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Vettel excluded from Abu Dhabi GP Qualifying [split]


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#801 prty

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:43

I know this might come as a shock to you, but there have been more races than just those in 2012.


Not as shocking as realizing that we are in 2012 now, and things change over the years :eek:


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#802 mtknot

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:44

Watch. Vettel will win this race. Now that they're out of parc ferme they can really play with the car lol.

#803 DisruptioN

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:57

I remain 100 percent confident that we will win this championship


the championship is fixed :confused: :confused:

#804 Sausage

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:04

He should be able to podium anyway. A pretty weird situation in some aspects though.

#805 Watkins74

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:06

We already know that that is the only way Alo would achieve championship - and the maFIA goons are exactly catering to that.

*facepalm*

#806 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:12

He should be able to podium anyway. A pretty weird situation in some aspects though.

He'll be lucky to get a point. Damage limitation for Vettel. Hamilton and Webber are now Vettel's best friends to ensure Alonso doesn't capitalize with maximum pts.

#807 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:20

With Monaco there will always be safety cars and possibly red flags mixing things up.

There was a lot of overtaking in Abu Dhabi last year, but nobody came from the back of the grid and scored. The lowest grid position to score was P16. The other nine scorers all started top ten, and Vettel retired from pole or it would have been 10 out of 10.


Yes, but then last year there wasn't a very quick car starting either near the back or at the back of the grid. This year there is.

#808 Myrvold

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:22

Yes, but then last year there wasn't a very quick car starting either near the back or at the back of the grid. This year there is.


However, he will loose quite some extra time by starting from the pit.

#809 RealRacing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:49

Can someone clarify what the purpose of this rule is (that the minimum amount of fuel is 2 liters)? Is it to avoid teams from making cars too light for qualifying?

#810 BigCHrome

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:02

It's so you don't use an illegal fuel mixture.

#811 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:10

Can someone clarify what the purpose of this rule is (that the minimum amount of fuel is 2 liters)? Is it to avoid teams from making cars too light for qualifying?

6.6 Fuel draining and sampling :
6.6.1 Competitors must provide a means of removing all fuel from the car.
6.6.2 Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the Event.
Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards of the meeting), if a sample of fuel is required after a practice session the car concerned must have first been driven back to the pits under its own power.

#812 Kucki

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:12

Can he make changes to the car prior to the race? Longer gear ratio etc. ?

#813 Ravenak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:16

Sure, by taking the care out of parc ferme. But this means bringing a chaos factor in, as the car is fundamentally set up for the exact opposite.

#814 Bruce

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:17

Can someone clarify what the purpose of this rule is (that the minimum amount of fuel is 2 liters)? Is it to avoid teams from making cars too light for qualifying?


The rule is there to ensure that all teams provide a minimum of 1 litre of fuel for the FIA to verigy legality (I presume that this is considered the minimum amount useful in testing).

Note - noticed that "litre comes up as an error... I can't believe that a British Magazine and thus a British BB have "litre" show up as a spelling error. Nest they'll want us to be pronouncing "Z" (zed) Zeeee...

#815 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:19

Can he make changes to the car prior to the race? Longer gear ratio etc. ?

Nope. Competitors must inform the FIA technical delegate which ratios they intend to fit no later than two hours after the end of P2

Gear ratios and dog rings (excluding final drives or reduction gears) may also be changed under supervision for others of identical specification at any time during an Event provided the FIA technical delegate is satisfied there is evident physical damage to the
parts in question

#816 Ravenak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:21

Oh ok, my bad. Well, they can still try to make the car go faster on the straights. Wait & see...

#817 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:35

Nope. Competitors must inform the FIA technical delegate which ratios they intend to fit no later than two hours after the end of P2

Gear ratios and dog rings (excluding final drives or reduction gears) may also be changed under supervision for others of identical specification at any time during an Event provided the FIA technical delegate is satisfied there is evident physical damage to the parts in question

I know it is bad to quote yourself, but under normal parc-ferme conditions, this is the case.

Since Vettel is starting in the pit lane, so Red Bull should be able to change anything and everything on his car. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.


#818 packapoo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:56

Brilliant strategy.
Everyone looking in the wrong direction.

