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Ferrari F2012 part IV


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#951 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:09

It was so bad at the start of the season it couldn't have got much worse. Since then downhill all the way. As for the new wind tunnel, some of these new updates were supposed to have been tested at the Cologne tunnel, so either there is still a problem with it or the engineers are simply not good enough. Either way, doesn't look good for 2013.



Ok so Ferrari can't win. I don't know what we have to say about Mclaren, Lotus, Mercedes, Sauber, Force India, Williams and Toro Rosso. I don't know how the F2012 was able to score 13 podiums..

From Spain to now, this car has always have the pace to finish at least on podium, bar Hungary and perhaps Singapore. But yes they are incompetent.

Tombazis, Fry, Domenicali, are incompetent, i don't know how they have a such good CV...

Edited by Massa, 20 November 2012 - 14:14.


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#952 Goron3

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:20

If Alonso was more skilled, then why the heck hasn't any of "HIS NEW PARTS" worked properly for the whole year.... considering the amount of moans he let off at Ferrari personally.

None of the new updates made by Ferrari were made for Massa this year (you kid yourself if you think otherwise)... so his skill level doesn't come into play. All Massa has been left with is Alonso's leftovers... some of which he has refused to use. So yeah, Massa seems to be more skilled in New Updates Analysis.

He was very good with Development of Ferrari cars in 2007, & in 2008 he requested a new Suspension be made & changed for his liking after Spanish GP... which made him go quick and challenge for the Championship. So in that sense, atleast Massa knows WHAT HE WANTS.... whereas Alonso seems to be lost & confused about the cars direction needed to suit him.

Maybe this is one of the reason why Ferrari's Tech Dept are getting confused themselves.


Can you please try and avoid trolling and spamming? You won't last long otherwise.

As for his updates not working all year, when did that happen? The updates early on in the year, particularly in Spain and for Canada worked very well and Alonso was very complimentary to the team for it. Alonso has only said that the updates haven't worked when they hadn't, and in particular their big DRS problem which since Australia hasn't been fixed.

As for other points, please find the relevant thread. hope that helps :)

#953 Enzoluis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:28

Ok so Ferrari can't win. I don't know what we have to say about Mclaren, Lotus, Mercedes, Sauber, Force India, Williams and Toro Rosso. I don't know how the F2012 was able to score 13 podiums..

From Spain to now, this car has always have the pace to finish at least on podium, bar Hungary and perhaps Singapore. But yes they are incompetent.

Tombazis, Fry, Domenicali, are incompetent, i don't know how they have a such good CV...



Not incompetents, Ferrari has high expectation maybe you are good enough. There are many drivers only a few are able to win a WDC that do not means the others are incompetents.

#954 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:32

Ok so Ferrari can't win. I don't know what we have to say about Mclaren, Lotus, Mercedes, Sauber, Force India, Williams and Toro Rosso. I don't know how the F2012 was able to score 13 podiums..

From Spain to now, this car has always have the pace to finish at least on podium, bar Hungary and perhaps Singapore. But yes they are incompetent.

Tombazis, Fry, Domenicali, are incompetent, i don't know how they have a such good CV...

I agree mate. The Technical team at Ferrari have done a good job this year. Especially considering where the F2012 started from. However it seems the F2012 has reached it's developmental peak. It happens. Whether its enough to win WDC remains to be seen. Obviously there are simulation problems within the team but its nothing they can't fix. Fry is working on that & will fix it. As he said, it takes time. And Loic Bigois has started as Head of Aerodynamics so that will help Tombazis and the team in general. Forza Ferrari!

#955 Enzoluis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:41

I agree mate. The Technical team at Ferrari have done a good job this year. Especially considering where the F2012 started from. However it seems the F2012 has reached it's developmental peak. It happens. Whether its enough to win WDC remains to be seen. Obviously there are simulation problems within the team but its nothing they can't fix. Fry is working on that & will fix it. As he said, it takes time. And Loic Bigois has started as Head of Aerodynamics so that will help Tombazis and the team in general. Forza Ferrari!


