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Hungaroring to be reconstructed (?)


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#1 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:44

the head of the hungaroring management, Zsolt Gyulay recently gave an interview, talking about the conditions of renewing the contract of the hungaroring beyond 2016 amongst others. since the international press doesn't seem to be picking it up, I'll try my best to translate the article:

http://f1vilag.hu//h...k-hungaroringet

-----------------

not only the asphalt can be refreshed, but even the layout can get reprofiled in the coming years at the hungaroring, according to Zsolt Gyulay, who says this can even become a main condition for the renewal of the contract of the track.
the current contract ends by 2016, and Gyulay is going to abu dhabi to sit down with Bernie.

"I think we have a good chance to be one of the european tracks which keep themselves in the calendar. though I must add, we have to find the optimum amount of money spent on the ring, not more, not less, because the track is already exploited well."

Gyulay added that certain conditions have to be met to extend the contract through 2021.
"I feel a positive attitude from the government, and I think we have a good chance for the extension" - said Gyulay, who also added that laying down a new layer of asphalt won't be enough, and it seems that the sole overtaking spot at the end of the main straight is not enough, they will have to create a new one.

"I think it would be great if the track would be updated, and the track would have another overtaking spot. this, a new layer of asphalt and new kerbs are the next project, and I think this can be done from a budget of 1000m HUF (about 3,5m in €) also we are working on the sound-proofing of the track for the sake of the towns near the track. if we are already in big works at the track, it would be logical to do this kind of work at the same time."

-----------------

one of my friends who organizes time attack races (on the hungaroring as well) said there were plans to ditch the T12-T13 part of the track, and have the back straight going down to T14, but for that they would need a bigger runoff area, and we have a hillside (and grandstands? not sure they go that low on the hillside) in the way.


I hope they can work out something great, so the fans can finally not hate the track, and we get to keep our race as well. :blush:

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#2 TFLB

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:08

One of my favourite tracks, so I'd love to see it stay on the calendar, but I hope they don't ruin it in the name of creating false racing.

#3 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:13

One of my favourite tracks, so I'd love to see it stay on the calendar, but I hope they don't ruin it in the name of creating false racing.

I don't know what you mean by that, maybe a misunderstanding, so clarification: they don't want to have 2 DRS zones, they want to reprofile the trach to add a natural overtaking spot.

#4 LiJu914

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:15

It will be difficult to implement "another overtaking spot" as that implies,that there already is one...

#5 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:21

Hopefully Tilke gets involved

#6 maverick69

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:22

one of my friends who organizes time attack races (on the hungaroring as well) said there were plans to ditch the T12-T13 part of the track, and have the back straight going down to T14, but for that they would need a bigger runoff area, and we have a hillside (and grandstands? not sure they go that low on the hillside) in the way.


Lol!

I was having that very thought during this years race....... although as a Hamilton fan I did take solace in the fact that it's so hard to pass there at the moment :p


#7 Kvothe

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:27

I don't know what you mean by that, maybe a misunderstanding, so clarification: they don't want to have 2 DRS zones, they want to reprofile the trach to add a natural overtaking spot.


I think if they were going to reprofile it, I would suggest the removal of turns 11, 12 and instead opt for a straight that skips straight to what is 13 now (but would be 11) with possible alterations to it to make it slightly faster, which would help to keep the cars closer together, for the long S/F straight. Better yet you could have the DRS there to let the cars close up and leave the start finish DRS free.

Edit: Actually just read the op, seems something similar has been suggested.

Edit 2: Based on the English Wikipedia as mentioned below.

Edited by Kvothe, 22 October 2012 - 12:31.


#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:29

one of my friends who organizes time attack races (on the hungaroring as well) said there were plans to ditch the T12-T13 part of the track, and have the back straight going down to T14, but for that they would need a bigger runoff area, and we have a hillside (and grandstands? not sure they go that low on the hillside) in the way.


I hope they can work out something great, so the fans can finally not hate the track, and we get to keep our race as well. :blush:


[Consults circuit maps]

Which corners are you referring to?

Forix's map shows T12-13 being the straight between the esses and the final 3 corners.

English wikipedia only shows 13 corners in total http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hungaroring

Czech wikipedia is different again http://cs.wikipedia....iki/Hungaroring

Can someone clarify what this proposed modification would be?

Edited by PayasYouRace, 22 October 2012 - 12:30.


#9 IMHO

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:29

Turn 3 is a good spot too, seen many overtakings there in many series. But that does not fit the always hilarious no overtaking at the Hungaroring myth.

