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Ferrari F2012 part IV


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#401 Mc_Silver

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 13:58

Not directed at you specifically, but your post reminded me of a question I wanted to ask: why do people think they know that some wing (or whatever) "is the same as used in X"? We know that aero performance can come down to minor things, teams seem to be directing air flow with a precision of a few centimeters. So if there is a FW in front of the garage that has roughly the same shape, number of flaps, etc., that's all we know - that its large features are the same as seen before. But the flaps could have slightly different shapes, maybe with differences of millimeters to previous versions (which would affect the flow to the back of the car significantly), and that's impossible to see.

Or am I missing something?


You are totally right mate  ;)

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#402 fabr68

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:25

They would have already had that chance before with the past 4(5?) years of running Ferrari engines. There's nothing to hide. Most of the 'trick' work gets done with the mapping, which isn't info that gets delivered to customer teams.


Agreed. But I was referring to the new V6 turbos, for which the design will be a key for the first few years.

#403 boldhakka

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:29

...
But the flaps could have slightly different shapes, maybe with differences of millimeters to previous versions (which would affect the flow to the back of the car significantly), and that's impossible to see.

Or am I missing something?


Changes to the front wing plates (vertical and horizontal) that impact performance significantly will be visually evident. If there are changes in the pylons and materials used, obviously a front wing that's a few millimeters closer to the ground will have a significant impact. But millimeter changes to the endplates and horizontal surfaces on a front wing cannot have a significant impact unless there are very many such small changes, which will again be visually evident.

#404 toxicfusion

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:41

Not directed at you specifically, but your post reminded me of a question I wanted to ask: why do people think they know that some wing (or whatever) "is the same as used in X"? We know that aero performance can come down to minor things, teams seem to be directing air flow with a precision of a few centimeters. So if there is a FW in front of the garage that has roughly the same shape, number of flaps, etc., that's all we know - that its large features are the same as seen before. But the flaps could have slightly different shapes, maybe with differences of millimeters to previous versions (which would affect the flow to the back of the car significantly), and that's impossible to see.

Or am I missing something?


I think it comes from the idea that the new pieces are never on show in the pit-lane in the days before practice. So they must be older bits that were raced elsewhere.

Edited by toxicfusion, 15 November 2012 - 14:41.


#405 jstrains

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:45

AMS states that Toro Rosso switches to Renault, so they will have to leave the CIRCUIT in the future to let Vettel pass... Force India and Ferrari is better for us :wave:

Here the front wings from Austin
Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by jstrains, 15 November 2012 - 14:50.


#406 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 15:54

why do people think they know that some wing (or whatever) "is the same as used in X"? We know that aero performance can come down to minor things, teams seem to be directing air flow with a precision of a few centimeters.
...
Or am I missing something?

No, you are not missing anything, that is a valid question. It's just my second job to be tech analyst and I have large gallery with pictures which I can compare. Hence, I can almost certainly tell whether something new has been introduced. Small changes, which are not visible to the human eye are unlikely to bring large difference in performance, especially when it comes to front wing, which is usually a part with couple of elements whose primary workload is to divert air to a very known places.
Back on what @boldhakka says above: ground clearance (ride height) is something that affects the car's performance quite a lot, but this is again something that's not easily visible from the track, especially when we have different shooting angles. 30 mm front ride height is a good ballpark number, so in that department millimeters count.

It also helps to have seen both wind tunnel smoke plume visualizations, as well as CFD turbulent models for open-wheel race car.

Next we have production time frames plus packing and logistics, which definitely reduces the time to create new front wing, test it and send it on the track - Mclaren did that on the last YDT that has taken place at Yas Marina. Today, they are bolting the wing onto the pylons.

Whether or not certain team decides to race a particular wing is something that I can't tell for sure. You can't, however, be that much certain about other parts of the car, such as suspension geometry, diffuser and exhaust placement. What I can't really agree with is remarks regarding the angles of attack on both the front and the rear wing - these changes are very hard to spot, as I write about it in my blog.

Here's a picture showing the changes done for the AoA on a front wing main plane:

Posted Image

Cars usually arrive with 0 AoA setup.

Again, good question, it's just the front wing really small millimeter changes do not bring large effect.

Edited by kvarbanov, 15 November 2012 - 15:58.


#407 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 19:19

Changes to the front wing plates (vertical and horizontal) that impact performance significantly will be visually evident. If there are changes in the pylons and materials used, obviously a front wing that's a few millimeters closer to the ground will have a significant impact. But millimeter changes to the endplates and horizontal surfaces on a front wing cannot have a significant impact unless there are very many such small changes, which will again be visually evident.


If (as is the case) parts of the FW direct air over/around the car to influence the flow to the RW, then I would imagine that it can make a lot of difference if, say, the rear end of a FW flap is one millimeter higher than before.

EDIT: And about the SF updates, there were several pieces of news recently claiming that during the recent straightline test they mainly tested refinements to the updates introduced in AD. I don't believe we can expect such refinements to be always clearly visible (and conclude that nothing at all changed about a given piece if we can't see it)

I think it comes from the idea that the new pieces are never on show in the pit-lane in the days before practice. So they must be older bits that were raced elsewhere.