Are you Stefano in disguise?


#956 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:51

Not incompetents, Ferrari has high expectation maybe you are good enough. There are many drivers only a few are able to win a WDC that do not means the others are incompetents.



Ok so who is able to deliver a car capable of winning WDC and WCC bar Newey ? I just want to recall that only Newey cars had win with the current regulation ( i don't want to know about 2009, the Red Bull was the best car, Brawn had just the luck to have a car fully made for their DDD at the start of the season ).

Ferrari can't win all the times, we have to accept that some opponent could be better, it's not because we are loosers but because we are not arrogant to think we will always win.

It's not because we accept that with the current set of regulation we are behind Red Bull that we are pleased with 2nd place in WCC and WDC. We want to see the team win like you, and it's not because you came here to say " Ferrari is not good enough, Montezemolo need to fired everybody " that the team will became the strongest like 2000-2008 period.

Before ask Tombazis, Domenicali or Fry head, it's better to tell us who are going to take their jobs, who is better than them... I think you will search for long time.

Edit : The Red Bull era will have a end, and this end will be as hard as the Ferrari, Mclaren or Williams era.

This post is not especially for you mate :)

Edited by Massa, 20 November 2012 - 14:57.


#957 fabr68

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:01

Then wrong evaluation of new parts if done by Alonso should be called "gambles".


Call it whatever you want. Still you cant change the past

#958 Enzoluis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:06

Ferrari can't win all the times, we have to accept that some opponent could be better, it's not because we are loosers but because we are not arrogant to think we will always win.


I agree totally. If I wanted Ferrari winning all time I would be asking to hire Newey ASAP, but I do not want that. I do not like F1 where aerodinamics triks make a winning car. I would prefer Ferrari pushing for changing the regulations.


It's not because we accept that with the current set of regulation we are behind Red Bull that we are pleased with 2nd place in WCC and WDC. We want to see the team win like you, and it's not because you came here to say " Ferrari is not good enough, Montezemolo need to fired everybody " that the team will became the strongest like 2000-2008 period.


Is not about fire everybody, I think that SD got his chance as team principal and it is time that give that position to other people.



#959 BackOnTop

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:18

If you wanted to show us how much better Massa has been than Raikönnen when they where teammates, fine, go ahead. But this is the wrong thread for it. :wave:

I am surprised that you are a Ferrari Fan to have come up with a statement like above. I wonder why you felt the need to bring Kimi here unprovoked. Also, Raikkonen is "your" last World Champion, show some respect.

You do realize, that for all the racing heritage & millions of dollars of reserve cash.... Ferrari as a team is simply "INEPT" at providing "Focus" on 2 drivers simultaneously. So it's either one or the other depending on the politics being played out. Currently in Ferrari 2012, Alonso is the man, and he is not a bad choice I suppose. Lets see whether he can repay Ferrari's faith after Brazil this Sunday.

And to think Luca wants 3 cars on the grid lol. What the hell will he do with the third, I fail to figure.

Edited by BackOnTop, 20 November 2012 - 15:33.


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#960 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:26

Ferrari produce focus on both driver in 2007-2009.

If Massa was good enough at the start of the season, he would have the same focus than 2007 pre Monza and 2008. It's only because of his poor performance that he haven't got enough focus.

After Melbourne, the team especially made an another chassis after he said his Melbourne chassis had strange behaviour.

#961 Petroltorque

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:50

Here's my two cents. The odds of Alonso winning the Driver's Championship are long. Burlington Berties long. Ferrari need an equalizer, rain and a large dash of luck, Vettel tripping up while jockeying for position. Even then Alonso may find himself in a dog fight for a podium finish.
On the positive side, Fry won't make a bad strategic call, can that Australian even set foot on Italian soil? I have asked repeatedly whethe any Ferrari fan thinks they'll go pullrod on the front suspension next year and if not does that represent a tacit admission that it was a conceptual failure?