#10 noikeee

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:30

There's not enough space for there to be an overtaking spot into T14, as the straight would be laughably short. Unless they get rid of T12-T14 and make it a veeeery gentle long curve, so that the back straight and the main straight become one single acceleration zone into T1. This would force some relocation of the paddock.

Unrealistic IMO and the circuit is fine as it is - it's fine to have one track where it's difficult to overtake as it becomes a different challenge, plus the layout and its sequences of mid-speed corners is relatively challenging for the drivers anyway.

#11 TFLB

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:35

I don't know what you mean by that, maybe a misunderstanding, so clarification: they don't want to have 2 DRS zones, they want to reprofile the trach to add a natural overtaking spot.

Basically what I mean is I hope they don't put a Tilke-style slow corner thing in to try and increase overtaking at the expense of the flow of the track.

#12 blackhand2010

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:36

Probably logistically (and geographically) impossible, but I've always had the idea to bin 14 and 15, and make 16 a banked corner. Before that, tighten up 13, so they're not heading too quickly towards the banking.
Finally move turn 3 back/tighten it to ensure that the lap isn't too short (though I don't see why we shouldn't have more races on shorter circuits, or, indeed, longer ones).

Not gonna happen, though.

#13 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:38

[Consults circuit maps]

Which corners are you referring to?

Forix's map shows T12-13 being the straight between the esses and the final 3 corners.

English wikipedia only shows 13 corners in total http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hungaroring

Czech wikipedia is different again http://cs.wikipedia....iki/Hungaroring

Can someone clarify what this proposed modification would be?

as far as I know the correct numbering is: last turn is T14, T12 is the right hander 90° at the bottom of the back straight, T13 is the slow 180° before the pit entry.
this is the same as on f1.com:
http://www.formula1....it_diagram.html

#14 maverick69

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:38

There's not enough space for there to be an overtaking spot into T14, as the straight would be laughably short. Unless they get rid of T12-T14 and make it a veeeery gentle long curve, so that the back straight and the main straight become one single acceleration zone into T1. This would force some relocation of the paddock.

Unrealistic IMO and the circuit is fine as it is - it's fine to have one track where it's difficult to overtake as it becomes a different challenge, plus the layout and its sequences of mid-speed corners is relatively challenging for the drivers anyway.


I'm not so sure. You saw plenty of people "having a sniff", without DRS into T11. To me it seemed that if you had another 200 or so meters leading up to a similar turning profile (albeit one that's a little wider on exit - maybe think China "T15") then you could have a good spot. That 200 extra meters would take you up to the start of the pit straight.

Edited by maverick69, 22 October 2012 - 12:47.


#15 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:45

There's not enough space for there to be an overtaking spot into T14, as the straight would be laughably short. Unless they get rid of T12-T14 and make it a veeeery gentle long curve, so that the back straight and the main straight become one single acceleration zone into T1. This would force some relocation of the paddock.

Unrealistic IMO and the circuit is fine as it is - it's fine to have one track where it's difficult to overtake as it becomes a different challenge, plus the layout and its sequences of mid-speed corners is relatively challenging for the drivers anyway.

I don't think that the getting rid of 12-13 idea would be to enhance overtaking into 14, more like creating a last corner that helps staying close entering the main straight.

#16 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:48

as far as I know the correct numbering is: last turn is T14, T12 is the right hander 90° at the bottom of the back straight, T13 is the slow 180° before the pit entry.
this is the same as on f1.com:
http://www.formula1....it_diagram.html


This is why corner names are so useful.

So my understanding is that the modification would simply be to straightline the "backstraight" into the final corner, turning it into a 90° right. Or am I getting it wrong?

#17 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:53

This is why corner names are so useful.

So my understanding is that the modification would simply be to straightline the "backstraight" into the final corner, turning it into a 90° right. Or am I getting it wrong?

that is just an idea they've looked at in the past, but it would be hard to accomplish (small place for runoffs) but I hope if they indeed change the layout, that is their no1 plan :)

#18 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:13

Here are what I envision to be three possibilities. Forgive my poor tracing and sloppy lines.

I don't like the first, because it eliminates the esses. I think the second would give the best shot at overtaking, and still maintains some of the esses. I think 3 retains the characteristic of the track best.
Posted Image

And here is the area in question.
Posted Image

#19 Tarzaan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:13

My idea:

Posted Image

When I made it, I took into account the terrain capability of the area.


