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Mclaren MP4-27 Part IV


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#351 stevesingo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:24


not really. The design process is simulation (including wind-tunnel, rigs etc) not really historical data, because they have no data on that particular package. A specific suspension setup will not influence two aerodynamically different cars the same. Driver input comes after the car starts running, before it does it's basically the designer trying to optimize drag vs downforce and grip vs tyre degradation. Now if the car comes up and you have say an issue heating up the tyres (that's the objective issue) the designers and engineers will try to figure out a way to solve that problem. There may be 5 different ways to solve it, that's where driver input comes into play and you get into the subjective solutions. It's basically the whole forks in the road thing. Every change you make puts you on a different fork in the development process.


Simulation is not based entirely on fact. There are assumptions made about variables that cannot be predicted.

If we look at front wheel camber change as a function of suspension travel, king pin inclination and castor angle.

There will be data available with sufficent resolution across different circumstances that will indicate load on the tyre for a given downforce and car mass with a set of enviromental conditions. From the load we can predict temps. Lets say the proportion of that data is 50/50. The simulation predicts a temp of 90 for one driver and 60 for the other and we have an average of 75. Let's also say that the optimum window is 60-90 so all is good. Split the proportion 80/20 and we have an average of 84deg. From this data the engineers change the the rate of camber change in the front suspension in order to aim for the centre sweet spot and in simulations record a 5deg reduction in tyre temps.

One driver is OK at his 90 now becoming 85, the other isn't as his 60 is now 55 and out of the window.

Simulation is only as good as the data you feed it and the weight given to each data set.




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#352 stevesingo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:24

not really. The design process is simulation (including wind-tunnel, rigs etc) not really historical data, because they have no data on that particular package. A specific suspension setup will not influence two aerodynamically different cars the same. Driver input comes after the car starts running, before it does it's basically the designer trying to optimize drag vs downforce and grip vs tyre degradation. Now if the car comes up and you have say an issue heating up the tyres (that's the objective issue) the designers and engineers will try to figure out a way to solve that problem. There may be 5 different ways to solve it, that's where driver input comes into play and you get into the subjective solutions. It's basically the whole forks in the road thing. Every change you make puts you on a different fork in the development process.


Simulation is not based entirely on fact. There are assumptions made about variables that cannot be predicted.

If we look at front wheel camber change as a function of suspension travel, king pin inclination and castor angle.

There will be data available with sufficent resolution across different circumstances that will indicate load on the tyre for a given downforce and car mass with a set of enviromental conditions. From the load we can predict temps. Lets say the proportion of that data is 50/50. The simulation predicts a temp of 90 for one driver and 60 for the other and we have an average of 75. Let's also say that the optimum window is 60-90 so all is good. Split the proportion 80/20 and we have an average of 84deg. From this data the engineers change the the rate of camber change in the front suspension in order to aim for the centre sweet spot and in simulations record a 5deg reduction in tyre temps.

One driver is OK at his 90 now becoming 85, the other isn't as his 60 is now 55 and out of the window.

Simulation is only as good as the data you feed it and the weight given to each data set.




#353 jrg19

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:49

William Esler ‏@WilliamEslerF1
new front wing for mclaren? http://pic.twitter.com/YAsHwTdf
1:26 PM - 7 Nov 12

https://twitter.com/...169848298606593


Interesting, a lot more like the Lotus wing on the inner side.

#354 jrg19

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 15:52

http://www.formula1....ms1207no205.jpg
http://www.formula1....ms1207no206.jpg

More pictures of the new front wing.

#355 Requiem84

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:06

A point about the MP4-27 and 26 regarding the speed differential between Hamilton and Button that has been mentioned before, seems to be overlooked again. As this is a thread about the car, I will mainly talk about the car, but I will have to point out some (obvious) things about the drivers as well.

Why does Button say the 27 is the worst car he has had at Mclaren? Its and interesting remark, and one that does tell you a lot about Button. Button is an excellent driver, albeit a driver with certain needs that need to be satisfied to reach the optimum. What are Buttons qualities regarding his driving style?

