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2014 Silly Season [merged]


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#801 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 21:53

I would LOVE to see Kobayashi at Ferrari, I just do not see it happening.

:cool:

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#802 Mally11

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 22:27

2014 Driver Line Up Prediction for teams that may change:


Red Bull:
Vettel
Raikkonen

Ferrari:
Alonso
Di Resta

Lotus:
Grosjean
Hulkenbeg

Torro Rosso:
Ricciardo
Da Costa

Sauber:
(Hopefully some talented drivers)
A new Raikkonen or Vettel when they first emerged.





#803 fisssssi

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 22:31

Ferrari:
Alonso
Di Resta

Oh god, please no. I can't think of anyone less suitable for the seat Ferrari that Di Resta.

#804 charly0418

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 04:17

I often see this but this logic is flawed. JB outscored Lewis in one season, Massa outscored Kimi in one season, Rubens outscored JB in one season, Nick outscored Kubica some seasons, etc etc.

Also Kobayashi suffered alot of misfortunes and team's blunders, and didnt have any luck, while Perez suffer from such far less and was simply pure lucky as many as 3 times in one season. There're quite detailed explanations about it in those past Sauber threads.

Not refering to you, but it's quite funny that same people who say Kobayashi is nothing special coz he wasnt much better than de la Rosa (actually Kamui was alot better in race but the fact is always ignored somehow ) and was outscored by or on par with Perez in turn give unconditional praise for Hulk and Bianchi (the former was utterly unimpressive and all over the place and comprehensively beaten by Rubens in his 1st season, outscored Di Resta but with similar margin as Sutil who was well beaten by Fisi who was comprehensively beaten by Alonso, and the latter beating mere Chilton who was predicted to do poorly).


I still think Koba was a disaster at the end of 2012, Perez was beating him in quallys consistently on the final races

http://grandprixrank...rsus-kobayashi/

Anyways, he still has a tough road back to F1, doesnt look good

Edited by charly0418, 04 August 2013 - 04:19.


#805 noikeee

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 13:09

I know that points scoring isn't the end of everything. And I understand the argument for Kobayashi having done slightly better than Pérez, although I don't really agree with it (even if on average Kamui did better and Pérez's highs were flattered by good strategies, Pérez's highs were much higher than Kamui's and I saw that as Pérez having more potential). My point is simple, even assuming a reading of results flattering to Kamui, if Pérez wasn't good enough they can't possibly rate him much higher.

Kamui back to F1 isn't impossible (if still unlikely), but going straight to Ferrari is a wild dream.

#806 muramasa

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 16:44

I still think Koba was a disaster at the end of 2012, Perez was beating him in quallys consistently on the final races

http://grandprixrank...rsus-kobayashi/

Anyways, he still has a tough road back to F1, doesnt look good

Well, some might say Kobayashi is the only Sauber driver who scored the last 6 races.  ;)

Also he suffered telemetry blackout in Inida Q2, affected badly by yellow flag on his final Q attack in Korea (so was Perez but Kamui got affected more), besides, USA, Brazil, Abu Dhabi, Sauber had severe tyre heating issue in Quali so comparing pace b/w drivers is quite pointless.

Actually Kobayashi performed brilliant despite under immense pressure in closing stage of 2012. He was fantastic in Japan, kept it together well at Abu Dhabi despite having KERS and brake issues, performed excellent in Brazil.


I know that points scoring isn't the end of everything. And I understand the argument for Kobayashi having done slightly better than Pérez, although I don't really agree with it (even if on average Kamui did better and Pérez's highs were flattered by good strategies, Pérez's highs were much higher than Kamui's and I saw that as Pérez having more potential).

None of Perez's podiums were possible without being the only driver on odd strategy. He performed brilliant and maximized it of course, but being on the odd strategy itself is purely luck.
Kobayashi was equally impressive too on as many occasions, eg Spain, he had to start from lower grid due to oil leak on his flying lap in Q2, then during the race the team kept releasing him behind cars he overtook or shouldve comfortably undercut by slow pitstop, due to which he had to overtake on the track but Sauber car had poor traction and top speed so that even DRS isnt effective at all in that long straight, hence he had to take risk in overtaking in other part of track which he maneuvered brilliantly. In Germany as well, the team gave him very slow pitstops but he overtook and cleared slower cars in critical moments and finished 4th. In Japan, how he controlled the pace against Button is, i think simply fantastic, he controlled pace in a way JB use up tyre so suffers from traction and negate DRS advantage, sth like that. In Brazil his performance was praiseworthy.

My point is simple, even assuming a reading of results flattering to Kamui, if Pérez wasn't good enough they can't possibly rate him much higher.

