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Interesting quote from Hamilton...


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#1 stanga

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:58

"Still, I loved it out there today – I can't remember the last time I've pushed so far, so hard, for so long, right on the limit – it felt great."

Anyone else see this as a sad indictment of the formula? After hearing comments earlier in the season from other drivers about driving at 70% capability, the whole spectacle seems a bit neutered, with the odd flutter of excitement. For me at least, the balance of the sport is a little out of kilter.

I don't know what the answer is though...

Edited by stanga, 28 October 2012 - 17:58.


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#2 BigCHrome

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:01

We are in a predicament - either have 1 stop 2010 style races, or multiple stop drivers pussyfooting it all over the place with Pirellis made from cheese.

Neither of which is exciting.

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:04

I'm beginning to think we should reduce the amount of live info that is available to the team. Let's see the drivers adjust the clutch bite point by, uh, using the clutch paddle. Let's see them figure out the tire target laptime by driving the car. Etc.

If it's too figured out, it becomes driving-by-numbers.

#4 SpaMaster

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:05

The teams must be forced to make a compromise between qualy and race. That's the essence of good racing. It is all great to have long-lasting tyres that last the entire race. But there should be some downside to heat it up in qualy. If we did not have compulsory two-compound rule, some teams may have tried the whole race distance on hards. That would have pitted some one-stoppers against non-stoppers. There has to be some compromise.

#5 jjcale

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 19:07

Yet some drivers were so much faster on the last lap that I dont think they were all driving on the limit this race ... even though they could on these tyres today.

That was the real tragedy today IMO ... they are so aclimatised to the cheese tyres that now dont push even when they can :(

#6 Disgrace

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 19:44

The teams must be forced to make a compromise between qualy and race. That's the essence of good racing. It is all great to have long-lasting tyres that last the entire race. But there should be some downside to heat it up in qualy. If we did not have compulsory two-compound rule, some teams may have tried the whole race distance on hards. That would have pitted some one-stoppers against non-stoppers. There has to be some compromise.


What are you talking about? There already are significant compromises between quali and the race.

Q3 runners having to start on tyres they qualify means slower cars don't run in Q3 and Q2 drivers are artificially advantaged at high-wear races. Parc ferme also which means wet set-ups no longer exist and cars can't race in the wet conditions leading to SC parades.

Those two rules, as well as running on both sets of tyres (simply a compromise within the race itself) should all go.

Yet some drivers were so much faster on the last lap that I dont think they were all driving on the limit this race ... even though they could on these tyres today.

That was the real tragedy today IMO ... they are so aclimatised to the cheese tyres that now dont push even when they can :(


The teams anticipating cheese tyres means that the cars are chronically underfuelled. Even if the tyres perform better than usual, the fuel will hold them back anyway. No refuelling has also added to this new endurance F1.

Edited by Disgrace, 28 October 2012 - 20:02.


#7 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:27

Wow, did anyone see Hamilton's post race interview with the BBC? He was positively beaming, mainly on account of the tyres holding up, enabling him to push the whole race. He says that's what he trains to do, and that it's a much bigger challenge than driving around looking after your tyres (all things that I repeated ad nauseum the past two years, but was sadly very much in the minority in believing in). Maybe that's why he's been looking so glum the past couple of years, and actually had nothing to do with intra team tensions, contractual negotiations, woman trouble etc. ;)

For those who can view it, it's the video at the bottom:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20116938

#8 KingB

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:33

They have to build tyres, that work longer and better the more you push :lol:

#9 study

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:39

Wow, did anyone see Hamilton's post race interview with the BBC? He was positively beaming, mainly on account of the tyres holding up, enabling him to push the whole race.


I thought it was to do with beating Button :cat:


#10 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:44

I thought it was to do with beating Button :cat:


He beats Button more often than not but still looks like he can't much be arsed. I was obviously being facetious saying that was the reason he had been glum previously. Honestly though, I think his post race demeanour today was a product of feeling free of McLaren, but also having such a satisfying race because of the tyres, it's like it's put the spring back in his step.

#11 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:47

They have to build tyres, that work longer and better the more you push :lol:


The Bridgestones were almost like that. The faster you went, the more hysteresis occurred, offering up more chemical grip the harder you pushed. Pirelli is the opposite - the harder you push the more they degrade and the slower you go.

#12 917k

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:57

This is exactly the type of race [and the last three as well] that the ''purists'' have been aching for.

I've watched for 35 years and the 1st half of this season was superb, all gimmickry aside. The later half, well, it's F1 as most of the world has known it for decades - pole man leads every lap and no real drama.