- He is very fast when the car suits him. Problaby a little bit slower than Hamilton, but definitely not a lot.
- He is very good at managing the tires, especially the rears. But here too, he can only do that in a car that suits him.

So what car suits Button? A stable and predictable car. Especially at the rear. If he has a neutral handling car, Button is a class act. He is not very good at coping with inconsistencies or more importantly oversteer. My assumption is, that he isnt as good as Hamilton when the car is more or less sliding. Hence, his quality to be easy on the tires. He simply slides less.

Now, back to the car: at the end of 2011, the 26 had massive amounts of downforce at the rear. The Exhaust Blown Diffuser was fully optimised, giving the car loads of downforce on entry, as well as exit. This fits Buttons driving style perfectly. With a stable rear end, he had much more confidence on entry, and with his smooth driving style he was fast and easy on the tires. The 25 actually had a lot of rear downforce as well when they worked out the DDD. When they still werent on it, like Silverstone 2010, the car was hugely unpredictable and Button was plainly slow.

In an interview, which you can find on youtube somewhere, Button and Hamilton are both asked what they have learned from eachother in their first season. Button plainly says: what Hamilton can do with a car that has no optimal balance is unbelievable.

Now, lets get back to the 27. No EBD, no DDD, no traction control, not a big rear wing a la 2008. Quite simply, cars lack downforce at the rear. This is visible in the laptimes as well. Pole position times are 1-2 seconds slower than last year. The only thing you can to balance this loss of rear downforce, is take some downforce of the front. Possibly a reason why Button complained about an understeery car this season a few times. Hamilton, quite simply, has to take of less downforce of the front, and manages the oversteer, even uses it in slower corners like Abu Dhabi and Korea. I think this is the reason why Hamilton is outperforming Button on such a large scale this year. On slower tracks like Singapore and Abu Dhabi, this difference is magnified, giving Hamilton an edge of around 0,5-0,8. in Q.

What does this tell us about the 28? If Mclaren fails to come up with a ingenious solution to find a lot of rear downforce, Button will be as fast as he is this year. With a lack of rear downforce, he fails to manage the tires as good as he did in 2011 as well. Instead of influencing the design of the car, Button limits it.

I have been a Mclaren fan since as early as 97, but with Button (who is a very likeable character, but just not one of the great drivers of his era), leading the team, I feel Mclaren made a big guess. If they built a car that is not rear downforce dependant, Button will perform. However, its a fact that you wont get it right every year.

Good luck to Mclaren and off to the Mercedes thread I guess?;)

#356 ElDictatore

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:10

Well, they've been saying that JB's input is exceptional. There are various interviews from Lowe, Neal etc. saying that they value his input and follow his direction, blindly.
The 27 was designed with JB in mind, he was there over the winter in the factory while LH was sent on holiday for a month or so, also repeated multiple times in various interviews.
He was their main developer.
For him now to come out and say that the 27 is the worst car since 2010 while his teammate is doing "rather well" with it is not very teamplayer like, to put it mildly.


To be fair, he actually said that this season was his worst at McLaren and that this car just did not suit him. Which i have to agree seems odd when you think what he said about the car at the beginning of the season. I actually rate Button pretty high, he CAN be really fast, maybe faster than everyone else, but only if everything is just about perfect. He leaves a big question mark behind himself this season. We'll have to see what happens next season.

#357 engel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 16:52

To be fair, he actually said that this season was his worst at McLaren and that this car just did not suit him. Which i have to agree seems odd when you think what he said about the car at the beginning of the season. I actually rate Button pretty high, he CAN be really fast, maybe faster than everyone else, but only if everything is just about perfect. He leaves a big question mark behind himself this season. We'll have to see what happens next season.