#962 One

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:03

I agree mate. The Technical team at Ferrari have done a good job this year. Especially considering where the F2012 started from. However it seems the F2012 has reached it's developmental peak. It happens. Whether its enough to win WDC remains to be seen. Obviously there are simulation problems within the team but its nothing they can't fix. Fry is working on that & will fix it. As he said, it takes time. And Loic Bigois has started as Head of Aerodynamics so that will help Tombazis and the team in general. Forza Ferrari!


I can not blame anyone from the team, but I can hardly agree with you that the technical team of Ferrari has done a good job this year. Far from it. They consistently put the race drivers, yes both drivers(!), in terrible position!!!

#963 topical

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:06

Ok so Ferrari can't win. I don't know what we have to say about Mclaren, Lotus, Mercedes, Sauber, Force India, Williams and Toro Rosso. I don't know how the F2012 was able to score 13 podiums..

From Spain to now, this car has always have the pace to finish at least on podium, bar Hungary and perhaps Singapore. But yes they are incompetent.

Tombazis, Fry, Domenicali, are incompetent, i don't know how they have a such good CV...


I'm not one of these people who expect Ferrari to win every year. Far from it. But the teach team or the wind tunnel or something just isn't good enough. Ferrari have been distant 3rd best team this year, maybe 4th best team, and it's only the reliability problems of others that have kept Alonso in the fight. The guys who deserve credit at Ferrari are the ones who made the car so bullet proof.
I don't think anyone needs to be sacked. All they need to do is find out why updates that great in the wind tunnel are disastrous on track and do something to improve it.

Edited by topical, 20 November 2012 - 16:08.


#964 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:10

Are you Stefano in disguise?

Lol. No :lol:

I can not blame anyone from the team, but I can hardly agree with you that the technical team of Ferrari has done a good job this year. Far from it. They consistently put the race drivers, yes both drivers(!), in terrible position!!!

You think they haven't? Look at where the F2012 was in winter testing. Now Fernando has a chance to win the WDC. The F2012 has been the most reliable car on the grid all year. It has won races & gotten many podiums.

All the above qualifies as a good job for me.

#965 FirstWatt

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:25

[...]Ferrari as a team is simply "INEPT" at providing "Focus" on 2 drivers simultaneously. So it's either one or the other depending on the politics being played out. [....]

What a statement. :down:
Massa with his performance since Monza or so has shown clearly that this is simply not true.

The reason is that Ferrari in 2010 and 2012, at some point of the season, had to choose which driver has a chance of winning the WDC because they weren't quick enough to win WDC without a clear leader.

It is completely rubbish to say that they hindered Massa to be quick, they only gave advantage to Alonso when they had to chose one of the drivers for an advantage.
They for sure are not going to slow down the second driver as long as it will not give an advantage to the first driver.

#966 BackOnTop

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:44

Ferrari produce focus on both driver in 2007-2009.

If Massa was good enough at the start of the season, he would have the same focus than 2007 pre Monza and 2008. It's only because of his poor performance that he haven't got enough focus.

After Melbourne, the team especially made an another chassis after he said his Melbourne chassis had strange behaviour.

It's cool really & I don't wish to opinionated further regarding the Ferrari's driver policies that's very political, but I agree it's also based on performance at the moment.

Alonso has done a good job as any World Champion must perform given the task at hand. I liked Ferrari's excellent methods in 2007 that won them both Championships. The current policy is also good, and I have an understanding for the tactical move made by Ferrari team in USGP.

As a stand alone decision, it can be rated very highly and brilliantly executed to shake up their rivals. Ferrari managed to pull off a "Legal" move that RedBull has been playing with the FIA's rulebooks since 2010, cunningly taking Aero rules to their advantage, also legally. But Mclaren & RedBull looked quite disturbed by it, which was fun for me to read Mclaren's & RBR's stupid reactions. MW came across as an idiot trying to criticize Alonso, at a time when Hamilton has given them a kick as well. It looked like Ferrari showed they are ready to look closely at the rule book. F1 is made up of smart people, which for a while looked like Ferrari had none.

