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#1 sensible

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:56

It amazes me the bitterness directed towards Vettel today. People who should no better who are just factually plain wrong. It really does show up the different perspectives on things like a drive - not just from the back but from the pitlane - based on who did it.

Error One: He was very lucky with the safety cars. No, he wasnt. He got no advantage from the first safety car. He was right behind riccardio anyway when it came out. Sure it brought the leaders closer to him, but that advantage was immediately wiped out when he had to go into the pits again. As to the second safety car - yes that got him behind button and he probably wouldnt have had a chance to attack him had it not come out, but it certainly wasnt a gime and took a great move. So he lost several places through the first safety car and gained the chane to fight for one extra place through the second.

Error Two: All the cars just dropped out ahead of him. Again not true. The big crashes (rosberg, webber/perez/ect, massa) all happened BEHIND HIM!. Only Hamilton dropped out ahead of him. Everyone else he passed on the track or through strategy and speed.

So he "lucked" into one or at a stretch two places. Given where he started - in the pits with probably the worst pitlane of the year, his drive today was sensational. Just too many haters hate having to admit it or admit how wrong they were about how good a driver he is.

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#2 fnz

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 17:59

. He was right behind riccardio anyway when it came out. Sure it brought the leaders closer to him, but that advantage was immediately wiped out when he had to go into the pits again.

to be fair it was (at least) partially his own fault, ramming the DRS cone


#3 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:01

Phenomenal.

#4 bmardini

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:01

Erm,

He's allowed to get lucky due to the SC. It doesn't diminish from his drive. His pass on Button was sensational.

He looked ragged and messy at times, especially in the first dozen laps.

And he did gain from people falling behind - Hamilton retired, Massa is Massa, Webber had a shite race, Button threw it away. Lots of retirements, I think I counted 10 overall.

It doesn't matter, he did very well and it will be remembered as a terrific recovery drive.

#5 bsrf1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:02

It was very good drive today except for the first stint where he needed visit pits for front wing change. He was really in hurry in that stint. His engineer must have mellowed him down. This is where Kimi/Alonso do lot better. They would not take this kind of help from pitwall. I think he was really lucky with Massa. It could have been difficult to pass the ferrari, as they are the best in straight line speed.

Edited by bsrf1, 04 November 2012 - 18:05.


#6 apoka

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:03

Here is a list of overtakes and some discussion on the effect of the safety cars:

http://f1stats.blog....rack-overtakes/

#7 RedBaron

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:04

Amazing race result for Vettel. I was expecting Alonso to leave this race in the lead of the championship. The race gave Vettel some favours, but you need that for a good result. That doesn't diminish a great race from him, I thought he was losing his cool in the first 10-15 laps.

#8 onewingedangel

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:04

Vettel got extremely lucky with the safety cars, but it's the sort of luck everyone gets at somepoint or the other. He gained today, but has lost out previously.

The safety car never helps the leaders, so on average, he probably loses more than he gains through safety cars.

#9 lambylamby

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:07

It amazes me the bitterness directed towards Vettel today. People who should no better who are just factually plain wrong. It really does show up the different perspectives on things like a drive - not just from the back but from the pitlane - based on who did it.

Error One: He was very lucky with the safety cars. No, he wasnt. He got no advantage from the first safety car. He was right behind riccardio anyway when it came out. Sure it brought the leaders closer to him, but that advantage was immediately wiped out when he had to go into the pits again. As to the second safety car - yes that got him behind button and he probably wouldnt have had a chance to attack him had it not come out, but it certainly wasnt a gime and took a great move. So he lost several places through the first safety car and gained the chane to fight for one extra place through the second.

Error Two: All the cars just dropped out ahead of him. Again not true. The big crashes (rosberg, webber/perez/ect, massa) all happened BEHIND HIM!. Only Hamilton dropped out ahead of him. Everyone else he passed on the track or through strategy and speed.

So he "lucked" into one or at a stretch two places. Given where he started - in the pits with probably the worst pitlane of the year, his drive today was sensational. Just too many haters hate having to admit it or admit how wrong they were about how good a driver he is.


Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

#10 sensible

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:07

to be fair it was (at least) partially his own fault, ramming the DRS cone

True he made a couple of mistakes - not saying his race was perfect but he had to go full attack and he did very well. All Im sayinbg is he deserved every bit of what he got and it was in no way "lucky" (except hamiltons demise)

#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:09

Sorry OP, but you sound like an apologist rather than somebody trying to be reasonable. Just as bad as those getting overly worked up about how terrible Vettel was.

He definitely got lucky with the SC's and there were definitely many people who got in incidents in front of him that he got to capitalize on as well.