We cant tell how much they rated Perez. Perez signed Mclaren in very early stage of the season while possibly they were still undecided over 2013 lineup.
Also Massa obviously have been very poor over several years, but it's no secret that they keep him thanks largely to business matter. If Massa was Japanese without no significant sponsor/business ties, most likely he wouldnt have seen the end of 2010.

Kamui back to F1 isn't impossible (if still unlikely), but going straight to Ferrari is a wild dream.

You can say that if Kamui said so, but it's not me, but Kamui himself who said that he chose Ferrari GT role because he would still be close to and connected to F1 in general, not (just) Ferrari, for any 2014 possibilities, so it's more than apparent that Ferrari isnt his prime target in the first place. Also he acknoledges difficulty.


#807 Shiroo

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 16:46

I still believe it is just a storm in tea cup. It will end with Kimi in Lotus, Alonso in Ferrar, Vettel in RBR alongside Ricciardo

#808 wift

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 17:05

I still believe it is just a storm in tea cup. It will end with Kimi in Lotus, Alonso in Ferrar, Vettel in RBR alongside Ricciardo


Well, that's the most likely scenario if you look at the rumours going on right now... But things can change fast, and one thing may lead to another, domino effect kind of situation... So let's see what happens :lol:

But I don't see there's a chance of Alonso leaving Ferrari. And I also think that the Kimi to Ferrari rumours is complete BS. What I still think is unresolved is the Raikkonen RBR deal. It seems there has been talks between Red Bull and Kimi but nothing is decided. It also seems that Red Bull is warming up to Ricciardo (maybe Raikkonen is asking too much or just taking too much time to make a decision according to RBR?)... So I think Kimi has to make the decision pretty soon: his options are disappearing as we speak.

#809 sopa

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 18:36

Muramasa, all the time you talk about Kobayashi's unluck, but don't care about Perez unluck. I remember in 2012 Perez started from the back of the grid or from P16 on several occasions due to unluck. At Monaco Maldonado ran him even off, so starting from the back meant his weekend was instantly ruined.

Overall there is little between Perez and Kobayashi, but if pushed and I had to take one of them into my team I would have taken Perez like McLaren did.

#810 BrawnGeePee

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:38

At Monaco Maldonado ran him even off, so starting from the back meant his weekend was instantly ruined.

that monaco 2012: kobayashi also got his race ruined out of his hands and became a victim too, thanks to a certain romain grosjean~
Posted Image
You guys keep comparing each of the drivers unluckiness, yet sergio now seems lucky in a cozy mclaren, while kamui is in a...uhm...ferrari :rotfl: (not in f1 though :well: )


#811 SenorSjon

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 10:20

My guess
Ricciardo to Red Bull, Kimi to Ferrari.

Red Bull doesn't even pay Vettel a whole lot, so why shell out the cash for other drivers with less titles. The amounts in the rumour circuit are quite high, so I don't believe them. Kimi just wants to get paid, he isn't sure of that at Lotus.

#812 F1ultimate

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 10:24

My guess
Ricciardo to Red Bull, Kimi to Ferrari.

Red Bull doesn't even pay Vettel a whole lot, so why shell out the cash for other drivers with less titles. T


Because they want to keep winning WCC titles and need two world class drivers who can fend off Merc's title onslaught in 2014.

#813 Shiroo

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 10:51

My guess
Ricciardo to Red Bull, Kimi to Ferrari.

Red Bull doesn't even pay Vettel a whole lot, so why shell out the cash for other drivers with less titles. The amounts in the rumour circuit are quite high, so I don't believe them. Kimi just wants to get paid, he isn't sure of that at Lotus.

I think Kimi is rich enough :). And with that new sponsor that was supposed to be closed deal last week (it again looks kinda odd) he should be easy to paid for. I faster see him in RBR or retire than in Ferrari.

#814 Sakae

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:26

I read that Petrov thinks that Mercedes should (could?) support him next year. One wonders why Mercedes would do that? Do they owe him anything? I am lost over Russian style thinking.

#815 F1ultimate

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 11:30

I read that Petrov thinks that Mercedes should (could?) support him next year. One wonders why Mercedes would do that? Do they owe him anything? I am lost over Russian style thinking.


Petrov who? He's a faded memory. Out of all ex-F1 drivers who are currently sidelined, he's the pick from the bottom. No respectable midfield team would consider him unless he turns up at their HQ with suit cases full of £20 million in the back of a Black Mercedes S500.

#816 William Hunt

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:00

Petrov is actually linked to Force India and Williams for next year

Edited by William Hunt, 05 August 2013 - 12:05.


