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Vettel excluded from Abu Dhabi GP Qualifying [split]


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#51 choyothe

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:34

So you're looking into your mirror? :cool:


I'm not following.

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#52 smoothcrim

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:34

Vettel looked pretty depressed,i reckon its a gearbox.

#53 jrg19

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:35

Would gearbox be 5 place drop?

#54 Sakae

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:35

Sebastian must aim to stay on the podium at the end of tommorrow's race, and/or at least ahead of Alonso, if he can.

#55 crooky369

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:35

Yes, neutral.


Next question is would you go straight from third gear to neutral?

Just wondering if anyone can work out what problem Vettel had or not.

#56 f1fastestlap

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:39

Next question is would you go straight from third gear to neutral?

Just wondering if anyone can work out what problem Vettel had or not.


Normally it's from 2nd or first gear, not 3rd...

#57 TomNokoe

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:39

The thing is, Lewis didn't get DSQ from Spain because "he ran out of fuel" he was DSQ because "he couldn't return to the pits on his own power". Vettel also couldn't return to the pits "on his own power", so.... if it is an engine failure or something, and it is a result of Adrian Newey's extreme packaging of the RB8, and Vettel gets a free component change, I don't see how that's fair.

#58 tarmac

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:40

http://www.abload.de...tled-21revs.gif

Vettel gearbox must not like that

#59 Realyn

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:40

If the rules are the same foer everybody than Vettel should start last.

Just a random post I picked out.

Amazing how dumb people are on this forum, really.

The rule you just quoted is about not being able to return to the pits EXCEPT a technical issue. So please, explain this to me: If it is a technical problem and the FIA can see this from RB telemetry, WHY should he start last? Please explain this to me.

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#60 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:43

http://www.f1fanatic...o-pole-postion/

I'm waiting FIA...

#61 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:43

The thing is, Lewis didn't get DSQ from Spain because "he ran out of fuel" he was DSQ because "he couldn't return to the pits on his own power". Vettel also couldn't return to the pits "on his own power", so.... if it is an engine failure or something, and it is a result of Adrian Newey's extreme packaging of the RB8, and Vettel gets a free component change, I don't see how that's fair.


THIS.

if the FIA don't do the same to Vettel then it proves they are biased.

#62 TomNokoe

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:44

THIS.

if the FIA don't do the same to Vettel then it proves they are biased.


It doesn't prove they're bias, just that they are incompetent of governing a sport.

#63 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:45

THIS.

if the FIA don't do the same to Vettel then it proves they are biased.


can you read your own article please....

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 03 November 2012 - 14:45.


#64 Zava

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:47

THIS.

if the FIA don't do the same to Vettel then it proves they are biased.

from your very own article:

Although the rules allow a car to be stopped on its return to the pits if needed, a shortage of fuel is not considered an acceptable reason.



#65 Leonsito

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:47

THIS.

if the FIA don't do the same to Vettel then it proves they are biased.


From your own article:

"Although the rules allow a car to be stopped on its return to the pits if needed, a shortage of fuel is not considered an acceptable reason."

#66 BigBadBless

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:48

The thing is, Lewis didn't get DSQ from Spain because "he ran out of fuel" he was DSQ because "he couldn't return to the pits on his own power". Vettel also couldn't return to the pits "on his own power", so.... if it is an engine failure or something, and it is a result of Adrian Newey's extreme packaging of the RB8, and Vettel gets a free component change, I don't see how that's fair.


Yes, but you're allowed to not return to the pits under your own power if it comes under force majure.

#67 Realyn

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:48

http://www.f1fanatic...o-pole-postion/

I'm waiting FIA...

Are you even reading the article you are posting?

“The stewards determine that this is a breach of Article 6.6.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations and the competitor is accordingly excluded from the results of the qualifying session. The competitor is however allowed to start the race from the back of the grid.”

Article 6.6.2 of the technical regulations states: “Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the event.


Seriously, what don't you understand? HAM stopped because he/McLaren had the fear to drop below the 1 litre sample.

#68 dau

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:49

The thing is, Lewis didn't get DSQ from Spain because "he ran out of fuel" he was DSQ because "he couldn't return to the pits on his own power". Vettel also couldn't return to the pits "on his own power", so.... if it is an engine failure or something, and it is a result of Adrian Newey's extreme packaging of the RB8, and Vettel gets a free component change, I don't see how that's fair.