In this draw first I increase the start/finish straight by about 150m, wich means the straight between turn 1 ans turn 2 also increase by 150m. I alos increase the gravel trap/safety area behind turn 1 and 2. The sothern line would be in a "
rampart" to keep the start/finish line roughly horizontal.
The result: higher possibility of overtaking, more place for grandstands.


Before turn 5 (orange line) I increase a little bit the straight, and made turn five a little bit sharper, because it may let the cars to stay closer to the car before them in the straight after turn 5.
Negative affect: turn 5 has a good rhythm, but the original turn 5 may remain to other series.


I also increase the nothern straight by about 150m, so it would be about 400-450 m long with a tight chicane in the end. That would be a possible overtaking area and a second DRS zone + place for more grand stands.


Before turn 12 I shortend the straigt but make turn 12 sharper, so IMHO that would result better overtaking oppurtunities. It will also increase the run-off area, which is now wery short.


In turn 14 (the corner which lead to the start/finish straight) I made the entrance of the corner a little bit sharper to allow the cars to stay close to the car before them. This - combined with the longer start/finish straight - would result much more overtakes.


All in all imho this "plan" would increase the overtaking areas, but can keep the character of the track and keep the current racing line (except the turn 1).There will stay also some place to broaden the pit complex. The track will be a bit longer (about 200m) but a little bit faster, so imho the laptimes would remain the same (shorter laptime would be negative imho because of the overtakings).

+1: there would no need the cut down too much trees.





PS:

red line: new racing line
orange line: only if neccesery
blue line/white line: new grand stands

Edited by Tarzaan, 22 October 2012 - 13:16.


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#20 Sakae

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:17

[Consults circuit maps]

Which corners are you referring to?

Forix's map shows T12-13 being the straight between the esses and the final 3 corners.

English wikipedia only shows 13 corners in total http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hungaroring

Czech wikipedia is different again http://cs.wikipedia....iki/Hungaroring

Can someone clarify what this proposed modification would be?

http://www.fia.com/e...es/circuit.aspx


#21 Tiakumosan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:20

Was waiting to see ideas! Thank you!

#22 jeze

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:34

I'd do it this way. The second corner is moved to where the penultimate corner is today and retains a huge runoff and wide entrance to make lunges possible. That it turn will make the fast right hander a bit more interesting since the approach speed will be much greater. Therefore a few extra yards of runoff there. The section where Massa crashed is a brilliant one for driving but I'd remove the unnecessary chicane at the back end and straightline it into the esses. Then after the esses, straight down to the final corner.

That would make sure the track retained its length, all the best corners, got faster and increased the likelihood of overtaking.

I don't know how to upload files from my computer, but I've made it in Google Earth and I really liked that flow.



#23 Kvothe

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:37

Here are what I envision to be three possibilities. Forgive my poor tracing and sloppy lines.

I don't like the first, because it eliminates the esses. I think the second would give the best shot at overtaking, and still maintains some of the esses. I think 3 retains the characteristic of the track best.
Posted Image


I I've noticed for 3 it seems you've solved the problem of a lack of run-off with a chicane similar to that of Singapore, however this than puts the emphasis on traction, and means the car ahead will get on the power first and with the help of KERS probably create a big enough gap down the S/F straight. I prefer some of the other suggestions such as a turn similar to 13 in China before the back straight, or maybe even having it banked both of which which would allow cars to maintain some speed before the S/F straight, and hopefully increase the slip stream effect in to turn 1.

Edit: I meant a chicane similar to Singapore not Barcelona

Edited by Kvothe, 22 October 2012 - 13:47.


#24 Tarzaan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 13:43

My idea:

Posted Image

When I made it, I took into account the terrain capability of the area.


In this draw first I increase the start/finish straight by about 150m, wich means the straight between turn 1 ans turn 2 also increase by 150m. I alos increase the gravel trap/safety area behind turn 1 and 2. The sothern line would be in a "
rampart" to keep the start/finish line roughly horizontal.
The result: higher possibility of overtaking, more place for grandstands.


Before turn 5 (orange line) I increase a little bit the straight, and made turn five a little bit sharper, because it may let the cars to stay closer to the car before them in the straight after turn 5.
Negative affect: turn 5 has a good rhythm, but the original turn 5 may remain to other series.


I also increase the nothern straight by about 150m, so it would be about 400-450 m long with a tight chicane in the end. That would be a possible overtaking area and a second DRS zone + place for more grand stands.


