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Vettel excluded from Abu Dhabi GP Qualifying [split]


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#851 Kucki

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:20

Nope. Competitors must inform the FIA technical delegate which ratios they intend to fit no later than two hours after the end of P2

Gear ratios and dog rings (excluding final drives or reduction gears) may also be changed under supervision for others of identical specification at any time during an Event provided the FIA technical delegate is satisfied there is evident physical damage to the
parts in question



I'm a little confused by this answer...

If his final drive 7th gear have to stay like it is, he will really struggle through the midfield and will be glad to finish in the points. If hes allowed to change the gear ratios and the wings for higher topspeed, even a podium finish seems possible.

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#852 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:22

So that they can use rocket fuel for the car and legal fuel for the 1 Litre tank? Good plan, no more penalties because of fuel ever... :D

People lose all the common sense in their haste and hatred!

#853 fatd

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:28

Not that farfetched to be honest. Of the guys in front, only JB, Maldo, and Kimi are neutral or wont make it easy for Nando.

However Webber really hates being no.2 and respects Nando. He knows in 2010 RBR didnt make him no1 3 races before the season end but would have made Vettel no1 if he was in position Webber was in 2010. So yes, Webber would make things easy for Nando w/o making the team getting too suspicious.

Same for Hamilton. He has warmed up to Nando and would rather not see Vettle become win WDC three years in a row. If he has a chance he would let Nando go.

As for JB, he has too much of an ego to let anybody by easily. If only his skill could match his ego... Read his comments belittling Vettel and Nando and excuses of why he was slower than Lewis. After 3 years in Mc Laren its getting boring.

Kimi really is the spoiler, he has shown that he doesnt care about anything/anyone but himself. Fair enough!

Maldo, well, if you have watched this season, you would see he respects Alonso. So I think he gets the big picture..

In a nutshell, if Alonso passes Button and Raikonnen by lap 5, than he can go for the race win against a friendly crowd. Caz unlike Torro Rosso who would let Vettel through as RBR pays the bill, Nando would be let through by a friendly crowd, caz he *earned* it!


LOL as if Vettel vs Alonso is the only thing that matters and the only reason for them to race... they're not racing for friendship. WCC points are still up for grabs. Maybe for us fans it's only Vettel vs Alonso that matters but certainly not for them!

#854 icecream

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:29

Not that farfetched to be honest.


yes it is.

#855 exogenesis1203

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:30

Not that farfetched to be honest. Of the guys in front, only JB, Maldo, and Kimi are neutral or wont make it easy for Nando.

However Webber really hates being no.2 and respects Nando. He knows in 2010 RBR didnt make him no1 3 races before the season end but would have made Vettel no1 if he was in position Webber was in 2010. So yes, Webber would make things easy for Nando w/o making the team getting too suspicious.

Same for Hamilton. He has warmed up to Nando and would rather not see Vettle become win WDC three years in a row. If he has a chance he would let Nando go.

As for JB, he has too much of an ego to let anybody by easily. If only his skill could match his ego... Read his comments belittling Vettel and Nando and excuses of why he was slower than Lewis. After 3 years in Mc Laren its getting boring.

Kimi really is the spoiler, he has shown that he doesnt care about anything/anyone but himself. Fair enough!

Maldo, well, if you have watched this season, you would see he respects Alonso. So I think he gets the big picture..

In a nutshell, if Alonso passes Button and Raikonnen by lap 5, than he can go for the race win against a friendly crowd. Caz unlike Torro Rosso who would let Vettel through as RBR pays the bill, Nando would be let through by a friendly crowd, caz he *earned* it!

So what you are saying is, for Alonso to beat the inferior Vettel who has a fast but unreliable car/bad luck that can match Hamilton, he needs people in front to be easy on him and let him pass? So much for his godhood sticking skill that can drag a 5th fastest car to the front. I'm sure that will be a WDC well earned.


#856 Sakae

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:32

stewards: So why did you stop the car?
horner: a fly landed on the car where the alternator is and you know flies aren't fair, our car is built so tight that a fly can't land on it there should be no flies at the track. Thats the reason i swear.
stewards: hum, yeah ok...
horner: comon guys flies!! Their evil, remember that movie with the teleporter?
stewards: ok so we try to get some fuel but the we have to like dismantle the whole car guys? wtf
horner: don't worry we'll do it for you
stewards: hold on.. its in the rules!! you can't do that.
horner: comon we won't do it next race promise.
stewards: hum... we don't know man, after 10 passes, we can't really let this go
horner: please *crying*
vettel: gagababa

Red Bull makes fast cars and always push the limit, but you gotta take it like a man when you get caught.


