Jump to content


Photo

Formula 1 teams told trick brake systems are illegal


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 ali.unal

ali.unal
  • Member

  • 3,202 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:42

I really wonder which team Red Bull was referring. Anyone out there having an idead?

Formula 1's teams have been told by the FIA that they cannot run trick brake systems that react to temperature to boost cooling during races, following a complaint by Red Bull.

AUTOSPORT can reveal that Red Bull wrote to motor racing's governing body ahead of the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix to seek clarification on the use of thermal energy devices within the air duct of the brake system.

The team contended that attempts to use either a bimetallic strip - which would change shape to open and close off cooling ducts depending on the temperature of the brake friction material - or a thermal actuator was a breach of the regulations.

In the letter, a copy of which has been seen by AUTOSPORT, Red Bull argued: "Use of such technology via either of the examples offered or similar devices will change the brake system, thus including the air duct, and are not reacting to the driver's direct physical input and are not under his complete control at all times as required by Article 11.1.4 [of the F1 technical regulations].

"RBR therefore contend such systems are in breach of the 2012 F1 Technical Regulations and seek your opinion on the matter."

Article 11.1.4 of the regulations states: "Any change to, or modulation of, the brake system whilst the car is moving must be made by the driver's direct physical input, may not be pre-set and must be under his complete control at all times."

The FIA duly responded to Red Bull on Friday confirming that it agreed with its view that the use of such systems would be a breach of the rules.

In a letter that was forwarded to all teams and seen by AUTOSPORT, the FIA's Charlie Whiting said: "In our view movement of a bimetallic strip and thermal actuator within the air duct as you describe would not be made by the driver's direct physical input, hence we believe such a system would contravene Article 11.1.4 of the F1 Technical Regulations."

AUTOSPORT understands that Red Bull's complaint was made after suspicions that at least one of its main rivals was using the concept on its car.

However, high levels sources at Red Bull's main rivals insist that they have never used the concept and agree that doing so would be a breach of the rules.

Red Bull's dialogue with the FIA shows how focused the outfit is on ensuring that it maintains every possible competitive advantage as it makes a push to win its third consecutive championship double.



Advertisement

#2 showtime

showtime
  • Member

  • 2,585 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 02 November 2012 - 18:42

It seems brakes systems are not the only part on need of clarification. Double oil and water tanks?

#3 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,174 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:06

Trolling and responses to it removed. That was nine posts. It leaves only two.

Next time, please report trolling.

#4 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:09

Sounds like something Lotus or McLaren would have.

#5 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 2,922 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:22

Its a very interesting and simple solution to brake temperatures - it will probably come out more over the weekend, of who has it.

One thing that amazes me is that this season the top teams have nearly done away with brake cooling ducts - the Ferrari solution is pretty impressive compared with previous years, I think McLaren have adapted something similar as well.

#6 TheWilliamzer

TheWilliamzer
  • Member

  • 687 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:34

It's the Williams' and Sauber's I imagine.

#7 artista

artista
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,154 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:39

Sounds like something Lotus or McLaren would have.

Lotus is no menace for Red Bull, and let's be realistic in F1 you only report somebody else if you get some advantage from it, especially with three races to go and while you're fighting for the championship. If it were something Lotus has, they would just copy it.
The only teams who could fight with Red Bull at the moment are McLaren and Ferrari. And even in McLaren case, I'm not so sure it would be of Red Bull interest to report them.

EDIT: of course, in F1 there are so many loonies, that we might end up discovering that's the trick HRT has brought to Abu Dhabi in order to solve their problem with the brakes :p

EDIT 2: oops! ClubmanGT was faster than me

Edited by artista, 02 November 2012 - 19:41.


#8 ClubmanGT

ClubmanGT
  • Member

  • 1,191 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:39

It's HRT guys. RBR were concerned that the only thing holding them back in India was a malfunctioning brake system and they're panicking.