The car is not same as in the start of the season, it changed a lot in an effort to make it kind(er) on the tyres. Same applies to every other team of course. If you like the inverse happened at Ferrari, in an attempt to sort out the tyres they gave their car a rear end which helps Massa a bit but doesn't really provide Alonso with more outright performance, just better tyre management

#358 amppatel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:06

To be fair, he actually said that this season was his worst at McLaren and that this car just did not suit him. Which i have to agree seems odd when you think what he said about the car at the beginning of the season. I actually rate Button pretty high, he CAN be really fast, maybe faster than everyone else, but only if everything is just about perfect. He leaves a big question mark behind himself this season. We'll have to see what happens next season.


Why do people say this? I don't understand, when has he been faster than anyone else? If you put LH and JB into any car that is the same, even if its perfectly suited to JB, Lewis will out qualify him.

#359 engel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:12

Why do people say this? I don't understand, when has he been faster than anyone else? If you put LH and JB into any car that is the same, even if its perfectly suited to JB, Lewis will out qualify him.


Senna outqualified Prost by (if I am not mistaken) 28 to 4 in their 2 seasons together at McLaren. Championships were much more closely run than that both seasons. Moral of the story, one lap pace is important, but it's by no means everything.

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#360 oligc94

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:24

Senna outqualified Prost by (if I am not mistaken) 28 to 4 in their 2 seasons together at McLaren. Championships were much more closely run than that both seasons. Moral of the story, one lap pace is important, but it's by no means everything.


True, although the reliability, aero-dependency and tyres of this era mean that qualifying at the front is perhaps even more vital than it was during the Senna/Prost era.


#361 f1rules

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:41

right on schedule :-) Joke aside this is i think, normally the time of the year when mclaren introduce a new front wing, because it is the one they base next years car on


http://www.formula1....ms1207no205.jpg
http://www.formula1....ms1207no206.jpg

More pictures of the new front wing.


Edited by f1rules, 07 November 2012 - 17:42.


#362 robybobey

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 18:30

Enjoy

http://img2.auto-mot...0c0f-642944.jpg
http://img3.auto-mot...594e-642945.jpg
http://img4.auto-mot...6a72-642957.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...eada-642989.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...c989-642956.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...23e1-643077.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...cace-642954.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...8cc1-642955.jpg

Gary Paffett concluded his programme today, running in the morning’s session and continuing the work he kicked off yesterday afternoon. The team was putting more miles on a number of aerodynamic developments, including a new front wing, and evaluating revised suspension geometry, with an eye towards monitoring resultant tyrewear, degradation and heating.

Oliver Turvey continued the programme into the afternoon, clocking an impressive 62 laps.


http://www.mclaren.c...-dhabi--day-two

Edited by robybobey, 07 November 2012 - 18:41.


#363 Bartel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:06

Senna outqualified Prost by (if I am not mistaken) 28 to 4 in their 2 seasons together at McLaren. Championships were much more closely run than that both seasons. Moral of the story, one lap pace is important, but it's by no means everything.

To be fair, in the 2 seasons you speak of, McLaren easily had the best car, and it was alot easier to overtake in those days than it is now.

#364 Bartel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:13

Also, I am still surprised at jsut how basic the under monocoque design of the deflectors is, when you compare it to the likes of the red bull ferrari and lotus, who obviously have been doing it for a few years now, but I can't help but think McLaren really need to focus there for next years car too cos they have alot to gain from underbody aero and that will be their biggest opportunity to have a really fast car now that they will raise the front bulkhead for next years car.

#365 ElDictatore

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:22

Why do people say this? I don't understand, when has he been faster than anyone else? If you put LH and JB into any car that is the same, even if its perfectly suited to JB, Lewis will out qualify him.


Put qualify maybe, but not by much. You saw last season, didnt you? Button had enough races where he showed that he can be the fastest. Japan last year for example.

#366 WitnessX

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:56

A point about the MP4-27 and 26 regarding the speed differential between Hamilton and Button that has been mentioned before, seems to be overlooked again. As this is a thread about the car, I will mainly talk about the car, but I will have to point out some (obvious) things about the drivers as well.

Why does Button say the 27 is the worst car he has had at Mclaren? Its and interesting remark, and one that does tell you a lot about Button. Button is an excellent driver, albeit a driver with certain needs that need to be satisfied to reach the optimum. What are Buttons qualities regarding his driving style?