Before turn 12 I shortend the straigt but make turn 12 sharper, so IMHO that would result better overtaking oppurtunities. It will also increase the run-off area, which is now wery short.


In turn 14 (the corner which lead to the start/finish straight) I made the entrance of the corner a little bit sharper to allow the cars to stay close to the car before them. This - combined with the longer start/finish straight - would result much more overtakes.


All in all imho this "plan" would increase the overtaking areas, but can keep the character of the track and keep the current racing line (except the turn 1).There will stay also some place to broaden the pit complex. The track will be a bit longer (about 200m) but a little bit faster, so imho the laptimes would remain the same (shorter laptime would be negative imho because of the overtakings).

+1: there would no need the cut down too much trees.





PS:

red line: new racing line
orange line: only if neccesery
blue line/white line: new grand stands




Edit:

some said the picture is not visible outside of hungary:


Posted Image

http://img211.imagev...2_122_945lo.JPG


#25 MonacoMaster

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:38

Posted Image

I tried to take a 'realistic' approach. No need to cut roads etc.

Edited by MonacoMaster, 22 October 2012 - 14:39.


#26 mangeliiito

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:43

The track is pretty good as it is, as long as they get rid of that horrible chicane!

#27 Atreiu

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:50

My idea...

Posted Image

#28 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:53

Man, some of you make Hermann Tilke look like John Hugenholtz.

#29 teejay

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 14:55

s3 really is a goats asshole.

#30 SpaMaster

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:03

The last corner is an absolute spoil-sport for overtaking. Anything they can do to change it would make things better.

#31 OoxLox

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:22

I hope they don't change anything in turns 1-5 as that's an excellent stretch of track. They also need to retain the great general admission access round the back of the circuit and not ruin it for spectators as it's the one race that a lot of people in eastern Europe can get to without spending a fortune.

I'd vote for smoothing out T10 so it's no more than a kink in the track and change entry/exit on T11 to make it easier to overtake into that corner. This is about the only place I saw a dry conditions overtake in 2011 when Hamilton took Webber there for 4th near the end of the race.

#32 Tarzaan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:29

An important note:

The Hungaroring is a short track, so must carefull with any rebuilding, because it musn't result faster laptimes.

Edited by Tarzaan, 22 October 2012 - 15:35.


#33 toxicfusion

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:44

Turn 1 is fine in my opinion, and that was among the changes they made to the circuit they made last time.

Sector 2 is tricky, but has super fast speed corners, which are again fine.


Sector 3 could do with improvements but I'd be against losing all of the final turns so perhaps changing the approach will work.


Posted Image

#34 Disgrace

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 15:48

An important note:

The Hungaroring is a short track, so must carefull with any rebuilding, because it musn't result faster laptimes.


Why not? Increase the number of laps. It's not Monaco, not even the A1 Ring, so there shouldn't be a problem.

I think the only real problem is sector three where unfortunately there is the least amount of room to maneuver. I would like to see the final corners turned into a Sepang double-right hander.

Posted Image

#35 Tarzaan

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:03

Why not? Increase the number of laps. It's not Monaco, not even the A1 Ring, so there shouldn't be a problem.

I think the only real problem is sector three where unfortunately there is the least amount of room to maneuver. I would like to see the final corners turned into a Sepang double-right hander.

Posted Image



Because that will resoult too muh overtakes.

Your last sector looks good in this pics, but there are no room for this., because here are hills and altitude differences. It requires way too much earthmoving in a great natural spectator area.

Imho only the western side is suitable to a major expansion/reconstruction. From turn 5/8 to turn 14 you should stay within the outside guiderail.


Ps:

I modified my first "plan". Blue lines means grand stands/seats, the neon green "spray" means standing places.


Posted Image


http://img11.imageve...ta_122_66lo.JPG

Edited by Tarzaan, 22 October 2012 - 16:05.


#36 maverick69

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:34

Posted Image

My thoughts on the T14 situation - and trying to stay within the confines of the track. Frugality and all that.........

Edited by maverick69, 22 October 2012 - 16:43.


#37 jeze

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:39

Posted Image

My thoughts on the T14 situation - and trying to stay within the confines of the track. Frugality and all that.........


Remove the chicane at the back and you have my proposal :clap:




#38 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:41

Oh man, I really hope they don't go through with it. I really like the current layout. The reason why there is no overtaking is because the cars can't follow each other through the last corner, that's a car problem not a track problem.