Compared to RBR & Ferrari who have got their priorities figured out regarding winning in Formula 1, Mclaren have no priorities. They are a crazy team that hasn't gotten even their reliability fixed in 10 years. I followed Lotus closely this year because of Kimi being there, and even they have a great working environment and a good team overall.

But I think Massa is confident again and next year it could be a very good year for Ferrari in constructors as well.

Edited by BackOnTop, 20 November 2012 - 16:45.


#967 Enzoluis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:58

All the above qualifies as a good job for me.



The important is how Luca qualifies it.


#968 as65p

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:03

I am surprised that you are a Ferrari Fan to have come up with a statement like above. I wonder why you felt the need to bring Kimi here unprovoked. Also, Raikkonen is "your" last World Champion, show some respect.


It was you starting to talk of Massa's technical qualities in 2007 and 2008, how he chose a suspension development direction that made him faster and KR lacked the skills to deal with.

Don't blame me if your excitment of picking on Alonso takes the discussion into directions that don't suit you. :)

Oh, and I'm not a Tifoso.

#969 Ferrari2183

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:35

I think Ferrari have simply hit a development roadblock in the latter part of the season. Very few ideas have worked at the rear of the car and it is not like the ideas were bad because Red Bull have incorporated similar rear wing endplates and they actually got the front wing to work as well as the rear wing to work eventually.

There is something about this car that is making development a nightmare and my suspicion is that it is the huge sidepods which are probably generating more lift than the opposition and constricting airflow to the rear.

#970 BackOnTop

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:05

It was you starting to talk of Massa's technical qualities in 2007 and 2008, how he chose a suspension development direction that made him faster and KR lacked the skills to deal with.

Don't blame me if your excitment of picking on Alonso takes the discussion into directions that don't suit you. :)

Oh, and I'm not a Tifoso.

I get it!!

You are one of those types who think praising One Driver should automatically mean the Other Driver is sh!t. Live on it, it's real nice.

Since you are not a Tifoso, what news from the mountains & the sea??

Edited by BackOnTop, 20 November 2012 - 18:15.


#971 Frank

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:10

I agree mate. The Technical team at Ferrari have done a good job this year. Especially considering where the F2012 started from. However it seems the F2012 has reached it's developmental peak. It happens. Whether its enough to win WDC remains to be seen. Obviously there are simulation problems within the team but its nothing they can't fix. Fry is working on that & will fix it. As he said, it takes time. And Loic Bigois has started as Head of Aerodynamics so that will help Tombazis and the team in general. Forza Ferrari!

Good job? What did Stefano said in 2011 regarding 2012 car development and what did they produce for the Oz GP? Ferrari got those pole when others could not capitalise on the wet and not because the guys did a good job. We do have better race pace compared to quali but not much ahead of the top competitors.

#972 as65p

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:53

I get it!!


That I doubt.

You are one of those types who think praising One Driver should automatically mean the Other Driver is sh!t. Live on it, it's real nice.


Once again, it's not me writing stuff like that:

Maybe because Massa is "more" skilled at analyzing new components as good or bad compared to Alonso.... who has been crying about every single update since the season began ;)


or that:

If Alonso was more skilled, then why the heck hasn't any of "HIS NEW PARTS" worked properly for the whole year.... considering the amount of moans he let off at Ferrari personally.

None of the new updates made by Ferrari were made for Massa this year (you kid yourself if you think otherwise)... so his skill level doesn't come into play. All Massa has been left with is Alonso's leftovers... some of which he has refused to use. So yeah, Massa seems to be more skilled in New Updates Analysis.


Okay, good for Alonso that he is beating Massa. Such a great achievement considering everyone except HRT is beating the same Massa Germany 2010 onwards!!


:wave:


#973 BackOnTop

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:01

That I doubt.



