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Lotus reborn!


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#1 Tuboscocca

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 16:39

More than 25 years ago, the last (real) Lotus victory...

Ok a 'badged' Lotus, but nevertheless..

Regards Michael

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#2 Twin Window

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:22

As far as I'm concerned, today's race was won by a Toleman.

#3 kayemod

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:24

I don't buy it, not in the slightest.

Well, that makes at least two of us. An excellent drive by Kimi, one of my all-time favourite drivers, but completely meaningless in a Lotus context. However, if it had been the Tony Fernandez team in its original form, I'd have been slightly more excited, and at least if they'd done it a genuine ex-Chapman cap would have been thrown into the air.

#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:37

As far as I'm concerned, today's race was won by a Toleman.


At minimum there's more claim to the Renault legacy than the Lotus one.

#5 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:02

At minimum there's more claim to the Renault legacy than the Lotus one.


Indeed. Far too good looking to be any Toleman. It's a Renault.

DCN

#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:07

It is just a marketing exercise. They should have more respect for Chapman (Colin) and the huge legacy he has left to the sport.

Agreed absolutely. As others have said, this is possibly Benetton's 28th, Renault's 36th or Toleman's umpteenth win. I do wish they'd leave the Lotus legacy undisturbed.

#7 D-Type

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:14

Toleman, Benneton, Renault, Lotus, whatever. It's still nice to see someone other than the "usual suspects" winning - and winiing on merit and not by default.

The "Lotus" branding is unfortunately symptomatic of the way Formula 1 is going. I feel that "Eff One Ltd"® would rather have teams named for sponsors than have genuine manufacturers present. Just look at the screen graphics - it's all driver names and precious little about the cars they drive. I wonder how long before a race is won by a "Sugar-Ripe Prune" or a "Big Mac"?

#8 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:29

I wonder how long before a race is won by a "Sugar-Ripe Prune" or a "Big Mac"?

Well, we've had "Red Bull" already...


#9 john winfield

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:26

Yes, I'm very pleased for Kimi Raikkonen, delighted to see another different team win a Grand Prix this year, but mildly irritated to see the team referred to as 'Lotus'. BBC mentioned the Toleman - Benetton - Renault origins and, given the changes, that staff were happy to be referred to as the Enstone team. Sounds good to me!
I dreaded my first sight of updated Grand Prix statistics with 'Lotus' gaining a '...first GP win since 1987' but dear old Wikipedia has come up trumps and left 'Team Lotus' untouched on 79 wins, adding 'Lotus' at the bottom with 1. Bravo.

http://en.wikipedia...._(constructors)

Edited by john winfield, 04 November 2012 - 19:27.


#10 RTH

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:28

As far as I'm concerned, today's race was won by a Toleman.



Spot on - fine car the Toleman especially in F2 form.

#11 Slurp1955

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:38

Agreed absolutely. As others have said, this is possibly Benetton's 28th, Renault's 36th or Toleman's umpteenth win. I do wish they'd leave the Lotus legacy undisturbed.

Remind me, which F1 team lead us down this particular path ? :smoking:

Edited by Slurp1955, 04 November 2012 - 19:39.


#12 backfire

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:48

Remind me, which F1 team lead us down this particular path ? :smoking:


Surely you don't mean John Player Special!

#13 kayemod

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:54

Surely you don't mean John Player Special!


Or possibly Gold Leaf Team Lotus.


#14 Tuboscocca

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:57

What have I done..or written...??

Of course I know that's a marketing exercise.

What about Rosberg's Mercedes win?? It was a Tyrrell (BAR,Honda,Brawn, Mercedes) win...

Michael


#15 Slurp1955

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 20:01

Surely you don't mean John Player Special!

I was actually thinking of the Capstan Full-Strength Lotus 56B Nicojet Special, puffing around Silverstone in '71. Reine Wisell is another Scandinavian hero of mine, along with Kimi and the incomparable
Esbjörn Svensson.