#9 cokeb

cokeb
  • Member

  • 114 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:42

It could be a "pre-emptive strike" from RB.

#10 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 8,001 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:28

Seems the major teams all denied employing this, I have to say though that the innovation and idea of using this to cool brakes are quite interesting and really show how the technical departments at the teams really leave no stone unturned.

:cool:

#11 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,174 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:39

Yeah, it's a great shame it's gone because this sort of thing is exactly what I love about F1.

#12 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,326 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:46

That's interesting, especially that it's sounds like it's pretty obviously illegal.

#13 Kyo

Kyo
  • Member

  • 778 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:16

There is no way to cover everything in the rules book, so teams will continue to exploit something and other teams will protest when they find out... nothing new.

#14 F.M.

F.M.
  • Member

  • 5,577 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:47

That's interesting, especially that it's sounds like it's pretty obviously illegal.

It's only illegal when you get caught.

#15 ashley313

ashley313
  • Member

  • 224 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:05

I thought McLaren had some kind of system for opening and closing a sort of vent on their brakes to allow the heat from the brakes to bring the tires up to temp quickly? Was discussed from maybe the second race of the season, I think it was supposed to be adjustable at the pit stop or something.

#16 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,269 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:31

I really wonder which team Red Bull was referring. Anyone out there having an idead?


From the article you quote, it sounds as though it would be legal if the driver was making the adjustment, unless I'm missing something.

Can we look forward to yet another button on the steering wheel?

EDIT: actually on reflection it could maybe be regarded as a moveable aero device.


Edited by BillBald, 02 November 2012 - 22:44.


#17 Kimiraikkonen

Kimiraikkonen
  • Member

  • 2,238 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:34

I really wonder which team Red Bull was referring. Anyone out there having an idead?


Source Ferrari?

Once more...... please... :lol:

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 02 November 2012 - 22:34.


#18 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,425 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:38

Hmm - The harder the driver presses the pedal, the hotter the brakes get; if the driver does not press the pedal, then the brakes don't heat up - So, are the devices controlled by input from the driver?

#19 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:44

From the article you quote, it sounds as though it would be legal if the driver was making the adjustment, unless I'm missing something.

Can we look forward to yet another button on the steering wheel?

it wouldn't be legal if the driver adjusted a vent, that would be driver adjusted aero.

Advertisement

#20 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,269 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:46

it wouldn't be legal if the driver adjusted a vent, that would be driver adjusted aero.


I actually amended my post just before you posted!



#21 ali.unal

ali.unal
  • Member

  • 3,202 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:48

Hmm - The harder the driver presses the pedal, the hotter the brakes get; if the driver does not press the pedal, then the brakes don't heat up - So, are the devices controlled by input from the driver?

I guess it must be somewhat related to strip or actuator. Your interpretation seems to me, err, a bit far fetched. Although, as BillBald suggested, it could be activated by a switch or pedal by the driver, thus making it legal, however in this case driver must be checking or told about the brake temperature all the time to make necessary adjustments. It seems hell out of a burden on the already bur(de)ned driver. Soon, we might start to use drivers as a means for sensors :)

In parallel universe, perhaps Red Bull did test the FiA for the legality of such technology. Perhaps they have been designing that system already.

#22 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 02 November 2012 - 22:56

I actually amended my post just before you posted!

damn I'm slow. :blush:

#23 Crestie

Crestie
  • Member

  • 91 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 November 2012 - 23:03

In parallel universe, perhaps Red Bull did test the FiA for the legality of such technology. Perhaps they have been designing that system already.

That doesn't really fit their modus operandi thus far. Generally they use something illegally until the FIA bans it (extreme engine maps) or modifies their tests to catch it (flexi wing/nose pylons).

More likely they heard a rumour about it and jumped in. Personally I'm disappointed; rather like the mass damper of the past, a bimetallic strip actuator is both genius and inexpensive. Everything F1 strives to be (according to their PR).

