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Vettel excluded from Abu Dhabi GP Qualifying [split]


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#901 Juan Kerr

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:24

I doubt The Vet will finish this one. Alonso will struggle to get on the podium also though.

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#902 pdac

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:25

In times when literary a single cell is enough to identify a person or a living creature I don't understand why FIA needs a whole liter and nothing but one hole liter of fuel to make fuel analysis.

But it makes no difference. The rules could say 1 litre, 5 litres 1cc, whatever. In the end, they have to be able to provide the correct sample. If it were 1cc, then I'm sure the teams would try to run it as low to that level as possible. Whatever the limit is, the teams will try to push to the limit and every team will do the same, so there will be not be disadvantaged.

#903 pdac

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:26

I think this penalty is harsh, hope he does well!

Yes, but the precident had already been set with Hamilton.

#904 Jackmancer

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:26

It's a silly regulation and I hope they review it as well as the penalties that go with the transgression.

Being excluded is extremely harsh for something so small in the grand scheme of things.


Silly, hmm - outdated for sure - but just have one litter left - with all technology and sensors today, how difficult can that be?

#905 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:31

The issue is that by not having enough fuel, you are disqualified. Hence its a major penalty. It is non sensical though, because IMO the disqualification should not be from the whole of qualifying. It should be just from Q3, because you have already beaten those eliminated in Q1 and Q2. It's certainly a very poorly written rule. But one they all knew about ...

100% in agreement but the precedent has already been set in Spain this year, and the FIA has to be seen to be fair to everyone.

There is no other penalty but to start from the back of the grid or if the team chooses, from the pit lane. Red Bull and Sebastian just have to limit their losses in today's race. Tough luck!

#906 artista

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:34

Yes, but the precident had already been set with Hamilton.

It's not an issue of precedent or not, the article is in the technical regulations not in the sporting code.

If found in breach of an article of the technical regulations, exclusion of the session is the only possible penalty, there is no legal possibility of 5-place grid penalty or 10-place grid penalty. The stewards haven't been harsh with Vettel because they had been with Hamilton, it's just that, in both cases, exclusion of the session was the only possible penalty they could give. And, since the whole qualifying is considered as a single session, that means the only penalty that could be handed is equivalent to Hamilton and Vettel not taking part at all in Qualy


#907 Anderis

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:34

Maldo, well, if you have watched this season, you would see he respects Alonso. So I think he gets the big picture..

But he gave him hard time in China. First he forced Alonso to run out of the track during his overtaking attempt. Then, when Alonso overtook him, he regained the place due to brave late braking into the hairpin. He did all of this despite the fact Fernando had fresher tyres. If it was a more hot-headed driver in place of Alonso then, it could result with (another) crash.

No way Maldonado will back off. Williams still hope to catch FI in WCC and maximising the result in this race is basically their last chance.

No. It's Abu Dhabi and Hamilton is half a second faster than everyone else (including Vettel).

He was also faster than everyone else in Singapore. Knowing Hamilton's luck this season, it's possible something simillar will happen again.

#908 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:37

I'd guess around 20 seconds, but with a full race setup and 2 DRS zones, I think Vettel can get to around 7th or even 5th/6th with some fortune.

The two (2) DRS zones could really work in Sebastian favor.

The first zone which has been lengthened slightly this year could be where Sebastian use his DRS to get closer to the car in front. The actual overtaking should be in the next DRS zone where he will use full KERS + DRS to get passed the car in front.

#909 Zil

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:38

Lol at people saying he should still make the podium or even win. Without SC or many retirements a couple of points will be as good as it gets. But I guess these comments are just laying the foundation to avoid giving Vettel credit if he gets a lot further up than expected.

#910 pitflaps

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:41

All other things being equal, I can't see Seb being behind Fernando at the end of the day. Fernando *probably* won't get higher than third and Seb will probably finish 7th or something.

Just delaying the inevitable a bit.

In the meantime, I hear Red Bull have cancelled their Youth Fuel Filler policy...

#911 pRy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:42

It's going to be fascinating to watch how far up the order Vettel can make it. He will be going all out and we'll see just how quick that Redbull is currently. Not too sure about the logic of falling foul of the regulations = being allowed to change the entire setup of your car.

#912 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:43

100% in agreement but the precedent has already been set in Spain this year, and the FIA has to be seen to be fair to everyone.

There is no other penalty but to start from the back of the grid or if the team chooses, from the pit lane. Red Bull and Sebastian just have to limit their losses in today's race. Tough luck!


But (and I'm not saying this is the case every time it happens) if you can't provide the required sample at the end of Q3, who's to say you would've had the required sample at the end of Q1 and Q2? You could've done the same (deliberately or otherwise) with the other 2 sessions, so that's why I think they exclude you from the whole of qualifying. Not saying I'm right, I could be totally wrong as to why they DSQ you from the entire session, just a guess at a possibility.

#913 rodlamas

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:48

Maldonado and Webber would let Alonso through because he earns it and they respect him?
In your most beautiful dreams - yes :p In real life - I really don't think so...


Alonso simply won't win the race because Hamilton is way faster than he is.

#914 sergeym

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:48

It's going to be fascinating to watch how far up the order Vettel can make it. He will be going all out and we'll see just how quick that Redbull is currently. Not too sure about the logic of falling foul of the regulations = being allowed to change the entire setup of your car.


To be fair i think any team can do the same - i.e. break the parc ferme, modify the car and start from pit-lane.

#915 Ian G

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:50

I think this penalty is harsh, hope he does well!


Yeah but typical F-1 thinking but now he's changed the kitchen sink under the Regs. they might have a rethink,he should go back to position 10 on grid as its only a misdemeanour to my way of thinking.

