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Ferrari F2012 part IV


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#1851 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 14:23

Aww no early debut?

Also, this no new car thread thing is really silly. Yea, there's no concrete news about them, but it makes less sense to post about it in a thread about the car the year before.

Its nice to have a new thread to kind of put 2012 behind us and get us looking forward.

EDIT: Actually, there IS concrete news. The bit about being from a different design team and everything, launch news, etc. All stuff that would fit perfectly in a new thread dedicated to the 2013 car.

Edited by Seanspeed, 21 December 2012 - 14:27.


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#1852 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 15:17

EDIT: Actually, there IS concrete news. The bit about being from a different design team and everything, launch news, etc. All stuff that would fit perfectly in a new thread dedicated to the 2013 car.


Which was the point I was trying to make, but I didn't want to preempt showtime, who was the first to post these news here. Just being considerate, is all :kiss:

#1853 Timstr11

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 15:55

On the first one - yes, it's the TMG facility. More details plus exclusive pictures here - F1 Framework - Inside Wind Tunnels. The TMG has lastly been undergoing major overhaul in 2006, so it's a very stable base.

Massive facilities there.
Toyota have 2 identical tunnels on the same site so plenty of capacity and they should have no problem to slot in.

#1854 showtime

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 16:24

Which was the point I was trying to make, but I didn't want to preempt showtime, who was the first to post these news here. Just being considerate, is all :kiss:


Feel free to open a new thread, if I didn't is because I thought the new info wouldn't be important enough for the mods to allow it. Next time don't even think about it, it's not important who is the first to post the info or who opens a thread. Appreciate the gesture anyway :up:

#1855 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 16:46

Mods will probably close the thread, though. Doesn't seem like anything will be new thread worthy until we see the actual car or something. So I guess until then, all the rumors and bits will have to be talked about in here, where it makes little sense to.

#1856 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 20:10

Mods will probably close the thread, though. Doesn't seem like anything will be new thread worthy until we see the actual car or something. So I guess until then, all the rumors and bits will have to be talked about in here, where it makes little sense to.


Well, from the sticky: "when there is some concrete news or even good rumours about that particular car, then a thread can be started. " I'll do that now.

Edit: Let's see ... http://forums.autosp...howtopic=179186

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 21 December 2012 - 20:26.


#1857 Beyond

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:42

According to the italian journalist Turrini, Luca Colajanni decided to change his position in the Scuderia and will not be head of press office from next year. He doesnt say what his role will be.

#1858 kosmos

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:38

According to the italian journalist Turrini, Luca Colajanni decided to change his position in the Scuderia and will not be head of press office from next year. He doesnt say what his role will be.



I hear a lot of journalists complaining about him, about how extrict he is and how they don't let the drivers do much with the media, I'm not sure if it's his doing or maybe the Scuderia policy no matter who is in charge of the press office.

#1859 Beyond

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:31

his attitude is very annoying. in the last couple of years he spoke less to the journalist during the races, there was a nice and polite woman instead and i guess everyone was happier about her.

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#1860 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:55

his attitude is very annoying. in the last couple of years he spoke less to the journalist during the races, there was a nice and polite woman instead and i guess everyone was happier about her.


Indeed. The nice women in the SF press office are Stefania Bocchi and Roberta Vallorosi.

#1861 kosmos

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:20

Scuderia Ferrari Racing News n.21 (ENG)



#1862 kosmos

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:08

Asked why Ferrari chose Cologne exclusively, team boss Stefano Domenicali said: "Because working in two wind tunnels would be too risky."

Team president Luca di Montezemolo added: "We will develop the 2013 car exclusively in the Toyota wind tunnel to avoid confusion and mistakes."


I'm glad they are not doing anything in Maranello, at least till the WT is fixed.

#1863 showtime

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:20

I'm glad they are not doing anything in Maranello, at least till the WT is fixed.


The question is, how soon did they realize that? How long have they been working only in Cologne? 2013 doesn't look very promising...

#1864 Iridescent

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 20:28

The question is, how soon did they realize that? How long have they been working only in Cologne? 2013 doesn't look very promising...


The facilities in Cologne have been used exclusively since the very start of the work on the 2013 project.

#1865 PoleMan

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:10

The facilities in Cologne have been used exclusively since the very start of the work on the 2013 project.

Encouraging to hear, Iridescent! :up: Hope springs eternal. It's just a matter of time (and properly calibrated equipment and updates that work!) before the faith of Ferrari fans is rewardedwith a WDC and WCC.

I believe 2013 could be their year, particularly if the car is fast from the pre-season and Felipe is "on it" from the start of the campaign.

