Jump to content


Photo

Vettel: illegal track-cutting?


  • Please log in to reply
101 replies to this topic

#1 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:11

Many threw it up that Vettel cut twice the track during his flying lap:
http://sphotos-e.ak....109674870_n.png

I don't wanna make a comment on it.

Advertisement

#2 roadrunner89

roadrunner89
  • Member

  • 105 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:16

I think the curb is part of the track therefore he had still 2 wheels on track.

#3 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:18

I think the curb is part of the track therefore he had still 2 wheels on track.


You can't leave the track completely, actually you can't get off the white line with all of the four wheels. That's what he has done,

#4 Realyn

Realyn
  • Member

  • 555 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:24

I don't wanna make a comment on it.



You can't leave the track completely, actually you can't get off the white line with all of the four wheels. That's what he has done,


You failed.

#5 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,189 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:26

Tracks shouldn´t allow that to happen. If you go there, you should be slower. Everyone was doing that on the exit of

#6 roadrunner89

roadrunner89
  • Member

  • 105 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:27

I don't know what the rules exactly say in this case but i always thought that it is sufficient to have at least 2 wheels on the curb. But I may be wrong though ;)

#7 DarthWillie

DarthWillie
  • Member

  • 1,719 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:29

cutting the track is a newey design :lol:

#8 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:32

"Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."


Technically its illegal but isn't it to late for any protest?

#9 Fourjays

Fourjays
  • Member

  • 240 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:32

The kerb is not part of the track. Was a discussion on here not long ago about it and the rules are quite clear - the kerb is not the track.

However, it always seem they let these things go when it is something they all do, which is probably the case here (if not then the lap should be deleted).

#10 roadrunner89

roadrunner89
  • Member

  • 105 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:34

http://www.formula1....s/8683/fia.html

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.



So curb not part of the track?

Damn, jrg19 was faster:P

Edited by roadrunner89, 27 October 2012 - 22:35.


#11 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 601 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:37

Technically its illegal but isn't it to late for any protest?


Stewards have until the hour before the race to make a change.

He's clearly broken the rules but the stewards always seem to like Seb a bit. We'll see what happens but now that the images are doing the rounds on twitter, it will almost certainly be looked at in the morning.

If I remember correctly, when Vettel fluffed his first qualy lap, he went straight back into the pits, correct? If that is the case, he'll likely have to start 10th, behind the Merc of Rosberg.

#12 mnmracer

mnmracer
  • Member

  • 1,972 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:39

Seemed like everyone was doing it.
Do we have footage of others?

It wouldn't be the first time that there's been special exceptions to a rule for a certain track/race.

#13 Mandzipop

Mandzipop
  • RC Forum Host

  • 4,136 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:40

I know Martin mentioned it during qualifying (and I think Button mentioned it as well at some point), it had been brought to Charlie's attention that certain areas were fine to run wide at and all 4 wheels leaving the track. It is not unusual that these allowances happen. Something like that would have already have been investigated by the stewards. Is Seb the only driver to have done it?


#14 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:40

I wonder if there will be talk about it on the SkyF1 pre race show?

#15 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,189 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:43

No, no, curbs are not part off the track. Technically it´s ilegal, but it´s always overlooked when it´s this close.

It´s sad to see circuits are so lenient on people cheating them, reminds me of the old Monza curbs every driver on the grid cheated blatantly. I think I heard drivers pushed to reduce curbs height this year after Massa´s incident. Half the grid would have had their suspension ...slightly modified, if the old one in the chicane was stilllike last year.

#16 Absulute

Absulute
  • Member

  • 872 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:45

Clear cut, send him to the back.

#17 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,585 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:45

Nothing is going to happen but IMO the stewards should be more strict with these shortcuts next season.

#18 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 601 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:46

I know Martin mentioned it during qualifying (and I think Button mentioned it as well at some point), it had been brought to Charlie's attention that certain areas were fine to run wide at and all 4 wheels leaving the track. It is not unusual that these allowances happen. Something like that would have already have been investigated by the stewards. Is Seb the only driver to have done it?


I think they were specifically referring to the pitlane, where everyone seems to be taking a much wider line (ie. off the track) to make the turn quicker. I'm not sure if it applies to the other corners. We'll find out tomorrow.

#19 ayali

ayali
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:46

The official classification after qualifying has been published by the FiA so no more penalties will be issued unless someone discovers a faulty gearbox tomorrow.