I dont think Vettel did anything especially noteworthy, really. Not to say he was bad or anything.

#12 fnz

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:12

noteworthy: the overtake on jenson was premier class!

#13 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:12

He definitely got lucky with the SC's and there were definitely many people who got in incidents in front of him that he got to capitalize on as well.

I dont think Vettel did anything especially noteworthy, really. Not to say he was bad or anything.


This, although he was clumsy with Senna and behind the SC.

I can't comment on other but I wasn't being vocal about his performance because I was bitter at him but because I didn't and still don't feel his drive is worth much praise at all, never mind some of the outrageous praise that others were heaping on him. It's like they just looked at starting position, finishing position and ignored everything that happened in between.

Edit: His pass on Button was great but Button didn't put up much of a fight on that lap. The fact we're even talking about the pass says enough, Alonso pulls those things week in, week out and it barely gets noticed.

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 04 November 2012 - 18:13.


#14 Kvothe

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:14

Sorry OP, but you sound like an apologist rather than somebody trying to be reasonable. Just as bad as those getting overly worked up about how terrible Vettel was.

He definitely got lucky with the SC's and there were definitely many people who got in incidents in front of him that he got to capitalize on as well.

I dont think Vettel did anything especially noteworthy, really. Not to say he was bad or anything.


I agree, it wasn't as bad as some have portrayed but it wasn't epic either since many of his genuine overtakes were on the backmarkers, TR drivers who moved out of the way or drivers who had problems such as Grosjean with a fuel pressure problem and his pass on Button was made with much fresher option tyres v older primes so nothing special.

Anyway its the results that count, and I'm sure he's delighted with his third place.

Edited by Kvothe, 04 November 2012 - 18:14.


#15 Massa

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:14

Im sorry, but Vettel is on podium only because of the two SC. The second one especially. It was a big gift. IMHO, he shows nothing in his drive today, that deserve a podium. With fresher tyres, he was not faster than Alonso, than Raikkonen, he overtakes Button late in the race...

I dont understand why some said Massa had a bad race today, and then some say Vettel was good today. He even crash his car behind the safety car!

Today he was shit, he is an awesome driver but today he was shit. IMHO, his best race this year was at Spa. He was driving like a triple WDC.

#16 SamH123

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:15

The Ferrari's were excellent on the straight so Ferrari must have been gutted when Massa wasn't facing the correct direction to hold Vettel up



#17 RealRacing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:16

This was as good a drive by Vettel as Valencia was by Alonso.

#18 Konsta

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:18

Im sorry, but Vettel is on podium only because of the two SC. The second one especially. It was a big gift. IMHO, he shows nothing in his drive today, that deserve a podium. With fresher tyres, he was not faster than Alonso, than Raikkonen, he overtakes Button late in the race...

I dont understand why some said Massa had a bad race today, and then some say Vettel was good today. He even crash his car behind the safety car!

Today he was shit, he is an awesome driver but today he was shit. IMHO, his best race this year was at Spa. He was driving like a triple WDC.


I guess you did not watch the race then? Felipe´s only function in the race was to block the Red Bulls and especially Seb. He failed more miserably than pretty much anyone has ever. Today Massa was just...Massa. He seems to be sooo fragile that whenever things don´t go his way, he shatters. Ramming Mark and then spinning on his own speaks volumes.

#19 Tardis40

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:18

Vettel did a good job but the planets and moons were also aligned in his favor. In a normal race he's lucky to score a point or two.


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#20 Konsta

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:20

Vettel did a good job but the planets and moons were also aligned in his favor. In a normal race he's lucky to score a point or two.

Like Freddie in Valencia? Why is it so that only FA gets to be simultaneously lucky and deserving?

#21 RealRacing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:20

This was as good a drive by Vettel as Valencia was by Alonso.

#22 RealRacing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:21

Like Freddie in Valencia? Why is it so that only FA gets to be simultaneously lucky and deserving?


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#23 Sakae

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:21

For me noteworthy was how charged through back of the field twice, and still ended up on the podium. It was error ridden weekend by the team, and Seb has done a few goofy things as well, but that's OK for once in a while. Unusual situation requires unusual solutions. I am sure he will now shower, and in post-race debriefing he might go over LL for the next race.

It was the race of a champion who doesn't give up. Alonso has a fight on his hands, and it will not be easy, Newey or not Newey.

Edited by Sakae, 04 November 2012 - 18:23.


#24 Kelateboy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:24

I agree, it wasn't as bad as some have portrayed but it wasn't epic either since many of his genuine overtakes were on the backmarkers, TR drivers who moved out of the way or drivers who had problems such as Grosjean with a fuel pressure problem and his pass on Button was made with much fresher option tyres v older primes so nothing special.