FORZA FERRARI! :cool:

#1866 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:41

This comment by Alonso at Wrooom! gives some info on the F2012:

"We had a front wing that would give us two tenths of a second [in the tunnel]. We would keep testing it, bring it to the race track and then it would go even slower.

"There were times when what we were testing in the tunnel did not correspond to what would happen on the race track.

"So simply we remained a bit behind in the last few seasons.



#1867 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 15:00

Stuff like that is what really dashes my confidence in having a top car for 2013.

#1868 steferrari

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:10

Stuff like that is what really dashes my confidence in having a top car for 2013.

But the 2013 car was designed in the german wind tunnel no ? And it will be developed there as well from what i understand.

#1869 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 21:11

But the 2013 car was designed in the german wind tunnel no ? And it will be developed there as well from what i understand.


Absolutely, and FWIW Domenicali and Alonso both were optimistic that the 2013 car won't have these problems (in the various statements at Wrooom)

#1870 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:00

But the 2013 car was designed in the german wind tunnel no ? And it will be developed there as well from what i understand.

The F2012 was developed in the Cologne windtunnel at the back end of the season, too, but it didn't seem to do any good.

I've said it many times, but I'm very skeptical that its really the source of the problem.

#1871 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 22:29

The F2012 was developed in the Cologne windtunnel at the back end of the season, too, but it didn't seem to do any good.

I've said it many times, but I'm very skeptical that its really the source of the problem.


But the recent comments seem to indicate that for some reason they still used both tunnels in 2012, saddling them with additional problems to calibrate the data from Cologne and Maranello.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 January 2013 - 23:09.


#1872 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 00:14

Great AMuS interview with Fry: Pat Fry: "The car was not fantastic, but ok".

I'm currently translating, give me a few mins

#1873 showtime

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 00:41

Great AMuS interview with Fry: Pat Fry: "The car was not fantastic, but ok".

I'm currently translating, give me a few mins


Thanks!

#1874 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:08

Here it is: Pat Fry: "The car was not fantastic, but ok". Great AMuS interview, my translation:

The F2012 started the winter tests with problems. How big were they really?

Fry: Some things didn't work as planned. We also made a number of fundamental errors. Initially the task was to localize and fix those. The first test gave us a bad awakening, the second answered our questions, but we didn't have the time until Melbourne to react. That happened with the Barcelona update

What was it that was so wrong?

Fry: I don't want to talk about details. Most errors were in the aero. First we had to understand them. Our first exhaust version heated the rear tyres too much. For the season start we had to fix that with a different exhaust version. In Canada we returned to the original exhaust concept, but in a different form. This worked surprisingly quickly, looking at the problems other teams had with it.

Did you fix your wind tunnel problems?

Fry: Has anyone ever really solved their wind tunnel problems? Correlation between tunnel and track is always tricky, as long as you cannot put your race car into the tunnel. We have understood the deficits of the Maranello tunnel and are working on fixing them. In the mean time, we are using Toyota's tunnel. But Toyota's tunnel is not perfect, either. It's a tool, and you need to know how to use it and to interpret it. Everybody has correlation problems, but ours were greater in recent times.

How big is the danger to get bogged down by using two tunnels?

Fry: The more variables you are dealing with, the greater the chance to get lost. Your tunnel time is limited due to resource restriction. IF you need to correlate results from two tunnels and the track, it naturally becomes more complicated. Ideally you would like to have one tunnel that you understand completely. I hope that we will get there at one point.

Why was the F2012's race pace so much better than the quali pace?

Fry: That's a puzzle for us as well. Only in the middle of the season we were as good in quali as in the race. I don't know, either, what we would lose in the race by making our car quicker in quali. Many things have an influence. Just one example: you can have a DRS with a big top speed gain, but you might pay with a car that is unstable when switching the DRS. In the race this is not so important, because you rarely use DRS. Which means that with such a system you will be stronger in the race compared to quali. In the end everything comes down to one task: finding more downforce.

Was it because the Ferrari was kinder to the tyres, which was a handicap in quali because the tyres took longer to reach their working window?

Fry: That depends on the type of track. When the rear tyres were critical, our car was strong in the race. But that didn't have anything to do with quali. In quali, the important thing is to get the front tyres up to temperature quickly. Conversely, we had more problems in race trim on tracks where the front tyres were worked a lot. In short: our quali pace was always the same. In the race it depended on whether the rear or front tyres were the deciding factor.

Why was your car so good in the rain?