As a non-purist, I loved tires that disintegrated after 10 laps and drivers that came on the radio screaming '' the fronts are GONE!.''

#13 as65p

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:06

I'm beginning to think we should reduce the amount of live info that is available to the team. Let's see the drivers adjust the clutch bite point by, uh, using the clutch paddle. Let's see them figure out the tire target laptime by driving the car. Etc.

If it's too figured out, it becomes driving-by-numbers.


Never thought of such an idea, but I have to say it sounds great. Not sure it would be policeable though.

#14 ZooL

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:24

"Still, I loved it out there today – I can't remember the last time I've pushed so far, so hard, for so long, right on the limit – it felt great."

Anyone else see this as a sad indictment of the formula? After hearing comments earlier in the season from other drivers about driving at 70% capability, the whole spectacle seems a bit neutered, with the odd flutter of excitement. For me at least, the balance of the sport is a little out of kilter.

I don't know what the answer is though...

Yeah he was finally 'racing the car'.

It's very sad to see in the current Formula that racers are too scared to push because of cheese tyres that will fall apart with 5 laps of driving on the limit.

The tyres should be made to allow 20 laps of pure hard driving on the limit and then start to give up.

Currently its like 1-2 hard laps, 20 laps of conserving the tyre driving to a delta time, and then facing the cliff anyway.

#15 joshb

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:25

"Still, I loved it out there today – I can't remember the last time I've pushed so far, so hard, for so long, right on the limit – it felt great."

Anyone else see this as a sad indictment of the formula? After hearing comments earlier in the season from other drivers about driving at 70% capability, the whole spectacle seems a bit neutered, with the odd flutter of excitement. For me at least, the balance of the sport is a little out of kilter.

I don't know what the answer is though...


Lewis can't have pushed in his rookie session. Every other weekend he trots out the "I ragged the car like never before/ I've never pushed so hard in my life" line or equivalent.


#16 Silverknight

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:27

We are in a predicament - either have 1 stop 2010 style races, or multiple stop drivers pussyfooting it all over the place with Pirellis made from cheese.

Neither of which is exciting.


2010 Was one of the greatest seasons the sports has seen.

#17 03011969

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:44

Lewis can't have pushed in his rookie session. Every other weekend he trots out the "I ragged the car like never before/ I've never pushed so hard in my life" line or equivalent.

Quite.

There are few certainties in life, but the ones we have are:

1 - You're born
2 - You're taxed
3 - You die
4 - Lewis Hamilton will claim he raced his heart out or some-such after each race.

I have no doubt he does race his little heart out each and every lap of every race...but I don't doubt it of the other drivers either. But they, refreshingly, don't feel the same need to constantly remind us.



#18 Masenco

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:14

Yeah he was finally 'racing the car'.

It's very sad to see in the current Formula that racers are too scared to push because of cheese tyres that will fall apart with 5 laps of driving on the limit.

The tyres should be made to allow 20 laps of pure hard driving on the limit and then start to give up.

Currently its like 1-2 hard laps, 20 laps of conserving the tyre driving to a delta time, and then facing the cliff anyway.


I wonder if it would be possible to make a set of tires that are not really effected by degredation in the first 15 lap, but then start to fall away quite quickly.

#19 PretentiousBread

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:22

Lewis can't have pushed in his rookie session. Every other weekend he trots out the "I ragged the car like never before/ I've never pushed so hard in my life" line or equivalent.



Quite.

There are few certainties in life, but the ones we have are:

1 - You're born
2 - You're taxed
3 - You die
4 - Lewis Hamilton will claim he raced his heart out or some-such after each race.

I have no doubt he does race his little heart out each and every lap of every race...but I don't doubt it of the other drivers either. But they, refreshingly, don't feel the same need to constantly remind us.


Clearly neither of you have a clue what he meant. He was referring to the challenge of driing at the limit, which hasn't been a requirement for drivers for so long because of the nature of the Pirelli tyres. This had nothing to do with bigging himself up.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 28 October 2012 - 23:24.


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#20 Skinnyguy

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 23:52

We are in a predicament - either have 1 stop 2010 style races, or multiple stop drivers pussyfooting it all over the place with Pirellis made from cheese.


Two words: Re-fuel. That way you can have 2-3 stoppers with tyres with a constant performance rate.

#21 Tardis40

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 00:12

Just wait til he gets his hands on that Mercedes. That will wipe the smile off his face.


#22 AMG FAN

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:04

Just wait til he gets his hands on that Mercedes. That will wipe the smile off his face.

am sure you know how horrible the Mercedes is compared to Hamilton...geez when would you guys stop all these ignorant "wait till he drives the Benz blah blah blah" comments,he knows more about what is going on with the Mercedes than you would ever know so am sure he knows the reality that he is going to face in 2013......normal people make long term investments,Rome was not built in a day.
i personally don't understand the move but the reality is that it's not for me to understand,you can't understand something you don't know about.

