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Ferrari F2012 part IV


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#701 bmardini

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:06

Poser team? They delivered incredible work, like it or not.


+1. I dont like SV or RB, but you can't take away from their accomplishments. They compete in F1 better than everyone else - with maybe the exception of reliability. But honestly its a lot easier to clean up an unreliable fast car than to make a reliable car fast.

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#702 currupipi

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:15

Gary Anderson thinks Alonso's qualy problems were down to the new diffuser messing up how the DRS works, or vice versa. If he's right, then hopefully the issue will be minimised in the race.
I think the biggest problem at the start today is the dirty side. Yesterday on Sky they said that people who start from the dirty side are expected to lose one to two rows off the starting grid. That would be a total disaster and with cars going into turn 1 all out of position carnage is almost inevitable.



my worry also,

#703 jk

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:25

Ferrari will move forward in the race. But once again starting so far back means that the RBs and Ham will probably be gone once Alonso clears the midfield.

#704 Pyrone89

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:18

I wander how much "we have to evaluate the data and find out what we're doing wrong" Emilio Botin (Santander) is going to take.

Banks are performance-oriented institutions and I bet they are not happy at all at their money being thrown at a team that puts out such a useless clusterfück on wheels.

Fernando was fighting his car today like a possessed madman, turning his steering wheel almost 90º in a barely 30º turn. It's insane! On the other hand, Vettel's onboard camera shows him putting in minimal input in the same turn.

With that argument we (the taxpayer) can close 99% of the banks in the world.

The mistakes made by this sport team in no way come even near to the ****-up of their own sector.

#705 muelte

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:33

Great idea sending both cars on uses tyres for q3, talks a lot about the confidence on the car, not able to get heat on them in almost 10 minutes. Now we start from bad position and on old tyres.

#706 currupipi

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:40

Great idea sending both cars on uses tyres for q3, talks a lot about the confidence on the car, not able to get heat on them in almost 10 minutes. Now we start from bad position and on old tyres.


sums it up perfectly


#707 Nonesuch

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:51

The mistakes made by this sport team in no way come even near to the ****-up of their own sector.

Quite. These banks are the same geniuses who, amongst other things, couldn't even keep track of their own involvement in the worthless 'products' they sold to their gullible customers.

Great idea sending both cars on uses tyres for q3, talks a lot about the confidence on the car, not able to get heat on them in almost 10 minutes. Now we start from bad position and on old tyres.

As much as people criticized Alonso for saying the lower half of the top 10 was Ferrari's usual position, the averages of this season (6th for Alonso, 10th for Massa) show that Ferrari just isn't that great a car in qualifying. It's probably true though that the tyres worsened that weakness yesterday.

It'll be very tough from these positions to prevent Vettel from winning the championship today. Especially because the people in front of the Ferrari's aren't there due to some lucky coincidence, and some of the cars just behind have shown to have good pace over the weekend as well.

Edited by Nonesuch, 18 November 2012 - 11:51.


#708 race addicted

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:55

....so Ferrari is going into the race and the first stint with options that has done a good few laps more than the rest?
I think they've shot themselves in the foot here. Even if the talk has been of low wear and little degradation, we have heard drivers and engineers complain/warn about tires overheating, and that is more likely to happen to well-used tires than new, on a given chassis.

#709 sawyer_si

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:00

I think they scrubbed their tiers in FP3 for a lap or two while making practice pit-stops (they said so on sky at the time), surely they didn't use same set for 20 or so laps in Q2 and Q3. That just makes no sense at all

#710 muelte

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:01

In theory, optimal strategy is clear: stay out on options as long as possible. The earlier you pit to put new primes, the worse as you will spend quite a few laps getting the hard tyre up to temp, and laptimes probably will be awful... So I have absolutely no idea how starting the race on older tyres can help. If it had helped achieving a good starting place maybe it had been worth it, but now I'm afraid we are doomed... I hope I'm wrong though.

#711 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:04

In theory, optimal strategy is clear: stay out on options as long as possible. The earlier you pit to put new primes, the worse as you will spend quite a few laps getting the hard tyre up to temp, and laptimes probably will be awful... So I have absolutely no idea how starting the race on older tyres can help. If it had helped achieving a good starting place maybe it had been worth it, but now I'm afraid we are doomed... I hope I'm wrong though.


Unless of course the deg is so low that even with the set of mediums they have they can go near the end. Unlikely maybe, but who knows.

#712 muelte

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:07

I think they scrubbed their tiers in FP3 for a lap or two while making practice pit-stops (they said so on sky at the time), surely they didn't use same set for 20 or so laps in Q2 and Q3. That just makes no sense at all


I think that's not possible. You only get your qualifying tyres after FP3.

#713 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:20

I think that's not possible. You only get your qualifying tyres after FP3.