#817 Shiroo

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:17

Petrov who? He's a faded memory. Out of all ex-F1 drivers who are currently sidelined, he's the pick from the bottom. No respectable midfield team would consider him unless he turns up at their HQ with suit cases full of £20 million in the back of a Black Mercedes S500.

Petrov was better than 1/3 of the current grid. But it doesn't say much tbh... the quality of the grid is quite shitty at the very moment. Webber gave pretty good point about that.

2002 2013
1. Rubens Barrichello 1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Michael Schumacher 2. Mark Webber
3. Ralf Schumacher 3. Lewis Hamilton
4. David Coulthard 4. Felipe Massa
5. Kimi Raikkonen 5. Fernando Alonso
6. Juan Pablo Montoya 6. Nico Rosberg
7. Jarno Trulli 7. Kimi Raikkonen
8. Giancarlo Fisichella 8. Romain Grosjean
9. Felipe Massa 9. Paul di Resta
10. Nick Heidfeld 10. Jenson Button
11. Jenson Button 11. Nico Hulkenberg
12. Olivier Panis 12. Adrian Sutil
13. Jacques Villeneuve 13. Jean-Eric Vergne
14. Mika Salo 14. Daniel Ricciardo
15. Heinz-Harald Frentzen 15. Sergio Perez
16. Allan McNish 16. Valtteri Bottas
17. Enrique Bernoldi 17. Pastor Maldonado
18. Mark Webber 18. Esteban Gutierrez
19. Eddie Irvine 19. Jules Bianchi
20. Pedro de la Rosa 20. Max Chilton
21. Alex Yoong 21. Giedo van der Garde
22. Takuma Sato 22. Charles Pic

just compare grids...

Edited by Shiroo, 05 August 2013 - 12:18.


#818 jals99

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 12:46

Petrov who? He's a faded memory. Out of all ex-F1 drivers who are currently sidelined, he's the pick from the bottom. No respectable midfield team would consider him unless he turns up at their HQ with suit cases full of £20 million in the back of a Black Mercedes S500.

Petrov beat Heidfeld and Kovalainen as teammates, and he was second in GP2, while Kobayashi for example was only 16-th. And while Kamui was better in first season, then Vitaly looked better comparing with teammates. It is easy two say that team would prefer Vitaly to Kamui on pace and speed alone, but Kamui had some money now and Ferrari support

#819 muramasa

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 13:36

Petrov beat Heidfeld and Kovalainen as teammates, and he was second in GP2, while Kobayashi for example was only 16-th. And while Kamui was better in first season, then Vitaly looked better comparing with teammates. It is easy two say that team would prefer Vitaly to Kamui on pace and speed alone, but Kamui had some money now and Ferrari support

Petrov beat Heidfeld? :confused: I must have been watching different sports.
also i dont have impression that he beat Kova too, altho he seemed to get decent in 2nd or 3rd year. It's more like Petrov did respectable against Heikki. Same for HRT drivers, iirc Narain beat PDLR on paper but impression is quite opposite, and with rather big margin.
Sometimes it's hard to evaluate drivers and cars on bottom of the grid, in one year HRT beat Virgin, but impression tells "no way".

I read interesting story on Kamui's form in GP2 when he was still racing in GP2, that things are quite unfair in GP2, actually huge disparity b/w rich driver and poor, competitive team and uncompetitive, eg those with money and in good team get better equipment while those without get allocated older equipment, also weight distribution rule change in 08-09 (that you have to put ballast on monocoque head) was quite a disadvantageous for lighter drivers. In fact he wasnt bad at all before rule change and actually won GP2 Asia which was done according to older regs.
At that time i disregarded the story (altho it was well written with technical and logical explanation), because i naively thought it was hyperbole being abit too much favourable and paranoiac, but come to think of it now that makes sense to quite a degree.

Petrov isnt crap driver for sure, but to value him better than Kamui is quite questionable to say the least.
Also it's simply not true that Kamui has Ferrari support. As I wrote before, Kamui himself said he chose Ferrari GT role bcs that way he's closer to and connected to F1 in general for opening 2014 chance. If that can be called "support", that's fine, but anyway that's what it is.


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#820 jals99

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 15:09

Petrov beat Heidfeld? :confused: I must have been watching different sports.

He beat him 8-3 in quals. and would be comfortably ahead in championship without Malaysian bump and Monaco crash, which was no fault of his own...


#821 midgrid

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 15:10

He beat him 8-3 in quals. and would be comfortably ahead in championship without Malaysian bump and Monaco crash, which was no fault of his own...


:confused:


#822 autosportfan

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 17:17

Petrov was better than 1/3 of the current grid. But it doesn't say much tbh... the quality of the grid is quite shitty at the very moment. Webber gave pretty good point about that.