That is not correct. Hamilton was disqualified because the stewards did not accept underfueling the car as "force majeure".

The Stewards heard from the team representative Mr Sam Michael who stated that the car stopped on the circuit for reasons of force majeure. A team member had put an insufficient quantity of fuel into the car thereby resulting in the car having to be stopped on the circuit in order to be able to provide the required amount for sampling purposes.

As the amount of fuel put into the car is under the complete control of the Competitor the Stewards cannot accept this as a case of force majeure.

The Stewards determine that this is a breach of Article 6.6.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations and the Competitor is accordingly excluded from the results of the Qualifying Session. The Competitor is however allowed to start the race from the back of the grid.


Oh, looks like i'm late again. Oh well.

Edited by dau, 03 November 2012 - 14:50.


#69 alg7_munif

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:52

Just a random post I picked out.

Amazing how dumb people are on this forum, really.

The rule you just quoted is about not being able to return to the pits EXCEPT a technical issue. So please, explain this to me: If it is a technical problem and the FIA can see this from RB telemetry, WHY should he start last? Please explain this to me.

How about if it is only signs of technical problem and he has to stop to avoid any damage? Don't think that is a force majeure.

#70 TomNokoe

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:52

That is not correct. Hamilton was disqualified because the stewards did not accept underfueling the car as "force majeure".

The Stewards heard from the team representative Mr Sam Michael who stated that the car stopped on the circuit for reasons of force majeure. A team member had put an insufficient quantity of fuel into the car thereby resulting in the car having to be stopped on the circuit in order to be able to provide the required amount for sampling purposes.

As the amount of fuel put into the car is under the complete control of the Competitor the Stewards cannot accept this as a case of force majeure.

The Stewards determine that this is a breach of Article 6.6.2 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations and the Competitor is accordingly excluded from the results of the Qualifying Session. The Competitor is however allowed to start the race from the back of the grid.


Oh, looks like i'm late again. Oh well.


You are right yes, but the basis was on the whole "return on own power", but yes, it will be interesting the reason Red Bull give. And if it is something like an alternator, which Red Bull know they have had problems with, should they be given a free change because it's actually a "part" of their car, because it doesn't happen to other cars with Renault engines (bar once for Grosjean)


#71 dav115

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:53

Does the FIA record a live feed of all telemetry during the session? Otherwise what's to stop a team from stopping their car for fear of being underfuelled, but then editing the telemetry before presenting it to the FIA to make it look as if something was actually overheating?

#72 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:54

they can't make changes to the car under parc ferme I thought?

#73 Kelateboy

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:54

Are you even reading the article you are posting?

Seriously, what don't you understand? HAM stopped because he/McLaren had the fear to drop below the 1 litre sample.

Apparently not!

#74 artista

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:55

How about if it is only signs of technical problem and he has to stop to avoid any damage? Don't think that is a force majeure.

The rule is in article 6 of the technical regulations, which is called: FUEL SYSTEM

6.6.2 Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the Event.
Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards of the meeting), if a sample of fuel is required after a practice session the car concerned must have first been driven back to the pits under its own power.

http://argent.fia.co...009-03-2012.pdf

If he has a technical problem, the rule doesn't apply because he didn't run out of fuel. The important point here is that, this rule, only applies if there is not enough fuel.

#75 Realyn

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:58

How about if it is only signs of technical problem and he has to stop to avoid any damage? Don't think that is a force majeure.

I don't think thats regulated and the stewarts or the technical FIA staff would decide. I only responded to someone making a link between Hamilton's problem and Vettel today.

edit: Love how the 4yearoldguy completly ignores what everybody said to his link.

Edited by Realyn, 03 November 2012 - 14:59.


#76 jrg19

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:59

This could cost Vettel the title, another reprimand in one of the next races would result in a 10 place drop too... tense times.

#77 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:01

This could cost Vettel the title, another reprimand in one of the next races would result in a 10 place drop too... tense times.

It sounds like he should probably be alright. I think a lot of people are just having a field day with their wishful thinking.

#78 WatchingF1since4yearsold

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:01

I don't think thats regulated and the stewarts or the technical FIA staff would decide. I only responded to someone making a link between Hamilton's problem and Vettel today.

edit: Love how the 4yearoldguy completly ignores what everybody said to his link.