Fry: I don't think that the cause was our car. Rather, it was Alonso. Especially in Malaysia, when our car still was difficult to drive. He did an unbelievable job there. And when he was half a second faster than the rest in Hockenheim, that was the driver and not the car.

Why did the F2012 work better on high-speed tracks?

Fry: Did it? Okay, in Monza we could easily have been on pole without the problems at the rear suspension. I'm not so sure we were especially strong in Spa. But one could see our problems become bigger the more downforce the track required.

Your main opponent had to track back from three or four development steps during the season, because the FIA outlawed them. Is Ferrari too well-behaved? Do you not exploit the gray areas of the rules enough?

Fry: There were things on other cars that were at the limit of the regulations. Illegal would be too hard a word. But if you angle a pull rod (? original: "Zugstrebe") at 27 degrees instead of the allowed 5 degrees, you are provoking your luck. How far do you want to go? I don't know.

Would you have liked to change something fundamental on the car during the season, but couldn't due to time constraints?

Fry: Not really. The things we wanted to change, we changed. The fundamentals of the car were ok. After we had fixed the aero problems, the car behaved the way we expected. Not fantastic, but ok. There was nothing that stood in our way. Ok, we had problems on some tracks to get the weight distribution the way we wanted it, but everyone had that particular problem. But that was only a small compromise.

Why didn't you try to control tyre temps by using adjustable break cooling inlets, like McLaren?

Fry: I had started to develop that concept when I was still at McLaren. It can be an advantage if you use brake disks by Carbon Industries. We had less problems with tyre overheating than McLaren. Therefore we passed on this development. We rather use KERS to influence the front and back brake temps.

How many different front and rear wings did you use during 2012?

Fry: Three families of front wings, with fifteen subtypes. We had six rear wing families, but used only three of those. We had 18 different floor versions. For the exhaust, we changed lots of things prior to the first race, because we had to solve the rear tyre heating. Then there was a big modification for Montreal, and that was it. We later tried to vary that position, but the Montreal version was the best solution.

Why did the car not react well to most of the modifications during the second part of the season?

Fry: We were a long way back at the start of the season. That always makes it simple to make big steps. For us, those came in Barcelona and Montreal. Usually, you can improve half a tenth or a tenth between two races, but the observer does not notice this, also because the effects of the improvements can vary from track type to track type. We also improved during the second part of the season, but not as much as the others did. There are two philosophies about how to develop your car. There's the Mercedes or Honda philosophy of waiting three or four races and then bringing a big step. And there's the way that is used by RBR, McLaren, and also Ferrari. To bring a little bit to every race. Every team has phases during which its improvements are bigger or smaller. McLaren had the best car at the start, then stagnated, and was strong at the end again.

Why did you not develop a double DRS like RBR or Merc?

Fry: We looked at the Merc system in detail. It gives you an advantage in quali, because you can run less ride height at the front. But honestly we had more important problems to solve at the start of the season than working on a double DRS. I had to answer the question, do you want to gain 25 milliseconds by running the front of your car lower, or half a second by conventional development work and fixing errors? I believe that the double DRS has not only given Merc an advantage. The requirement of running channels inside the rear wing end plates causes limitations for the end plate shape. The channels through the car cause limitations for the whole rear. Had our car been quick from the first race, we might have developed in that direction. At the end, nobody went down the Merc route. All other variants of double DRS only tried to stall the flow at the upper and lower rear wing element at the same time.

The Ferrari was the only car with a pull-rod front suspension. Was it worth it?

Fry: In any case this was not our problem. You can lower the CoG und gain little aero advantages. We solved the structural problems well.

But it was difficult for the mechanics to adjust the front suspension?

Fry: It had already been difficult before. We had improved the service friendliness [of the pull-rod], but the introduction of the two vanes under the nose made it worse again. We have an approach to solve the problem for 2013. Rather an evolution than a revolution.

Will you keep the pull-rod front suspension on the 2013 car?

Fry: We will build on it, but it will look a bit different. I would not be surprised if some teams followed our example. When we talked about it for the first time, the reaction was: that's crazy. But when you weigh all advantages and disadvantages, it's not so stupid.

On average, Ferrari had the best pit stops. How did you achieve that?

Fry: We still can improve the speed of our stops. There is still a lot of development work in that direction happening on the car, such as the design of the wheel nuts, wheel hubs, brake drums, and the tools like jacks and guns. At the factory we already have an old car fitted with the 2013 suspension design, and the guys are busy practicing with that. Our pit stop average time is good. I know that Sam Michael at McLaren is proud of their pit stop record of 2.3 secs at Hockenheim. But he forgot to mention that their next stop took 11 seconds. And we won the race because we had the better stops on average. If you analyze the stops in detail, you can see we are the quickest from the car coming to a stop until the traffic light switches to green. We sometimes lose compared to McLaren during the subsequent acceleration from the pits. At McLaren, they let the car fall from the jacks without any kind of security margin. Sometimes, their front wing pushes the front jack out of the way when the car launches. That way, you can do 2.3 second stops.