I promise to refrain myself from reading remaining of your 48 other posts.

#857 sailor

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:18

Let me get this straight. You are saying Webber or Hamilton will give up a win to let Alonso beat Vettel in the title fight? :rotfl:

Not far fetched. Webber did nt make it hard for alonso last race.
Lew has some axe to grind with Seb for some strange reason and has alredy gone over to the dark side judging by his fanboyattitude towards Alonso.


As much as i wanted both Lewis and Vettel to fight the evil dark forces together , it looks like the only white knight standing between the dark forces and FIArrari nvasion is Sebastian ! :cool:

Edited by sailor, 04 November 2012 - 09:21.


#858 goldenboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:26

wait let me get this straight - I'm a little confused because there seems to be a lot of posts here saying he was underfuelled and gained an advantage due to less weight. I thought there was no weight advantage as the fuel was in there but the pickup didn't work so FIA couldn't take a sample without removing bodywork which is against the rules.

Has more info come to light as in did they actually underfuel and get caught lying?

#859 Wuzak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:28

The issue is that by not having enough fuel, you are disqualified. Hence its a major penalty. It is non sensical though, because IMO the disqualification should not be from the whole of qualifying. It should be just from Q3, because you have already beaten those eliminated in Q1 and Q2. It's certainly a very poorly written rule. But one they all knew about ...

Perhaps next year they'll change qualifying, to making all the cars start each Q, with a set amount of fuel. Hence the cars might stay out and run their fuel down. It would be more exciting IMO. And perhaps, more easy to ascertain about fuel left ... but somehow, they'd have to ensure a team did put all the fuel in stipulated by the FIA. Putting less in, would favour the car, because it would be lighter with fresher tyres.

Nothing's simple in F1 ...



Qualifying is one session. Q1, Q2 and Q3 do not constitute separate sessions. I don't think there is a mechanism for disqualifying a driver from one of those. He can have times excluded - which means he would start 10th, rather than 11th if he was removed from Q3.

It is a breech of the technical regulations, and thus the stewards could possibly disqualify the driver/car from the event.

The interesting wording in the Autosport report is this:

However, the stewards have allowed Vettel to start the race from the back of the grid.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104001

In other words, by disqualifying Vettel from qualifying they could opt to not let him race.

Edited by Wuzak, 04 November 2012 - 09:29.


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#860 BernieEc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:29

Not far fetched. Webber did nt make it hard for alonso last race.
Lew has some axe to grind with Seb for some strange reason and has alredy gone over to the dark side judging by his fanboyattitude towards Alonso.


As much as i wanted both Lewis and Vettel to fight the evil dark forces together , it looks like the only white knight standing between the dark forces and FIArrari nvasion is Sebastian ! :cool:


There are conspiracy theories.......then then there is madness...........then there is THIS!!!!

#861 femi

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:32

Interesting Adam Cooper's take

#862 Wuzak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:43

Interesting Adam Cooper's take


From Adam Cooper:

Such samples are taken at random, so there is a good possibility that had Vettel driven back and drawn attention to himself the FIA might never have discovered that he had so little in the tank.

One team told me today that they have a plan in place and if they are running low they would simply get the car back to the pits and argue about the sample size later, if indeed it comes under scrutiny at all.


Not sure if that is correct. Random sampling may occur during practice, but I thought that all cars were sampled at the end of qualifying. Anybody know?


#863 artista

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:45

On the discussion about what Vettel will change and what not now that they retired the car from parc fermé yesterday: AMuS reports they won't change the engine because, for whatever reason, the spare engine they have in Abu Dhabi is not too powerful, but they will change the gear ratio to get a longer 7th gear
http://www.auto-moto...se-6052905.html

Maybe I should post this in the Vettel thread, but on the other hand it's all due to Vettel exclusion... I don't know.

#864 study

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:49

Yeah I thought the same when it happened to McLaren, why not just chance it that they could get the amount out,

#865 Redback

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:49

Seb needs a drive like Webber's in China last year, - through the field to third.