You get all your tyres Friday morning. You just give sets back at the end of each practice.

#714 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:24

I don't want to get into this too much but you said the real problem is the car not 2 - 3 bad qualifying performances.

I think that is fair enough but let me just put this out there. The presumption that the car is a dog is plain wrong, Massa's Q2 time was good enough for 4th on the grid.

So all things considered everybody failed.


Nobody is saying the car is a dog, although clearly something went horribly wrong in qualifying yesterday. Alonso has had one average quali session and one bad session recently, but would he have finished higher than 2nd in India anyway? I doubt it. Even if he qualified 4th here would it be enough? No.

The main problem is the car, give Alonso a car that is good enough to fight Vettel and he will do it. It's ridiculous when people attempt to throw Alonso under a bus when he has a bad performance but just completely ignore the performances he has pulled all through the season.

Looking forward to the race it's almost certain Vettel will leave here champion IMO, I just haven't seen any evidence that Alonso can beat Vettel, Hamilton, Webber or Kimi tomorrow which leaves him in P5 at best with Vettel taking the title. At least it will put us out of our misery and won't have us saying after the race "the next race will suit us better".

Also I'm even more concerned about recent developments than I ever have been, it seems that as soon as they have started to give Alonso's car a few upgrades that aren't on Massa's car he has started to struggle compared to Massa. Now I know it could be Alonso overdriving/struggling/under-performing but it concerns me that the upgrades aren't working and they are just pressing ahead with them anyway!

#715 race addicted

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:28

I think they scrubbed their tiers in FP3 for a lap or two while making practice pit-stops (they said so on sky at the time), surely they didn't use same set for 20 or so laps in Q2 and Q3. That just makes no sense at all


Of course they didn't keep the set from Q2, but they did use a scrubbed-in set and I'm thinking they have around six laps more on them, compared with most other top10 qualifiers.

#716 Massa

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:37

The car has no strengths

Oh wait. Its reliable (yippee). Race pace is good. Sort of car that a midfield team would love to have.



You are a joke.

#717 topical

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:46

I think that's not possible. You only get your qualifying tyres after FP3.


They spent most of FP3 doing 1 lap runs to scrub in tyres. This would be senseless if they had to give those tyres back at the end of practice and before qualy. So these are presumably the tyres they used in Q3 and so they will have 1-2 laps more on them than the runners around.

#718 Longtimefan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:05

Tell me this isn't true..

'BREAKING NEWS: Felipe Massa changes his gearbox. Fernando Alonso will start 7th'

re: Twitter

#719 ferrarijon123

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:06

There's a rumour going around that Ferrari will put a new gearbox in Massa's car. This will mean he has a 5 place penalty which will put him in in 11th while Fernando will move up to 7th so they'll both be on the clean side. Surely they must do this, it benefits everyone obviously apart from Massa.

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#720 Longtimefan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:07

as much as I want Alonso to win and keep the title open, if true this would REALLY annoy me.


#721 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:08

There's a rumour going around that Ferrari will put a new gearbox in Massa's car. This will mean he has a 5 place penalty which will put him in in 11th while Fernando will move up to 7th so they'll both be on the clean side. Surely they must do this, it benefits everyone obviously apart from Massa.


If this is true, it's genius!

#722 boldhakka

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:08

Dunno how credible the source is:
http://www.f1passion...-sulla-griglia/

Seems like the logical thing to do.

#723 race addicted

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:09

It's as if that idea was born here, and then contaminated over to Ferrari! :lol:

#724 BernieEc

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:11

at this stage its by any means necessary. I won't be surprised if the Redbulls did the same if they were in the same position. its only Mclaren that wouldn't, but this makes absolute sense. You have to throw everything including the kitchen sink. If mass is in the sink then he goes down as well.

Edited by BernieEc, 18 November 2012 - 13:20.


#725 F.M.

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:17

There's a rumour going around that Ferrari will put a new gearbox in Massa's car. This will mean he has a 5 place penalty which will put him in in 11th while Fernando will move up to 7th so they'll both be on the clean side. Surely they must do this, it benefits everyone obviously apart from Massa.

If true it is the saddest thing that has happened for several seasons. I can only hope they will lose out massively in the constructors championship as a result

#726 Ravenak

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:17

If this is true, it's genius!


I agree, it's an ugly thing to do, but it's genius.

Playing it dirty, just as RBR is doing continuously, fight the bad with the bad :smoking:

#727 RedBaron

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:19

I have nothing against it. It's a tactical move, there's plenty in F1 on and off the track.

#728 kosmos

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:19

If it's true I don't like it, let's hope it works and don't bite us in the ass.

#729 BernieEc

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:20

guys its still a rumour not confirmed yet.