#16 john winfield

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 20:22

I was actually thinking of the Capstan Full-Strength Lotus 56B Nicojet Special, puffing around Silverstone in '71. Reine Wisell is another Scandinavian hero of mine, along with Kimi and the incomparable
Esbjörn Svensson.


Thank you Slurp. I have now learned something about the Swedish and Danish jazz scene. Skön.


You're a little unfair to Reine. :) He was whooshing round Stowe in 1971. Wasn't it Dave Charlton doing the puffing, not liking the change from Lucky Strike to Gold Leaf?

#17 Charlieman

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 20:24

Spot on - fine car the Toleman especially in F2 form.


You mean the one that looked like a Ralt RT2 ;-)



#18 Slurp1955

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 20:51

[quote name='john winfield' date='Nov 4 2012, 22:22' post='6010601']
Thank you Slurp. I have now learned something about the Swedish and Danish jazz scene. Skön.


My pleasure, EST were a truly great band and the epitome of Scandinavian cool. Sadly Esbjorn Svensson died a couple of years ago
in a diving accident - I was lucky enough to see them in Manchester a couple of times - wonderful. I wasn't dissing Riene Wisell. That 71 British GP
was my first Grand Prix and the 56B did whoosh, albeit 11 laps down by the end. Still, at least I can say I saw it. JohnP :cool:
The Finns are an odd race. I went to Sepang in 1999 and there were a number of Hakkinen fans present. They had hats similar to the Aussie okker
ones that hold two tinnies of lager, except these had two bottles of Finlandia Vodka in each and they were all wrecked by eight in the morning.

Edited by Slurp1955, 04 November 2012 - 20:55.


#19 Slurp1955

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 21:07

Here's a picture for John Winfield from the 1971 British Grand Prix

Posted Image

This was back in the day when Paddock Access meant just that. JohnP :cool:

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#20 jj2728

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 21:31

Ah well, it was black and gold and named Lotus driven by a chatty Finn who I am sure would have preffered real bubbly to the rose water proffered on the podium. I'm not too terribly disturbed by any of it and I thought it was a decent race.

#21 uechtel

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 22:33

What have I done..or written...??

Of course I know that's a marketing exercise.

What about Rosberg's Mercedes win?? It was a Tyrrell (BAR,Honda,Brawn, Mercedes) win...

Michael


BAR, Honda, Brawn, maybe also Reynard a little bit, but was there real team continuity to Tyrrell? Didn´t they buy the team only for its FOCA franchise, but closed it down then?

Also in the Mercedes there might by a slight trace more continuity, as at least it is the same owner. Maybe like Frank Williams Racing Cars and Williams Grand Prix Engineering.

#22 kayemod

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 23:02

Also in the Mercedes there might by a slight trace more continuity, as at least it is the same owner.


And the same money.


#23 john winfield

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 23:11

Here's a picture for John Winfield from the 1971 British Grand Prix

Posted Image

This was back in the day when Paddock Access meant just that. JohnP :cool:


JohnP, thank you. Always good to see the Silverstone paddock in times past - the 1971 race was my second Grand Prix. From my point of view, you couldn't have posted a better picture; Ickx was my hero, Ferrari my team. Joy at Stowe on lap 1 as the two Ferraris screamed past in an unlikely 1-2, despair as Stewart picked off Ickx then swept by Regazzoni, all within three laps. Seppi looking feisty then cue tyre vibrations, Ferraris and BRMs all fall apart.
Sorry, all OT.

Vaguely back OT, my favourite moment from today's 'Lotus' win was Raikkonen telling his engineer over the radio to '... shut up, stop talking to me, I know what I'm doing!..', or something similar. Priceless. I've never heard him so animated.