- He is very fast when the car suits him. Problaby a little bit slower than Hamilton, but definitely not a lot.
- He is very good at managing the tires, especially the rears. But here too, he can only do that in a car that suits him.

So what car suits Button? A stable and predictable car. Especially at the rear. If he has a neutral handling car, Button is a class act. He is not very good at coping with inconsistencies or more importantly oversteer. My assumption is, that he isnt as good as Hamilton when the car is more or less sliding. Hence, his quality to be easy on the tires. He simply slides less.

Now, back to the car: at the end of 2011, the 26 had massive amounts of downforce at the rear. The Exhaust Blown Diffuser was fully optimised, giving the car loads of downforce on entry, as well as exit. This fits Buttons driving style perfectly. With a stable rear end, he had much more confidence on entry, and with his smooth driving style he was fast and easy on the tires. The 25 actually had a lot of rear downforce as well when they worked out the DDD. When they still werent on it, like Silverstone 2010, the car was hugely unpredictable and Button was plainly slow.

In an interview, which you can find on youtube somewhere, Button and Hamilton are both asked what they have learned from eachother in their first season. Button plainly says: what Hamilton can do with a car that has no optimal balance is unbelievable.

Now, lets get back to the 27. No EBD, no DDD, no traction control, not a big rear wing a la 2008. Quite simply, cars lack downforce at the rear. This is visible in the laptimes as well. Pole position times are 1-2 seconds slower than last year. The only thing you can to balance this loss of rear downforce, is take some downforce of the front. Possibly a reason why Button complained about an understeery car this season a few times. Hamilton, quite simply, has to take of less downforce of the front, and manages the oversteer, even uses it in slower corners like Abu Dhabi and Korea. I think this is the reason why Hamilton is outperforming Button on such a large scale this year. On slower tracks like Singapore and Abu Dhabi, this difference is magnified, giving Hamilton an edge of around 0,5-0,8. in Q.

What does this tell us about the 28? If Mclaren fails to come up with a ingenious solution to find a lot of rear downforce, Button will be as fast as he is this year. With a lack of rear downforce, he fails to manage the tires as good as he did in 2011 as well. Instead of influencing the design of the car, Button limits it.

I have been a Mclaren fan since as early as 97, but with Button (who is a very likeable character, but just not one of the great drivers of his era), leading the team, I feel Mclaren made a big guess. If they built a car that is not rear downforce dependant, Button will perform. However, its a fact that you wont get it right every year.

Good luck to Mclaren and off to the Mercedes thread I guess?;)

There biggest factor is missing in your post. The Pirelli 2012 tyres which are different to the 2011 versions. I believe when he references the "car" he means car+tyres.

When the tyres are working for him in both fueled and qualifying he can have a good weekend. At Spa for example, he was still not totally happy with the car. These tyres have to be handled aggressively in order for them to operate correctly, in this way being "kind" on these tyres is counter-productive.

One theory I have heard is that the teams from last year that had weaker exhaust systems had an advantage this year because they had more "non-blown" data to base their designs on for this year.

As commented on by an earlier poster, the teams have now got data on the tyres so that they are durable, however this puts a "straight jacket" on the set-ups they can use. This straight-jacket may fit some drivers better than others.

The good news is that Pirelli are opening out the operating range on the 2013 tyres specifically allowing more play in the set-up choices. The teams are going to get sets of 2013 tyres for Brazil free practice to test, so that should be interesting.

#367 peroa

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:06

There biggest factor is missing in your post. The Pirelli 2012 tyres which are different to the 2011 versions. I believe when he references the "car" he means car+tyres.

When the tyres are working for him in both fueled and qualifying he can have a good weekend. At Spa for example, he was still not totally happy with the car. These tyres have to be handled aggressively in order for them to operate correctly, in this way being "kind" on these tyres is counter-productive.

One theory I have heard is that the teams from last year that had weaker exhaust systems had an advantage this year because they had more "non-blown" data to base their designs on for this year.