Once again, it's not me writing stuff like that:



or that:





:wave:

You missed the point. Everyone is/was beating Massa.... Not just Alonso!! Which really goes down well with a good driver given inferior treatment, resulting to inferior enviornment. Now it seems they have finally paying some attention to Massa's liking, and he is duely matching Alonso.

If you hobble a winning horse, you can't expect it to win.

#974 ArkZ

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:33

A "speech" before coming final in Brasil by Fernando. There are two parts, 1st about private live and 2nd about the team.

“There are 71 laps to go that will decide the final outcome: the efforts of several months will all come down to a very short space of time"

"Then what will happen will happen and the important thing is that we do everything perfectly: then only luck can be out of our hands. We know that a place on the podium alone could be enough. I have confidence in myself and in the team and we will fight right to the end. We are honest with ourselves and our fans: we know we are not super competitive, but if we are still in the running, it’s down to the team which is the best of the lot. We will have a few small updates, but the others will have done the same, so the situation won’t change much. Maybe finding a good set-up can make the difference or the way the car suits the circuit. Would a win be revenge for 2010 in Abu Dhabi? No, I think it would just be happiness for us, as for 99% of the people, although maybe not for those at Red Bull… Ferrari is something special, with everyone giving 100% and even more, because they feel part of this family: not just in Formula 1 but also on the commercial side, because when they see a Ferrari drive by on the road, they know that a part of that car, even if it’s very small is made by them.” :)

Edited by ArkZ, 20 November 2012 - 20:37.


#975 oetzi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:35

You think it's crazy I said probable but yet that's exactly what happened. So maybe it's not me that needs to change their way of thinking...

I'll back you on that - I was agreeing with you at the time that there were signs that the car was good. It wasn't good all the time, and did some funny things, but it looked like it had serious pace at times. And that's how it's been through the season. Done some funny things, but sometimes had pace.

It's been a great effort from the team to get the car as far forward as it is in the championship, but it's a mistake to think Clifford was ever really a dog.

Edited by oetzi, 20 November 2012 - 20:35.


#976 oetzi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:40

The one who can get the sack at Ferrari is Tombazis , even personally admitted that when they saw how far back is the car in the winter testing he was expecting to get the sack if they dont improve the car till the middle of the season.

That's an interesting comment - if it's true, could it be he did the best he could with what was there by half season, rather than taking the wisest course for the whole season, maybe explaining the rapid improvement followed by crashing halt in progress?

#977 as65p

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:56

You missed the point. Everyone is/was beating Massa....


Well, yeah. Except the teammate he had before Alonso. :p

Not just Alonso!! Which really goes down well with a good driver given inferior treatment, resulting to inferior enviornment.

Now it seems they have finally paying some attention to Massa's liking, and he is duely matching Alonso.


Interesting theory all in all. Ferrari ignoring Massa so Alonso dominates intra-team and becomes a championship contender, then 2/3rds of the way they change their mind and listen to Massa again, throwing away a WDC chance. Righto.... :drunk:

#978 oetzi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:00

Can I just say that the 'Alonso is riding a donkey to win the derby' brigade are deluded. A donkey can't win the derby, there are too many decent horses in the race. The Ferrari may not have been the fastest car over the season, that would probably be a close shout between the Red Bull and the McLaren. Red Bull and McLaren have had their own problems: running two versions of the car cos they didn't know which was best, breaking the car, or not being able to make sure it has four wheels on it when necessary. Ferrari has had very few problems like this. Some of that may be teamwork, some may be design. We don't know what influence either of these has, but whatever it is that made the car work when necessary, it's right to praise the team for it.

A driver and a car are a partnership. Each adjusts to the other. And the team does the same. No one part can do something the others don't contribute to.

To come second in the WDC the car, the driver, and the team must all be pretty good.

#979 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:16

According to IntelligentF1 Massa didn't have the pace to challenge the top 2 and was in fact only marginally faster over both stints.

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#980 oetzi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:22

According to IntelligentF1 Massa didn't have the pace to challenge the top 2 and was in fact only marginally faster over both stints.

Having said the model usually backs up what I see, that's just not right.