:wave:

Advertisement

#20 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,189 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:47

Seemed like everyone was doing it.


In the long right hander, I noticed so. They used it big time. Didn´t notice the chicane cheating though.


It wouldn't be the first time that there's been special exceptions to a rule for a certain track/race.


Yep, remember old A1 Ring. Din´t think it´s the case here, it´s just people using that place and no one complaining.


#21 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 57,081 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:48

The kerbs should be considered in, the runoff not.

#22 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 3,203 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:49

He's a witch!!!

#23 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,037 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:52

Sam Michael spoke about it on Sky on the pre-quali thing. His exact words, speaking on why Lewis did an extra fast lap in FP3 were "they were trying to find the limits on the kerbs and how far they can ran off the circuit" ... Whiting gave the teams a detailed explanation about which parts they can "cut" and which parts they can't, so pretty much everybody was doing it.

#24 Absulute

Absulute
  • Member

  • 872 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:53

He's a witch!!!


So you're saying he weighs the same as a duck?

Blatant cheating.

#25 Mandzipop

Mandzipop
  • RC Forum Host

  • 4,136 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:54

Sam Michael spoke about it on Sky on the pre-quali thing. His exact words, speaking on why Lewis did an extra fast lap in FP3 were "they were trying to find the limits on the kerbs and how far they can ran off the circuit" ... Whiting gave the teams a detailed explanation about which parts they can "cut" and which parts they can't, so pretty much everybody was doing it.


Thank you for explaining it a little bit better than I did. :D

#26 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,189 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:56

Sam Michael spoke about it on Sky on the pre-quali thing. His exact words, speaking on why Lewis did an extra fast lap in FP3 were "they were trying to find the limits on the kerbs and how far they can ran off the circuit" ... Whiting gave the teams a detailed explanation about which parts they can "cut" and which parts they can't, so pretty much everybody was doing it.


I don´t mind people running some cm. extra wide on exit of some corners -the full grid was using the curb out of last corner as a traction zone, shitty flat curbs, they should be bouncy...-,

But the chicanes´ inside apexes should be enforced... not with stewarding, with proper curbs or changes in the outside surfaces.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 27 October 2012 - 22:58.


#27 ClubmanGT

ClubmanGT
  • Member

  • 1,243 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:57

I don´t mind people running some cm. extra wide on exit of some corners, but the chicane should be enforced... not with stewarding, with proper curbs or changes in the outside surfaces.


Agreed, running wide is travelling further. Cutting corners is shortening the track.

*dons Balestre Halloween mask* You must respect the distance of the race!

#28 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,037 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:57

I don´t mind people running some cm. extra wide on exit of some corners, but the chicane should be enforced... not with stewarding, with proper curbs or changes in the outside surfaces.


it's pretty simple to enforce if they want to ... just move the suspension breaking sausage kerbs inwards, closer to the track. Cause (in India at least) those are the outer barriers as far as the drivers are concerned.

#29 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,298 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 27 October 2012 - 22:58

They usually cover this sort of thing in the drivers' briefings--sometimes the stewards/governing body/whatever will make exceptions to the 'four wheels on track rule' for certain corners. There was one such exception in the Ascari chicane at Monza earlier this year--it was agreed that the drivers were allowed to place all four wheels off track to an extent at a certain point in the chicane.

If they agreed that the aforementioned sections of the track were such 'safe zones', then this is a non-issue, really.

#30 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 3,203 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 27 October 2012 - 23:11

So you're saying he weighs the same as a duck?

Blatant cheating.

Wood floats, so he must weigh more than wood!! And ducks!

#31 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 4,792 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 27 October 2012 - 23:40

Didn't the McLaren guys say that in the morning of Saturday this was discussed and it was made clear what was acceptable and what not so the McLaren drivers started experimenting with "new allowed" lines.

#32 Vic Vega

Vic Vega
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 27 October 2012 - 23:49

Sad state of affairs when this is being discussed. Pussyfication of both fans and the sport has been completed.

#33 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,189 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 28 October 2012 - 00:07

Sad state of affairs when this is being discussed. Pussyfication of both fans and the sport has been completed.


You got it all wrong.

Pussyfication of the sport is flat curbs, grippy turf, no grass and gravel around tracks.

If you look behind itchy fans asking for ridiculous penalties, there´s a good discussion showing racing fans do not want that pussyfication.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 28 October 2012 - 00:07.