As commented on by an earlier poster, the teams have now got data on the tyres so that they are durable, however this puts a "straight jacket" on the set-ups they can use. This straight-jacket may fit some drivers better than others.

The good news is that Pirelli are opening out the operating range on the 2013 tyres specifically allowing more play in the set-up choices. The teams are going to get sets of 2013 tyres for Brazil free practice to test, so that should be interesting.

It remains to be seen how the tyres will behave since they will be completely different: heavier, different construction (radial), different compounds, like changing from BS to Michelin.


#368 Bartel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 21:20

It remains to be seen how the tyres will behave since they will be completely different: heavier, different construction (radial), different compounds, like changing from BS to Michelin.

Really that different? I can only hope mclaren gains from like they did from the switch to beidgestones fom michelin, the 21 was ultra fast on bridgies but a pic on michelins

#369 BigCHrome

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 22:53

Cars do not get designed to driver preferences since the control tire was introduced. It's very doubtful that McLaren will make any gains from Button being the "main driver," which he was this year anyway, as Lowe explained. The only difference is that the tires will be changed, though we don't know who that will favor, but I'm guessing it will be adaptable drivers.

#370 Nahnever

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:02

A point about the MP4-27 and 26 regarding the speed differential between Hamilton and Button that has been mentioned before, seems to be overlooked again. As this is a thread about the car, I will mainly talk about the car, but I will have to point out some (obvious) things about the drivers as well.

Why does Button say the 27 is the worst car he has had at Mclaren? Its and interesting remark, and one that does tell you a lot about Button. Button is an excellent driver, albeit a driver with certain needs that need to be satisfied to reach the optimum. What are Buttons qualities regarding his driving style?

- He is very fast when the car suits him. Problaby a little bit slower than Hamilton, but definitely not a lot.
- He is very good at managing the tires, especially the rears. But here too, he can only do that in a car that suits him.

So what car suits Button? A stable and predictable car. Especially at the rear. If he has a neutral handling car, Button is a class act. He is not very good at coping with inconsistencies or more importantly oversteer. My assumption is, that he isnt as good as Hamilton when the car is more or less sliding. Hence, his quality to be easy on the tires. He simply slides less.

Now, back to the car: at the end of 2011, the 26 had massive amounts of downforce at the rear. The Exhaust Blown Diffuser was fully optimised, giving the car loads of downforce on entry, as well as exit. This fits Buttons driving style perfectly. With a stable rear end, he had much more confidence on entry, and with his smooth driving style he was fast and easy on the tires. The 25 actually had a lot of rear downforce as well when they worked out the DDD. When they still werent on it, like Silverstone 2010, the car was hugely unpredictable and Button was plainly slow.

In an interview, which you can find on youtube somewhere, Button and Hamilton are both asked what they have learned from eachother in their first season. Button plainly says: what Hamilton can do with a car that has no optimal balance is unbelievable.

Now, lets get back to the 27. No EBD, no DDD, no traction control, not a big rear wing a la 2008. Quite simply, cars lack downforce at the rear. This is visible in the laptimes as well. Pole position times are 1-2 seconds slower than last year. The only thing you can to balance this loss of rear downforce, is take some downforce of the front. Possibly a reason why Button complained about an understeery car this season a few times. Hamilton, quite simply, has to take of less downforce of the front, and manages the oversteer, even uses it in slower corners like Abu Dhabi and Korea. I think this is the reason why Hamilton is outperforming Button on such a large scale this year. On slower tracks like Singapore and Abu Dhabi, this difference is magnified, giving Hamilton an edge of around 0,5-0,8. in Q.

What does this tell us about the 28? If Mclaren fails to come up with a ingenious solution to find a lot of rear downforce, Button will be as fast as he is this year. With a lack of rear downforce, he fails to manage the tires as good as he did in 2011 as well. Instead of influencing the design of the car, Button limits it.