2002 2013
1. Rubens Barrichello 1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Michael Schumacher 2. Mark Webber
3. Ralf Schumacher 3. Lewis Hamilton
4. David Coulthard 4. Felipe Massa
5. Kimi Raikkonen 5. Fernando Alonso
6. Juan Pablo Montoya 6. Nico Rosberg
7. Jarno Trulli 7. Kimi Raikkonen
8. Giancarlo Fisichella 8. Romain Grosjean
9. Felipe Massa 9. Paul di Resta
10. Nick Heidfeld 10. Jenson Button
11. Jenson Button 11. Nico Hulkenberg
12. Olivier Panis 12. Adrian Sutil
13. Jacques Villeneuve 13. Jean-Eric Vergne
14. Mika Salo 14. Daniel Ricciardo
15. Heinz-Harald Frentzen 15. Sergio Perez
16. Allan McNish 16. Valtteri Bottas
17. Enrique Bernoldi 17. Pastor Maldonado
18. Mark Webber 18. Esteban Gutierrez
19. Eddie Irvine 19. Jules Bianchi
20. Pedro de la Rosa 20. Max Chilton
21. Alex Yoong 21. Giedo van der Garde
22. Takuma Sato 22. Charles Pic

just compare grids...


Top 6 is stronger today but bottom is really weak!



#823 muramasa

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 17:31

He beat him 8-3 in quals. and would be comfortably ahead in championship without Malaysian bump and Monaco crash, which was no fault of his own...

"beat in quali" again. either quali or race alone means very little.
If one can say Petrov beat Heidfeld, that would make Petrov as good as Kubica but Petrov and Kubica were teammate in prev year and what happened there? Just doesnt make sense.
If such thing is allowed, I can say Kobayashi beat Heidfeld and Trulli in race to fit what some might call is my agenda, but I never do so coz it's more than obvious that such logic and comparison doesnt make sense at all.

When judging and comparing drivers, I would do so by looking at performance comprehensively, taking into considerations various factors/circumstances and facts.

Besides, when it comes to drivers like Nick Heidfeld, I'd look at his past performances/records as a whole, esp BMW and Williams years, instead of only focusing on quali in just half a season he participated in as an emergency filler at the very last minute, in an erratic, struggling car in a team he didnt receive much support, in order to judge him.


#824 plumtree

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 17:31

I read that Petrov thinks that Mercedes should (could?) support him next year. One wonders why Mercedes would do that? Do they owe him anything? I am lost over Russian style thinking.

It's not F1 but Petrov was at Moscow DTM race last weekend in a Mercedes team jacket. Here's the interview.
http://www.youtube.c...e...W43-Vs&t=70


#825 BenF12012

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 18:11


Adrian Sutil will remain Force India's 2014 F1 race seat?

http://thisisf1.com/...ia-for-2014-f1/

I think current Force India line-up one of the best pair in the sport. Expecting Sutil, di Resta line-up for next season.



#826 XOR

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 18:33

Petrov and Kubica were teammate in prev year and what happened there?

Lack of karting experience.
The problem with Petrov at 2010 is that he was obviously not ready to compete with a very strong teammate. But at the same time, you can look at his progress over the years.
I agree that the best option would be to gain experience in weaker teams before joining frontrunners. His manager should be blamed for this

Edited by XOR, 05 August 2013 - 18:37.


#827 Currahee

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 18:40

Adrian Sutil will remain Force India's 2014 F1 race seat?

http://thisisf1.com/...ia-for-2014-f1/

I think current Force India line-up one of the best pair in the sport. Expecting Sutil, di Resta line-up for next season.


I'd have them as the closest pairing on the grid.

#828 KavB

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 20:51

Adrian Sutil will remain Force India's 2014 F1 race seat?

http://thisisf1.com/...ia-for-2014-f1/

I think current Force India line-up one of the best pair in the sport. Expecting Sutil, di Resta line-up for next season.

I think FI should keep their line up. For the past few years they have had to deal with one of their drivers adjusting to F1. In 2011 they had to deal with Di Resta getting used to F1 as a rookie, in 2012 they had to deal with Hulkenberg adjusting back to F1 after a year out and the same this year with Sutil. In 2010 they had to deal with Liuzzi who never got to grips with F1 at any point during his career.

It would be great if they kept some continuity and stay with drivers who can bring in the points straight away rather than wait for a new driver to become good and then lose them to another team as soon as they realise their potential.

Force India could have got 6th in 2010 and 5th in 2011 if they had two solid drivers who could have brought in results from day 1.

#829 midgrid

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 21:29

Sutil and Di Resta both being retained, with Calado getting FP1 outings in preparation for a potential 2015 seat, looks like a pretty good call right now. Despite all the rumours that have been flying round since Hungary, neither Force India driver seems to be seriously in the frame for a move elsewhere.