Edit: typos

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 January 2013 - 13:15.


#1875 HPT

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:38

Pat Fry: "The car was not fantastic, but ok"[/url]. Great AMuS interview, my translation:



Thanks for the translation, Knuckles!

Interesting interview. I'm surprised he credited Alonso so much for their wet-weather performance. Makes me think that perhaps the supposed rift between them is really quite minor. But if it was all Alonso, then why wasn't he very good at Brazil? I guess it's always the combination of the car and driver.

Another really interesting thing is about McLaren's pitstops. No margin for error! I guess when you cut it that close you actually create more errors?

#1876 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:48

Thanks for the translation, Knuckles!

Interesting interview. I'm surprised he credited Alonso so much for their wet-weather performance. Makes me think that perhaps the supposed rift between them is really quite minor. But if it was all Alonso, then why wasn't he very good at Brazil? I guess it's always the combination of the car and driver.


I really think forumers made a mountain out of the molehill consisting of one sentence in one interview during a high-pressure time. Anyone doing some team work in their jobs has surely seen worse, and knows that such things are quickly dealt with in any half-competent organisation. I didn't get an air of lingering discontent from Alonso's Wrooom interviews about the new car and team.

Another really interesting thing is about McLaren's pitstops. No margin for error! I guess when you cut it that close you actually create more errors?


At least you make a big error out of every small one.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 January 2013 - 01:48.


#1877 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:48

That might be the best interview I've ever read in regards to F1.

Thanks a bunch for that. I think it might deserve its own thread if the mods weren't so uptight about thread micro-management. Tons of insightful info in there that could apply to many teams.

EDIT: Actually, I say you should make a thread with that. Title it something thats not Ferrari-specific like Pat Fry Candid Interview or something. If the mods complain, I got yo back. :p

Edited by Seanspeed, 19 January 2013 - 01:51.


#1878 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:52

That might be the best interview I've ever read in regards to F1.

Thanks a bunch for that. I think it might deserve its own thread if the mods weren't so uptight about thread micro-management.


Yeah, finally someone asks some of the questions we had, and the interviewee actually answers them, instead of pretending to believe that fans are too stupid or uninterested to understand or care. My respect for Fry has been growing all the time since I've started to notice him (i.e., after the move to the Scuderia), and I like him more and more.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 January 2013 - 01:58.


#1879 HPT

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:53

That might be the best interview I've ever read in regards to F1.

Thanks a bunch for that. I think it might deserve its own thread if the mods weren't so uptight about thread micro-management.


Funny you said that. I don't want to start a thread and to be honest, I don't even know if I'm allowed to about things like this, and I certainly don't want to derail this one, BUT I find myself visiting the forum so much less after the mods killed off the drivers thread and then started splitting everything up.

Anyways, back on topic...I do agree this is one of the best interviews in a very long time.

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#1880 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:58

EDIT: Actually, I say you should make a thread with that. Title it something thats not Ferrari-specific like Pat Fry Candid Interview or something. If the mods complain, I got yo back. :p


Done


#1881 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:36

Thanks for the translation, great read :up:

#1882 boldhakka

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:44

Here it is: Pat Fry: "The car was not fantastic, but ok". Great AMuS interview, my translation:



Edit: typos


Nice interview, thanks very much for the translation.

#1883 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 18:38

Interesting Scarbs article about rear pull-rod access solution of Ferrari-engined teams in 2012

#1884 discover23

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 18:53

Stuff like that is what really dashes my confidence in having a top car for 2013.

already starting the year with a negative attitude?
We did a great job last year.. RebBull simply did a better job than us.

#1885 cokeb

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 20:27

already starting the year with a negative attitude?
We did a great job last year.. RebBull simply did a better job than us.

As always, only one team can win the championship.

You can have 10 teams doing an outstanding, even perfect job, and still only one of them will win.

It helps to remember that.


#1886 Seanspeed

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 22:45

already starting the year with a negative attitude?
We did a great job last year.. RebBull simply did a better job than us.

Already beginning with this 'negative' stuff whenever I'm just cautious about something?

If you're happy with the performance of the car last year, then I guess I just have different hopes for my favorite team.

#1887 AlexS

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 00:30

Yeah me too...