#24 Nick Planas

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 23:26

JohnP, thank you. Always good to see the Silverstone paddock in times past - the 1971 race was my second Grand Prix. From my point of view, you couldn't have posted a better picture; Ickx was my hero, Ferrari my team. Joy at Stowe on lap 1 as the two Ferraris screamed past in an unlikely 1-2, despair as Stewart picked off Ickx then swept by Regazzoni, all within three laps. Seppi looking feisty then cue tyre vibrations, Ferraris and BRMs all fall apart.
Sorry, all OT.

Vaguely back OT, my favourite moment from today's 'Lotus' win was Raikkonen telling his engineer over the radio to '... shut up, stop talking to me, I know what I'm doing!..', or something similar. Priceless. I've never heard him so animated.


and the other bit, when they asked him to keep all four tyres warmed "Yes yes yes yes I'm already doing that"... love it.

I suppose, if Kimi could be bothered (which he isn't) he should come into the pits and say in that schoolmasterly voice so beloved of race engineers: "Don't forget to undo each wheel, take it off, and put a new one on, guys! Oh, and make sure you tighten the wheel nuts on, otherwise the wheels may fall off..."

#25 Peter Morley

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 00:26

Indeed. Far too good looking to be any Toleman. It's a Renault.

DCN


Fair point (except the TG280 looked fantastic) but can you say the modern F1 cars are good looking, apart from the dreadful stepped noses they still have the wide front wings and narrow rear wings (that failed to encourage overtaking) and various ugly add-ons.

I found it rather annoying when Brundle said he was in the last race that a Lotus won given that Toleman/Benetton were also in that race and they have rather more connection to the investment company who came first today (I've not seen much to convince me that F1 involves much racing these days - apparently you have to watch Le-Mans to see a flat out sprint nowadays).

Still Raikkonen's radio communications were great and could make great a answerphone message...

#26 frp

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:48

I dreaded my first sight of updated Grand Prix statistics with 'Lotus' gaining a '...first GP win since 1987' but dear old Wikipedia has come up trumps and left 'Team Lotus' untouched on 79 wins, adding 'Lotus' at the bottom with 1. Bravo.

http://en.wikipedia...._(constructors)

But the problem with that is that Team Lotus won only 74, and Rob Walker the other 5, although I also appreciate the Wiki compiler's differentiating between the real Lotus constructor and the Enstone Lotus. But with some constructors and/or teams having adopted several names through the years, and some names having been adopted by several different teams/constructors, it's quite impossible to keep a running statistical history of a competition which has changed its structure so much over the years. That list of 'Formula One Grand Prix winners' includes, in its total, 26 races which weren't Formula One, including 11 which weren't Grands Prix either, but I wouldn't fancy trying to explain it all to someone who's grown up in the modern era, where 'Formula 1', 'Grand Prix' and 'World Championship round' are one and the same.

#27 RonPohl

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:07

and the other bit, when they asked him to keep all four tyres warmed "Yes yes yes yes I'm already doing that"... love it.

I suppose, if Kimi could be bothered (which he isn't) he should come into the pits and say in that schoolmasterly voice so beloved of race engineers: "Don't forget to undo each wheel, take it off, and put a new one on, guys! Oh, and make sure you tighten the wheel nuts on, otherwise the wheels may fall off..."



"Leave me alone, I know what I need to do"

#28 2Bob

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:27

"Lotus reborn!"

Gave the results away for me who was going to watch the replay a few hours later in the middle of the day MY time.

Could we please have some thought to those in other parts of the world who were asleep when you posted your headlines.

Of course I didn't read the post but it was pretty obvious what the headlines meant.

Could we have a "spoiler alert" as the headline with only the contents of the post giving it away?

And before you say "well don't read the forum until after watching the replay" I have to point out that my day normally starts with the kettle going on for the caffine fix, then the computer on, then any emails while drinking the coffee, and then TNF for a quick (or more often a slow) scan for interesting posts.

Your headline Fuc*ed Up my day (as Kimi might say).

This was posted some 8 hours after I got to a point in the day when I could spend the required 2 hours to watch.