P.S. Di Resta was actually stronger relative to Sutil in the first half of 2011, in my opinion.

Edited by midgrid, 05 August 2013 - 21:30.


#830 sopa

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 21:38

Wonder what Hulkenberg thinks about the Force India seat. If there is no place at either Ferrari or Lotus, could FI take him back?

#831 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 01:55

2002 2013
1. Rubens Barrichello 1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Michael Schumacher 2. Mark Webber
3. Ralf Schumacher 3. Lewis Hamilton
4. David Coulthard 4. Felipe Massa
5. Kimi Raikkonen 5. Fernando Alonso
6. Juan Pablo Montoya 6. Nico Rosberg
7. Jarno Trulli 7. Kimi Raikkonen
8. Giancarlo Fisichella 8. Romain Grosjean
9. Felipe Massa 9. Paul di Resta
10. Nick Heidfeld 10. Jenson Button
11. Jenson Button 11. Nico Hulkenberg
12. Olivier Panis 12. Adrian Sutil
13. Jacques Villeneuve 13. Jean-Eric Vergne
14. Mika Salo 14. Daniel Ricciardo
15. Heinz-Harald Frentzen 15. Sergio Perez
16. Allan McNish 16. Valtteri Bottas
17. Enrique Bernoldi 17. Pastor Maldonado
18. Mark Webber 18. Esteban Gutierrez
19. Eddie Irvine 19. Jules Bianchi
20. Pedro de la Rosa 20. Max Chilton
21. Alex Yoong 21. Giedo van der Garde
22. Takuma Sato 22. Charles Pic

just compare grids...


I disagree that these are weak grids, besides I don't really think that the 2013 grid is substantially weaker. The weakest drivers today still have a pretty good cv: Giedo vd Garde is a former karting world champion, former World Series champion and was quick in GP2 and Max Chilton is still very young. I don't think they are worse at all as Alex Yoong.

Pay drivers have always been in F1, since the '50s and in the '70s & '80s there were plenty of them.;

Let's for example look at some grids of opening races of some randomly chosen other years:

1981: 1987: 1998:
1. Riccardo Patrese 1. Nigel Mansell 1. Mika Häkkinen
2. Alan Jones 2. Nelson Piquet 2. David Coulthard
3. Carlos Reutemann 3. Ayrton Senna 3. Michael Schumacher
4. Nelson Piquet 4. Teo Fabi 4. Jacques Villeneuve
5. Gilles Villeneuve 5. Alain Prost 5. Johnny Herbert
6. Mario Andretti 6. Thierry Boutsen 6. Heinz-Harald Frentzen
7. Nigel Mansell 7. Gerhard Berger 7. Giancarlo Fisichella
8. Eddie Cheever 8. Derek Warwick 8. Eddie Irvine
9. Bruno Giacomelli 9. Michele Alboreto 9. Ralf Schumacher
10. J.-Pierre Jarier 10. Stefan Johansson 10. Damon Hill
11. Didier Pironi 11. Riccardo Patrese 11. Alexander Wurz
12. Jacques Laffite 12. Satoru Nakajima 12. Jean Alesi
13. Elio de Angelis 13. Andrea de Cesaris 13. Tora Takagi
14. Alain Prost 14. Eddie Cheever 14. Rubens Barrichello
15. Hector Rebaque 15. Alessandro Nannini 15. Jarno Trulli
16. Keke Rosberg 16. Adrian Campos 16. Mika Salo
17. Patrick Tambay 17. Christian Danner 17. Esteban Tuero
18. Chico Serra 18. Jonathan Palmer 18. Jan Magnussen
19. Marc Surer 19. Martin Brundle 19. Ricardo Rosset
20. René Arnoux 20. Philippe Streiff 20. Pedro Diniz
21. Jan Lammers 21. Alex Caffi 21. Olivier Panis
22. Andrea de Cesaris 22. Pascal Fabre 22. Shinji Nakano
23. John Watson 23. Ivan Capelli
24. Beppe Gabbiani
25. Kevin Cogan (DNQ)
26. Eliseo Salazar
27. Miguel Guerra
28.Siegfried Stohr
29. Derek Daly