#819 zztopless1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:07

What do you guys think about Seb pitting on Lap 1, getting the hard tyres on, and praying for a safety car? The hard tyres in India could have lasted the whole race...

It also guarantees him a whole heap of free space to make up time, 20 seconds to the first HRT and he shouldn't have to much trouble passing any cars up to whoever is in front of the Toro Rosso's (assuming the STR drivers move out of the way, which is 100% a given imo). Could be a fascinating race.

Edited by zztopless1, 04 November 2012 - 04:11.


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#820 KOMORI

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:21

I think he'll START on hards and charge through the field....

With his qually time disallowed he's free to choose his rubber...

#821 Lada Lover

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:36

liters? That's garbage.

#822 vlado

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:39

I don't like this.. :down:

Sure, they have to comply.. but to me the penalty seems a bit too harsh.

#823 KOMORI

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:41

I don't like this.. :down:

Sure, they have to comply.. but to me the penalty seems a bit too harsh.



How so; it's exactly the same penalty applied to Hamilton remember?

#824 vlado

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:46

How so; it's exactly the same penalty applied to Hamilton remember?

I had no idea.. is it this: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99564

Well in that case.. fair enough I guess. I still think that the "general" rule is too much.. but then again I have no idea what I am talking about so.. :lol:

Thanks for the info

#825 sergeym

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:57

I think he'll START on hards and charge through the field....

With his qually time disallowed he's free to choose his rubber...


Abu Dhabi is not exactly known for it's overtaking opportunities. So even in Red Bull it will not be easy.

#826 karne

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 05:54

Correct decision, as it should be. Rules are rules and should not change regardless of where in the field you are or how many tantrums you throw.

Predicting a Vettel DNF as he trips over someone who (correctly) tries to defend their position.

#827 packapoo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:02

Abu Dhabi is not exactly known for it's overtaking opportunities. So even in Red Bull it will not be easy.


But once the cars from the junior Red Bull team trip over themselves, or hopefully a Ferrari, and the pace car comes out, easy squeezy.

#828 KOMORI

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:14

Abu Dhabi is not exactly known for it's overtaking opportunities. So even in Red Bull it will not be easy.


I posted in the race thread regarding this: he will carve his way through to the sharper end of the mid-field and then struggle with gearing and double DRS zones against cars with higher top speeds IMHO.

#829 femi

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:30

"Red Bull team principal Christian Horner is convinced that the necessary fuel for the mandatory one-litre sample was in Sebastian Vettel's car but that regulations preventing the removal of bodywork meant that it could not be extracted."

Typical Horner


Yeah, right. He wasn't aware of the methodology used by the FIA for extracting fuel samples from these cars. It is the FIA's fault :drunk:

#830 Weyoun

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:39

*tinfoil hat on*
Don't worry, they are Toro Rossos ;)
*tinfoil hat off*


And are supplied with Ferrari engines :eek: . I wonder if they would receive another contract if they let Vettel cruise by  ;) . Not that RB or TR would care :smoking: . Di Montezemolo would fume....

#831 fastdriver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:42

Ok but on a serious note, anyone care to guess why RB would take such an unnecessary gamble at this stage of the championship? Like even if they felt they could not qualify in front, why try to pull such a silly stunt? I don't get it.

I will admit, if FA wins WDC I'll be mighty pissed at RB for this catastrophic, illegal stunt :mad:

KR for WDC :p

Edited by fastdriver, 04 November 2012 - 06:43.


#832 KOMORI

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:48

I had no idea.. is it this: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99564

Well in that case.. fair enough I guess. I still think that the "general" rule is too much.. but then again I have no idea what I am talking about so.. :lol:

Thanks for the info


I missed this earlier, and totally agree with you. Surely a 10 spot grid drop would be enough in both this case and Hamilton's. Harsh enough that teams won't push the boundaries but not to really destroy a driver's chances in the race.