I have been a Mclaren fan since as early as 97, but with Button (who is a very likeable character, but just not one of the great drivers of his era), leading the team, I feel Mclaren made a big guess. If they built a car that is not rear downforce dependant, Button will perform. However, its a fact that you wont get it right every year.

Good luck to Mclaren and off to the Mercedes thread I guess?;)

Quality post :up:


#371 Anonymous

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:40

Day 1:

http://www.formule1....ms1206no184.jpg
http://www.formule1....ms1206no186.jpg
http://www.formule1....52198903.81.jpg
http://www.formule1....52204035.45.jpg
http://www.formule1....52204035.78.jpg
http://www.formule1....52204036.36.jpg
http://www.formule1....52209271.28.jpg
http://www.formule1....352204044.0.jpg
http://www.formule1....52204045.34.jpg
http://www.formule1....52204047.95.jpg
http://www.formule1....52209271.62.jpg
http://www.formule1....52209274.94.jpg
http://www.formule1....52209276.46.jpg
http://www.formule1....52209277.35.jpg
http://www.formule1....52209278.23.jpg
http://www.formule1....52213499.92.jpg
http://www.formule1....52213501.44.jpg

Day 2:

http://www.formule1....52285837.41.jpg
http://www.formule1....52285837.72.jpg
http://www.formule1....52285839.66.jpg

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=200&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=208&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=209&full=1

Edited by Anonymous, 07 November 2012 - 23:49.


#372 BillBald

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:57

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=200&full=1


That is a seriously different front wing!!



#373 ViMaMo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:16

A point about the MP4-27 and 26 regarding the speed differential between Hamilton and Button that has been mentioned before, seems to be overlooked again. As this is a thread about the car, I will mainly talk about the car, but I will have to point out some (obvious) things about the drivers as well.

Why does Button say the 27 is the worst car he has had at Mclaren? Its and interesting remark, and one that does tell you a lot about Button. Button is an excellent driver, albeit a driver with certain needs that need to be satisfied to reach the optimum. What are Buttons qualities regarding his driving style?

- He is very fast when the car suits him. Problaby a little bit slower than Hamilton, but definitely not a lot.
- He is very good at managing the tires, especially the rears. But here too, he can only do that in a car that suits him.

So what car suits Button? A stable and predictable car. Especially at the rear. If he has a neutral handling car, Button is a class act. He is not very good at coping with inconsistencies or more importantly oversteer. My assumption is, that he isnt as good as Hamilton when the car is more or less sliding. Hence, his quality to be easy on the tires. He simply slides less.

Now, back to the car: at the end of 2011, the 26 had massive amounts of downforce at the rear. The Exhaust Blown Diffuser was fully optimised, giving the car loads of downforce on entry, as well as exit. This fits Buttons driving style perfectly. With a stable rear end, he had much more confidence on entry, and with his smooth driving style he was fast and easy on the tires. The 25 actually had a lot of rear downforce as well when they worked out the DDD. When they still werent on it, like Silverstone 2010, the car was hugely unpredictable and Button was plainly slow.

In an interview, which you can find on youtube somewhere, Button and Hamilton are both asked what they have learned from eachother in their first season. Button plainly says: what Hamilton can do with a car that has no optimal balance is unbelievable.

Now, lets get back to the 27. No EBD, no DDD, no traction control, not a big rear wing a la 2008. Quite simply, cars lack downforce at the rear. This is visible in the laptimes as well. Pole position times are 1-2 seconds slower than last year. The only thing you can to balance this loss of rear downforce, is take some downforce of the front. Possibly a reason why Button complained about an understeery car this season a few times. Hamilton, quite simply, has to take of less downforce of the front, and manages the oversteer, even uses it in slower corners like Abu Dhabi and Korea. I think this is the reason why Hamilton is outperforming Button on such a large scale this year. On slower tracks like Singapore and Abu Dhabi, this difference is magnified, giving Hamilton an edge of around 0,5-0,8. in Q.

What does this tell us about the 28? If Mclaren fails to come up with a ingenious solution to find a lot of rear downforce, Button will be as fast as he is this year. With a lack of rear downforce, he fails to manage the tires as good as he did in 2011 as well. Instead of influencing the design of the car, Button limits it.