#23 Seanspeed

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:12

am sure you know how horrible the Mercedes is compared to Hamilton...geez when would you guys stop all these ignorant "wait till he drives the Benz blah blah blah" comments,he knows more about what is going on with the Mercedes than you would ever know so am sure he knows the reality that he is going to face in 2013......normal people make long term investments,Rome was not built in a day.
i personally don't understand the move but the reality is that it's not for me to understand,you can't understand something you don't know about.

There's lots of reasons to believe he'll be in a much worse place at Mercedes. Especially if his big complaint is tire wear.

He's about to have a seriously rude awakening and will probably quickly realize how good he had it at Mclaren.

Edited by Seanspeed, 29 October 2012 - 03:13.


#24 BigCHrome

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:16

There's lots of reasons to believe he'll be in a much worse place at Mercedes. Especially if his big complaint is tire wear.

He's about to have a seriously rude awakening and will probably quickly realize how good he had it at Mclaren.


He hasn't had it "good" since Ron Dennis was TD.

#25 Dino2000

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:19

The Bridgestones were almost like that. The faster you went, the more hysteresis occurred, offering up more chemical grip the harder you pushed. Pirelli is the opposite - the harder you push the more they degrade and the slower you go.


I think it was just the opposite, more electrical adhesion occurred. If you have too much hysteresis on a dry surface, your tyres simply desintegrate.

Regards,

Dino

#26 Raelene

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:53

seems a lot in here now agree with MSC from his comments earlier in the year about not being abloe to race at 100% due to the tyres... I rmemeber at the time a lot said he was just whinging...where some of us just thought he was acting like a race driver....

#27 Raelene

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 03:54

He hasn't had it "good" since Ron Dennis was TD.



He's had it a HELL OF A LOT BETTER than either Mercedes driver has had it...

#28 teejay

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:38

There's lots of reasons to believe he'll be in a much worse place at Mercedes. Especially if his big complaint is tire wear.

He's about to have a seriously rude awakening and will probably quickly realize how good he had it at Mclaren.


I suspect he already knows how good he has it and how bad Mercedes have got it atm...

The move wasnt about that.

Another topic for another time though

#29 Snic

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:32

We are in a predicament - either have 1 stop 2010 style races, or multiple stop drivers pussyfooting it all over the place with Pirellis made from cheese.

Neither of which is exciting.


Or we reduce the amount of dirty air by reintroducing ground effects.. but we've been over that one before :)

From watching the onboards the drivers didn't look like they were at the limit.. The drivers still look **** scared of getting any oversteer at all in case the cheese melts, the lack of opposite lock in f1 these days is a crime

Edited by Snic, 29 October 2012 - 09:14.


#30 stanga

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:53

I see the thread descended into an exercise in bashing Hamilton.

Hamilton's comment just add to remarks from other drivers and observations on the type of racing we are seeing.

If it helps, replace the word "Hamilton" with "Driver X". That should help reduce one's blood pressure,

#31 Kvothe

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:18

Lewis can't have pushed in his rookie session. Every other weekend he trots out the "I ragged the car like never before/ I've never pushed so hard in my life" line or equivalent.


Of course this is where I call you out and ask for such examples that have been spouted every other weekend, and where you respond that your post was a gross exaggeration.

Anyway ontopic, Hamilton's comments don't add anything new, the same arguments have been repeated verbatim in the multiple threads that arose particularly at the start of the season, and while the tyres do provide an advantage for some, the cream tends to rise to the top regardless. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel, are generally considered the best and have been arguably the best this season.

Edited by Kvothe, 29 October 2012 - 09:19.


#32 alframsey

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:39

Lewis can't have pushed in his rookie session. Every other weekend he trots out the "I ragged the car like never before/ I've never pushed so hard in my life" line or equivalent.

Yeah as a Hamilton fan I have to agree, we hear the "This was the best race of my career so far" or some equivalent line from Lewis more than any other current driver as far as I can see. As much as I love Lewis every time I hear him say something like this I think "Ah another one of your career defining races, Lewis." Pinch of salt and all that.

EDIT: to address the OP's point though I do feel we have an extremely diluted form of F1 racing, I mean this is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport yet we regularly see drivers driving well within the limits. It is deeply frustrating to see the best racers in the business all driving around playing a game of 'who's tyres will go first', there is no aggression in the modern formula. No attack.

Edited by alframsey, 29 October 2012 - 09:46.