The initial back-markers should be despatched easily, but after that it's all a test of his racing skills.

It will be interesting to see how far he gets.

#866 Sakae

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:51

Interesting Adam Cooper's take

Lessons in cheating.

#867 Sakae

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:54

wait let me get this straight - I'm a little confused because there seems to be a lot of posts here saying he was underfuelled and gained an advantage due to less weight. I thought there was no weight advantage as the fuel was in there but the pickup didn't work so FIA couldn't take a sample without removing bodywork which is against the rules.

Has more info come to light as in did they actually underfuel and get caught lying?

He was what amounts to one latte short of fuel in the collector. How much fuel was in the tank no one knows but RBR. Terrible way to potentially lose WDC.

#868 muelte

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:55

From Adam Cooper:



Not sure if that is correct. Random sampling may occur during practice, but I thought that all cars were sampled at the end of qualifying. Anybody know?


No, as I posted earlier, random sampling after Q3 also:

http://184.106.145.7...ntNumber-36.pdf

#869 BernieEc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:56

Seb needs a drive like Webber's in China last year, - through the field to third.

The initial back-markers should be despatched easily, but after that it's all a test of his racing skills.

It will be interesting to see how far he gets.


Webbers drive had a lot to do with tires of the other drivers going off......there was also a difference of about 0.7-0.9 between the compounds which is much higher than the difference in compounds for the Abu Dhabi Race....the Red Bull was also a superior car then EBD and all....they are still a dominant car now...but not like then as the grid is so much closer now....you also have china that facilitates overtaking....not the same for this abu dhabi track

Edited by BernieEc, 04 November 2012 - 10:00.


#870 apoka

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:14

On the discussion about what Vettel will change and what not now that they retired the car from parc fermé yesterday: AMuS reports they won't change the engine because, for whatever reason, the spare engine they have in Abu Dhabi is not too powerful, but they will change the gear ratio to get a longer 7th gear
http://www.auto-moto...se-6052905.html


That's very odd. A less powerful 9th engine? Doesn't sound like typical RB to me. They should have a reasonable engine ready in any case and why should a top team like RB not be prepared for this?


#871 apoka

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:16

Webbers drive had a lot to do with tires of the other drivers going off......there was also a difference of about 0.7-0.9 between the compounds which is much higher than the difference in compounds for the Abu Dhabi Race....the Red Bull was also a superior car then EBD and all....they are still a dominant car now...but not like then as the grid is so much closer now....you also have china that facilitates overtaking....not the same for this abu dhabi track

I don't even think they are dominant - McLaren looked better so far. Overtaking midfield cars will be difficult as we have seen in previous years on this track.


#872 redbroccoli

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:17

What if one is under fueled so that there is less than 1 litre of fuel in the tank, complete the flying lap and come into the pits and put some more fuel in before the checkered flag ?
There would be no penalty for it, wouldn't it?


#873 bmardini

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:19

I don't even think they are dominant - McLaren looked better so far. Overtaking midfield cars will be difficult as we have seen in previous years on this track.


yas is impossible to pass at. Vettel will have to work very hard. I predict p8

#874 dave34m

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:30

No, as I posted earlier, random sampling after Q3 also:

http://184.106.145.7...ntNumber-36.pdf

Wow, I didnt know that, I really thought that all cars got tested. Do you know if they planned to check Hamiltons car when they stopped out on the track.
I wonder if they advise the teams that they will require a sample while the cars are returning to the pits.

#875 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:32

What do you guys think about Seb pitting on Lap 1, getting the hard tyres on, and praying for a safety car? The hard tyres in India could have lasted the whole race...

It also guarantees him a whole heap of free space to make up time, 20 seconds to the first HRT and he shouldn't have to much trouble passing any cars up to whoever is in front of the Toro Rosso's (assuming the STR drivers move out of the way, which is 100% a given imo). Could be a fascinating race.


He would be disqualified, because the tyres in Abu Dhabi are soft and medium, not hard.

#876 dave34m

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:33

On the discussion about what Vettel will change and what not now that they retired the car from parc fermé yesterday: AMuS reports they won't change the engine because, for whatever reason, the spare engine they have in Abu Dhabi is not too powerful, but they will change the gear ratio to get a longer 7th gear
http://www.auto-moto...se-6052905.html

Maybe I should post this in the Vettel thread, but on the other hand it's all due to Vettel exclusion... I don't know.