I will reply once it has been proved that it's not a fuel issue, what other issue causes a car to stop like that? it's identical to what McLaren made Hamilton do...

#79 Realyn

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:01

http://en.wikipedia....and_controversy

http://en.wikipedia....age_controversy[/quote]


[quote name='WatchingF1since4yearsold' post='6003623' date='Nov 3 2012, 16:01']I will reply once it has been proved that it's not a fuel issue, what other issue causes a car to stop like that? it's identical to what McLaren made Hamilton do...[/quote]
Come on, it can't be that hard to understand. Ok, really slowly. McLaren underfueled their car to get a better lap time and got caught and penalized. Got that sofar?

We do not know what happened to VET today. But I recall you being the one searching for links and making godknows howmany posts about Vettel should get penalized. So I'll take your "I will reply once ..." with a laugh.

Edited by Realyn, 03 November 2012 - 15:05.


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#80 Fubaaarrr

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:06

Funnily, if Vettel has engine problem, they can change the whole engine without getting penalty. But if they need to change the engine, they can use that engine what is now bolted on only in last GP of the season.

E:

"As per 28.4 of the Sporting Regulations, drivers can use their eight engines for the season any way they like. There are only penalties if a driver uses more than eight engines. However, if the engine is changed under parc ferme conditions the engine which was replaced may not be used during any future qualifying session or race with the exception of the last Event of the Championship."

Edited by Fubaaarrr, 03 November 2012 - 15:09.


#81 robefc

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:07

http://en.wikipedia....and_controversy

http://en.wikipedia....age_controversy



Come on, it can't be that hard to understand. Ok, really slowly. McLaren underfueled their car to get a better lap time and got caught and penalized. Got that sofar?


We do not know what happened to VET today. But I recall you being the one searching for links and making godknows howmany posts about Vettel should get penalized. So I'll take your "I will reply once ..." with a laugh.


Complete and utter bollox, the refuelling guy made a mistake, they had no need to underfuel, he'd still have been on pole by a mile.

#82 saudoso

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:08

I guess they will be in a situation where or something happened and they will break parc ferme and get a 10 place penalty or it was a low fuel stunt and they will drop to dead last anyway.

Edited by saudoso, 03 November 2012 - 15:14.


#83 dau

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:10

You are right yes, but the basis was on the whole "return on own power", but yes, it will be interesting the reason Red Bull give. And if it is something like an alternator, which Red Bull know they have had problems with, should they be given a free change because it's actually a "part" of their car, because it doesn't happen to other cars with Renault engines (bar once for Grosjean)

It also happened to D'Ambrosio, so it's not just an RBR issue. But even if it was, would you really want to go through with that? What if, let's say, Hamilton's damper issue in Japan would have forced him to retire the car in qualifying? Would you want a penalty for that, because it's a part of their car that failed? What if Alonso's front suspension breaks without warning? Penalty? Or if [your driver]'s DRS doesn't close on his last quali lap? Another grid drop?

#84 F.M.

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:12

Complete and utter bollox, the refuelling guy made a mistake, they had no need to underfuel, he'd still have been on pole by a mile.

They also had no need to complete the lap because they knew about the fuel issue.

#85 BigBadBless

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:16

What difference does that make? Vettel was often beating Webber by the same gap and position yet that didn't seem to matter. By all accounts and purposes Webber is clearly better qualifier than Jenson.


So? I literally didn't even mention Vettel or Webber in the slightest, at all. Nowhere in my post, seriously, go back and read it. Your post is totally irrelevant. All I said was that the car doesn't look very good in Button's hands, so it's clearly not as dominant as it appears at first glance. Anything else you want to infer from that post is totally your own doing.

"Didn't seem to matter"... to who? To me? I've never talked about it before. Don't apply things that other people have said and conflate them with arguments I make. If 'Hammy fans' said one thing, I really don't care mate.

Edited by StefanArak, 03 November 2012 - 15:17.


#86 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:16

Funnily, if Vettel has engine problem, they can change the whole engine without getting penalty.

It definitely comes with a penalty.

#87 smoothcrim

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:22

Kravitz said quite clearly if RedBull can prove that the engine is damaged they can change the engine in Parc Ferme and start on their original grid spot. They just can't use that engine again.


