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Vettel: illegal track-cutting?


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#51 joshb

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:35

If they are that bothered about track limits, put a wall or grass/gravel on the exit of the tarmac.
Give racing drivers an inch and they take a mile

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#52 Alarcon

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:47

Vettel´s driving style. He usually go wider than the rest.

However he stayed on the track (the kerbs are a part of the track). Then no way.

#53 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:48

Vettel´s driving style. He usually go wider than the rest.

However he stayed on the track (the kerbs are a part of the track). Then no way.


(1) Then he needs to change it.

(2) No they're not. The rules make that quite clear.

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.


Edited by Muppetmad, 28 October 2012 - 08:49.


#54 Sakae

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:49

I have just been givin from one of my friend who works on the track. He has just spoken to Charlie and that's what he said: "In our opinion cutting some parts of the track doesn't give you an advantage. The astroturf slows the car down more than the advantage you can gain with that. In the briefing all drivers were given with this piece of information and everyone should be aware of that."
Despite that some people are not delighted with that, for example Alan Jones, who is the third stewart at this weekend. "The question is whether you can gain something coming into the next corner."

I know Vettel ****ed up his first attempt, got angry because he knew he couldn't give the pole away with such a dominant car and then went it for some illegal ways.

This is really tiring these neverending complains by F1 most celebrated whiners like Button, Alonso, and whoever else on fans side. Just stop moaning, and get on with the damn job, I say.

Edited by Sakae, 28 October 2012 - 08:49.


#55 Alarcon

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:49

If they are that bothered about track limits, put a wall or grass/gravel on the exit of the tarmac.
Give racing drivers an inch and they take a mile


:lol: :up:

Here in Spain we usually say; "give your hand and he will pick up your watch".;)

#56 Alarcon

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:54

(1) Then he needs to change it.

(2) No they're not. The rules make that quite clear.



No. With this driving style he has become 2 WDC.

Maybe the others should change, but not the WDC.

His driving style is always to take every inch of the "outside", just as Mika did. If you remember Suzuka pole from Seb and Imola pole from Mika (two amazing pole positions ever) they used all the track. Seb did almost in every circuit and i can put you here a lot of examples, but it´s not the thread. Being with the two wheels off track is a part of the game, and there is a turf here, then no way.

Trust me, if he did something illegal, they would have penalised him. Actually, he received 3 penalties this season.;)

Edited by Alarcon, 28 October 2012 - 08:55.


#57 Niceone

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:59

Sometimes I get the feeling Vettel is allowed to do what he wants to.

Funny how in finnish broadcast before qualification they said that this move is allowed.

#58 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:03

No. With this driving style he has become 2 WDC.

Maybe the others should change, but not the WDC.

His driving style is always to take every inch of the "outside", just as Mika did. If you remember Suzuka pole from Seb and Imola pole from Mika (two amazing pole positions ever) they used all the track. Seb did almost in every circuit and i can put you here a lot of examples, but it´s not the thread. Being with the two wheels off track is a part of the game, and there is a turf here, then no way.

Trust me, if he did something illegal, they would have penalised him. Actually, he received 3 penalties this season.;)


Whether Vettel's driving style is effective or not is immaterial; first and foremost, it must be legal. If I were to cut the chicane at Monaco on the way to a pole, and I was last year's WDC, would that be right? Rules are rules, no matter who it is.

There's nothing wrong with using all the track, as long as it's what the FIA have designed as the "track". Having two wheels off the track is indeed part of the game, I agree with you there - but the rule, which I've provided for you, clearly shows that Vettel was not on the track as all four wheels were outside of the white line which defines the end of the track. The kerbs, turf or any other miscellaneous features do not define the track.

Edited by Muppetmad, 28 October 2012 - 09:06.


#59 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:04

I know Martin mentioned it during qualifying (and I think Button mentioned it as well at some point), it had been brought to Charlie's attention that certain areas were fine to run wide at and all 4 wheels leaving the track. It is not unusual that these allowances happen. Something like that would have already have been investigated by the stewards. Is Seb the only driver to have done it?


And I will happily repeat my opinion that the points pertaining to driver behavior which are discussed in the drivers' briefing should be made public. For all intents and purposes they are part of the rules for a given weekend and it's a farce that the fans are left guessing what the actual rules of the race are.

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#60 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:06

No. With this driving style he has become 2 WDC.

Maybe the others should change, but not the WDC.

His driving style is always to take every inch of the "outside", just as Mika did. If you remember Suzuka pole from Seb and Imola pole from Mika (two amazing pole positions ever) they used all the track. Seb did almost in every circuit and i can put you here a lot of examples, but it´s not the thread. Being with the two wheels off track is a part of the game, and there is a turf here, then no way.