Maybe, but then if a change is not readily visible it would not make much of a difference to display them. But yeah, maybe what you wrote influences peoples' opinions

@kvarbanov: thanks for the insightful comment!

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 15 November 2012 - 19:32.


#408 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:35

no one posting anything with 4 hours to go until the FP1. Creepy.

#409 NeilMick

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 13:42

Most people in the UK will be at work (like me) :lol:

#410 ZuTiMa

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 13:47

Most people in the UK will be at work (like me) :lol:



Get your a$$es home ... about an hour to go haha

#411 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:00

Hopefully the cooler conditions play into our hands. If Red Bull have an 'off weekend', we could really bring this down to the line.

Things will still be difficult, though:

If Alonso wins and Vettel gets no points(best-case scenario)

- Alonso will lead by 15 points going into Brazil
- Title would be secure with 4th place or better
- If 5th-8th, Vettel would have to win
- If 9th, Vettel would need 2nd
- If no points, Vettel would need 3rd

Highly unlikely, obviously, but man that'd be nice. More realistically, if Alonso can cut the gap down to 5 points or so, it'd really open things up nicely.



#412 tifosii

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:05

I got a feeling that we will lose the title after the race..RB will dominant the whole weekend
and Fernando looks very serious in the press conference,i think maybe he is aware of that
whatever,i hope i am wrong

Edited by tifosii, 16 November 2012 - 14:11.


#413 fabr68

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:21

Qualifying is going to be painful. There is a high chance of Vettel on pole and Alonso in 6th or 7th. Which should turn this thread into a disco funerary.

Even if Sunday things are not that bad and Alonso recovers to have a living chance for Brazil, I think this Saturday is going to be the worst day of the season for all Tifosi.



#414 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:26

Guys, don't forget that this is a completely new track meaning that suprises are always possible. First and second sector look good for us whereas the third one will obviously be a problem.

#415 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:29

Qualifying is going to be painful. There is a high chance of Vettel on pole and Alonso in 6th or 7th. Which should turn this thread into a disco funerary.

Even if Sunday things are not that bad and Alonso recovers to have a living chance for Brazil, I think this Saturday is going to be the worst day of the season for all Tifosi.

Practice hasn't even started. :confused:

#416 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 15:48

still early days but we don't look so bad comparing to Mclaren. God help us

#417 Gintonious

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:00

New front wing and other bits on the car, also reporting that the traction out of corners has improved, Sky saying that.

#418 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:01

What I find encouraging is that we usually struggle a lot on a dirty track. Now the car seems a lot better. However, it is still early to make any predictions.

#419 Claudiu

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:15

We still have the same old problems, fast in the first sector(with the fastest corners) and loosing time in sector 2 and 3 with the more slow and technical stuff.

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#420 Claudiu

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:15

I don't expect any surprises in qualy, once McLaren & RedBull get their cars dialed in I expect them to be in front of us in qualy.

#421 medeni73

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:18

actually we are faster than RB in Sector 2 too...

#422 Claudiu

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:31

Not anymore :-)

#423 kosmos

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:33

We look ok, lets see if a more rubbed track and higher temperatures help a little.

#424 currupipi

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:34

well at least we had 1 hour of hope, but 2,2 seconds wow

#425 Wingcommander

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:40

well at least we had 1 hour of hope, but 2,2 seconds wow


Panic mode already?

#426 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:50

well at least we had 1 hour of hope, but 2,2 seconds wow

Boy's trying to scare us, thats all. :p

#427 Claudiu

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:51

No panic mode but predictable results ... at least in qualy, I really hope that Ferrari can improve next year's car's slow corner performance ... it killed us this season.

#428 aray

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:51

having the downforce sorted out is absolute necessity....otherwise RB will massacre them in S3 at Austin....it is perfect RB zone to me....

no surprise there.... :well:

#429 currupipi

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:52

Panic mode already?


of course its friday :rotfl:

#430 currupipi

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:53

Boy's trying to scare us, thats all. :p


:rotfl: he achieved it


#431 currupipi

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 16:54

no surprise there.... :well:


true, but 1,3 seconds, didnt expect that much


#432 Abranet

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:05

true, but 1,3 seconds, didnt expect that much



Did Vettel stick some new rubber on?

I expect RB to be a head, don't expect it to be by that margin come qualifying.

#433 ViMaMo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:11

Probably only the Lotus will have a off weekend. Dammit !! 1 sec off.

#434 currupipi

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 19:25

Did Vettel stick some new rubber on?

I expect RB to be a head, don't expect it to be by that margin come qualifying.


i hope he did, i can handle not winning but at least competing, i would not like for us to lose the wdc this weekend getting lapped


#435 kosmos

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 19:42

i hope he did, i can handle not winning but at least competing, i would not like for us to lose the wdc this weekend getting lapped


Holy molly dude, have some hope.