He was penned up, got free, and was pretty much the quickest car on track once he got free.

I think the championship and race situations make this a tricky one for a model to work with.

Edited by oetzi, 20 November 2012 - 21:22.


#981 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:27

That's an interesting comment - if it's true, could it be he did the best he could with what was there by half season, rather than taking the wisest course for the whole season, maybe explaining the rapid improvement followed by crashing halt in progress?


I don't believe Tombazis will be fired. Bigois is there now and is now the Head of Aerodynamics so Tombazis will return to his old job. IMO. I do however think they took the approach to rapidly improve the car as quick as possible with little forethought on future development. I also think the lack of straightline speed made the team go real aggressive on DRS and developed other parts to help said lack of speed and that they simply went too far. I'm not sure they can fix the problem with just a change or two, I think much of the car needs to be changed to make it on the RB8's level and its too far along in the season to do so. I think maybe they realized this around Singapore but tried to refine different elements on the car instead of completely redesigning and that's why the car hasn't really went forward compared to others. It's went forward for sure with the small refinements but only helped to keep the gap consistent with other teams updates whereas a redesign of certain elements would've actually cut the gap not simply maintain it.

But as I said yesterday I think things are looking good for 2013, especially if we can start winter testing off on the right foot and not behind. Fry has implemented many changes including to the methodology of the car and it will pay dividends in the future. Agathangelou is here to help with the tunnel correlation & simulation tools and now Bigois is here to be HoA which will be a completely different approach than we're used to seeing with Costa or Tombazis. I'm sure there are more new hires than we currently know and I'm sure there will be more during the winter. Some of them might even be high profile. So yes, I think 2013 might very well be a good year for Scuderia Ferrari. And if Felipe can carry this current momentum through the winter & into next season Ferrari has a good shot at contending for the WCC. Forza Ferrari :up:

#982 oetzi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:45

I don't believe Tombazis will be fired. Bigois is there now and is now the Head of Aerodynamics so Tombazis will return to his old job. IMO. I do however think they took the approach to rapidly improve the car as quick as possible with little forethought on future development.


Would you be entirely shocked to see something more like the original Acer ducts back on the car next year? With a bit more time and knowledge behind the idea?

Maybe not, after all, the double floor idea from the F92 pops up on the odd car from time to time in one form or another, but Ferrari dumped it pretty permanently. Until now, anyway. Mind you, the fighter plane side pods came back for 96, didn't they? Sorry, rambling.

I also think the lack of straightline speed made the team go real aggressive on DRS and developed other parts to help said lack of speed and that they simply went too far. I'm not sure they can fix the problem with just a change or two, I think much of the car needs to be changed to make it on the RB8's level and its too far along in the season to do so. I think maybe they realized this around Singapore but tried to refine different elements on the car instead of completely redesigning and that's why the car hasn't really went forward compared to others. It's went forward for sure with the small refinements but only helped to keep the gap consistent with other teams updates whereas a redesign of certain elements would've actually cut the gap not simply maintain it.


This is what I think's really impressive - they designed a car that was based around a new concept, found it had issues, botched the issues to get up to speed, then understood what they had quickly wnough to keep pace with organised, planned development from other teams over the season. At least, that's what it looks like from here. And, if you believe the gossip, all that with two wind tunnels giving different results and a team of incompetent engineers.

Amazing.

But as I said yesterday I think things are looking good for 2013, especially if we can start winter testing off on the right foot and not behind. Fry has implemented many changes including to the methodology of the car and it will pay dividends in the future. Agathangelou is here to help with the tunnel correlation & simulation tools and now Bigois is here to be HoA which will be a completely different approach than we're used to seeing with Costa or Tombazis. I'm sure there are more new hires than we currently know and I'm sure there will be more during the winter. Some of them might even be high profile. So yes, I think 2013 might very well be a good year for Scuderia Ferrari. And if Felipe can carry this current momentum through the winter & into next season Ferrari has a good shot at contending for the WCC. Forza Ferrari :up:


I think the toughest thing for Ferrari is they can never write off a season from the start. Every other team will have an excuse to do this from time to time - a new engine supplier, a new sponsor, a new factory, whatever. But for Ferrari, none of these count. No season is a clean sheet. So a new concept can't fail, it has to be botched and at least half succeed. Hard position to be in, but it's why pretty much everyone wants to prove themselves there.