#730 sv401

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:25

Playing it dirty, just as RBR is doing continuously, fight the bad with the bad :smoking:


RBR do not use a no. 2 driver to manipulate races. In any case, it could end up hurting Ferrari, as they could still lose the WDC anyway, but because of Massa's lost points, also the 2nd place in the WCC. Although they might not care too much about that.

#731 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:27

If true I can only laugh!

#732 BackOnTop

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:34

Yes Luca?

I thought you were not gonna call!

I thought you wanted to waste Alonso's best years with a car that qualyfies 6th for 5 years!

I thought your technical team was the best, that you revolutionazed the F1 cars..... Ok I stop joking.

Posted Image

:rolleyes:
Fernando Alonso chose Ferrari.... even making Ferrari go to the extent of paying 20 million to one driver not to race, and relegating the other to No.2.

Technically, Alonso made the choice himself to waste his best years at Ferrari... he could have stuck with Renault/Lotus.

Also, Ferrari's technical team was doing brilliantly from 2007-2009... winning 3 championships in 3 years! So if anything, it's Ferrari wasting their best years by handing big powers to Alonso & Santander to run the team. Funny how people are making Ferrari the punching bag... but they do deserve this misery for playing politics more than sports.

Edited by BackOnTop, 18 November 2012 - 13:36.


#733 kosmos

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:37

:rolleyes:
Fernando Alonso chose Ferrari.... even making Ferrari go to the extent of paying 20 million to one driver not to race, and relegating the other to No.2.

Technically, Alonso made the choice himself to waste his best years at Ferrari... he could have stuck with Renault/Lotus.

Also, Ferrari's technical team was doing brilliantly from 2007-2009... winning 3 championships in 3 years! So if anything, it's Ferrari wasting their best years by handing big powers to Alonso & Santander to run the team. Funny how people are making Ferrari the punching bag... not that they don't deserve this misery.



You can't write more BS in less space.


By the way, for those interested, video chat with Rivola at 4:00PM on Ferrari.com


#734 fabr68

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:39

RBR do not use a no. 2 driver to manipulate races. In any case, it could end up hurting Ferrari, as they could still lose the WDC anyway, but because of Massa's lost points, also the 2nd place in the WCC. Although they might not care too much about that.


:rotfl:

Yeah. It is not like Red Bull takes new parts from Webber's car (front wing) to replace the ones Vettel broke.

Ferrari should go ahead and replace Massas gearbox. Even if they lose it all it will be worth it for all the bitching and moaning from the haters.

Edited by fabr68, 18 November 2012 - 13:40.


#735 Watkins74

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:39

You can't write more BS in less space.

:up:

#736 keeppari

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:42

So..

Starting from the pitlane instead of 24th = cheating
Replacing perfectly good gearbox of your no. 2 driver to manipulate qualifying positions = tactical genius.

Nice.

#737 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:42

Also, Ferrari's technical team was doing brilliantly from 2007-2009... winning 3 championships in 3 years! So if anything, it's Ferrari wasting their best years by handing big powers to Alonso & Santander to run the team. Funny how people are making Ferrari the punching bag... but they do deserve this misery for playing politics more than sports.

As far as I know, it was a certain Brawn GP that won the crown in 2009 ;)

#738 Francesc

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:44

If this is true then it's pathetic. :down:

They (Ferrari) should get a big penalty.

#739 Hanzo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:45

If true it is the saddest thing that has happened for several seasons. I can only hope they will lose out massively in the constructors championship as a result



Reading about that possibility did cheer me up a bit, so you can imagine how desperate I am at this point... Don't be too hard on us, there are still worst things that other teams did very recently, like lying to the stewards.


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#740 fabr68

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:46

:rolleyes:
Fernando Alonso chose Ferrari.... even making Ferrari go to the extent of paying 20 million to one driver not to race, and relegating the other to No.2.

Technically, Alonso made the choice himself to waste his best years at Ferrari... he could have stuck with Renault/Lotus.

Also, Ferrari's technical team was doing brilliantly from 2007-2009... winning 3 championships in 3 years! So if anything, it's Ferrari wasting their best years by handing big powers to Alonso & Santander to run the team. Funny how people are making Ferrari the punching bag... but they do deserve this misery for playing politics more than sports.


Hard to believe there still some butt-hurt widows out there.

#741 TigersWood

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:47

:rolleyes:
Fernando Alonso chose Ferrari.... even making Ferrari go to the extent of paying 20 million to one driver not to race, and relegating the other to No.2.

Technically, Alonso made the choice himself to waste his best years at Ferrari... he could have stuck with Renault/Lotus.

Also, Ferrari's technical team was doing brilliantly from 2007-2009... winning 3 championships in 3 years! So if anything, it's Ferrari wasting their best years by handing big powers to Alonso & Santander to run the team. Funny how people are making Ferrari the punching bag... but they do deserve this misery for playing politics more than sports.