I have been a Mclaren fan since as early as 97, but with Button (who is a very likeable character, but just not one of the great drivers of his era), leading the team, I feel Mclaren made a big guess. If they built a car that is not rear downforce dependant, Button will perform. However, its a fact that you wont get it right every year.

Good luck to Mclaren and off to the Mercedes thread I guess?;)


Yup Jenson can deal with understeer or even likes moderate understeer, but hates a nervous rear.

2011 Qualifying.
Jenson Button :

All weekend I have been struggling with a nervous rear. Finally, when we get into qualifying, I have got massive amounts of understeer so more in the direction I like but in the tight section towards the end of the lap you need a reasonably pointy car but I didn’t have that. Not a bad lap, but still, as Lewis said, the car is working well around here..


Seeing this it seems Jenson needs a almost neutral car. He is comfortable with understeer but may end up losing time.

Edited by ViMaMo, 08 November 2012 - 03:29.


#374 BigCHrome

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:37

There is no "neutral" car balance. There is only a measure of how much oversteer the car has.

#375 matt72

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:04

Yup Jenson can deal with understeer or even likes moderate understeer, but hates a nervous rear.


He's not alone, I also struggle with a nervous rear, especially if I've had a curry.

#376 BernieEc

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:31

Yup Jenson can deal with understeer or even likes moderate understeer, but hates a nervous rear.


He's not alone, I also struggle with a nervous rear, especially if I've had a curry.


Seems to me its got more to do with a nervous stomach rather than the rear or car :)

#377 bogi

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:52

There is no "neutral" car balance. There is only a measure of how much oversteer the car has.



LOLWUT?

#378 Bartel

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:17

There is no "neutral" car balance. There is only a measure of how much oversteer the car has.

....eh?

#379 jrg19

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:04

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...0801&img=52

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...0801&img=53

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...0801&img=55

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...0801&img=57

Back to back with the front wings.

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...801&img=110

Some serious measuring devices.

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#380 Anonymous

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:39

Next time give us high-res pictures :p

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=52&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=53&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=54&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=55&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=56&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=57&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=58&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=60&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=61&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=101&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=106&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=110&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=159&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=130&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=139&full=1


http://www.formule1....52375108.61.jpg
http://www.formule1....52375108.93.jpg

#381 Mc_Silver

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:55

http://www.formule1....52375108.93.jpg


New RW?

#382 jrg19

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 13:05

Looks a little like the *Jenson Button Spa wing?

Edited by jrg19, 08 November 2012 - 13:11.


#383 Rybo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:03

....eh?



The fastest way around a circuit is with an car with oversteer, according to simulations. The teams initially throw as much oversteer they can, and then dial it back for tire wear and driver preference. So a cars balance would be measured by how much oversteer there is.

#384 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:09

The fastest way around a circuit is with an car with oversteer, according to simulations. The teams initially throw as much oversteer they can, and then dial it back for tire wear and driver preference. So a cars balance would be measured by how much oversteer there is.


No

#385 maverick69

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:19

No


It's true I'm afraid lazy. In vehicle dynamics, instability (read oversteer) allows said vehicle to change direction quicker. Take a look at how the Typhoon fighter jet works for example. And to bring it back to relevence, there's a very good piece by Paddy Lowe on this...... But I'm on my mobile...... So it would be a pain in the arse to find it.

#386 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:39

It's true I'm afraid lazy. In vehicle dynamics, instability (read oversteer) allows said vehicle to change direction quicker. Take a look at how the Typhoon fighter jet works for example. And to bring it back to relevence, there's a very good piece by Paddy Lowe on this...... But I'm on my mobile...... So it would be a pain in the arse to find it.


Maybe it might be quicker in given situations, but teams don't just throw as much oversteer as they can and then dial it back. Even if they did it does not change the fact that you can induce understeer in a car or oversteer or it can be neutral. It is not just degrees of oversteer as was originally claimed.