As for next year, it's another year. Let's hope it's good. No predictions yet from this end, but I trust your judgement a bit after this season. Cheers.

Edited by oetzi, 20 November 2012 - 21:49.


#983 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:12

Ferrari will have a few small updates for Brazil. Lets hope they work & help Fernando win the WDC!! :up:

#984 oetzi

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:20

It's the toss of a coin now.

Let's hope for the best :up:

Edited by oetzi, 20 November 2012 - 22:20.


#985 Arry2k

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:40

Ferrari will have a few small updates for Brazil. Lets hope they work & help Fernando win the WDC!! :up:

Yes, let's hope they do. Forza Ferrari! Forza Fernando!

Oh and btw great post about the optimism for 2013 - totally agree. If Ferrari can start on the right foot and be competitive from the off then we can challenge and win.

#986 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:12

Yes, let's hope they do. Forza Ferrari! Forza Fernando!

Oh and btw great post about the optimism for 2013 - totally agree. If Ferrari can start on the right foot and be competitive from the off then we can challenge and win.


Thanks mate, yes I think 2013 can be a good year but only time will tell. As for the updates for Brazil, Fernando confirms in the article below there will be a few small updates. :up:

http://www.ferrari.c...n-new-york.aspx

#987 BackOnTop

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:47

Well, yeah. Except the teammate he had before Alonso. :p

I would suggest you get your eyesight checked.

Drivers Championship 2012
01 Sebastian Vettel 273
02 Fernando Alonso 260
03 Kimi Räikkönen 206
04 Lewis Hamilton 190
05 Mark Webber 167
06 Jenson Button 163
07 Felipe Massa 107
08 Romain Grosjean 96

Edited by BackOnTop, 21 November 2012 - 05:54.


#988 Abranet

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:57

I would suggest you get your eyesight checked.


I would suggest he means the same season they were racing together in the same car...

Ferrari have a chance, it may be a small chance but it is a chance that no other team are going into the final race with and considering pre-season it's a much bigger chance than most thought they would have.

I'm prepared for them not to win but I have seen enough this season to give confidence for the coming seasons.

#989 Massa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:55

I'm not one of these people who expect Ferrari to win every year. Far from it. But the teach team or the wind tunnel or something just isn't good enough. Ferrari have been distant 3rd best team this year, maybe 4th best team, and it's only the reliability problems of others that have kept Alonso in the fight. The guys who deserve credit at Ferrari are the ones who made the car so bullet proof.
I don't think anyone needs to be sacked. All they need to do is find out why updates that great in the wind tunnel are disastrous on track and do something to improve it.



So these teams are weaker than Ferrari. Speed is not all. And the guys who made the car so bullet proof are the same guys who design this car...

#990 Massa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:10

I think Ferrari have simply hit a development roadblock in the latter part of the season. Very few ideas have worked at the rear of the car and it is not like the ideas were bad because Red Bull have incorporated similar rear wing endplates and they actually got the front wing to work as well as the rear wing to work eventually.

There is something about this car that is making development a nightmare and my suspicion is that it is the huge sidepods which are probably generating more lift than the opposition and constricting airflow to the rear.



I think the same. Look at Sauber or Mercedes sidepost, and the F2012 sidepost... It's night and day really.

#991 Massa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:22

Having said the model usually backs up what I see, that's just not right.

He was penned up, got free, and was pretty much the quickest car on track once he got free.

I think the championship and race situations make this a tricky one for a model to work with.



There is a site Mclaren F1 something like that, where you can see the laptime lap by lap... You will see that even in free air, Massa was slower than Hamilton and Vettel... Before i can saw the laptimes i was sure that Massa had the pace too, but in fact not.