Trust me, if he did something illegal, they would have penalised him. Actually, he received 3 penalties this season.;)


Which penalities are you speakin bout? He impeded Fernando in Suzuka, wasn't penalized, he shortcut the track yesterday, wasn't punished. (Last year he shortcutted the whole run off area in Korea just to have for one more time lap.) What irritates me about Seb is that acts as he would need to do his utmost. His car is miles ahead he just needs to sit in and cruise one and half an hour. I wouldn't call that amazing performance. I never thought this a true, but I am getting the feeling it's more about business and Red Bull seem to have taken over this postion.They can do what they want to.

"Maybe the others should change, but not the WDC." Okay, I can't believe you have even given a thought for that, cos it would mean everyone should start going for cheating, shortcutting the track.

#61 boldhakka

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:07

It's the beginning of his version of the Scandinavian flick, and the appropriate rear tyres are well inside the track in each of the photos. There's no evidence otherwise. :p

#62 jstrains

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:12

In German RTL they showed it and described as normal and introduced as a track change vs. previous year

#63 balage06

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:16

Kobayashi:
http://imageshack.us...3/indiakoba.png

Räikkönen:
http://imageshack.us...0/indiakimi.png

Hülkenberg:
http://imageshack.us...6/indiahulk.png

Grosjean:
http://imageshack.us...7/indiagros.png

#64 H2H

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:20

Kobayashi:
http://imageshack.us...3/indiakoba.png

Räikkönen:
http://imageshack.us...0/indiakimi.png

Hülkenberg:
http://imageshack.us...6/indiahulk.png

Grosjean:
http://imageshack.us...7/indiagros.png


Shocking cheating but all those drivers and practically all the grid. OMG how can they get away with all the illegal track-cutting. :eek:

Thanks to the OP for this thread some of it is just comedy gold. :lol:

#65 Henrik B

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:21

Kobayashi:
Räikkönen:
Hülkenberg:
Grosjean:


I saw lots of driver abandon their Q laps because they got that corner wrong and cut it. It's probably the hardest corner on the track to get right. If you cut it, you remove the challenge.

#66 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:25

Kobayashi:
http://imageshack.us...3/indiakoba.png

Räikkönen:
http://imageshack.us...0/indiakimi.png

Hülkenberg:
http://imageshack.us...6/indiahulk.png

Grosjean:
http://imageshack.us...7/indiagros.png


Probably they all aborted their laps cos going over that curb makes the car freaking unstable, they had to slow massively down at least.

#67 choyothe

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:26

I saw lots of driver abandon their Q laps because they got that corner wrong and cut it. It's probably the hardest corner on the track to get right. If you cut it, you remove the challenge.


No, you saw lots of drivers abandon their lap because they made a mistake (usually losing the rear before the corner and running wide) and losing massive amounts of time.

#68 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:22

Kobayashi:
http://imageshack.us...3/indiakoba.png

Räikkönen:
http://imageshack.us...0/indiakimi.png

Hülkenberg:
http://imageshack.us...6/indiahulk.png

Grosjean:
http://imageshack.us...7/indiagros.png


Grosjean's wheel touches the line. Otherwise, I agree and feel they should all have had their laps discounted if they were part of their best laps.

#69 choyothe

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:27

Waiting for multiple penalties for everyone just from what I saw in that race.

#70 EvanRainer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:39

Threads like this are really embarrassing. It really shows just how many people here don't understand even the most basic things about racing and the rules.

#71 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:40

Threads like this are really embarrassing. It really shows just how many people here don't understand even the most basic things about racing and the rules.


I'm intrigued what your opinion is now.

#72 LoudHoward

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:42

From what I saw, every lap each car seemed to go "off" the track completely at some stage, often multiple times. Lets just move on, how does this get to two pages?

#73 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:44

Threads like this are really embarrassing. It really shows just how many people here don't understand even the most basic things about racing and the rules.



Well the rules are the Kerb are not part of the track, which part are people not understanding that you have a clearer insight into?

#74 krea

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:50

Threads like this are really embarrassing. It really shows just how many people here don't understand even the most basic things about racing and the rules.


It's more about how selective people are looking at things.

Just five minutes more time and checking how other drive took the chicanes or whatever would be enough to see that was nothing wrong with Vettel.

#75 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:54

It's more about how selective people are looking at things.

Just five minutes more time and checking how other drive took the chicanes or whatever would be enough to see that was nothing wrong with Vettel.


Just because other drivers also did it doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with what Vettel did - it merely means those drivers should also have been penalised/their lap discounted if it was part of their fastest lap. Or are you suggesting that if everybody unanimously decided to straight-line the chicane at Monaco, contrary to the rules, you would have no issue with it?

Edited by Muppetmad, 28 October 2012 - 11:55.


#76 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:55

Well the rules are the Kerb are not part of the track, which part are people not understanding that you have a clearer insight into?