Can you change the gear ratios, didnt someone post that they have to advise the gear ratios after FP2

#877 icecream

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:34

What if one is under fueled so that there is less than 1 litre of fuel in the tank, complete the flying lap and come into the pits and put some more fuel in before the checkered flag ?
There would be no penalty for it, wouldn't it?


no, i suppose that would be fine, but as the track generally gets faster as more and more rubber is put down, i doubt there would be a benefit.

#878 study

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:35

Wow, I didnt know that, I really thought that all cars got tested. Do you know if they planned to check Hamiltons car when they stopped out on the track.
I wonder if they advise the teams that they will require a sample while the cars are returning to the pits.


Maybe the pole car is automatically checked?

Maybe the same with all top 3

#879 artista

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:38

Can you change the gear ratios, didnt someone post that they have to advise the gear ratios after FP2

Article 28.6.a says it's possible to make the change under certain rules and with a 5 place grid penalty. The wording is complicated (at least for me, English is my 3rd language), but it seems it's possible.

28.6.a)
(...)
Any replacement gearbox must be fitted with the same gear ratios that were declared
under d) below and will only be required to complete the remainder of the Event in
question. Any change to the gear ratios declared under d) below will incur a further five
grid place penalty.
In either case a new five race sequence may start at the following
Event.
(...)


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#880 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:39

Can you change the gear ratios, didnt someone post that they have to advise the gear ratios after FP2

Yes gearing is decided after FP2 and requesting to change them will incur a grid penalty. Red Bull can hence change it as they cannot start any further back.

#881 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:39

Jennie Gow ‏@JennieGow

FIA confirm gearbox, gear ratios and suspension setup have been changed on Sebastian Vettel's car ahead of race

#882 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:41

Jennie Gow ‏@JennieGow

FIA confirm gearbox, gear ratios and suspension setup have been changed on Sebastian Vettel's car ahead of race

Full race setup for Vettel then.

#883 Nonesuch

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:44

Jennie Gow ‏@JennieGow

FIA confirm gearbox, gear ratios and suspension setup have been changed on Sebastian Vettel's car ahead of race

Not to add to Vettel's misfortune, but in a general sense I think it's slightly odd that once you're down in 24th you can just pile on regulation breaches because you can't be punished any further anyway.

On the bright side for the general non-partisan F1 viewer, this should set him up nicely for an interesting race.

Edited by Nonesuch, 04 November 2012 - 10:45.


#884 bmardini

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:44

Jennie Gow ‏@JennieGow

FIA confirm gearbox, gear ratios and suspension setup have been changed on Sebastian Vettel's car ahead of race


Green light at end of pitlane will be given when LAST car passes pitlane exit line (from personal experience). He will need to be careful as there is often water puddled from weird condensation at the bottom of the tunnel, as well as the fact that he will not have a warm-up lap to get the tires up to temp.

Vettel will reach the exit of the pits (after the tunnel) when the cars are about done funnelling into the hairpin.

He will be 10-15s behind the leader at the end of lap 1.

#885 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:48

Full race setup for Vettel then.


This might be the race where we get so see how fast the RBR really is.

#886 scheivlak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:48

What if one is under fueled so that there is less than 1 litre of fuel in the tank, complete the flying lap and come into the pits and put some more fuel in before the checkered flag ?
There would be no penalty for it, wouldn't it?

An onlooking FIA inspector might report that. Remember that in the BAR case in 2005 the FIA has made clear (in fact referring to a 1994 decision) that teams must be able to prove that their cars weigh more than the mimimum weight at all times during Q or the race.

#887 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:49

Not to add to Vettel's misfortune, but in a general sense I think it's slightly odd that once you're down in 24th you can just pile on regulation breaches because you can't be punished any further anyway.


Agreed, same goes for if he can choose his tyres. It almost seems like (in a round about way because he's starting from the pitlane so he has been penalised) that he's able to benefit from his penalty. Personally I think it ought to be a case of "you use the set of tyres you did your fastest lap in and you're stuck with your gear ratios. Change your gearbox if you want, but the ratios have to stay the same".

