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Perez/Grosjean/di Resta/Webber incident


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#1 Muppetmad

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:34

I thought this deserved an individual topic as it was a particularly contentious incident.

Personally, I'm shocked at Perez's driving there. He veered from off the circuit straight into the path of Grosjean. He's lucky that he was still in the race, it could easily have been a large penalty for Austin otherwise. This is one incident I would have liked to have been investigated after the race.

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#2 likeRacing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:39

I thought this deserved an individual topic as it was a particularly contentious incident.

Personally, I'm shocked at Perez's driving there. He veered from off the circuit straight into the path of Grosjean. He's lucky that he was still in the race, it could easily have been a large penalty for Austin otherwise. This is one incident I would have liked to have been investigated after the race.


I am shocked at a lot of these guy's driving. Stupid amateurs. Perez has gone downhill ever since he signed for Mclaren.

#3 Bunchies

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:40

Mclaren signed the wrong Sauber driver.

#4 DracoN

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:41

Perez is over confident.

#5 dau

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:44

I'd blame Perez. You can't come back onto the racing line like that and expect Grosjean to make way. He also ran Di Resta off the track, so he should've given the place back anyway - really, really unnecessary.

#6 TFLB

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:46

Completely Perez's fault. You can't just rejoin the track and expect nobody to be there. If Maldonado had done that this thread would already be several pages long with people calling for him to be banned.

#7 Paul084

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:47

It was very bad driving by Perez in that he forced a driver off the track and then just turned into Grosjean like he wasn't there. At least the stewards gave him the maximum penalty for the crash he caused.

Edited by Paul084, 04 November 2012 - 15:47.


#8 Shiroo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:47

Perez is not ready for top drive and he showed that today. Similar to Grosjean, he also has a car that is capable of fighting for podiums reguary and somehow he always choke or smt. Raikkonen has 193, Gro 90.

These drivers should stick in midfield teams for quite longer AND THEN move to big teams. I dunno why McLaren signed 22 year old guy to be their 2nd driver.

+ PErez is just too cocky, he even waved hand at Gro eventho it was his fault

#9 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:47

Perez has gone downhill ever since he signed for Mclaren.

I think its more that people are starting to see what he's normally like now. Not saying he's a crash-prone driver necessarily, but he's been absolutely mediocre for most of the season. Since his Mclaren signing, people are starting to take a closer look at him.

He's not a bad driver, but I think he's been way overhyped.

#10 topical

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:48

Looks like Luca DiM at Ferrari has a better eye for analysing drivers than most people on this forum or Martin Whitmarsh. I remember everyone mocking Luca a couple of months back when he said Perez is not ready for a top team. Since then we've had plenty of evidence why.

#11 Disgrace

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:52

Disastrous driving from Perez. Shoved off di Resta then drove into Grosjean, whose broken wheel then sent him into Webber. As close to a race ban as you can get.

Edited by Disgrace, 04 November 2012 - 15:52.


#12 P123

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:53

Perez's fault, and a deserved penalty. Firstly he drove di Resta off track, after di Resta had been more than fair with the space he gave Perez, and then he rejoined the track without any regard for other cars being there.

#13 H2H

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:55


In situations like that one can plainly see that there is nothing like too much safety in F1, especially car-wise. Glad that everybody stepped out unharmed.

#14 Toffeli

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:56

Not sure have to watch it again. It was a total mess.

#15 nomi

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:00

Perez now got the Maldonado-itis.

He's too confident and cocky now.

He's lost his focus.

#16 wj_gibson

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:02

What kind of absolute tit steers the car in a hard diagonal line from a point off the outside of the racing circuit to the inside apex of the next corner and doesn't expect to be hit by someone else?

#17 Vickyy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:07

As many pointed out, he certainly has lost his head. Not saying because he is doing appalling off late, I remember in Monza he was showing his one hand driving skills to Marrusias 200 meter (approx) before the first chicane. Some drivers including Bruno Senna really needs to work on handling steering with both hands.

#18 ensign14

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:09

Mclaren signed the wrong Sauber driver.

Kobayashi doesn't come with the wealth of Mexico.

And Perez wasn't the only one who came from off track to interfere with other drivers. Mark Webber was another one.

#19 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:11

Where did Webber come from off track to interfere with another driver, and whom was that driver?

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#20 Muppetmad

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:13

Where did Webber come from off track to interfere with another driver, and whom was that driver?


I'm assuming this was the Webber/Massa incident (Webber came back on just as Massa was coming through the corner).

#21 HPT

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:13

I think its more that people are starting to see what he's normally like now. Not saying he's a crash-prone driver necessarily, but he's been absolutely mediocre for most of the season. Since his Mclaren signing, people are starting to take a closer look at him.

He's not a bad driver, but I think he's been way overhyped.


+1

Even the team's CEO has cautioned others when judging Perez and Kobayashi. The 3 podiums that Perez got was when he qualified behind his team mate and gambled on an alternative strategy which paid off. I think McLaren will find that they have signed a very mediocre driver soon.

#22 Currahee

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:15


Good drivers know when to back out of a move.