Things (what is allowed and what not) are clarified in the drivers briefing. And we rarely know what is being said.

#77 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:56

Things (what is allowed and what not) are clarified in the drivers briefing. And we rarely know what is being said.


I don't disagree with that but EvanRainer somehow has a clear insight into the reading of them as the people who read the rules are some how reading it wrong?

#78 EvanRainer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:58

Exactly what Diablobb81 said.

Muppetmad if you were actually following racing closer you would know that. Maybe you need to watch more racing than spend time on forums embarrassing yourself.

#79 choyothe

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:59

Just because other drivers also did it doesn't mean there was nothing wrong with what Vettel did - it merely means those drivers should also have been penalised/their lap discounted if it was part of their fastest lap. Or are you suggesting that if everybody unanimously decided to straight-line the chicane at Monaco, contrary to the rules, you would have no issue with it?


So you agree that everyone should be penalised from the race from cutting it multiple times?

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#80 EvanRainer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:00

I don't disagree with that but EvanRainer somehow has a clear insight into the reading of them as the people who read the rules are some how reading it wrong?


When did you start watching F1 yesterday?

Don't you understand that this is something that happens almost in every damn race? There is no controversy, there is no discussion to be had.

Please try to understand how stewarding at F1 races works.

#81 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:03

When did you start watching F1 yesterday?

Don't you understand that this is something that happens almost in every damn race? There is no controversy, there is no discussion to be had.

Please try to understand how stewarding at F1 races works.



Please state the rules.


As to the rest, you're only saying that due to it being Vettel, if it was Alonso or Lewis you'd be singing a different tune.

Edited by study, 28 October 2012 - 12:03.


#82 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:04

The kerbs should be considered in, the runoff not.


This.

#83 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:05

Exactly what Diablobb81 said.

Muppetmad if you were actually following racing closer you would know that. Maybe you need to watch more racing than spend time on forums embarrassing yourself.


So, you're assuming that this was clarified in the driver's meeting, when we have no access to that and you clearly have just magically presumed this because it fits your agenda, and I'm embarrassing myself? Provide evidence before making such puerile responses. You've suggested that you have a knowledge of the "rules" when you clearly don't, you're merely jumping to an unsubstantiated conclusion.

This has nothing to do with "following racing closer", it's about following the rules. If it was clarified in the driver's briefing, fair enough - but we don't know what was actually said, it's entirely possible nothing was said at all. In fact, I could make the sweeping assumption that nothing was said - it's as substantiated as your opinion.

So you agree that everyone should be penalised from the race from cutting it multiple times?


Yes.

Edited by Muppetmad, 28 October 2012 - 12:06.


#84 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:06

So, you're assuming that this was clarified in the driver's meeting, when we have no access to that and you clearly have just magically presumed this because it fits your agenda, and I'm embarrassing myself? Provide evidence before making such puerile responses. You've suggested that you have a knowledge of the "rules" when you clearly don't, you're merely jumping to an unsubstantiated conclusion.

This has nothing to do with "following racing closer", it's about following the rules. If it was clarified in the driver's briefing, fair enough - but we don't know what was actually said, it's entirely possible nothing was said at all. In fact, I could make the sweeping assumption that nothing was said - it's as substantiated as your opinion.


Thank you, more eloquently said then I ever could.

#85 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:06

This.


Sorry, but no. Cars should go with inside wheels on inside curbs and outside wheels on tarmac. Not with 4 wheels on a curb. Anyway, let´s try to get this with track changes, not silly stewarding.

#86 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:08

If a car has all 4 wheels off the track during qualifying, that lap should be wiped.

In a race my personal opinion is a warning and after the 3rd time a penalty, there is no difference with this then there is with cutting a corner.

#87 EvanRainer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:11

So, you're assuming that this was clarified in the driver's meeting, when we have no access to that and you clearly have just magically presumed this because it fits your agenda, and I'm embarrassing myself? Provide evidence before making such puerile responses. You've suggested that you have a knowledge of the "rules" when you clearly don't, you're merely jumping to an unsubstantiated conclusion.


So what is it that YOU are suggesting then?

That nothing was said in the meeting and then they decided to not punish anyone as some part of grand conspiracy?

Yeah, cause assuming that makes MUCH more sense. :rolleyes:


#88 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:11

If a car has all 4 wheels off the track during qualifying, that lap should be wiped.


That´s idiotic. I think Fernando Hockenheim quali lap was perfectly legit, and it´d be ilegal according to that, same for Vettel´s Hungary lap when it´s blatant he lost a fraction going wide.

Tracks should make sure going there is slower, but while that happens we shouldn´t start doing anything stupid.


#89 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:15

That´s idiotic. I think Fernando Hockenheim quali lap was perfectly legit, and it´d be ilegal according to that, same for Vettel´s Hungary lap when it´s blatant he lost a fraction going wide.