Anyway its the results that count, and I'm sure he's delighted with his third place.

Of course he is delighted with 3rd place - he only lost 3pts to Alonso in this race despite starting dead last.
Notice how gloomy Alonso was before and during the podium ceremony. It is a lost opportunity for him.

#25 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:24

I guess this is something some people are just never going to agree on but really to compare Alonso at Valencia to Vettel today is laughable and shows a complete lack of impartiality from anyone making such ridiculous comparisons.

#26 Jamiednm

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:24


Seeing as he was the only driver with a full race setup, he probably achieved what he should have done.

#27 apoka

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:24

I agree, it wasn't as bad as some have portrayed but it wasn't epic either since many of his genuine overtakes were on the backmarkers, TR drivers who moved out of the way or drivers who had problems such as Grosjean with a fuel pressure problem and his pass on Button was made with much fresher option tyres v older primes so nothing special.

However, McLaren was probably the faster car today and it's still not a track, which allows easy overtaking. 21 overtakes including Button, Di Resta, Grosjean (with problems but not that slow), Schumacher. Of course, he was quite a bit faster than the cars he overtook, but that's the case most of the time. He also could only jump quite a lot of drivers with his second pitstop, because his lap times were very good.

Spa this year was probably even better, but still a great performance I would say.


#28 Massa

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:25

I guess you did not watch the race then? Felipe´s only function in the race was to block the Red Bulls and especially Seb. He failed more miserably than pretty much anyone has ever. Today Massa was just...Massa. He seems to be sooo fragile that whenever things don´t go his way, he shatters. Ramming Mark and then spinning on his own speaks volumes.



You didn't watch the race. Massa's tyres was dead. One lap before the clash with Webber, he said to the team that he want to pit, because his tyres was gone. He had no grip. Smedley told him to stay on the track. One lap after, Webber crash Massa, and Massa to avoid Webber had to take the curbs hard and then he spun because his tyres was dead.

Once again this weekend, he hasn't got the same car ( with all updates ) than Alonso, but without his mistakes in S2 during the Q, he was in front of Alonso.

He couldn't block Webber or Vettel with the soft tyres, it was impossible. So watch the race instead of talking like that.

When Massa is shit i'm the first to notice that, but today he was not bad, not like Vettel.

#29 F1ultimate

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:26

Sometimes it pays off big time to start from the back. Button did it in Canada last year and won despite multiple pit stops, Hamilton did it in Monaco 2008 and Webber achieved something similar a while ago where he started from the far back but yet finished in high points. It is truly odd how misfortunes can work in your favours. Or is it simply because fresher tyres are so much more advantageous???

#30 Realyn

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:26

Seeing as he was the only driver with a full race setup, he probably achieved what he should have done.

So the HRT's are running a full out Qualy setup to battle out the places 23-24. You got it man.

#31 sharo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:26

Like Freddie in Valencia? Why is it so that only FA gets to be simultaneously lucky and deserving?

You are asking difficult questions :)
This one is like the other, whose answer is "42".

To say a guy, who was penalized heavily and deprived of his 3-rd start position and had to go on maximum attack with all the risks involved, is lucky, is something I can't find a suitable English word for.

#32 Konsta

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:27

I guess this is something some people are just never going to agree on but really to compare Alonso at Valencia to Vettel today is laughable and shows a complete lack of impartiality from anyone making such ridiculous comparisons.

Please do elaborate. I would´ve found it unreal had there not been raggedness when charging through the field.

#33 Massa

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:28

Like Freddie in Valencia? Why is it so that only FA gets to be simultaneously lucky and deserving?


Alonso was lucky at Valencia but he didn't crash, he overtake all of his competitor on track, not like Vettel. Vettel crash behind a SC, with Senna, he spent many laps behind the slow Button with fresher and softer tyres. He was bad TODAY.

Once again, he is a great driver, but if you compare Spa 2012 with his drive today it's night and day.

#34 Jon83

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:28

It was a good drive by him but he did carry some luck. Luckily for him, some of the cars he needed to pass just moved aside (Toro Rosso) without even pretending to put up a fight.

#35 Konsta

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:29

You didn't watch the race. Massa's tyres was dead. One lap before the clash with Webber, he said to the team that he want to pit, because his tyres was gone. He had no grip. Smedley told him to stay on the track. One lap after, Webber crash Massa, and Massa to avoid Webber had to take the curbs hard and then he spun because his tyres was dead.