#33 sharo

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:49

He's not even sat in a Mercedes and starts talking like Schumacher :)

#34 Lord Snooty

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:59

Quite.

There are few certainties in life, but the ones we have are:

1 - You're born
2 - You're taxed
3 - You die
4 - Lewis Hamilton will claim he raced his heart out or some-such after each race.

I have no doubt he does race his little heart out each and every lap of every race...but I don't doubt it of the other drivers either. But they, refreshingly, don't feel the same need to constantly remind us.



Interesting; are you familiar with "Godwin's Law"? Its a loose internet standard that says "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." Well, you perfectly illustrate the Autosport equivalent in that as any discussion grows longer, the probability of it devolving into a "Hamilton Bashing Discussion" approaches 1.

:stoned:


for ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

#35 prty

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:22

I'm beginning to think we should reduce the amount of live info that is available to the team. Let's see the drivers adjust the clutch bite point by, uh, using the clutch paddle. Let's see them figure out the tire target laptime by driving the car. Etc.

If it's too figured out, it becomes driving-by-numbers.


I think that, together with a ban on "online optimization" of the car (being able to change engine maps, differential settings, etc. while driving), should have been done a long time ago, as it just decreases the variability in performance.

#36 MadYarpen

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:25

It is indeed very telling, this quote. And I think mixing pirelli with refuelling would be an alternative worth thinking about.

#37 03011969

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:38

Interesting; are you familiar with "Godwin's Law"? Its a loose internet standard that says "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." Well, you perfectly illustrate the Autosport equivalent in that as any discussion grows longer, the probability of it devolving into a "Hamilton Bashing Discussion" approaches 1.

:stoned:


for ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Well aware of Godwin's law thanks...but it was you, not I, that brought Mr H into the discussion. If you wish to maintain a thin veneer of superiority for bringing it up though be my guest.

And as for comically weak attempts to thwart any criticisms of Lewis, whom I have both criticised and lauded in the past as I felt appropriate, that really was a splendid example. I am sure there are supporters of other drivers too who try to find a stance to suggest any criticism of their favourite driver is somehow immoral, but (a section of) Lewis fans do seem to suffer this dillusion more than most, and it does no credit whatsoever to the man himself. Particularly so when the comments 'devolving into a "Hamilton Bashing Discussion"' are in a thread entitled "Replying to Interesting quote from Hamilton...". What did you expect I wonder, a critique on the quotes of Niki Lauda?

Edited by 3011969, 29 October 2012 - 13:01.


#38 sharo

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:40

No self respecting race driver likes driving to delta times. No matter how hard some try to convince us it is the real mastercraft nowadays.

#39 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:50

at some point on the radio his engineer told him "you're the fastest car on track" to which he replied something in the line of "I don't know how long will the tyres last this way"
drivers are obsessed about not pushing too hard.

the fact that so many drivers were posting fastest lap in the last laps just shows that
a) the tyres still had plenty of life in them this time around (and some probably took too much care early on)
b) the less fuel they had, the faster the cars went..surprise surprise, we haven't seen this around for about 1-2 years

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#40 PretentiousBread

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 16:57

Or we reduce the amount of dirty air by reintroducing ground effects.. but we've been over that one before :)

From watching the onboards the drivers didn't look like they were at the limit.. The drivers still look **** scared of getting any oversteer at all in case the cheese melts, the lack of opposite lock in f1 these days is a crime


I think they were a lot closer to the limit than before though. Just looking at the fastest lap pattern, it was very encouraging:

Button's fastest lap of the race was 2.7s slower than his qualifying time, however around 1s of that is accounted for by unlimited DRS use in qualifying, then another 0.5-0.7s is accounted for by the slower prime tyre he set his fastest lap on compared to the option tyre in qualifying, then the rest of it is surely accounted for by the fact that his tyres had done 33 laps on them when he set that fastest lap. On top of that, there is probably certain fuel mix settings they have for qualifying that aren't available to them in the race. All in all, the defecit between qualifying and race laps was considerably lower than usual, especially when you factor in just how many laps the tyres had done when they set their fastest laps of the race.

#41 Darth Sidious

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 17:13

It is indeed very telling, this quote. And I think mixing pirelli with refuelling would be an alternative worth thinking about.


Tending to agree, plus the length of time refuelling takes adds a further element of tension to the current "blink and you miss it" pit stops.

:up:

#42 F1Champion

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 19:33

No self respecting race driver likes driving to delta times. No matter how hard some try to convince us it is the real mastercraft nowadays.


QFT.

#43 Kucki

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 20:12

2010 Was one of the greatest seasons the sports has seen.



Watching since 1988 and I agree with you