But, the tyre degradation was much better than Alonso, Fernando was so slow at the end of the first stint, i think something was wrong on his car. Anyway, Massa was the better driver this weekend.

#992 topical

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:25

So these teams are weaker than Ferrari. Speed is not all. And the guys who made the car so bullet proof are the same guys who design this car...


Actually I doubt that the guys who provide reliable alternators and gearboxes are the same guys who are incapable of producing front or rear wings that work.
Anyhow, this year is almost over. The car was clearly not Ferrari's best, also not its worst. We'll see what 2013 brings.

#993 topical

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:26

There is a site Mclaren F1 something like that, where you can see the laptime lap by lap... You will see that even in free air, Massa was slower than Hamilton and Vettel... Before i can saw the laptimes i was sure that Massa had the pace too, but in fact not.

But, the tyre degradation was much better than Alonso, Fernando was so slow at the end of the first stint, i think something was wrong on his car. Anyway, Massa was the better driver this weekend.


Most likely the new diffuser was the problem. We'll see how Fernando goes in Brazil if he races with the old one.

#994 as65p

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:07

There is a site Mclaren F1 something like that, where you can see the laptime lap by lap... You will see that even in free air, Massa was slower than Hamilton and Vettel... Before i can saw the laptimes i was sure that Massa had the pace too, but in fact not.

But, the tyre degradation was much better than Alonso, Fernando was so slow at the end of the first stint, i think something was wrong on his car. Anyway, Massa was the better driver this weekend.


Thanks for pointing that out. This was slowly developing into a myth how Massa might have won the Austin GP :p .

And yes, he had better pace than Alonso all weekend.

#995 as65p

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:09

I would suggest you get your eyesight checked.



I would suggest he means the same season they were racing together in the same car...


:up:

#996 One

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:45

Lol. No :lol:


You think they haven't? Look at where the F2012 was in winter testing. Now Fernando has a chance to win the WDC. The F2012 has been the most reliable car on the grid all year. It has won races & gotten many podiums.

All the above qualifies as a good job for me.

I read some bits about it.

Good technical team can design a car that is:
1. fast straight out of the box and
2. has high ceiling for development thoroughfare out he season
3. with parts which has clear parameter of performances.

Ferrari's 2012 contender did not hit the peak in any of the point. But the technical director knew not to panic and improving, which was great. But after all lack of superior platform gave more trouble than advantage. I must say J kind of recall more cases where new parts did not produce performance advantages. Look at Alisjn's team where new parts Ard tested during Friday morning and given up for the second and third test when it did not perform as expected. At USA it looked like if was better for Fernando'z car to go back to older model. Could switched the car if necessary....

#997 oetzi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 13:25

There is a site Mclaren F1 something like that, where you can see the laptime lap by lap... You will see that even in free air, Massa was slower than Hamilton and Vettel... Before i can saw the laptimes i was sure that Massa had the pace too, but in fact not.

But, the tyre degradation was much better than Alonso, Fernando was so slow at the end of the first stint, i think something was wrong on his car. Anyway, Massa was the better driver this weekend.

I've not got time to look now, I will in a bit.

Certainly in the first stint Massa was putting in fastest laps as soon as he got in clean air. He was on the pace of the leader until the first stop. Then he had traffic to deal with after his stop, then he got back on the pace of the leaders, then he had nowhere to go (wasn't going to beat Alonso, was he?) and backed off. I don't reckon he was more than a tenth or so off Vettel's pace. Maybe on it. But because of the race situation he didn't keep that pace up consistently.

That's what it looked like to me.

Of course, I have been known to be wrong.

#998 kosmos

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:14

Posted Image

#999 jstrains

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:18

If Fernando had the same old car like Felipe in Austin, would he be in challenge for the victory?

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#1000 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:47

The F2013 will retain the front pull rod suspension. And Fry said he regrets not developing DDRS for the F2012. Next years car will be an evolution of the F2012.