Obviously I am tremendously proud that Alonso is in the best team, and I wouldn,' change it for a thing. It was a way to explain how frustrates he must feel, watching every other team come with grear ideas while Ferrari remains stuck for the second year with a wind tunel so useless.

But the technical department is not something to be proud of.

-Ferrariy won the 2007 championship because McLaren tried its best not to give Alonso his third crown. If so, he would have won the title on August, because Kimi was nowhere. It's pretty obvious.

-Ferrari won the 2008 title fair and square.

So, although Ferrari is the main reason why F1 is what it is, they need a major shake-up, and Domenicali is not the man.

#742 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:47

All this concern about the start... I think those on the dirty side will have better starts. I'm leaning towards Button's theory that all those practice starts on the dirty side has laid down more rubber than on the clean side.



#743 topical

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:50

as much as I want Alonso to win and keep the title open, if true this would REALLY annoy me.


Me too. There's supporting your teammate and there's supporting your teammate. I understand the logic behind it but it would be embarrassing.
And as far as I can see, the rumour started on another thread on this site, so I hope it's just a joke.

Edited by topical, 18 November 2012 - 13:50.


#744 sv401

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:52

Yeah. It is not like Red Bull takes new parts from Webber's car (front wing) to replace the ones Vettel broke.


That is not what I was referring to with "manipulating races". Anyway, new parts being only on Alonso's car is something that routinely happens at Ferrari. What I meant is something like Singapore 2008, where the no. 2 driver does not simply help his team-mate (by swapping positions, or giving parts of his car), but also interferes with the drivers of rival teams. Massa being demoted to P11 forces three non-Ferrari drivers to start from the dirty side of the track. While there is not much point complaining too much about it, as it can happen without the team being penalized, it should be pointed out that this is more unsporting than a simple Hockenheim 2010 style position swap.

Edited by sv401, 18 November 2012 - 13:54.


#745 R2D2

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:55

Yeah, but what if there were actually something wrong with Felipe's gearbox? I mean, something must not be quite right with it or else he wouldn't have beaten Nando all weekend...




:)

#746 Ravenak

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:55

No, it's not embarassing, only the result matters.

#747 BernieEc

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:58

All this concern about the start... I think those on the dirty side will have better starts. I'm leaning towards Button's theory that all those practice starts on the dirty side has laid down more rubber than on the clean side.


You have a point but I will still disagree as you can't compare that side and the practice starts done it to to the right side of the grid that is the racing line. It might not be as bad as most make it out to be but there will be an advantage for those on the odd numbered side

#748 Torsion

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:00

No, it's not embarassing, only the result matters.


I just wonder wheter it is in the interest of the team - obviously it works out better for the WDC, but what about the WCC and holding on to second place?

In addition, what if Massa is actually the faster driver this weekend, for whatever reason, then they would be sacrifising a lot of points.



#749 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:00

Nobody is saying the car is a dog, although clearly something went horribly wrong in qualifying yesterday. Alonso has had one average quali session and one bad session recently, but would he have finished higher than 2nd in India anyway? I doubt it. Even if he qualified 4th here would it be enough? No.

The main problem is the car, give Alonso a car that is good enough to fight Vettel and he will do it. It's ridiculous when people attempt to throw Alonso under a bus when he has a bad performance but just completely ignore the performances he has pulled all through the season.

Looking forward to the race it's almost certain Vettel will leave here champion IMO, I just haven't seen any evidence that Alonso can beat Vettel, Hamilton, Webber or Kimi tomorrow which leaves him in P5 at best with Vettel taking the title. At least it will put us out of our misery and won't have us saying after the race "the next race will suit us better".

Also I'm even more concerned about recent developments than I ever have been, it seems that as soon as they have started to give Alonso's car a few upgrades that aren't on Massa's car he has started to struggle compared to Massa. Now I know it could be Alonso overdriving/struggling/under-performing but it concerns me that the upgrades aren't working and they are just pressing ahead with them anyway!

Look, Alonso has been great all year but he has chosen a very critical time to go through a slump in qualifying. When you start 4th you at least give yourself a chance. Starting 9th opens you up to all sorts of problems.

With regard to the new parts... Alonso is the one testing them and they rely on his feedback together with the data as to whether or not they're helping him or not so if we're going to apportion blame then I think he should share some of that.


#750 Ravenak

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:01

I just wonder wheter it is in the interest of the team - obviously it works out better for the WDC, but what about the WCC and holding on to second place?

In addition, what if Massa is actually the faster driver this weekend, for whatever reason, then they would be sacrifising a lot of points.


You said it: obviously, it works out better for the WDC.

And I think they're confident they can keep second place of the WCC when you watch recent races.

It's a poker game.