I have friend with reasonable power at his place of work who threatened to sack anyone who mentioned the results of the previous race (normally held the night before). The threat was enough. Oh and the nightly news wasn't watched until after the replay.

Apart from the above, when I got around to reading the post all the way through, I have to say, I don't really care whether it was a Lotus or not, and that Mark finally came a cropper of not really his own fault, I really enjoyed the race!

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:32

Now that the BBC gives only delayed coverage of some races, I don't look at TNF (or the news sites) till after I've seen the coverage, just in case. Seems you could adopt the same approach, 2Bob

#30 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:51

But why should we avoid TNF? I certainly avoid all news channels if I haven't seen the race live but the I wouldn't expect the same to apply to a nostalgia forum.

When the car that won yesterday's race was renamed last winter, we were told that Group Lotus was a sponsor, no more. Fair enough if they had the money but it turns out they hadn't and are no longer a sponsor. Why then, does the car carry the name Lotus in such large letters? I know that they can't change the name of the team without agreement from the other teams but why is the name of a former sponsor so prominent on the car?

#31 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:45

From my understanding, Proton Cars ( owner of Lotus ) provided the owners of this Toleman/Benetton/Renault team a £30 million loan. If they default over the 3 year term, Proton will own the team, buildings, everything. Proton and new parent company own the Lotus Group. Lotus themselves have not put a penny into this team in sponsorship, despite promises, so the team ended the agreement, however decided to keep the team name and logos on the cars for PR value, probably after Proton influence and the fact it is difficult to change team names..Bernie probably wanted it too. Certainly a big news story now for Lotus and everyone who does not realise there is not a single Lotus component in this car and not a single Lotus engineer on the team. Just a badge despite the fact Lotus Cars have nothing to sell. The ill informed will probably add the victory too to the Lotus tally of 79 wins as a 'constructor'. Great drive by Kimi though, a proper racer.

#32 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:59

Or possibly Gold Leaf Team Lotus.

We've discussed this many times. Often reported that Chapman started all of this tobacco sponsorship business, when infact Team Gunston beat him to it. Both Brabhams of the Gunston team in the 1968 South African GP on Jan 1st were Gunston branded, same colours as the fag packet, meanwhile Clark recorded the last victory for a green Lotus. A couple of weeks later...GLTL appeared in the TASMAN races.


#33 roger.daltrey

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:36

BAR, Honda, Brawn, maybe also Reynard a little bit, but was there real team continuity to Tyrrell? Didn´t they buy the team only for its FOCA franchise, but closed it down then?

Also in the Mercedes there might by a slight trace more continuity, as at least it is the same owner. Maybe like Frank Williams Racing Cars and Williams Grand Prix Engineering.



All very valid, and when Ross Brawn took over and called it Brawn - all last minute after Honda withdrew - one of the things he noticed (as part of due-diligence) was it was still the same company number from the Ken Tyrrell days.

Classic cars trace provenance through chassis numbers - surely businesses use the company registration number ??

So Kens old wooden shed company really did have another victory this year !!

#34 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:10

It is just a marketing exercise. They should have more respect for Chapman (Colin) and the huge legacy he has left to the sport. Just look at the racing cars today and try to imagine what they would look like without his contribution.



Remind me, which F1 team lead us down this particular path ? :smoking:


Then didn't we see the J.P.S. Mk XIV win or did we?

#35 Geoff E

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:32

Your headline Fuc*ed Up my day (as Kimi might say).


... as Vettel did say. :)

#36 Tuboscocca

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:09

"Lotus reborn!"

Gave the results away for me who was going to watch the replay a few hours later in the middle of the day MY time.

Could we please have some thought to those in other parts of the world who were asleep when you posted your headlines.

Of course I didn't read the post but it was pretty obvious what the headlines meant.

Could we have a "spoiler alert" as the headline with only the contents of the post giving it away?