I'm really looking forward to watching Seb charge through the field actually :)

#833 subseven

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:51

stewards: So why did you stop the car?
horner: a fly landed on the car where the alternator is and you know flies aren't fair, our car is built so tight that a fly can't land on it there should be no flies at the track. Thats the reason i swear.
stewards: hum, yeah ok...
horner: comon guys flies!! Their evil, remember that movie with the teleporter?
stewards: ok so we try to get some fuel but the we have to like dismantle the whole car guys? wtf
horner: don't worry we'll do it for you
stewards: hold on.. its in the rules!! you can't do that.
horner: comon we won't do it next race promise.
stewards: hum... we don't know man, after 10 passes, we can't really let this go
horner: please *crying*
vettel: gagababa

Red Bull makes fast cars and always push the limit, but you gotta take it like a man when you get caught.

Edited by subseven, 04 November 2012 - 06:52.


#834 jjcale

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:54

Ok but on a serious note, anyone care to guess why RB would take such an unnecessary gamble at this stage of the championship? Like even if they felt they could not qualify in front, why try to pull such a silly stunt? I don't get it.

I will admit, if FA wins WDC I'll be mighty pissed at RB for this catastrophic, illegal stunt :mad:

KR for WDC :p


This.

And why did SV get so little running in FP3?

...and while we are at it why did Macca let LH run his tyres to the canvass when he was leading the WDC fight in China 07?

As Murry Walker Walker used to say, anything and everything can happen in F1... but sometimes it feels like I am watching WWE.

#835 jjcale

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:01

He'll be lucky to get a point. Damage limitation for Vettel. Hamilton and Webber are now Vettel's best friends to ensure Alonso doesn't capitalize with maximum pts.

... and we know how much they want to see him win 3 WDC in a row

#836 zztopless1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:08

There is a reasonable chance of a first lap safety car here. If there is one, I think there's a good chance Vettel will pit and do what a bunch of cars did (to great success) in 2010.

It all depends on what tyre he starts on. If he starts on softs, then the above is possible, if the mediums can last the entire race (seems likely based on India). If he starts on hards, even the a SC will still help by bringing him to the back of the field, I doubt he'll pit as running the entire race of the softs would be difficult.

#837 Dolph

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:14

We already know that that is the only way Alo would achieve championship - and the maFIA goons are exactly catering to that.


We = som,e conspiracy theorsists' group? What are you called? "The drama queens"?

#838 Dolph

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:16

... and we know how much they want to see him win 3 WDC in a row


Let me get this straight. You are saying Webber or Hamilton will give up a win to let Alonso beat Vettel in the title fight? :rotfl:

#839 Melbourne Park

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:18

No SC last year ...

And with the hard tyre option, he would be slow for some time, hence making it difficult to overtake cars running softs. Especially on the track which is hard to overtake.

That a tactic is based on getting an SC or a big first lap accident, well, that's not an attacking tactic.

Worst thing for him might be moving through the field and then encountering Mr Massa.



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#840 fastdriver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:18

... and we know how much they want to see him win 3 WDC in a row

Exactly. If I had to put money on it, I'd say LH and MW would rather see FA take it than SV...and I don't think it's coz they like FA better. I think they just dislike SV's winning streak more.
* that's not to say i think they will give up the win for FA. I just think deep down, that is how they feel.

Edited by fastdriver, 04 November 2012 - 07:21.


#841 Melbourne Park

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:22

I missed this earlier, and totally agree with you. Surely a 10 spot grid drop would be enough in both this case and Hamilton's. Harsh enough that teams won't push the boundaries but not to really destroy a driver's chances in the race.
...


The issue is that by not having enough fuel, you are disqualified. Hence its a major penalty. It is non sensical though, because IMO the disqualification should not be from the whole of qualifying. It should be just from Q3, because you have already beaten those eliminated in Q1 and Q2. It's certainly a very poorly written rule. But one they all knew about ...

Perhaps next year they'll change qualifying, to making all the cars start each Q, with a set amount of fuel. Hence the cars might stay out and run their fuel down. It would be more exciting IMO. And perhaps, more easy to ascertain about fuel left ... but somehow, they'd have to ensure a team did put all the fuel in stipulated by the FIA. Putting less in, would favour the car, because it would be lighter with fresher tyres.

Nothing's simple in F1 ...

Edited by Melbourne Park, 04 November 2012 - 07:25.


#842 fastdriver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:23

No SC last year ...

And with the hard tyre option, he would be slow for some time, hence making it difficult to overtake cars running softs. Especially on the track which is hard to overtake.

