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Formula 1 teams told trick brake systems are illegal


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#1 AvranaKern

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:42

I really wonder which team Red Bull was referring. Anyone out there having an idead?

Formula 1's teams have been told by the FIA that they cannot run trick brake systems that react to temperature to boost cooling during races, following a complaint by Red Bull.

AUTOSPORT can reveal that Red Bull wrote to motor racing's governing body ahead of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix to seek clarification on the use of thermal energy devices within the air duct of the brake system.

The team contended that attempts to use either a bimetallic strip - which would change shape to open and close off cooling ducts depending on the temperature of the brake friction material - or a thermal actuator was a breach of the regulations.

In the letter, a copy of which has been seen by AUTOSPORT, Red Bull argued: "Use of such technology via either of the examples offered or similar devices will change the brake system, thus including the air duct, and are not reacting to the driver's direct physical input and are not under his complete control at all times as required by Article 11.1.4 [of the F1 technical regulations].

"RBR therefore contend such systems are in breach of the 2012 F1 Technical Regulations and seek your opinion on the matter."

Article 11.1.4 of the regulations states: "Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system whilst the car is moving must be made by the driver's direct physical input, may not be pre-set and must be under his complete control at all times."

The FIA duly responded to Red Bull on Friday confirming that it agreed with its view that the use of such systems would be a breach of the rules.

In a letter that was forwarded to all teams and seen by AUTOSPORT, the FIA's Charlie Whiting said: "In our view movement of a bimetallic strip and thermal actuator within the air duct as you describe would not be made by the driver's direct physical input, hence we believe such a system would contravene Article 11.1.4 of the F1 Technical Regulations."

AUTOSPORT understands that Red Bull's complaint was made after suspicions that at least one of its main rivals was using the concept on its car.

However, high levels sources at Red Bull's main rivals insist that they have never used the concept and agree that doing so would be a breach of the rules.

Red Bull's dialogue with the FIA shows how focused the outfit is on ensuring that it maintains every possible competitive advantage as it makes a push to win its third consecutive championship double.



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#2 showtime

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 18:42

It seems brakes systems are not the only part on need of clarification. Double oil and water tanks?

#3 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:06

Trolling and responses to it removed. That was nine posts. It leaves only two.

Next time, please report trolling.

#4 BigCHrome

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:09

Sounds like something Lotus or McLaren would have.

#5 F1Champion

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:22

Its a very interesting and simple solution to brake temperatures - it will probably come out more over the weekend, of who has it.

One thing that amazes me is that this season the top teams have nearly done away with brake cooling ducts - the Ferrari solution is pretty impressive compared with previous years, I think McLaren have adapted something similar as well.

#6 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:34

It's the Williams' and Sauber's I imagine.

#7 artista

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:39

Sounds like something Lotus or McLaren would have.

Lotus is no menace for Red Bull, and let's be realistic in F1 you only report somebody else if you get some advantage from it, especially with three races to go and while you're fighting for the championship. If it were something Lotus has, they would just copy it.
The only teams who could fight with Red Bull at the moment are McLaren and Ferrari. And even in McLaren case, I'm not so sure it would be of Red Bull interest to report them.

EDIT: of course, in F1 there are so many loonies, that we might end up discovering that's the trick HRT has brought to Abu Dhabi in order to solve their problem with the brakes :p

EDIT 2: oops! ClubmanGT was faster than me

Edited by artista, 02 November 2012 - 19:41.


#8 ClubmanGT

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:39

It's HRT guys. RBR were concerned that the only thing holding them back in India was a malfunctioning brake system and they're panicking.

#9 cokeb

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:42

It could be a "pre-emptive strike" from RB.

#10 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:28

Seems the major teams all denied employing this, I have to say though that the innovation and idea of using this to cool brakes are quite interesting and really show how the technical departments at the teams really leave no stone unturned.

:cool:

#11 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:39

Yeah, it's a great shame it's gone because this sort of thing is exactly what I love about F1.

#12 wingwalker

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:46

That's interesting, especially that it's sounds like it's pretty obviously illegal.

#13 Kyo

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:16

There is no way to cover everything in the rules book, so teams will continue to exploit something and other teams will protest when they find out... nothing new.

#14 F.M.

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:47

That's interesting, especially that it's sounds like it's pretty obviously illegal.

It's only illegal when you get caught.

#15 ashley313

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:05

I thought McLaren had some kind of system for opening and closing a sort of vent on their brakes to allow the heat from the brakes to bring the tires up to temp quickly? Was discussed from maybe the second race of the season, I think it was supposed to be adjustable at the pit stop or something.

#16 BillBald

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:31

I really wonder which team Red Bull was referring. Anyone out there having an idead?


From the article you quote, it sounds as though it would be legal if the driver was making the adjustment, unless I'm missing something.

Can we look forward to yet another button on the steering wheel?

EDIT: actually on reflection it could maybe be regarded as a moveable aero device.


Edited by BillBald, 02 November 2012 - 22:44.


#17 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:34

I really wonder which team Red Bull was referring. Anyone out there having an idead?


Source Ferrari?

Once more...... please... :lol:

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 02 November 2012 - 22:34.


#18 Bloggsworth

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:38

Hmm - The harder the driver presses the pedal, the hotter the brakes get; if the driver does not press the pedal, then the brakes don't heat up - So, are the devices controlled by input from the driver?