#34 fisssssi

fisssssi
  • Member

  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 28 October 2012 - 00:10

To the back!

#35 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 28 October 2012 - 00:17

haha way too many eager anti vettel people on here. Should we demote every other driver that also did this because they were told it was ok by charlie? Or just scream PENALTY!!!! before knowing anything.

#36 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 2,690 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 28 October 2012 - 00:59

haha way too many eager anti vettel people on here. Should we demote every other driver that also did this because they were told it was ok by charlie? Or just scream PENALTY!!!! before knowing anything.


As it is not made official if there are any exceptions, we can only judge from the rules. And, by the rules we know - it was illegal. And breaking rules should be penalized. No matter how small or big it is. It's still a rule.

#37 Realyn

Realyn
  • Member

  • 555 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 28 October 2012 - 01:05

Have you actually watched FP1-3 ? Just asking ....

#38 Sardukar

Sardukar
  • Member

  • 433 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:02

I really hate how they make exceptions for every track. The two white lines define the edges of the track and you can't put your car entirely outside of them. Its the rules, but apparently they don't give a shit.

#39 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,792 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:18

The official classification after qualifying has been published by the FiA so no more penalties will be issued unless someone discovers a faulty gearbox tomorrow.

:wave:

The voice of reason! :up:

Check out 174d of ISC.

Advertisement

#40 canaus

canaus
  • Member

  • 162 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:59

That is the problem with the Tilke like kerbs. Charlie has given them permission, because he had no other choise.

BTW, all drivers did the same in those 2 chicanes.

#41 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:28

Sometimes I get the feeling Vettel is allowed to do what he wants to.

#42 FerrariAlonso

FerrariAlonso
  • Member

  • 409 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:37

I have just been givin from one of my friend who works on the track. He has just spoken to Charlie and that's what he said: "In our opinion cutting some parts of the track doesn't give you an advantage. The astroturf slows the car down more than the advantage you can gain with that. In the briefing all drivers were given with this piece of information and everyone should be aware of that."
Despite that some people are not delighted with that, for example Alan Jones, who is the third stewart at this weekend. "The question is whether you can gain something coming into the next corner."

I know Vettel ****ed up his first attempt, got angry because he knew he couldn't give the pole away with such a dominant car and then went it for some illegal ways.

Edited by FerrariAlonso, 28 October 2012 - 06:38.


#43 Muppetmad

Muppetmad
  • Member

  • 2,430 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:57

When the margin between pole and 2nd was 4 hundredths of a second, it can't be denied that this move potentially got Vettel pole.

Edited by Muppetmad, 28 October 2012 - 06:57.


#44 tsk19xx

tsk19xx
  • Member

  • 41 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:20

Of course it's not illegal.
If it was, Button would have been the 1st to ask for a penalty, alonso 2nd.

Edited by tsk19xx, 28 October 2012 - 07:21.


#45 krea

krea
  • Member

  • 710 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:27

Alonso got no penalty in Germany for his pole lap, so why should Vettel get one now?

#46 Realyn

Realyn
  • Member

  • 555 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:31

Alonso got no penalty in Germany for his pole lap, so why should Vettel get one now?

Come on, are you blind? It's so easy.

OP is called FerrariAlonso, not RedBullVettel. So obv penalty.

#47 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:35

:lol: Everyone did that, most cut the second corner even more than Vettel there. Someone should dig out last years thread on the exact same matter.

I know Vettel ****ed up his first attempt, got angry because he knew he couldn't give the pole away with such a dominant car and then went it for some illegal ways.


:rotfl: Too good.

#48 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:25

Of course it's not illegal.
If it was, Button would have been the 1st to ask for a penalty, alonso 2nd.

Lol

#49 sailor

sailor
  • Member

  • 585 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:26

Sometimes I get the feeling Vettel is allowed to do what he wants to.


Then why was Vettel punished in Monza for the exact same thing which Alonso did the year before and went scotfree.


#50 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,368 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:32

I have just been givin from one of my friend who works on the track. He has just spoken to Charlie and that's what he said: "In our opinion cutting some parts of the track doesn't give you an advantage. The astroturf slows the car down more than the advantage you can gain with that. In the briefing all drivers were given with this piece of information and everyone should be aware of that."
Despite that some people are not delighted with that, for example Alan Jones, who is the third stewart at this weekend. "The question is whether you can gain something coming into the next corner."

Well, it's Alan who had to decide whether or not Seb's lap was legal  ;)