#23 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:17

I'm assuming this was the Webber/Massa incident (Webber came back on just as Massa was coming through the corner).


Massa ran Webber off the track in the first place, Webber was rejoining the track and (in my opinion) likely would have ceded position to Massa, but Massa did a Massa and spun all by himself on the next apex. From there, there's not a lot Webber could do aside from race on and see what the Stewards had to say.

Webber didn't interfere with Massa when he came back onto the track. Distracted, possibly. But it showed up Felipe as being weak of mind if that's the case.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 04 November 2012 - 16:19.


#24 sosidge

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:19

I don't think there was anything wrong with the move on DiResta. He tried something, it didn't quite work, he bailed out. The mistake was turning in on Grosjean. It was stupid and unnecessary.

#25 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:20

We'll see what Perez can do next year. I dont want to judge him on his recent races. I mean, nobody expected anything from Hamilton in 2007 or from Raikkonen in 2002 and they amazed everybody. So let's wait and see what PĂ©rez does in his first few races for McLaren.

McLaren clearly wanted a driver with similar driving style to Hamilton as they already have a steady one with Button. So the likes of Di Resta and Hulkenberg wouldn't have helped them. Those two are carbon copies of Jenson.

#26 Muppetmad

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:26

Massa ran Webber off the track in the first place, Webber was rejoining the track and (in my opinion) likely would have ceded position to Massa, but Massa did a Massa and spun all by himself on the next apex. From there, there's not a lot Webber could do aside from race on and see what the Stewards had to say.

Webber didn't interfere with Massa when he came back onto the track. Distracted, possibly. But it showed up Felipe as being weak of mind if that's the case.


I'm certainly not going to disagree with you, I'm merely saying what I thought ensign was talking about.

#27 Nonesuch

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:31

The great Taki Inoue, no stranger to odd accidents:

15:27 Perez shouldn't have come back racing line immediately. Poor #GrojeanStyle.



#28 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:32

McLaren clearly wanted a driver with similar driving style to Hamilton as they already have a steady one with Button. So the likes of Di Resta and Hulkenberg wouldn't have helped them. Those two are carbon copies of Jenson.

I very much doubt that driving style had anything to do with who Mclaren picked.

#29 Bunchies

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:35

I very much doubt that driving style had anything to do with who Mclaren picked.


I think they want a good sponsorship package, with the added benefit of selling MP4-12Cs in Mexico.

#30 Coral

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:35

Perez has had one disaster after another ever since he signed for McLaren...his racecraft seems to have been posted missing in action.

Whitmarsh must be wondering what one earth he has done!

#31 ensign14

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:37

I'm certainly not going to disagree with you, I'm merely saying what I thought ensign was talking about.

And you were correct.

Plus whether Massa is weak of mind is not the point. A driver being distracted by another driver coming from off track ended up with Ronnie Peterson being killed. But with Webber it smacked of team strategy - if he recklessly blundered into Massa's path it could only be good for Vettel. And of course it worked; Massa was conveniently put out of the way before Vettel had to cope with him.

#32 Konsta

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:39

Massa ran Webber off the track in the first place, Webber was rejoining the track and (in my opinion) likely would have ceded position to Massa, but Massa did a Massa and spun all by himself on the next apex. From there, there's not a lot Webber could do aside from race on and see what the Stewards had to say.

Webber didn't interfere with Massa when he came back onto the track. Distracted, possibly. But it showed up Felipe as being weak of mind if that's the case.

That is how I saw it as well. Felipe is just sooo fragile that it is not even funny.

#33 selespeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:44

perez was behind kobayashi after the start...overtook him...and overtook massa...and got f... by the safety car...after the stop he was behind slower drivers...his move was maybe too ambitious...but i don't think he clashed wheels with di resta...there is only one line through the chicane and he had the inside...di resta cut the chicane...and after going off the track he had grosjean sticking his nose in of the racing line which can be seen from webber onboard...you are slower and holding 3 guys up...don't stick your nose in there.
for me it is pathetic that perez got the penalty and everybody else got free...

#34 kpchelsea

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:47

Massa ran Webber off the track in the first place, Webber was rejoining the track and (in my opinion) likely would have ceded position to Massa, but Massa did a Massa and spun all by himself on the next apex. From there, there's not a lot Webber could do aside from race on and see what the Stewards had to say.

Webber didn't interfere with Massa when he came back onto the track. Distracted, possibly. But it showed up Felipe as being weak of mind if that's the case.

It looked like Massa spun to avoid hitting Webber

I don't think there was anything wrong with the move on DiResta. He tried something, it didn't quite work, he bailed out. The mistake was turning in on Grosjean. It was stupid and unnecessary.

If you call bailing out running him off the track? :confused:

#35 skywing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:47

perez was behind kobayashi after the start...overtook him...and overtook massa...and got f... by the safety car...after the stop he was behind slower drivers...his move was maybe too ambitious...but i don't think he clashed wheels with di resta...there is only one line through the chicane and he had the inside...di resta cut the chicane...and after going off the track he had grosjean sticking his nose in of the racing line which can be seen from webber onboard...you are slower and holding 3 guys up...don't stick your nose in there.
for me it is pathetic that perez got the penalty and everybody else got free...