Thats why its a penalty duhhh

#88 Fubaaarrr

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:23

Kravitz said quite clearly if RedBull can prove that the engine is damaged they can change the engine in Parc Ferme and start on their original grid spot. They just can't use that engine again.


They could use it in last event of championship, so they could use it in Brazil, if by event they mean the whole weekend.

#89 saudoso

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:24

I'm not sure about that, at lest it's not wirtten like that in the parc fermè rules. The rules do mention the fixing of genuine accident damages, not engine/gearbox replacement.

#90 Seanspeed

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:25

Kravitz said quite clearly if RedBull can prove that the engine is damaged they can change the engine in Parc Ferme and start on their original grid spot. They just can't use that engine again.

I dont think thats right. I think there's a list of certain things they'll let the teams change if damaged, but I dont think the entire engine is one of them.

#91 swerved

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:25

Adam Cooper tweet

"Red Bull and Renault delegation just headed to race control to discuss Vettel stopping on track with FIA Stewards"

#92 fred54

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:25

Thats why its a penalty duhhh


Sorry I should have actually read what you were quoting first. :drunk: :rotfl:

#93 SpaMaster

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:26

So, Vettel will be put the back of the grid. That's the rule for McLaren at least.

Yet, he attended the press conference!

#94 jrg19

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:28

Could still be a few hours.

#95 saudoso

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:29

Here are the cans, I guess everything else fit into can'ts:
- engines may be started;
- fuel may be added or removed and a fuel breather fitted;
- wheels, wheel fasteners and tyres may be removed, changed or rebalanced and tyre pressures checked;
- spark plugs may be removed in order to carry out an internal engine inspection and cylinder compression checks;
- permitted heating or cooling devices may be fitted;
- a jump battery may be connected and on board electrical units may be freely accessed via a physical connection to the car;
- charging and / or discharging of the KERS energy storage devices;
- removal of the KERS energy storage devices which, once marked by the FIA technical delegate, may be retained overnight by the team;
- the main electrical battery and radio batteries may be changed;
- the brake system may be bled;
- engine oil may be drained;
- compressed gases may be drained or added;
- fluids with a specific gravity less than 1.1 may be drained and/or replenished, however, fluids used for replenishment must conform to the same specification as the original fluid;
- the aerodynamic set up of the front wing may be adjusted using the existing parts. No parts may be added, removed or replaced;
- if the FIA technical delegate is satisfied that changes in climatic conditions necessitate alterations to the specification of a car, changes may be made to the air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts. These changes may be made at any time after the message “CHANGE IN CLIMATIC CONDITIONS” is shown on the timing monitors, from this point the choice of air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts is free and pitot tubes may be covered or uncovered, subject always to compliance with the relevant Technical Regulations.
- bodywork (excluding radiators) may be removed and / or cleaned;
- cosmetic changes may be made to the bodywork and tape may be added;
- any part of the car may be cleaned;
- on board cameras, marshalling system components, timing transponders and any associated equipment may be removed, refitted or checked;
- any work required by the FIA technical delegate;
- changes to improve the driver's comfort. In this context anything other than the adjustment of mirrors, seat belts and pedals may only be carried out with the specific permission of the FIA technical delegate. The addition or removal of padding (or similar material) is also permitted but may only be carried out under supervision and, if required by the FIA technical delegate, must be removed before the post-race weighing procedure.
- drinking fluid for the driver may be added at any time, however, the capacity of the container for any such fluid must not exceed 1.5 litres;
- repair of genuine accident damage;
- any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car. Furthermore, any parts removed from the car in order to carry out any such work must be refitted before the car leaves the pit lane.


#96 jee

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:30

Penalty, for the fans!

#97 Longtimefan

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:31

A penalty would be fair as other teams have suffered in the same way but this is RBR, there will be no penalty.

:(



#98 goingthedistance

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:32

Probably going to turn out to be a lot of drama over nothing, as these things often do.

My money would be on alternator or electrical problem. Other than that it could be an attempted fuel cover up with a furphy engine issue, but Red Bull don't make mistakes like that, do they?

#99 fatd

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:34

Penalty, for the fans!


No penalty, for Vettel's fans! :D :D

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#100 1Devil1

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:36

Penalty, for the fans!


This is getting ridiculous. Are you watching F1 or a comedy club? If Red Bull did something wrong Sebastian will get a penalty if not he will stay at his place. We don't need unfair interfering from the FIA.