#888 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:52

Agreed, same goes for if he can choose his tyres. It almost seems like (in a round about way because he's starting from the pitlane so he has been penalised) that he's able to benefit from his penalty. Personally I think it ought to be a case of "you use the set of tyres you did your fastest lap in and you're stuck with your gear ratios. Change your gearbox if you want, but the ratios have to stay the same".


On the other hand once he'll encounter quicker cars (Force India, Sauber, Bruno Senna) he'll probably suffer from poor traction out of the slower corners because of the longer ratio. The shorter one has been optimized for their downforce levels. If they've changed the downforce levels he's going to lose quite a bit of time even to midfield cars in S3...

#889 prty

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:55

To be honest with the performance advantage and tricks RBR has, he can even still win the race.

#890 jeze

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:56

To be honest with the performance advantage and tricks RBR has, he can even still win the race.


No. It's Abu Dhabi and Hamilton is half a second faster than everyone else (including Vettel).




#891 kosmos

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:58

To be honest with the performance advantage and tricks RBR has, he can even still win the race.



I doubt it, they are fast but not that fast. He will need a SC or something special to get the win.

#892 dau

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:04

wait let me get this straight - I'm a little confused because there seems to be a lot of posts here saying he was underfuelled and gained an advantage due to less weight. I thought there was no weight advantage as the fuel was in there but the pickup didn't work so FIA couldn't take a sample without removing bodywork which is against the rules.

Has more info come to light as in did they actually underfuel and get caught lying?

There hasn't been any news as to what happened exactly. But all the information pointing to a genuine issue is there, it just seems a few people here have some kind of information pickup problem.

#893 dave34m

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:05

He will be 10-15s behind the leader at the end of lap 1.

He'll be a lot further back than that won't he?

#894 sharo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:09

In times when literary a single cell is enough to identify a person or a living creature I don't understand why FIA needs a whole liter and nothing but one hole liter of fuel to make fuel analysis.

#895 Kerch

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:10

He'll be a lot further back than that won't he?


I'd guess around 20 seconds, but with a full race setup and 2 DRS zones, I think Vettel can get to around 7th or even 5th/6th with some fortune.

#896 sawyer_si

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:10

He will be 10-15s behind the leader at the end of lap 1.

15s is the normal distance from first to last after one lap, he should be a bit further down than that starting from the pit lane.

#897 rijole1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:17

Not that farfetched to be honest. Of the guys in front, only JB, Maldo, and Kimi are neutral or wont make it easy for Nando.

However Webber really hates being no.2 and respects Nando. He knows in 2010 RBR didnt make him no1 3 races before the season end but would have made Vettel no1 if he was in position Webber was in 2010. So yes, Webber would make things easy for Nando w/o making the team getting too suspicious.

Same for Hamilton. He has warmed up to Nando and would rather not see Vettle become win WDC three years in a row. If he has a chance he would let Nando go.

As for JB, he has too much of an ego to let anybody by easily. If only his skill could match his ego... Read his comments belittling Vettel and Nando and excuses of why he was slower than Lewis. After 3 years in Mc Laren its getting boring.

Kimi really is the spoiler, he has shown that he doesnt care about anything/anyone but himself. Fair enough!

Maldo, well, if you have watched this season, you would see he respects Alonso. So I think he gets the big picture..

In a nutshell, if Alonso passes Button and Raikonnen by lap 5, than he can go for the race win against a friendly crowd. Caz unlike Torro Rosso who would let Vettel through as RBR pays the bill, Nando would be let through by a friendly crowd, caz he *earned* it!

Maldonado and Webber would let Alonso through because he earns it and they respect him?
In your most beautiful dreams - yes :p In real life - I really don't think so...

#898 amppatel

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:20

I think this penalty is harsh, hope he does well!

#899 apoka

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:21

To be honest with the performance advantage and tricks RBR has, he can even still win the race.

Even without the penalty, Hamilton was the clear favourite. :rolleyes:

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#900 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:22

In times when literary a single cell is enough to identify a person or a living creature I don't understand why FIA needs a whole liter and nothing but one hole liter of fuel to make fuel analysis.

It's a silly regulation and I hope they review it as well as the penalties that go with the transgression.

Being excluded is extremely harsh for something so small in the grand scheme of things.