost all involved motorsports and had initially escaped close scrutiny because of the high costs involved in competing.

"There was just one racer who, in a year and half, was approved for $66 million," Benitez told the paper. "Just two of these drivers were claiming in a year what it costs us to take the whole team of more than 600 athletes (to an event)."

She said she did not want to name the individuals involved because she wanted to respect them as fellow sportspeople.

"The case is in the hands of the security forces," said Benitez, a 33-year-old former Olympian fencer who was named as minister earlier this year. "If any official (from the ministry) is involved, they will have to pay."

Public anger over the latest allegations is fueled by the impression that well-connected individuals were able to use their position to profit from access to lucrative dollars.

Ordinary travelers now face random checks by officials at Venezuela's main international airport to see if their documents match their requests for Cadivi dollars.

Driven by black market profits, "currency tourism" has become yet another headache for the government of President Nicolas Maduro. The economy is beset by shortages of consumer goods, and annual inflation hit almost 50 percent last month.

 

http://www.reuters.c...E99H03220131018

 

It smells very bad for Pastor Maldonado.

Edited by Viryfan, 18 October 2013 - 20:39.

[V3TT3L]

It changes nothing for WilliamsF1.

PDVSA is a transnational company with revenues and assets abroad.

International contracts must be respected irrespective of local punishments.

WilliamsF1 signed the deal with goodwill.

[Viryfan]

Would the venezuelian government allow PDVSA to sign an other cotract with Lotus with this situation?

[V3TT3L]

Would the venezuelian government allow PDVSA to sign an other cotract with Lotus with this situation?

Even better, let PDVSA with WilliamsF1 for more two years.

[ANF]

Big money troubles coming for Maldonado

 

http://motorsport.ne...acee,68058.html

Is there a translation? What does it say? That the Venezuelan government will spend all the Maldonado money on toilet paper production?

[ANF]

Oh, there was a translation! Sorry, Viryfan.

[V3TT3L]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24587180

Paul Di Resta 'on the minds' of top teams, says Eddie Jordan

[midgrid]

That headline is an insanely optimistic spin on the content of the article, which is basically:

 

- LdM talked to EJ an unspecified period of time ago, mentioning three or four drivers (in what context?) of whom Di Resta was one (so with the race seats lined up, he could perhaps possibly be in contention for a testing role?).

 

- Force India have an option on Di Resta but have yet to take it up.  The article implies that a potential line-up of Hulkenberg and Sutil is likely, with no mention of other recent rumours such as Magnussen or Chilton heading there.

 

- McLaren is "a wild possibility" as Pérez's position is not secure.

 

- ' "What he has in abundance is speed - he then has talent," Jordan told BBC Radio Scotland.'   This is the funniest F1-related thing I've read for a while, not because it's in any way untrue, but just because needing to say it should be redundant at this level, and the wording is amusing.

 

To clarify my own position, I think that Di Resta deserves a place on the grid and it's quite likely that he will stay at Force India, but I can't help but find this article amusing, as it typifies the Di Resta hype that other people have complained about.

[Andrew Hope]

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/24587180

Paul Di Resta 'on the minds' of top teams, says Eddie Jordan

 

 

Yeah, when they're laying in bed and can't fall asleep.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 18 October 2013 - 21:48.

[sheogorath]

 

Prosecutors in Venezuela are investigating members of its national motorsports teams for possible currency violations, officials said on Thursday, and the sports minister said tens of millions of dollars were claimed by people forging her signature.

A decade of currency controls has led to a shortage of dollars at the official rate of 6.3 bolivars, and huge profits for those who can access greenbacks and then resell them on the black market for about seven times that price.

Travelers can exchange up to $3,000 a year by applying to the state currency board Cadivi at the 6.3 rate, and members of national sports teams representing the country abroad have been allowed to claim more.

Some are now accused of making dozens of fraudulent requests for dollars, and then offloading a portion on the black market.

In a brief statement, the attorney-general's office said investigators from Cadivi and national intelligence agency Sebin were collecting "items of criminal interest" including documents and official seals from the Sports Ministry.

In an interview published on Thursday by local newspaper Ultimas Noticias, Sports Minister Alejandra Benitez said she discovered from a state bank that her signature had been forged on more than 60 fraudulent requests for dollars.

The fraudulent documents, she said, almost all involved motorsports and had initially escaped close scrutiny because of the high costs involved in competing.

"There was just one racer who, in a year and half, was approved for $66 million," Benitez told the paper. "Just two of these drivers were claiming in a year what it costs us to take the whole team of more than 600 athletes (to an event)."

She said she did not want to name the individuals involved because she wanted to respect them as fellow sportspeople.

"The case is in the hands of the security forces," said Benitez, a 33-year-old former Olympian fencer who was named as minister earlier this year. "If any official (from the ministry) is involved, they will have to pay."

Public anger over the latest allegations is fueled by the impression that well-connected individuals were able to use their position to profit from access to lucrative dollars.

Ordinary travelers now face random checks by officials at Venezuela's main international airport to see if their documents match their requests for Cadivi dollars.

Driven by black market profits, "currency tourism" has become yet another headache for the government of President Nicolas Maduro. The economy is beset by shortages of consumer goods, and annual inflation hit almost 50 percent last month.

 

http://www.reuters.c...E99H03220131018

 

It smells very bad for Pastor Maldonado.

 

 

Maldonado has nothing to do with the Sports Ministry. His only sponsors in F1 are PDVSA and Venezuelan Tourism. Most of the issues are related to those who race in the US.

 

Also Johnny Cecotto Jr. is sponsored by the Sports Ministry, so it could be him as well.