1970: 1974: 1978:
1. Jackie Stewart 1. Ronnie Peterson 1. Mario Andretti
2. Chris Amon 2. Gianclaudio Regazzoni 2. Carlos Reutemann
3. Jack Brabham 3. Emerson Fittipaldi 3. Ronnie Peterson
4. Jacky Ickx 4. Peter Revson 4. John Watson
5. Jochen Rindt 5. James Hunt 5. Niki Lauda
6. J.-Pierre Beltoise 6. Carlos Reutemann 6. James Hunt
7. John Surtees 7. Jacky Ickx 7. Gilles Villeneuve
8. Denny Hulme 8. Niki Lauda 8. Jacques Laffite
9. Bruce McLaren 9. Mike Hailwood 9. Patrick Tambay
10. Jo Siffert 10. Denny Hulme 10. Patrick Depailler
11. Dave Charlton 11. Carlos Pace 11. J.-Pierre Jarier
12. Jackie Oliver 12. Jody Scheckter 12. Vittorio Brambilla
13. Mario Andretti 13. Arturo Merzario 13. Jochen Mass
14. Rolf Stommelen 14. J.-Pierre Beltoise 14. Alan Jones
15. John Miles 15. Patrick Depailler 15. Jody Scheckter
16. Henri Pescarolo 16. J.-Pierre Jarier 16. Gianclaudio Regazzoni
17. Johnny Servoz-Gavin 17. Graham Hill 17. Emerson Fittipaldi
18. Pedro Rodriguez 18. Jochen Mass 18. Hans-Joachim Stuck
19. Piers Courage 19. Howden Ganley 19. Rupert Keegan
20. Graham Hill 20. John Watson 20. Arturo Merzario
21. George Eaton 21. Henri Pescarolo 21. Danny Ongais
22. John Love 22. Richard Robarts 22. Lamberto Leoni
23. Pieter de Klerk 23. Hans-Joachim Stuck 23. Didier Pironi
24. François Migault 24. Brett Lunger
25. Guy Edwards 25. Hector Rebaque (DNQ)
26. Rikki von Opel 26. Eddie Cheever
27. Miss Davina Galica

If you look at all those grids: I don't think they are in particular stronger or weaker than current grids or than each other. Every season has it's top drivers and also it's paydrivers, it's always been like this.

Edited by William Hunt, 06 August 2013 - 01:55.


#832 noikeee

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:31

I think there's a scope for a fair bit of difference, with some stronger and weaker grids. 78 strikes me as the strongest on that list. 87 and 98 a bit shit from the midfield backwards. There was a bit of a drop in talent in the Senna/Prost years as realistically almost nobody in the grid could be seen as a potential threat to them, and there was a lot of shit paydrivers at the back. Although it got worse in the mid-90s when they both retired and suddenly nobody filled the void. It picked up slightly in the late 90s, seemed to dip when Hakkinen and Villeneuve faded from the front and Schumacher dominated easily, and then progressively got better to reach a peak around the late 00's with the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica into the scene and lots of manufacturers to fund proper talents rather than paydrivers.

We're going away from the theme of silly season and this debate could be continued in the "Webber says..." thread instead.

#833 lustigson

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 13:27

I've been on vacation the last couple of weeks. Here's the updates that I know of. But feel free to remind me of others. :)

Infiniti Red Bull Racing
Red Bull Racing RB10Renault RS28 1.6 V6T (engine deal until '16)
Team Principal: Christian Horner ; Technical Director: Adrian Newey
1. Sebastian Vettel (on a long-term deal through '15)
2. Daniel Ricciardo (allegedly the prime candidate)
Kimi Räikkönen (confirmed to be in frame)
Jean-Éric Vergne (possible, but unlikely)
Fernando Alonso (rumoured)

Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team (HWA might get involved in ownership through Toto Wolff)
Mercedes F1 W05Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Ross Brawn ; Technical Director: Bob Bell
3. Nico Rosberg (on a multi-year deal beyond '13)
4. Lewis Hamilton (signed for '13-'15)

Scuderia Ferrari
Ferrari F2014Ferrari 057 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Stefano Domenicali ; Technical Director: Pat Fry (engineering), James Allison (chassis)
5. Fernando Alonso (contracted through '16)
6. Felipe Massa (current driver)
Jules Bianchi (rumoured; Ferrari junior driver)
Nico Hülkenberg (rumoured)
Kamui Kobayashi (rumoured; currently working with Ferrari)
Paul Di Resta (rumoured)
Kimi Räikkönen (rumoured)

Lotus F1 Team (title sponsorship rumoured for '13, too)
Lotus E22Renault RS28 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Eric Boullier ; Technical Director: Nick Chester
7. Kimi Räikkönen (current driver)
Daniel Ricciardo (rumoured)
Nico Hülkenberg (rumoured)
8. Romain Grosjean (current driver)
Robert Kubica (confirmed to be in the frame, should he be fit to return)
Davide Valsecchi (confirmed to be in the frame)
Kamui Kobayashi (rumoured)