#39 maverick69

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:44

Remove the chicane at the back and you have my proposal :clap:


Thanks mate..... Great minds and all that..... But it seems my piccie has gone already!

I'd Better find another host!

Edited by maverick69, 22 October 2012 - 16:46.


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#40 maverick69

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:46

Posted Image

There we go!

#41 Les

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:48

There's problems in doing anything to the track as its in a confined space. One of the options above involves extending the main straight but that extends over the main road outside the track so that's not happening!

The proposed change bu cutting out the loop before the pitlane is an interesting one (between turns 14 and 16 going by the map above). There's a few problems here as well. For one there is a big elevation change between 14 and 16 which doesn't really show on TV but if it was straightlined then there would probably be a big ramp between where the corners currently are. Also there is no run-off at 16 if cars are coming straight at it so stands would need to be cleared and run-off space created. Its a popular viewing spot and an excellent one too. Thirdly the lap-time would be very short. Maybe they can find ways round all three points but it would be a big job.

One thing they could easily do is remove the pointless chicane at the back of the circuit. That would be nice.

#42 Les

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 16:51

Oh man, I really hope they don't go through with it. I really like the current layout. The reason why there is no overtaking is because the cars can't follow each other through the last corner, that's a car problem not a track problem.


Indeed. Some of the 80s races were entertaining and similarly when it rained in 2006/2010 there were good races those years too. The real shame of that the teams have chickened out of changing the aero rules and have gone for the cop-out of DRS instead.

#43 alfa1

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 18:40


Amateur circuit designers who wish to mess with the last corner have to remember that the track is not flat.

Here's a montage I just threw together of the last few corners, as seen from the back of the pit building.

Posted Image

downhill, uphill etc...


#44 Zava

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:12

Amateur circuit designers who wish to mess with the last corner have to remember that the track is not flat.

Here's a montage I just threw together of the last few corners, as seen from the back of the pit building.

Posted Image

downhill, uphill etc...

well not like that is going to stop anyone if they want to connect the straight with the last corner. just a couple of m^3 of sand thrown there and we're done.  ;)
I think they had to 'level up' the ground for the new T1 and its runoff, iirc it is way higher than the surroundings. @Tarzaan: this is one of the problems with your new T1, the ground has to be made at least 5 m higher, also you have to demolish a public road and a gas station. I don't think that will happen, modifications, if any, will be done using only the existing area of the track.

#45 Atreiu

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 19:13

My proposal is simple and good enough!

#46 Tarzaan

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:06

@Tarzaan: this is one of the problems with your new T1, the ground has to be made at least 5 m higher, also you have to demolish a public road and a gas station. I don't think that will happen, modifications, if any, will be done using only the existing area of the track.


If the government (track owner) thik this re-construction seriously, de gas station and the public road would be not a problem. The public road is not a problem.

That road is not a busy road, thats mostly used to go to the track, and the gas station also could be relocate to an other place some meters away.

Yes, I know about the difference in level - as I mentioned it earlier. I also mentioned that the "new" start/finish straight should be build horizontal. This is architecturally solvable, just require to build a rampart. The straight from turn1 to turn2 would be a downhill part.


Posted Image

http://img127.imagev...g_122_176lo.jpg


#47 korzeniow

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:58

Posted Image

There we go!


This :up:

#48 korzeniow

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:13

Amateur circuit designers who wish to mess with the last corner have to remember that the track is not flat.

Here's a montage I just threw together of the last few corners, as seen from the back of the pit building.

Posted Image

downhill, uphill etc...


:rotfl:

Yeah, people created artificial island (Yas) and here it would be impossible just to level the ground

#49 ViMaMo

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:34

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First of all its dusty,bumpy and narrow. They could atleast make it smoother to aid overtaking and a slightly abrasive surface to offset the dust factor. Also make the circuit wide at strategic locations to aid taking different lines through the corner and hence overtaking.

The whole sequence of corners from 2 to 10 are flowing but do not offer opportunities to overtake.

They need to make turn 2 and 4 of larger radius, and reduce radius of corner 5 to make it a overtaking point. Also make the track wider at corner 5.

Remove corner 11 & 12, keep the straight from turn 10; add a bus top chicane before corner 13.

Edited by ViMaMo, 23 October 2012 - 07:37.


#50 lustigson

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:39

Yeah, people created artificial island (Yas) and here it would be impossible just to level the ground

Or have the the track run up the hill. Like they did in Austin. For which they created a hill. Twice the size of this sand dune.;)