And before you say "well don't read the forum until after watching the replay" I have to point out that my day normally starts with the kettle going on for the caffine fix, then the computer on, then any emails while drinking the coffee, and then TNF for a quick (or more often a slow) scan for interesting posts.

Your headline Fuc*ed Up my day (as Kimi might say).

This was posted some 8 hours after I got to a point in the day when I could spend the required 2 hours to watch.

I have friend with reasonable power at his place of work who threatened to sack anyone who mentioned the results of the previous race (normally held the night before). The threat was enough. Oh and the nightly news wasn't watched until after the replay.

Apart from the above, when I got around to reading the post all the way through, I have to say, I don't really care whether it was a Lotus or not, and that Mark finally came a cropper of not really his own fault, I really enjoyed the race!


2Bob--SORRY!!!

I fully understand..it's the same with Nascar in Europe--shown delayed on Monday night.

Never thought of the spectators on the other side of the pond..

Michael


#37 Stephen W

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:08

Indeed. Far too good looking to be any Toleman. It's a Renault.

DCN


Yet again Doug has his finger on the pulse. Toleman F1 cars were plug-ugly, mind you this 'Lotus' won't win any beuty contests!


Well, we've had "Red Bull" already...


... and Toro Rosso (aka Red Bull Lite)

:drunk:



#38 arttidesco

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:47

Does anyone know if Lotus still has a 25% stake in this reincarnation, post Singapore gate, of Renault ?

Which company number is the Enstone operation working under ? I like the idea of the team being Toleman reincarnate any of the current breed of effone cars might pass as Toleman's on looks.

Is the Lotus F1 Team still sponsored by Lotus or has the Lotus name been licensed out as it was to the team now known as Caterham ?



#39 MonzaDriver

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:23

Lotus Reborn........
that's a real question even for world leading experts like the ones in this forum.

Lotus like........... Jim Clark's Formula One............ ???

Lotus it's the name owned by James Hunt's brother ???
How comes I've never knew,
but in this case it's probably the Renault team undercover ???

No Lotus it's the name of the society of Colin Chapman's son that remise en form old F1 Lotus ???
Are They the sponsorship ???

No, like Andrew Kitson explain us it's the name of the sponsor that doesn't give a penny to this team, and retain such a good tv exposition like yesterday.

This sponsorship without any money remind me of another great mystery of F1 Brown GP that won a title without any main sponsor ???

Well you could say that in both cases marketing people inside F1 are not so skilled like they pretend to be on tv's interview.

Ciao, MonzaDriver



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#40 Youichi

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:29

Does anyone know if Lotus still has a 25% stake in this reincarnation, post Singapore gate, of Renault ?

Group Lotus(proton) never had any stake in the ex-Renault team, they had an option to buy in, but never did so, the team was and remains 100% owned by Genii.

Which company number is the Enstone operation working under ? I like the idea of the team being Toleman reincarnate any of the current breed of effone cars might pass as Toleman's on looks.

No idea - can one check Compianes house accounts online anywhere ?

Is the Lotus F1 Team still sponsored by Lotus or has the Lotus name been licensed out as it was to the team now known as Caterham ?

The Lotus F1 Team has a license to use the Lotus name in F1 for 5 years.


This sponsorship without any money remind me of another great mystery of F1 Brown GP that won a title without any main sponsor ???


There's no mystery, Ross Brawn took the money it would have cost Honda to make everyone redundant, and used it to run the team for a year.


#41 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:34

Renault have no stake (other than being a sponsor) in the ownership of the "Lotus F1 Team". They sold their final 25% to Genii Capital last year.

#42 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:43

And if reports are to be trusted, Lotus doesn't have any skin in the game either.

I put together a very brief 'state of F1' document for a large international company taking a look at getting involved as a sponsor. When summarising each team I treated them as a franchise rather than a name. So for Mercedes I don't talk about the Fangio era, I treat them as having started in 1999 and evolving from BAR to Honda to Brawn to Mercedes. The Kimi-car goes back to Toleman, Toro Rosso are a continuation of Minardi, etc.