#24 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,591 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 November 2012 - 00:50

maybe there doing something without bimetal ?

there was a thing linked on theverge.com a week or too ago about a building using bimetals for temp regulation :)

#25 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:08

That doesn't really fit their modus operandi thus far. Generally they use something illegally until the FIA bans it (extreme engine maps) or modifies their tests to catch it (flexi wing/nose pylons).

More likely they heard a rumour about it and jumped in. Personally I'm disappointed; rather like the mass damper of the past, a bimetallic strip actuator is both genius and inexpensive. Everything F1 strives to be (according to their PR).


Not if the metals are unobtanium 1 and unobtaium 2.

#26 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,301 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:56

I have to say though that the innovation and idea of using this to cool brakes are quite interesting and really show how the technical departments at the teams really leave no stone unturned.


Yeah, it's a great shame it's gone because this sort of thing is exactly what I love about F1.


Yep. For me too.

#27 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,591 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 November 2012 - 02:18

Not if the metals are unobtanium 1 and unobtaium 2.


money isnt a issue at rbr  ;)

#28 packapoo

packapoo
  • Member

  • 731 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:49

It's HRT guys. RBR were concerned that the only thing holding them back in India was a malfunctioning brake system and they're panicking.


:lol:

#29 packapoo

packapoo
  • Member

  • 731 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 03 November 2012 - 03:52

Yeah, it's a great shame it's gone because this sort of thing is exactly what I love about F1.


Sure is a shame brilliant outside the square, innovative thinking is banned in this sport.

#30 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 2,475 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:54

Did Newey think of it? No? Then it is illegal.

#31 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,011 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 03 November 2012 - 06:28

How did RB arrive at the information?

#32 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,590 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:55

According to AMuS:

In den letzten Tage erhielt Whiting besonders viele Mails aus Maranello. Ferrari schickte kürzlich zwei Anfragen an die FIA. Die erste drehte sich um die Bremsen. Technikchef Pat Fry wollte wissen, ob man dort Materialien aus zwei Metallen mit unterschiedlicher Wärmeausdehnung einsetzen dürfe. Man könnte sich da folgende Lösung vorstellen: In einem bestimmten Temperaturbereich öffnet sich eine Spalte, weil sich eines der beiden Metalle stärker verformt. Diese Spalte könnte man zur Kühlung benutzen.

Die FIA schrieb an Ferrari zurück, dass dies nach Artikel 11.1.4 des technischen Reglements verboten sei. Dort steht: "Jede Modulation des Bremsystems während der Fahrt darf nur durch direkten physischen Input des Fahrers vorgenommen werden und muss immer unter seiner Kontrolle bleiben."


"During the past days Whiting received lots of email from Maranello. Ferrari sent 2 requests for clarifications: The first one was about the brakes. Pat Fry wanted to know whether one could use bimetal parts with different temperature expansion: the requestor could imagine a solution where a slit opens in a certain range of temperature because one of the metals expands more. This slit could be used for cooling.

FIA replied that this is illegal according to 11.1.4, which says that any modulation of the brake system must only happen in reaction to direct physical driver input under his control."

AMuS thinks that

Wenn man wirklich Red Bull im Verdacht hatte, etwas Verbotenes zu tun, ging der Schuss nach hinten los.


"If [Ferrari] really were suspicious of RBR, the shot back-fired". I guess that's in reference to RBR's own clarification request (in retaliation?) getting it banned.

The second request (edit: thread) according to AMuS was that SF wanted to know whether it's legal to pump lubricant between different containers, either in parc fermé or on track - apparently Renault cars are doing the latter to help with lubrication. FIA answered that the number of oil containers is not regulated and in parc fermé one can remove lubricant but must return it to the same container (hence cannot use it to change balance), and on track it is legal to pump if strictly to help with lubrication (again not to change weight balance or rake, FIA would consider this a movable aero device)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 03 November 2012 - 15:16.