Actually, the fastest way round a circuit is with what used to be called 4 wheel drift, if you can do it and the tyres can handle it, which would require a neutral car.

#387 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:44

The fastest way around a circuit is with an car with oversteer, according to simulations. The teams initially throw as much oversteer they can, and then dial it back for tire wear and driver preference. So a cars balance would be measured by how much oversteer there is.


Really not that simple.

http://f12011-setups...-continued.html

#388 Rybo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:55

Maybe it might be quicker in given situations, but teams don't just throw as much oversteer as they can and then dial it back. Even if they did it does not change the fact that you can induce understeer in a car or oversteer or it can be neutral. It is not just degrees of oversteer as was originally claimed.

Actually, the fastest way round a circuit is with what used to be called 4 wheel drift, if you can do it and the tyres can handle it, which would require a neutral car.


The teams come to the paddock with optimal set up which "should" work. The set up is done with as much oversteer as they can while allowing for good qualy pace and good race pace. Once they get on track they make adjustments as necessary, such as dialing in under steer.

Yes there are compromises, but I'm referring to an article tht Paddy Lowe talks about set up.

Edited by Rybo, 08 November 2012 - 15:07.


#389 maverick69

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:05

Maybe it might be quicker in given situations, but teams don't just throw as much oversteer as they can and then dial it back. Even if they did it does not change the fact that you can induce understeer in a car or oversteer or it can be neutral. It is not just degrees of oversteer as was originally claimed.

Actually, the fastest way round a circuit is with what used to be called 4 wheel drift, if you can do it and the tyres can handle it, which would require a neutral car.


Now you're introducing the human element. Trust me - the fastest car will be inherently unstable.

#390 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:11

There is no "neutral" car balance. There is only a measure of how much oversteer the car has.



....eh?



Now you're introducing the human element. Trust me - the fastest car will be inherently unstable.


You're arguing a different point, the op suggested that there was no neutral car balance just oversteer. I'm arguing that it can be neutral, understeer or oversteer although clearly the balance changes depending on the speed of the corner.

#391 Lazy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:15

Now you're introducing the human element. Trust me - the fastest car will be inherently unstable.


Humans are necessarily part of the equation, although I understand the Typhoons have computers to compensate for the built in instability. I don't think thats legal in F1 :)

#392 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:17

New RW?

That looks like the adjustable version they brought to Spa.

#393 peroa

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:17

Humans are necessarily part of the equation, although I understand the Typhoons have computers to compensate for the built in instability. I don't think thats legal in F1 :)

...and F1 cars have drivers...

#394 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:20

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...g=52&full=1

I remember the days when comments would fly around about how fat and ungainly the rear of the McLaren was, they have serious tightened the MP4-27, particular with the Hockenheim upgrades. It looks like the one above has gone a step further, but I may be wrong as we don't often see shots from that angle.

#395 Anonymous

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:00

http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=253&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=255&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=264&full=1
http://f1zoom.fx1.nl...a...=267&full=1

#396 alframsey

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:39

http://www.formula1....ms1207no205.jpg
http://www.formula1....ms1207no206.jpg

More pictures of the new front wing.

Is it just me or does this seem massively different to the old one?

#397 kerum gp

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:05

Is it just me or does this seem massively different to the old one?


It is. it's probably wing that will be used on next year car also

#398 Bartel

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:17

Looks to me that this particular wing will be allowing more air under the car rather than the air passing over the car, complimenting the raised chassis/bulkhead for next year

#399 whitevisor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:47

That front wing is simply a lower down-force wing - whether it is for Austin or Brazil its hard to tell with these years Pirellis. We have seen team like Mercedes and Lotus remove the upper cascades on the front wing this year to improve efficiency, but lets wait and see how the Macs will handle it.

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#400 BigCHrome

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:33

Maybe it might be quicker in given situations, but teams don't just throw as much oversteer as they can and then dial it back. Even if they did it does not change the fact that you can induce understeer in a car or oversteer or it can be neutral. It is not just degrees of oversteer as was originally claimed.


Actually it is.