#43 carlt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:59

Toleman, Benneton, Renault, Lotus, whatever. It's still nice to see someone other than the "usual suspects" winning - and winiing on merit and not by default.


I think Hamilton might disagree with that statement

#44 SEdward

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:37

How did the members of this august forum react when a Bentley-badged Audi won at Le Mans in 2003?

Edward

#45 hamsterace

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:48

How did the members of this august forum react when a Bentley-badged Audi won at Le Mans in 2003?

Edward


I can't speak for anyone else, but personally - in much the same way that I did yesterday when the Lotus badged Renault (nee Renault F1, nee Benetton, nee Toleman) won. I have to say that I was a bit bemused by the whole 21st century Bentley boy thing - which is in no way to denigrate the efforts of anyone involved, save possibly the marketing department...

Edited by hamsterace, 05 November 2012 - 17:51.


#46 alansart

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:57

How did the members of this august forum react when a Bentley-badged Audi won at Le Mans in 2003?

Edward


Unlike the latest lotus, at least they owned the company.


#47 PeterElleray

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:58

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally - in much the same way that I did yesterday when the Lotus badged Renault (nee Renault-Renault, nee Benetton, nee Toleman) won. Have to say I was a bit bemused by the whole 21st century Bentley boy thing - which is in no way to denigrate the efforts of anyone involved, save possibly the marketing department...


That's a bit of a shame.

The complete car (minus the engine, which of course was derived from the audi tuurbo unit), was designed in the uk, by a team of British engineers (plus one honouary Brit- Aussie, who frequents this forum), led by myself, and, as Bentley have been at pains to point out ever since, almost certainly had more British content in parts count, ip, labour expended, cost, or any other way you care to skin it, than the German content of anything which has originated in Ingolstad, the French content of anything originating in Paris, or the Japanese content of anything originating in Cologne, (which when last checked was still in Germany) and called a Toyota.


Cheers

Peter

#48 arttidesco

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:59

No idea - can one check Compianes house accounts online anywhere ?

There company number can indeed be checked on line Lotus F1 Team Limited number is 01806337 which was incorporated on 05 04 1984 but it does not say what the original name was.

The Lotus F1 Team has a license to use the Lotus name in F1 for 5 years.

This is a complete turn around from Colin Chapman selling the naming rights for the Lotus 76/77/78 and 79 models to a tobacco company :drunk:

There's no mystery, Ross Brawn took the money it would have cost Honda to make everyone redundant, and used it to run the team for a year.

I always wondered where the real money came from to keep the team going for a year :up:





#49 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:12

That's a bit of a shame.

The complete car (minus the engine, which of course was derived from the audi tuurbo unit), was designed in the uk, by a team of British engineers (plus one honouary Brit- Aussie, who frequents this forum), led by myself, and, as Bentley have been at pains to point out ever since, almost certainly had more British content in parts count, ip, labour expended, cost, or any other way you care to skin it, than the German content of anything which has originated in Ingolstad, the French content of anything originating in Paris, or the Japanese content of anything originating in Cologne, (which when last checked was still in Germany) and called a Toyota.


Cheers

Peter


But didn't it start out as the Audi-with-roof from 1999? Which was previously Toyota TOM'S Europe/UK, etc?

#50 arttidesco

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:16

How did the members of this august forum react when a Bentley-badged Audi won at Le Mans in 2003?

Edward


I was not following the sport particularly closely at the time, but have learned since that there was a great deal of British content in the car, my casual perception was that this was primarily a branding exercise by the Volkswagen Group.

My memory is of the involvement of Joest Racing, rather than Racing Technology Norfolk who obviously deserve a great deal of the credit for the Bentley Speed 8 which I incorrectly perceived at the time as simply an Audi R8 with a roof.