Sahara Force India F1 Team
Force India VJM07Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T (multi-year deal)
Team Principal: Vijay Mallya ; Technical Director: Andrew Green
9. Adrian Sutil (current driver; claims his seat is not certain)
10. Paul Di Resta (current driver; has a 2014 contract)

McLaren Mercedes (Vodafone title sponsorship deal ends)
McLaren MP4-29Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T (last year of Mercedes partnership; Honda from '15 onwards)
Team Principal: Martin Whitmarsh ; Technical Director: Tim Goss
11. Jenson Button (contracted through '13 with option for '14)
12. Sergio Pérez (on a multi-year contract)

Scuderia Toro Rosso
Toro Rosso STR9Renault RS28 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Franz Tost ; Technical Director: James Key
14. Daniel Ricciardo (current driver; expected to move to Red Bull mother team)
António Félix da Costa (Red Bull junior driver, expected to graduate to F1)
15. Jean-Éric Vergne (current driver; Marko claims he expects Vergne at STR for '14 as well)

Sauber F1 Team
Sauber C33Ferrari 057 1.6 V6T / Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Monisha Kaltenborn ; Chief Designer: Eric Gandelin
16. Nico Hülkenberg (current driver)
Sergey Olegovich Sirotkin (may graduate as early as '14; comes with Russian partners)
Vitaly Petrov (rumoured)
17. Esteban Gutiérrez (current driver; expected to stay)
Robin Frijns (rumoured)

Williams F1 Team
Williams FW36Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T (multi-year deal)
Team Principal: Frank Williams ; Chief Technical Officer: Pat Symonds
18. Pastor Maldonado (on a long-term deal through '14, perhaps with options)
19. Valtteri Bottas (on a long-term deal through '14)
Vitaly Petrov (rumoured)

Marussia F1 Team
Marussia MR03Ferrari 057 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: John Booth ; Technical Director: T.B.A.
20. Jules Bianchi (current driver)
Vitaly Petrov (rumoured)
Kevin Magnussen (rumoured; McLaren junior driver)
21. Max Chilton (current driver; maybe with long-term deal)
Luiz Razia (dropped at the 11th hour for the '13 season; welcome to return, according to the team)

Caterham F1 Team
Caterham CT04Renault RS28 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Cyril Abiteboul ; Technical Director: Mark Smith
22. Charles Pic (confirmed; long-term deal)
23. Giedo van der Garde (current driver)
Heikki Kovalainen (former driver; rumoured)
Kevin Magnussen (rumoured; McLaren junior driver)

Edited by lustigson, 07 August 2013 - 11:05.


#834 V3TT3L

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 14:44

I've been on vacation the last couple of weeks. Here's the updates that I know of. But feel free to remind me of others. :)

Infiniti Red Bull Racing
Red Bull Racing RB10Renault RS28 1.6 V6T (engine deal until '16)
Team Principal: Christian Horner ; Technical Director: Adrian Newey

Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team (HWA might get involved in ownership through Toto Wolff)
Mercedes F1 W05Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Ross Brawn ; Technical Director: Bob Bell

Scuderia Ferrari
Ferrari F2014Ferrari 057 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Stefano Domenicali ; Technical Director: James Allison Pat Fry

Honeywell Lotus F1 Team (title sponsorship rumoured for '13, too)
Lotus E22Renault RS28 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Eric Boullier ; Technical Director: Nick Chester

Sahara Force India F1 Team
Force India VJM07Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T (multi-year deal)
Team Principal: Vijay Mallya ; Technical Director: Andrew Green

McLaren Mercedes (Vodafone title sponsorship deal ends)
McLaren MP4-29Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T (last year of Mercedes partnership; Honda from '15 onwards)
Team Principal: Martin Whitmarsh ; Technical Director: Tim Goss

Scuderia Toro Rosso
Toro Rosso STR9Renault RS28 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Franz Tost ; Technical Director: James Key

Sauber F1 Team
Sauber C33Ferrari 057 1.6 V6T / Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Monisha Kaltenborn ; Chief Designer: Matt Morris

Williams F1 Team
Williams FW36Mercedes FO106A 1.6 V6T (multi-year deal)
Team Principal: Frank Williams ; Technical Director: Pat Symonds Mike Coughlan

Marussia F1 Team
Marussia MR03Ferrari 057 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: John Booth ; Technical Director: Pat Symonds

Caterham F1 Team
Caterham CT04Renault RS28 1.6 V6T
Team Principal: Cyril Abiteboul ; Technical Director: Mark Smith

:p I believe Team Principal / Technical Director has be coloured too.

Edited by V3TT3L, 06 August 2013 - 14:57.


#835 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:17

@ V3TTL : why not just say that without quoting that long post. I find it very anoying when people quote complete long posts when that is completely not necessary. As a result people have to scroll so much more.