Tracks should make sure going there is slower, but while that happens we shouldn´t start doing anything stupid.


Why?

Is cutting corners allowed? no, so why not do the same to haing 4 wheels off the track, where do you draw a line between off the track and cutting corners.

#90 Muppetmad

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:17

So what is it that YOU are suggesting then?

That nothing was said in the meeting and then they decided to not punish anyone as some part of grand conspiracy?

Yeah, cause assuming that makes MUCH more sense. :rolleyes:


I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, I'm merely making the point that Vettel - and other drivers - cut this corner during qualifying and, if all drivers did this during their fastest laps, should have been appropriately penalised as per the rules. I'm not assuming or suggesting anything in my point, as we simply don't know what was said in the driver's briefing. If we know nothing, we can't assume anything.

Frankly, the fact that you've resorted to this straw man argument to justify your unsubstantiated assumption is making your suggestion that I'm "embarrassing" myself more and more ironic.

#91 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:18

Why?

Is cutting corners allowed? no, so why not do the same to haing 4 wheels off the track, where do you draw a line between off the track and cutting corners.


Because you fail to understand the basics. It´s ilegal to gain an advantage by leaving the track, not leaving the track itself. Your rule would bring crazy unfair stuff, and it´s nonsense frankly. Tell to FIA, they might like it.

#92 ivand911

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:18

Many drivers leave the track every race and they are not punished. I think it is accepted to be normal when you don't gain advantage. I think Alonso also left the track in one moment(in right-hander), close after his mistake with Glock I think.

#93 Atreiu

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:20

Why do they need these flat kerbs anyhow with these wide tracks?

#94 BoschKurve

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:23

Unless something was decided upon in the drivers briefing that was not made public, the rules should be followed in this regard.

As the rules state specifically kerbs are not part of the track, everyone should be penalized regardless of who they are.

However, that will not happen. I just think the circuit designs need to be altered because drivers are always constantly trying to push the boundaries of what is acceptable for how far off the track one can go. The punishment for leaving circuits nowadays is minimal compared to the old days. Any punishment really comes from the race stewards, if in fact they give any.

#95 Sakae

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:29

Because you fail to understand the basics. It´s ilegal to gain an advantage by leaving the track, not leaving the track itself. Your rule would bring crazy unfair stuff, and it´s nonsense frankly. Tell to FIA, they might like it.

Read the rule book. I have, and as I understand it, no more than two wheels can leave the track, nevermind gaining advantage in the process. I am however puzzled how FiA applies that particular part of sporting regulations in individual cases.

#96 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:34

Read the rule book. I have, and as I understand it, no more than two wheels can leave the track, nevermind gaining advantage in the process. I am however puzzled how FiA applies that particular part of sporting regulations in individual cases.


It´s illegal to leave the track with all 4 wheels and gain an advantage as a result.

And if a rule says it´s illegal to go off, frankly it´s just poorly redacted.

#97 mnmracer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:01

Unless something was decided upon in the drivers briefing that was not made public, the rules should be followed in this regard.

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?

Which scenario includes less assumptions?
Theory 1: The FIA was either sleeping (1), gave Vettel an unfair advantage (2), or gave multiple drivers an unfair advantage (3).
Theory 2: During the driver's briefing, it was decided that you were allowed to cut the track there.

Edited by mnmracer, 28 October 2012 - 16:01.


#98 Henrik B

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:23

However, that will not happen. I just think the circuit designs need to be altered because drivers are always constantly trying to push the boundaries of what is acceptable for how far off the track one can go. The punishment for leaving circuits nowadays is minimal compared to the old days. Any punishment really comes from the race stewards, if in fact they give any.


Problem with that corner is that if you make the kerbs higher a slight mistake would mean a broken suspension and possible high-speed accident. What they should do is put a marker at the apex and tell everyone that a Q lap where you cut that marker is automatically discounted, and three violations in the race equals a drive-through. It's a great corner if you are forced to stay on the track...

From the race it was obvious that corner-cutting was allowed at this race so I have no trouble with Vettel, but it should NOT be!

#99 Baddoer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:03

Never happened in Germany. I guess it's allowed.

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#100 BoschKurve

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 19:42

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?

Which scenario includes less assumptions?
Theory 1: The FIA was either sleeping (1), gave Vettel an unfair advantage (2), or gave multiple drivers an unfair advantage (3).
Theory 2: During the driver's briefing, it was decided that you were allowed to cut the track there.


Why I believe there is saying about assuming...it says something about "making an ass out of u and me" if I recall properly.

Both require assumptions...and I'm sure an astute individual as yourself would recognize the dangers of trying to get too cute with such things.

I prefer to stick with documented facts. :eek: