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Ferrari F2012 part IV


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#1751 Nonesuch

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:02

The latest Ferrari F2012 updates from Piola via AMuS

A video of the updates can be found here--> http://www.auto-moto...ri-6180979.html

Thanks for posting. Excellent stuff by Piola as always, though I admit I have a special fondness for his drawings over this CGI. :up:

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#1752 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:45

Brawn at Ferrari... I think it's wishful thinking...
Full corriere delo sport article:

http://twextra.com/aj9fhp

Edited by TIFOlonSO, 29 November 2012 - 15:45.


#1753 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:22

You can see from the pictures below that Adrian Newey & Red Bull followed Ferrari's development path with the 6 plane front wing. Although there wasn't a big fuss about it when RB did it. Lol. Figures.

Posted Image
Posted Image

#1754 four1

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 16:58

I don't want Brawn back at Ferrari. He hasn't looked like much of a "dream team" kind of guy the last 3 years, despite having a huge budget at his disposal and another ex "dream team" buddy driving for him.

#1755 FirstWatt

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:10

So its spreading through Internet fast:

Ross Brawn might come back to Ferrari !!!


Sources: Corriere dello Sport and http://www.blogf1.it...rno-in-ferrari/

OMG. I really hope this will not come true.
Performance?
I'm still convinced that his contributions in the golden Ferrari era are much less important than they seem to be. The car was quick because of Rory Byrne, and not because of him.
Mercedes in the last years? Catastrophic. Much worse than Ferrari.

Reliability? Mercedes didn't excel...so his contribution was either not existent or bad. Ferrari is excellent, no action needed.

Strategy? Mercedes team and some erratic strategy calls in the last years.....he is not the genius the media made us believe. Ferrari was excellent this year. No action needed.

#1756 TigersWood

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 19:10

Yes, obviously someone like Ross Brawn is totally out of place of this Ferrari, which has clearly stated its fenomenal technical team these years. Ask Fernando Alonso, see what he thinks.

Mercedes GP has not succeded because the entire team is not used to winning, and remember that Brawn GP won with the illegal double diffuser.

Having said that, it would be really great to have in the team someone who can read the rules and extract something from there that the other teams don't. A person like that is what Ferrari lacks. Always conventional.

Edited by TigersWood, 29 November 2012 - 19:10.


#1757 quasi C

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 22:29

They're saying it's just an idea floating around at Ferrari. Seems like it's pure speculation, just like the rest of the article.

#1758 ViMaMo

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:31

Rory can take the 2013 regulations and work from home. Maybe he can find loopholes while taking a shite, eureka?

--------------

One additional wish for 2013, hope the car is a beauty and hope FA+FM win maximum races in that beauty next year. Please no more of this Lego monster !!

Edited by ViMaMo, 30 November 2012 - 04:46.


#1759 George Costanza

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:43

Yes, obviously someone like Ross Brawn is totally out of place of this Ferrari, which has clearly stated its fenomenal technical team these years. Ask Fernando Alonso, see what he thinks.

Mercedes GP has not succeded because the entire team is not used to winning, and remember that Brawn GP won with the illegal double diffuser.

Having said that, it would be really great to have in the team someone who can read the rules and extract something from there that the other teams don't. A person like that is what Ferrari lacks. Always conventional.



Ferrari would need Rory Byrne to come back because, he can certainly take on Adrian.

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#1760 George Costanza

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:46

Not sure if I believe that. They say that Brawn will be technical director, Pat Fry car designer and Tombazis will have less power in th design department after 4 years of failure. They even said if AMG Mercedes change the name of the team, Brawn could "escape" easily. Looks like pure speculation to me.



To be fair, Ross was a great TD, but being a TP, I think he is out of touch there. Yes he won in 2009, but that was a different aspect.

#1761 AlexS

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:18

We need new people not old men.

#1762 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:09

New(ey) is old.

#1763 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:32

We need new people not old men.


Doesn't matter who we need when the competition is spending 630 Million on F1 in a single year. Ferrari has a large budget, but it's not that damn large! That's pretty hard to beat, as evidenced by the last 3 years.

#1764 Arry2k

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:44

Doesn't matter who we need when the competition is spending 630 Million on F1 in a single year. Ferrari has a large budget, but it's not that damn large! That's pretty hard to beat, as evidenced by the last 3 years.

Genuine question - who is spending that kind of money and what is the source?

#1765 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:54

Genuine question - who is spending that kind of money and what is the source?


Red Bull Racing & Red Bull Technology spent 585 million francs(US 630 Million) on the 2011 F1 season. Red Bull Racing's "F1 Budget is US 268.9 Million, which is 75.3 Million more than Mercedes and double that of Williams. But Red Bull Technology is who designs the chassis & Aerodynamics and is who employs Adrian Newey therefore RBT's budget counts towards the overall figure.

Source


If I'm not mistaken the Scuderia Ferrari F1 racing budget is around 250-300 Million. Trying to find credible data. Still it's hard to match that kind of money.

Edit: spelling*

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 30 November 2012 - 13:55.


#1766 Arry2k

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:57

Red Bull Racing & Red Bull Technology spent 585 million francs(US 630 Million) on the 2011 F1 season. Red Bull Racing's "F1 Budget is US 268.9 Million, which is 75.3 Million more than Mercedes and double that of Williams. But Red Bull Technology is who designs the chassis & Aerodynamics and is who employs Adrian Newey therefore RBT's budget counts towards the overall figure.

Source


If I'm not mistaken the Scuderia Ferrari F1 racing budget is around 250-300 Million. Trying to find credible data. Still it's hard to match that kind of money.

Edit: spelling*

Thanks Crucial mate.

#1767 sheepgobba

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 13:57

Red Bull Racing & Red Bull Technology spent 585 million francs(US 630 Million) on the 2011 F1 season. Red Bull Racing's "F1 Budget is US 268.9 Million, which is 75.3 Million more than Mercedes and double that of Williams. But Red Bull Technology is who designs the chassis & Aerodynamics and is who employs Adrian Newey therefore RBT's budget counts towards the overall figure.

Source


If I'm not mistaken the Scuderia Ferrari F1 racing budget is around 250-300 Million. Trying to find credible data. Still it's hard to match that kind of money.

Edit: spelling*


Wow if that is true then my god that's simply way too much

#1768 Arry2k

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:03

Wow if that is true then my god that's simply way too much

Agreed.

#1769 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:12

Red Bull Racing & Red Bull Technology spent 585 million francs(US 630 Million) on the 2011 F1 season. Red Bull Racing's "F1 Budget is US 268.9 Million, which is 75.3 Million more than Mercedes and double that of Williams. But Red Bull Technology is who designs the chassis & Aerodynamics and is who employs Adrian Newey therefore RBT's budget counts towards the overall figure.

Source


If I'm not mistaken the Scuderia Ferrari F1 racing budget is around 250-300 Million. Trying to find credible data. Still it's hard to match that kind of money.

Edit: spelling*


Why dont we include Ferrari 's (road car business) budget into account as well then - if we are talking about parent companies?

Edited by sailor, 30 November 2012 - 14:12.


#1770 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 14:26

Why dont we include Ferrari 's (road car business) budget into account as well then - if we are talking about parent companies?

Because thats different.

Basically, that article is saying Red Bull's total F1 budget was $630 million, considering Red Bull Technology contributes directly to the F1 program.

Ferrari's road program does not. Its a pretty big difference.

I'm a little skeptical of those numbers, though. Thats ridiculous if they're spending that much.

#1771 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:04

Why dont we include Ferrari 's (road car business) budget into account as well then - if we are talking about parent companies?


Because as Sean mentioned, Ferrari road car division does not have anything to do with F1. Adrian Newey doesn't even work for Red Bull Racing, he works for Red Bull Technology. Red Bull Technology is responsible for building the car, handling Aerodynamics, etc therefore it's budget is definitely applicable towards the total figure for the year. The source is legit and their info is legit as well.
Ferrari cannot spend 630M on an F1 season.
But you can see that the likes of Ferrari and RB(Racing Budget) spend much more than Mercedes for instance which is quite interesting.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 30 November 2012 - 15:06.


#1772 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:10

Because as Sean mentioned, Ferrari road car division does not have anything to do with F1. Adrian Newey doesn't even work for Red Bull Racing, he works for Red Bull Technology. Red Bull Technology is responsible for building the car, handling Aerodynamics, etc therefore it's budget is definitely applicable towards the total figure for the year. The source is legit and their info is legit as well.
Ferrari cannot spend 630M on an F1 season.
But you can see that the likes of Ferrari and RB(Racing Budget) spend much more than Mercedes for instance which is quite interesting.


Point being that its misleading to include any other ancillary company which may help the F1 team division.

If we do that - then we do the same for all. Ferrari s parent org is helping with engine manufacture by lending its facilities , helping with R&D on materials etc. coz lot of its road cars use lightweight composites as well.

#1773 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:26

Point being that its misleading to include any other ancillary company which may help the F1 team division.

If we do that - then we do the same for all. Ferrari s parent org is helping with engine manufacture by lending its facilities , helping with R&D on materials etc. coz lot of its road cars use lightweight composites as well.

Its still not the same at all. The road car division benefits from the F1 program more than anything.

Edited by Seanspeed, 30 November 2012 - 15:27.


#1774 boldhakka

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:31

A large number of top personelle at the Scuderia came from the parent company, including one Stefano D. There's certainly benefit flowing both ways.

#1775 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:32

Point being that its misleading to include any other ancillary company which may help the F1 team division.

If we do that - then we do the same for all. Ferrari s parent org is helping with engine manufacture by lending its facilities , helping with R&D on materials etc. coz lot of its road cars use lightweight composites as well.


Christian is that you?? :lol: you surely sound like him. Nobody is building Ferrari's F1 car but Ferrari F1 Team. Nobody is doing Ferrari Aerodynamics but Ferrari. Twist & turn it any way you want mate.

#1776 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:33

A large number of top personelle at the Scuderia came from the parent company, including one Stefano D. There's certainly benefit flowing both ways.

We're talking about money spent here.

#1777 boldhakka

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:43

I'm saying they would have had to spend much more to poach equivalent personelle from other top teams. So they're saving money, in effect. Free training ground to let the cream bubble to the top and promote to the Scuderia. Lower risk, lower cost (adjusted for equivalent quality).

And the discussion is also about transfer of technology. Transfer of personelle is germane for the same reasons.

Edited by boldhakka, 30 November 2012 - 15:48.


#1778 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:00

I'm saying they would have had to spend much more to poach equivalent personelle from other top teams. So they're saving money, in effect. Free training ground to let the cream bubble to the top and promote to the Scuderia. Lower risk, lower cost (adjusted for equivalent quality).

And the discussion is also about transfer of technology. Transfer of personelle is germane for the same reasons.

You're really having to stretch things here.

#1779 boldhakka

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:07

You're really having to stretch things here.


Not if you read my original post. It just said there are benefits flowing both ways, which is simple, factual, and germane. Since I had to connect the dots for your benefit, it looks like a stretch.

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#1780 sailor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:08

You're really having to stretch things here.


Not really.

there is an inherent difference between a manufacturer and a privateer teams.

Manufacturer will have infrastructure in place , including personnel and facilities (who can be pulled on demand at minimal expense). Spending activities will be the same - but will go into the books of the parent company because the parent already has created (or bought) the asset and depcreciating under its own books.

Privateers will have to spend much more on PAPER to even match that kind of performance because every penny spent goes to the books and thus is easily visible.





#1781 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 16:27

Not if you read my original post. It just said there are benefits flowing both ways, which is simple, factual, and germane. Since I had to connect the dots for your benefit, it looks like a stretch.

The original point by sailor was that its equivalent or similar to Red Bull spending twice as much each year on F1 than any other team. In supporting that notion, you are having to stretch things.

#1782 BorkoF2012

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 17:32

I don't appreciate Ross Brawn that highly, but I am pretty sure that with him in the team Fernando would have been WDC this year. He would have chosen better strategies for Monaco and Canada where the team and Fernando lost 18 points which should have been taken.

#1783 shonguiz

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 18:07

Red Bull Racing & Red Bull Technology spent 585 million francs(US 630 Million) on the 2011 F1 season. Red Bull Racing's "F1 Budget is US 268.9 Million, which is 75.3 Million more than Mercedes and double that of Williams. But Red Bull Technology is who designs the chassis & Aerodynamics and is who employs Adrian Newey therefore RBT's budget counts towards the overall figure.

Source


If I'm not mistaken the Scuderia Ferrari F1 racing budget is around 250-300 Million. Trying to find credible data. Still it's hard to match that kind of money.

Edit: spelling*

BS from the highest order.

#1784 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 19:50

I don't appreciate Ross Brawn that highly, but I am pretty sure that with him in the team Fernando would have been WDC this year. He would have chosen better strategies for Monaco and Canada where the team and Fernando lost 18 points which should have been taken.

Strategy was one thing that was supposed to be a part of Brawn's genius, along with the incredible reliability of the Ferrari's for a period.

But his stint with Mercedes has shown there was probably a LOT more to it than just him.

#1785 tomjol

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 20:13

Strategy was one thing that was supposed to be a part of Brawn's genius, along with the incredible reliability of the Ferrari's for a period.

But his stint with Mercedes has shown there was probably a LOT more to it than just him.


Or that in his new role he can no longer invest the same amount of time/focus in it.

(I think it's probably your suggestion, in the same way that we attribute all of RBR's success to Newey, there are always many others involved)

Edited by tomjol, 30 November 2012 - 20:14.


#1786 BorkoF2012

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 00:24

True, Luca Baldisserri came up with both Hungary '98 and France '04 tactics, but I still think Brawn would have than better than current crew in Monaco and Canada, maybe even Spain.

#1787 AlexS

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 00:54

New(ey) is old.


Precisely there isn't anyone like him in his generation. We need to find the next Newey.


Doesn't matter who we need when the competition is spending 630 Million on F1 in a single year. Ferrari has a large budget, but it's not that damn large! That's pretty hard to beat, as evidenced by the last 3 years.


We don't know how much everyone spend.
But even if that is true it is errouneous. Money isn't everything. Something that debt crisis should have teached everyone already.
Money doesn't buy good ideas if there isn't none to be bought. There is no growth without good ideas like there isn't a good car without good ideas.

This year the best car was Mclaren and without idiotic errors they should have got the title. Did they spend 600M$ or whatever was the real value?

#1788 boldhakka

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:35

The original point by sailor was that its equivalent or similar to Red Bull spending twice as much each year on F1 than any other team. In supporting that notion, you are having to stretch things.


:lol: What makes you think I was supporting that notion? One of these days the ghosts of the straw men you build and attack will come back to haunt you.

#1789 jstrains

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:01

http://www.ferrari.c...-s-opinion.aspx

#1790 Kelateboy

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:36

Ferrari would need Rory Byrne to come back because, he can certainly take on Adrian.

A full-time Rory Byrne will be Ferrari's best hope of taking the championship off Red Bull. Otherwise, Sebastian will walk away with his 4th straight title.

Red Bull should fix its only achilles heel next year - Magneti Marelli's alternators.

#1791 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:04

A full-time Rory Byrne will be Ferrari's best hope of taking the championship off Red Bull. Otherwise, Sebastian will walk away with his 4th straight title.

Red Bull should fix its only achilles heel next year - Magneti Marelli's alternators.


No he's not Ferrari's best hope, all due respect to Rory. I love him to death and he will always be one of the most influential members of Scuderia Ferrari. But we do not need to look backwards, we need to look forward.

Ferrari, Domenicali, Fry have been working to put changes in place and these changes take time. Ferrari have hired two top of the line Aerodynamic Engineers, Bigois & Sanchez. These two will help immensely. The F2012 was definitely behind the pack but it wasn't too bad. Ferrari can contend again in 2013 for the WDC & WCC if they fix a few things. In 2014 they will certainly compete. But no need to look back.

#1792 turssi

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 04:28

@CrucialXtreme: I think you should take a deeper look into company revenues and also verify if they are making profits or just spending 100รท of the investment injected in them before adding up budgets into gigantic wads of money.

Edited by turssi, 01 December 2012 - 04:30.


#1793 JBLeon

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 05:13

Few things:

1) Teams like RB or McLaren were able to improve the car on a dime and the folks at Ferrari seem to have lost that edge/ability (the wind tunnel was just an excuse, a very lame excuse).