#836 GhostR

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:30

@ V3TTL : why not just say that without quoting that long post. I find it very anoying when people quote complete long posts when that is completely not necessary. As a result people have to scroll so much more.

What you missed is he added / crossed out some tech staff changes in what he quoted.

#837 lustigson

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:58

:p I believe Team Principal / Technical Director has be coloured too.


I'd forgotten about those. Thanks. I'll update my list later tonight.

Edit: done.

Edited by lustigson, 06 August 2013 - 18:34.


#838 Jovanotti

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:08

Plus I think you can safely remove the 'Honeywell' name as possible title sponsor from Lotus.

#839 Anderis

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 17:19

Pat Symonds is not a technical director at Williams and it's not certain he will ever be. His role is "Chief Technical Officer". It's quite possible there will be other person with a new Technical Director role soon at Williams. The team has stated more appointments are going to be made in the next 18 months.

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#840 Dolph

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 17:29

There is a difference between being accountable and acting as a rubber-stamp.


You don't know squat how things work at Ferrari.

#841 Vesuvius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:22

You don't know squat how things work at Ferrari.


...and who are you to tell how things work at Ferrari? :rolleyes:

Edited by Vesuvius, 06 August 2013 - 18:23.


#842 TFLB

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:03

Wonder what Hulkenberg thinks about the Force India seat. If there is no place at either Ferrari or Lotus, could FI take him back?

Yet another person who seems to think that Hulkenberg has a free choice as to where he drives. :rolleyes:

#843 sopa

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:19

Yet another person who seems to think that Hulkenberg has a free choice as to where he drives. :rolleyes:


No he doesn't necessarily have a free choice, but it is funny to think if Hulkenberg knocks on Force India's door telling them "guys I am sorry I thought you are going bankrupt, but the other team went instead. Do you take me back? Remember I beat di Resta last year." :D


#844 Alfisti

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:35

Hulk REALLY needs a better seat, he's head and shoulders the next guy in line. Someone's gotta take him surely?

#845 TFLB

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 20:37

Hulk REALLY needs a better seat, he's head and shoulders the next guy in line. Someone's gotta take him surely?

He hasn't done anything ever to prove he's that good.

#846 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 20:46

Ferrari should dump Massa, put Hulk there for a year and then get Bianchi in a better car in 2014 than Marussia. If Bianchi is show himself worthy promote him in 2015 to Ferrari, if Hulk show the goods in his one year Ferrari have to decide if either of Hulk or Bianchi the way to go.

:cool:

#847 race addicted

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 20:51

He hasn't done anything ever to prove he's that good.


He has, but you've forgotten or never noticed. Thing is he took the chances when they presented themselves, and shone.
...but, I'm slowly starting to wonder a little about him, as I think Gutierrez has run him relatively close in the last few G's P. A little too close, but maybe I just have to think of Gutierrez as better than I first thought he was.

#848 lustigson

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 20:51

Ferrari should dump Massa, put Hulk there for a year and then get Bianchi in a better car in 2014 than Marussia.

Being the Sauber that Hülkenberg vacates. :cool:

#849 Viryfan

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:28

He has, but you've forgotten or never noticed. Thing is he took the chances when they presented themselves, and shone.
...but, I'm slowly starting to wonder a little about him, as I think Gutierrez has run him relatively close in the last few G's P. A little too close, but maybe I just have to think of Gutierrez as better than I first thought he was.


He lost his self control in Brazil last year.
He got his best F1 race result because there was Grosjean shunt at Spa taking out 9 cars ahead of him.
He cracked under pressure in Brazil in 2010 after his pole.Bottas did a better job in Montreal this year keeping up.
He was short cutting chicanes in Monza in 2010 to keep it up with webber.

Not better than Maldonado AMHA.

Edited by Viryfan, 06 August 2013 - 21:29.


#850 TFLB

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:29

He has, but you've forgotten or never noticed. Thing is he took the chances when they presented themselves, and shone.
...but, I'm slowly starting to wonder a little about him, as I think Gutierrez has run him relatively close in the last few G's P. A little too close, but maybe I just have to think of Gutierrez as better than I first thought he was.

Did he? The only time I remember him shining was in the first part of last year's Brazilian GP, but he threw that away with an unforced spin then crashed, earning himself a penalty and taking out Hamilton. Also his debut season was very average. Yes, he had a pole, but it was a fluke in odd conditions and he went backwards on race day. But I agree about Gutierrez running him close recently, not necessarily in qualifying but certainly in race pace. Also Hulk was poor in the first half of his rookie season, and first half of last season as he got up to speed, and people need to remember that Gutierrez is a rookie and not up to speed yet! People have been far to quick to judge Esteban.