Heads will roll at RB after this fueling farce,lets face it how hard is it to work out which is the No.1 car and which side of the garage is the No.2 car. :lol:

Good luck to Mark tonight.

#916 as65p

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:51

Alonso simply won't win the race because Hamilton is way faster than he is.


Hamilton and his McLaren start quite a few races under that premise, yet don't win half of them.

#917 saudoso

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:53

Whatever the limit is, the teams will go for it. If it's 100ml, they'll try 100ml. Then one day someone will stop with 90ml and all the bitching starts again.

The rule is there long enough, everyone knows it, just live with it.

#918 as65p

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:54

Whatever the limit is, the teams will go for it. If it's 100ml, they'll try 100ml. Then one day someone will stop with 90ml and all the bitching starts again.

The rule is there long enough, everyone knows it, just live with it.


Exactly.

#919 dave34m

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:56

It's a silly regulation and I hope they review it as well as the penalties that go with the transgression.

Being excluded is extremely harsh for something so small in the grand scheme of things.

I really hope they dont change it, its a very basic instruction that must be complied with, all teams know it and McLaren and Red Bull have been very foolish to be caught out. Noone to blame but them.

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#920 Ferrari2183

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:01

I really hope they dont change it, its a very basic instruction that must be complied with, all teams know it and McLaren and Red Bull have been very foolish to be caught out. Noone to blame but them.

I agree on all counts but technology has come a long way. That much fuel is not needed for a sample.

Anyway, the penalty is way too harsh.

#921 Timstr11

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:02

Re: amount of fuel in Seb's car, Christian Horner tells @skysportsf1 "It looks as if it was too tight in all reality"

Horner now finally admitting they simply put too little fuel in the car. No technical problem.

#922 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:05

yas is impossible to pass at. Vettel will have to work very hard. I predict p8

If passes can happen in Valencia, it can happen anywhere.

#923 george1981

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:05

Christian Horner was on Sky earlier, he was quite cagey but did say that he thought the fuel was in the tank but wasn't getting to the collector. To me that sounds like one/all of the lifter pumps had failed. Christian also admitted that they were probably marginal on fuel as well.
If true that does sound like a genuine problem that would qualify as force majeure had there been 1l of fuel left.

#924 krapmeister

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:06

Heads will roll at RB after this fueling farce,lets face it how hard is it to work out which is the No.1 car and which side of the garage is the No.2 car. :lol:


:lol:

#925 Wuzak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:08

Yeah but typical F-1 thinking but now he's changed the kitchen sink under the Regs. they might have a rethink,he should go back to position 10 on grid as its only a misdemeanour to my way of thinking.


As a breach of the technical regulations it is no different to having moveable ballast or being able to rev past 18,000rpm. It isn't allowed, and disqualification is the only fit punishment.


#926 Wuzak

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:09

I agree on all counts but technology has come a long way. That much fuel is not needed for a sample.

Anyway, the penalty is way too harsh.


Nope. Everyone else was able to comply, why can't they?

#927 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:09

Yeah but typical F-1 thinking but now he's changed the kitchen sink under the Regs. they might have a rethink,he should go back to position 10 on grid as its only a misdemeanour to my way of thinking.

Heads will roll at RB after this fueling farce,lets face it how hard is it to work out which is the No.1 car and which side of the garage is the No.2 car. :lol:

Good luck to Mark tonight.

Vettel has had his share of problems - two race ending alternator failures, one practice ending alternator failure, and the yesterday's issue. His 2010 season was littered with unreliability whereas Webber had much more smoother season.

#928 study

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:09

Horner now finally admitting they simply put too little fuel in the car. No technical problem.



is that lying? Wasn't there a massive outcry about that a few years ago?

#929 Timstr11

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:12

Christian Horner was on Sky earlier, he was quite cagey but did say that he thought the fuel was in the tank but wasn't getting to the collector. To me that sounds like one/all of the lifter pumps had failed. Christian also admitted that they were probably marginal on fuel as well.
If true that does sound like a genuine problem that would qualify as force majeure had there been 1l of fuel left.

That's your conclusion. The fact that nothing in the fuel system has been replaced tells me nothing was wrong with it.

Edited by Timstr11, 04 November 2012 - 12:12.


#930 peroa

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:17

There wasn't, Marko confirmed that there was not a drop of fuel left in the cell.

#931 Timstr11

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:18

http://www1.skysport...tian-Horner-Q-A

Horner is basically blaming Renault for putting in too little fuel.

#932 dave34m

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:18

That's your conclusion. The fact that nothing in the fuel system has been replaced tells me nothing was wrong with it.

Hasn't it been reported that no additional fuel was found in the tank, so they were just sucking air from the tank, thats why they stopped urgently

#933 study

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:20

So they lied?

Erm, how come they are now getting off so lightly, McLaren were dragged over the coals for something similar.

#934 dau

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:22

Horner now finally admitting they simply put too little fuel in the car. No technical problem.

In which case i wonder what exactly was on that telemetry that convinced the stewards of force majeure in the first place?

#935 MightyMoose

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:23

So they lied?

Erm, how come they are now getting off so lightly, McLaren were dragged over the coals for something similar.


Didn't realize you were in the stewards room! You have no idea what they said to the stewards so stop trying to claim it's the same as Australia 09.

If they didn't tell the whole truth to some journalists so what? Every team has done that, most of them this season, and don't get me started on some of the BS excuses trotted out over the years by drivers.

I think this thread is coming to a close, it's time for the race and some of the "scenarios" continue to be extremely polarized and/or foolish.