#19 Zava

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:44

From the article you quote, it sounds as though it would be legal if the driver was making the adjustment, unless I'm missing something.

Can we look forward to yet another button on the steering wheel?

it wouldn't be legal if the driver adjusted a vent, that would be driver adjusted aero.

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#20 BillBald

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:46

it wouldn't be legal if the driver adjusted a vent, that would be driver adjusted aero.


I actually amended my post just before you posted!



#21 AvranaKern

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:48

Hmm - The harder the driver presses the pedal, the hotter the brakes get; if the driver does not press the pedal, then the brakes don't heat up - So, are the devices controlled by input from the driver?

I guess it must be somewhat related to strip or actuator. Your interpretation seems to me, err, a bit far fetched. Although, as BillBald suggested, it could be activated by a switch or pedal by the driver, thus making it legal, however in this case driver must be checking or told about the brake temperature all the time to make necessary adjustments. It seems hell out of a burden on the already bur(de)ned driver. Soon, we might start to use drivers as a means for sensors :)

In parallel universe, perhaps Red Bull did test the FiA for the legality of such technology. Perhaps they have been designing that system already.

#22 Zava

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:56

I actually amended my post just before you posted!

damn I'm slow. :blush:

#23 Crestie

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 23:03

In parallel universe, perhaps Red Bull did test the FiA for the legality of such technology. Perhaps they have been designing that system already.

That doesn't really fit their modus operandi thus far. Generally they use something illegally until the FIA bans it (extreme engine maps) or modifies their tests to catch it (flexi wing/nose pylons).

More likely they heard a rumour about it and jumped in. Personally I'm disappointed; rather like the mass damper of the past, a bimetallic strip actuator is both genius and inexpensive. Everything F1 strives to be (according to their PR).

#24 pingu666

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 00:50

maybe there doing something without bimetal ?

there was a thing linked on theverge.com a week or too ago about a building using bimetals for temp regulation :)

#25 BigCHrome

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:08

That doesn't really fit their modus operandi thus far. Generally they use something illegally until the FIA bans it (extreme engine maps) or modifies their tests to catch it (flexi wing/nose pylons).

More likely they heard a rumour about it and jumped in. Personally I'm disappointed; rather like the mass damper of the past, a bimetallic strip actuator is both genius and inexpensive. Everything F1 strives to be (according to their PR).


Not if the metals are unobtanium 1 and unobtaium 2.

#26 AlexS

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:56

I have to say though that the innovation and idea of using this to cool brakes are quite interesting and really show how the technical departments at the teams really leave no stone unturned.


Yeah, it's a great shame it's gone because this sort of thing is exactly what I love about F1.


Yep. For me too.

#27 pingu666

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 02:18

Not if the metals are unobtanium 1 and unobtaium 2.


money isnt a issue at rbr  ;)

#28 packapoo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:49

It's HRT guys. RBR were concerned that the only thing holding them back in India was a malfunctioning brake system and they're panicking.


:lol:

#29 packapoo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:52

Yeah, it's a great shame it's gone because this sort of thing is exactly what I love about F1.


Sure is a shame brilliant outside the square, innovative thinking is banned in this sport.

#30 Jimisgod

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:54

Did Newey think of it? No? Then it is illegal.

#31 ViMaMo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:28

How did RB arrive at the information?

#32 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:55

According to AMuS:

In den letzten Tage erhielt Whiting besonders viele Mails aus Maranello. Ferrari schickte kürzlich zwei Anfragen an die FIA. Die erste drehte sich um die Bremsen. Technikchef Pat Fry wollte wissen, ob man dort Materialien aus zwei Metallen mit unterschiedlicher Wärmeausdehnung einsetzen dürfe. Man könnte sich da folgende Lösung vorstellen: In einem bestimmten Temperaturbereich öffnet sich eine Spalte, weil sich eines der beiden Metalle stärker verformt. Diese Spalte könnte man zur Kühlung benutzen.

Die FIA schrieb an Ferrari zurück, dass dies nach Artikel 11.1.4 des technischen Reglements verboten sei. Dort steht: "Jede Modulation des Bremsystems während der Fahrt darf nur durch direkten physischen Input des Fahrers vorgenommen werden und muss immer unter seiner Kontrolle bleiben."


"During the past days Whiting received lots of email from Maranello. Ferrari sent 2 requests for clarifications: The first one was about the brakes. Pat Fry wanted to know whether one could use bimetal parts with different temperature expansion: the requestor could imagine a solution where a slit opens in a certain range of temperature because one of the metals expands more. This slit could be used for cooling.

FIA replied that this is illegal according to 11.1.4, which says that any modulation of the brake system must only happen in reaction to direct physical driver input under his control."

AMuS thinks that

Wenn man wirklich Red Bull im Verdacht hatte, etwas Verbotenes zu tun, ging der Schuss nach hinten los.


"If [Ferrari] really were suspicious of RBR, the shot back-fired". I guess that's in reference to RBR's own clarification request (in retaliation?) getting it banned.

The second request (edit: thread) according to AMuS was that SF wanted to know whether it's legal to pump lubricant between different containers, either in parc fermé or on track - apparently Renault cars are doing the latter to help with lubrication. FIA answered that the number of oil containers is not regulated and in parc fermé one can remove lubricant but must return it to the same container (hence cannot use it to change balance), and on track it is legal to pump if strictly to help with lubrication (again not to change weight balance or rake, FIA would consider this a movable aero device)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 03 November 2012 - 15:16.