That a tactic is based on getting an SC or a big first lap accident, well, that's not an attacking tactic.

Worst thing for him might be moving through the field and then encountering Mr Massa.

Maybe Massa would rather SV won WDC than FA :p

#843 alg7_munif

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:27

Not enough fuel and yet only qualified third on the grid? At least Lewis already got the pole time even when he was not under fueled.

#844 icecream

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:29

The issue is that by not having enough fuel, you are disqualified. Hence its a major penalty. It is non sensical though, because IMO the disqualification should not be from the whole of qualifying. It should be just from Q3, because you have already beaten those eliminated in Q1 and Q2. It's certainly a very poorly written rule. But one they all knew about ...

Perhaps next year they'll change qualifying, to making all the cars start each Q, with a set amount of fuel. Hence the cars might stay out and run their fuel down. It would be more exciting IMO. And perhaps, more easy to ascertain about fuel left ... but somehow, they'd have to ensure a team did put all the fuel in stipulated by the FIA. Putting less in, would favour the car, because it would be lighter with fresher tyres.

Nothing's simple in F1 ...


i think the issue is that they have to be able to provide a fuel sample, and if you can't, they can't say for sure what fuel you ran in q1 & q2, so therefore they have to DQ you from the entire quali.

#845 fastdriver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:30

Not enough fuel and yet only qualified third on the grid? At least Lewis already got the pole time even when he was not under fueled.

Ya, McLaren borrowed the rocketship spec this weekend...and RB forgot to keep a copy :mad:

#846 Oho

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:31

The issue is that by not having enough fuel, you are disqualified. Hence its a major penalty. It is non sensical though, because IMO the disqualification should not be from the whole of qualifying. It should be just from Q3, because you have already beaten those eliminated in Q1 and Q2.


Wrong, the disqualification from the session follows from inability to scrutinize the car and thus establish its eligibility. In order not disqualify form the Q1 and Q2 fuel samples should have collected and separately analyzed for them as well.

#847 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:56

Wrong, the disqualification from the session follows from inability to scrutinize the car and thus establish its eligibility. In order not disqualify form the Q1 and Q2 fuel samples should have collected and separately analyzed for them as well.

But how do they analyze the fuel that was used in Q1 and Q2? I think they should specify a design in the tank that allows for 1 L fuel to be left no matter what. That 1 L should not be retrievable for driving purposes.

#848 as65p

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:07

But how do they analyze the fuel that was used in Q1 and Q2? I think they should specify a design in the tank that allows for 1 L fuel to be left no matter what. That 1 L should not be retrievable for driving purposes.


So that they can use rocket fuel for the car and legal fuel for the 1 Litre tank? Good plan, no more penalties because of fuel ever... :D

#849 Jimisgod

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:08

I hope Vettel gets stuck behind a Lotus-Renault. Oh the irony.

#850 Techcheat

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:20

Let me get this straight. You are saying Webber or Hamilton will give up a win to let Alonso beat Vettel in the title fight? :rotfl:


Not that farfetched to be honest. Of the guys in front, only JB, Maldo, and Kimi are neutral or wont make it easy for Nando.

However Webber really hates being no.2 and respects Nando. He knows in 2010 RBR didnt make him no1 3 races before the season end but would have made Vettel no1 if he was in position Webber was in 2010. So yes, Webber would make things easy for Nando w/o making the team getting too suspicious.

Same for Hamilton. He has warmed up to Nando and would rather not see Vettle become win WDC three years in a row. If he has a chance he would let Nando go.

As for JB, he has too much of an ego to let anybody by easily. If only his skill could match his ego... Read his comments belittling Vettel and Nando and excuses of why he was slower than Lewis. After 3 years in Mc Laren its getting boring.

Kimi really is the spoiler, he has shown that he doesnt care about anything/anyone but himself. Fair enough!

Maldo, well, if you have watched this season, you would see he respects Alonso. So I think he gets the big picture..

In a nutshell, if Alonso passes Button and Raikonnen by lap 5, than he can go for the race win against a friendly crowd. Caz unlike Torro Rosso who would let Vettel through as RBR pays the bill, Nando would be let through by a friendly crowd, caz he *earned* it!