2) Ferrari's got many things to worry about looking forward to 2013 but, in my honest opinion, the F12 gradually going to the deep end during the second part of the season must have lit up Maranello like a Christmas tree. To the point that now they have two things to worry about during winter testing: Putting together a good car and making sure it doesn't implode.

3) Massa HAS to deliver. Have a second driver on the sidelines just in case. I know, it would be very difficult to find one but it can be done. Without the Brazilian stealing points from the others, including Fernando, Alonso and him are fighting a losing battle.

Edited by JBLeon, 01 December 2012 - 05:15.


#1794 Kelateboy

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:03

No he's not Ferrari's best hope, all due respect to Rory. I love him to death and he will always be one of the most influential members of Scuderia Ferrari. But we do not need to look backwards, we need to look forward.

Ferrari, Domenicali, Fry have been working to put changes in place and these changes take time. Ferrari have hired two top of the line Aerodynamic Engineers, Bigois & Sanchez. These two will help immensely. The F2012 was definitely behind the pack but it wasn't too bad. Ferrari can contend again in 2013 for the WDC & WCC if they fix a few things. In 2014 they will certainly compete. But no need to look back.

A full-time Rory Byrne will be great for Ferrari. Of course, he has been a Technical Advisor for the F2012, but people could argue that he never left Ferrari because he's been a Consultant since 2006. But I would argue that he was never 100% into F1 then, and at times, dabbled into other projects like the defunct A1 GPs. I believe F2012 was different, and he put quite a bit of efforts into the car.

What F2013 needs is just a bit more speed and excellent efforts from Ferrari drivers in the qualifying. It has the best reliability of all 12 cars on the grid and a respectable top speed. The only way RB9 could edge F2013 is if it qualifies ahead, has perfect start and drive into the distance - basically the same stuff Red Bull has been doing in the last 3 years. This year, we know for a fact that Ferrari is able to overtake Red Bull in the race, but the same can't be said otherwise (due to RB low top speed).

#1795 Bruce

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 15:03

No he's not Ferrari's best hope, all due respect to Rory. I love him to death and he will always be one of the most influential members of Scuderia Ferrari. But we do not need to look backwards, we need to look forward.

Ferrari, Domenicali, Fry have been working to put changes in place and these changes take time. Ferrari have hired two top of the line Aerodynamic Engineers, Bigois & Sanchez. These two will help immensely. The F2012 was definitely behind the pack but it wasn't too bad. Ferrari can contend again in 2013 for the WDC & WCC if they fix a few things. In 2014 they will certainly compete. But no need to look back.



Exactly.

Returning to a fabled past for comfort is not going to help in todays F1 - the circumstances are totally different, and a major shake up at Ferrari would merely slow down development on the car.

Ferrari is moving in the right direction, and they're not that far off. With good work in the winter they can be there or thereabout. Ferrari need a tiny amount of time in addition to what the others make this off season. Alonso missed the WDC by 3 points - it was that close - and while we cannot expect another season like the last one next year (you know - 7 different cars winning the first 7 races) we do know that Ferrari is not THAT far off.

#1796 rodlamas

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 16:20

As long as the car is still red, Fernando will never be the WDC again.;)

He said that once, now he is getting what he wished for.;)

#1797 fabr68

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 16:59

Any news, rumours on the 2013 car?

#1798 bonjon1979a

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 17:18

Any news, rumours on the 2013 car?


Apparently it's going to be red and have five wheels...

#1799 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 21:13

Any news, rumours on the 2013 car?


It's a little early mate. We have Fry saying the car will retain the pull rod front suspension. That's about it thus far and that's far from a rumor. I would think closer to the end of December & January will be when info starts coming out. :up:

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#1800 bourbon

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:01

Christian is that you?? :lol: you surely sound like him. Nobody is building Ferrari's F1 car but Ferrari F1 Team. Nobody is doing Ferrari Aerodynamics but Ferrari. Twist & turn it any way you want mate.


They have two teams. Divide the money between them and they are right in range with everyone else. As a matter of fact, they may be lower because of the FIA's mandate that the teams have to have separate divisions.