#436 kosmos

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:18

Options not working very well for us.

#437 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:18

If Alonso qualifies second or third, he will have a chance on these two long straights against Vettel because Ferrari looks good in the first two sectors as we assumed.

#438 kosmos

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:35

P3 for tomorrow will be a great result but we will see tomorrow on FP3. Not enough laps in Fernandos long run to make a judgment.

#439 currupipi

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:40

Holy molly dude, have some hope.


true friday fp1 panic mode :lol:


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#440 ArkZ

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:47

The gap to Vettel is huge in qualifying lap but..... Alonso's time is almost identical as Webber's time , and IF Fernando could grab P2 in qualifying would be great . Button said P2 could be even better than PP here, also Fernando would be in the inside and might block Vettel in T1 but I fear McLaren once again will mix between Alo-Vet fight and Ferraris will start from 3rd row.

#441 Gintonious

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:04

Chances of a good weekend, I remain optimistic that this championship is not over.

#442 dreamerBiH

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:07

I have a strange feeling that Hamilton will somehow help Alonso to get this title. :-D

#443 ASFA2011

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:26

This is what is going to happens :
Vettel on pole for tomorrow , Webber 2nd and FA third , and on Sunday Vettel will get away cleanly and Alonso will take second from MW and will chase Vettel for more than half of the race and with a few laps to go Vettel's engine will blow in an spectacular way giving the win to FA and a 15 points lead going to Brazil where he will finish 3rd and will take his 3rd WDC .,,,,,,, well at least those are my dreams

#444 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:29

This is what is going to happens :
Vettel on pole for tomorrow , Webber 2nd and FA third , and on Sunday Vettel will get away cleanly and Alonso will take second from MW and will chase Vettel for more than half of the race and with a few laps to go Vettel's engine will blow in an spectacular way giving the win to FA and a 15 points lead going to Brazil where he will finish 3rd and will take his 3rd WDC .,,,,,,, well at least those are my dreams


Suzuka 2006 all over again... fingers crossed.

#445 Gintonious

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:35

"Anything can happen in Formula 1, and it usually does"

These words have been ringing in my ears for weeks, I don't believe in God, but I hope he is listening.

#446 CF22

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:42

This is what is going to happens :
Vettel on pole for tomorrow , Webber 2nd and FA third , and on Sunday Vettel will get away cleanly and Alonso will take second from MW and will chase Vettel for more than half of the race and with a few laps to go Vettel's engine will blow in an spectacular way giving the win to FA and a 15 points lead going to Brazil where he will finish 3rd and will take his 3rd WDC .,,,,,,, well at least those are my dreams


Yes, I have a feeling that will happen here or in Brazil, I think Fernando knows this as well but we still have to fight them and he's the right man for the job.

#447 redbarron

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:53

I don't think Alonso can beat Vettel for pole but he could start second. His fastest lap had a first sector which was 0.5 slower then what he was doing later in the session. Fingers cross for a top 3 start anyway!!

#448 amppatel

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:54

"Anything can happen in Formula 1, and it usually does"

These words have been ringing in my ears for weeks, I don't believe in God, but I hope he is listening.


You know your screwed when your relying on LUCK!

#449 zottzell

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:59

This is what is going to happens :
Vettel on pole for tomorrow , Webber 2nd and FA third , and on Sunday Vettel will get away cleanly and Alonso will take second from MW and will chase Vettel for more than half of the race and with a few laps to go Vettel's engine will blow in an spectacular way giving the win to FA and a 15 points lead going to Brazil where he will finish 3rd and will take his 3rd WDC .,,,,,,, well at least those are my dreams


Bit tragic to hope for reliability problems at the competition, but at this point ill take it if it means a Ferrari win.

However my prediction is Vettel starting from first or maybe second row, with the wildcard being Hamilton for pole. Alonso is gonna start from third or maybe even fourth row and take one or maybe two position directly at the start. Vettel's then going to cruise to a second or maybe even a win (if Hamilton have some malfunction) and Alonso is gonna end up at third, I mean why should this weekend be any different the the rest this season? The F2012 simply isn't fast enough, I would say its third or even fourth fastest in qualification and third fastest in the race, only reason Alonso is where he is is due to good reliability, a good portion of luck with the contenders poor reliability and other screw-ups and some spectacular driving from Alonso.

After the race Ferrari's gonna blame wind-tunnel correlation problems and Alonso's gonna say that he still in the running and he's never gonna give up the fight.
I know it may sound quite pessimistic but this year (again) have been mostly a dud in my opinion.

#450 topical

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 22:00

Now that we've all given up hope of Alonso challenging Vettel on pace it seems we retreat into fantasy land and actually end up more optimistic as a result? This is desperate, boys...

Far more likely is Vettel on pole, Alonso p.5 or p.6, he'll fight his way up to third, second if very lucky (i.e. Webber and McLaren have reliability problems) and Vettel cruises to another win, at which point we all start a rain dance for Brazil.

Edited by topical, 16 November 2012 - 22:02.