The problem is that you can't just come thundering to the racing line from OFF the track. Perez fault 100%.

#36 MickStephenson

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:48

Perez was at fault and he deserved the stop and go penalty he received.

But the situation this occurred in is several magnitudes more complicated than other incidents that have occurred this year, for instance Perez would have been completely unaware of Webber's location if he had not been there Grosjean would have simply been ran onto the kerb.

In comparison Rosberg ran both Hamilton and Alonso off the track in Bahrain and received no penalty, Grosjean running Hamilton off the road at Spa, Maldonado in general, these incidents were undoubtably caused purely by over aggressive driving.

Perez has the mitigating circumstances of the fact that there were so many permutations involved that to predict what was about to happen in the new few seconds was very difficult. He deserved a stop and go, he caused the accident after all, but it's not at the same level of irresponsible driving as other incidents this year.

#37 Currahee

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:49

perez was behind kobayashi after the start...overtook him...and overtook massa...and got f... by the safety car...after the stop he was behind slower drivers...his move was maybe too ambitious...but i don't think he clashed wheels with di resta...there is only one line through the chicane and he had the inside...di resta cut the chicane...and after going off the track he had grosjean sticking his nose in of the racing line which can be seen from webber onboard...you are slower and holding 3 guys up...don't stick your nose in there.
for me it is pathetic that perez got the penalty and everybody else got free...


Perez and di Resta didn't touch wheels but he did force di Resta off track.

Who else should have been penalised?

#38 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:50

perez was behind kobayashi after the start...overtook him...and overtook massa...and got f... by the safety car...after the stop he was behind slower drivers...his move was maybe too ambitious...but i don't think he clashed wheels with di resta...there is only one line through the chicane and he had the inside...di resta cut the chicane...and after going off the track he had grosjean sticking his nose in of the racing line which can be seen from webber onboard...you are slower and holding 3 guys up...don't stick your nose in there.
for me it is pathetic that perez got the penalty and everybody else got free...

When you go off and in you're a tight pack of cars, you cant just expect that nobody will have stuck their nose in your spot when you come back on. Grosjean had every right to try and capitalize.

#39 selespeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:54

Perez and di Resta didn't touch wheels but he did force di Resta off track.

Who else should have been penalised?


there is only one line and he is side by side at worst with di resta...where should he go??

massa banged wheels with webber forcing him off the track...and webber comes on the track choping massa??? no penalty??

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#40 selespeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:54

When you go off and in you're a tight pack of cars, you cant just expect that nobody will have stuck their nose in your spot when you come back on. Grosjean had every right to try and capitalize.



yeah,,,so did lewis in valencia...

#41 Currahee

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:58

there is only one line and he is side by side at worst with di resta...where should he go??

massa banged wheels with webber forcing him off the track...and webber comes on the track choping massa??? no penalty??


He should maybe have backed out and got him on the following lap.

I hear your second point. Penalties can be quite inconsistent.

#42 Atreiu

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:03

Thats what you get with flat kerbs amd tarmac runoff.

Perez at fault.

#43 selespeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:03

He should maybe have backed out and got him on the following lap.



agreed...but once he's in he's in...he followed di resta for a few laps and even with drs on he didn't get any real oportunites...so once he got a chance he grabbed it...

#44 Currahee

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:10

agreed...but once he's in he's in...he followed di resta for a few laps and even with drs on he didn't get any real oportunites...so once he got a chance he grabbed it...


Yes he had a sniff and went for it but it was over ambitious.



#45 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:13

yeah,,,so did lewis in valencia...

Similar in some ways, not similar in others.

Perez was a ways off-track on the outside and just flew back right into the racing line.

#46 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:19

Amateur hour up and down the field today, contrast that with the superb racing we almost always get when it's the world champions going wheel to wheel.

#47 Wingcommander

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:10

Amateur hour up and down the field today, contrast that with the superb racing we almost always get when it's the world champions going wheel to wheel.


This. Some drivers have a lot to learn. Although on drivers like Webber and Massa i've already lost hope.

#48 Talisman

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:17

Perez now got the Maldonado-itis.

He's too confident and cocky now.

He's lost his focus.


Perez hasn't lost his focus at all, he's driving like he always did.

The difference is that now he's signed for McLaren people who normally follow Lewis vs Vettel vs Alonso are starting to watch Perez too and are picking up on his mistakes.

Typical bonehead move from a driver who Monisha calls temperamental where you have to live with his erratic driving.

Whitmarsh eat your heart out. You had all the time in the world to pick your second driver and you picked him. Good move....

#49 FenderJaguar

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:23

can't really agree that Perez has driven like this all season. He has been doing a lot more mistakes now that he has the McLaren contract. Some really stupid moves. Today was 100% his fault. Too ambitious and then to make it worse he was outside the track and just jumped in.

#50 selespeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:26

The difference is that now he's signed for McLaren people who normally follow Lewis vs Vettel vs Alonso are starting to watch Perez too and are picking up on his mistakes.



so as you obviously followed him all year what were his mistakes before signing for mclaren??