Once again this weekend, he hasn't got the same car ( with all updates ) than Alonso, but without his mistakes in S2 during the Q, he was in front of Alonso.

He couldn't block Webber or Vettel with the soft tyres, it was impossible. So watch the race instead of talking like that.

When Massa is shit i'm the first to notice that, but today he was not bad, not like Vettel.

Well, SV started 24th and ended up 3rd whereas Flippy started 9th and ended up 7th. For sure it was Seb who was shit... :confused:

#36 RealRacing

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:29

Please do elaborate. I would´ve found it unreal had there not been raggedness when charging through the field.


Would love to hear some reasoning as well...

#37 Skinnyguy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:29

It´s incredible the ammount of people failing to grasp the effect of the safety cars in his race. I read both helped him... that´s incredibly missinformed. First safety car hurted him, and second one gave him ONE place.

Comming here to say he was lucky after what happened yesterday in the first place is just outrageous.

#38 SpaMaster

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:29

Sorry OP, but you sound like an apologist rather than somebody trying to be reasonable. Just as bad as those getting overly worked up about how terrible Vettel was.

He definitely got lucky with the SC's and there were definitely many people who got in incidents in front of him that he got to capitalize on as well.

I dont think Vettel did anything especially noteworthy, really. Not to say he was bad or anything.

First SC did not help him at all. It eventually resulted in him pitting and that was the worst time to pit. He may be got one place, that of Button, but even that was made possible by a "brave move" as Button himself calls it.

#39 Ricardo F1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:32

He drove a decent race but he was phenomenally lucky. Ridiculous in fact, of course the safety cars helped him, they bunched the field. The first safety car was irrelevant to everyone because nobody pitted. His pass on Button was good but only because Button was caught napping and gave it up. Jenson at his finest there.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 04 November 2012 - 18:33.


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#40 jk

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:35

Without any SC or crashes, Seb probably ends up 4th. His pace was great and he did not need a big advantage to pass.
So yes, the SC gave him a tough shot at one extra place. Lucky bugger he is.

#41 sharo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:39

He drove a decent race but he was phenomenally lucky. Ridiculous in fact, of course the safety cars helped him, they bunched the field. The first safety car was irrelevant to everyone because nobody pitted. His pass on Button was good but only because Button was caught napping and gave it up. Jenson at his finest there.

Are you sure? Or we have watched different races?

#42 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:43

Please do elaborate. I would´ve found it unreal had there not been raggedness when charging through the field.


Would love to hear some reasoning as well...


I'm happy for us to have differing opinions so don't really feel any need to justify mine. We're entitled to watch the races and form our own opinions on things, if we all agreed what would be the point? Very briefly I'll explain my point of view.

1) In Valencia Alonso didn't have a car advantage over most of the field. The relative performance of all the cars was much closer making passing much more difficult. He also had to pass serious top 10 contenders and pulled a pass around the outside of turn 2 at Valencia on the guy running in P2.

2) In Valencia Alonso was flawless, he didn't damage his front wing twice.

3) In Valencia Alonso beat the cars around him and charged through the field on the same strategy. In Abu Dhabi Vettel damaged his front wing (twice) when he was rather scrappy battling back markers, as a result he ended up pitting under SC and ending up on an alternate strategy which meant he didn't have to pass the cars in front. He simply had to clear the very slow cars which was relatively easy and then wait for the more difficult cars to pit.

4) Vettel gained about 30 seconds through safety cars and most of the cars he fought were much slower than him

5) Vettel made a botch of passing both Senna and Grosjean the first time.

6) Vettel failed to pass Button for many laps even with a top speed and tyre advantage.

It wasn't a horrible drive from Vettel but it certainly wasn't epic.

I'm happy for you to disagree, you are entitled to your own opinion on things.

All the best and I'm moving on to look ahead to Austin now. :)

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 04 November 2012 - 18:51.


#43 P123

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:45

He drove a fine race, except for a clumsy attempt to pass Senna and a suspect incident under the SC. The second SC was fortuitous in that it meant he didn't have to use his tyres closing up 20s, he could use them to attack.

#44 Jon83

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:46

I'm happy for us to have differing opinions so don't really feel any need to justify mine. We're entitled to watch the races and form our own opinions on things, if we all agreed what would be the point? Very briefly I'll explain my point of view.

1) In Valencia Alonso didn't have a car advantage over most of the field. The relative performance of all the cars was much closer making passing much more difficult. He also had to pass serious top 10 contenders and pulled a pass around the outside of turn 2 at Valencia on the guy running in P2.

2) In Valencia Alonso was flawless, he didn't damage his front wing twice.

3) In Valencia Alonso beat the cars around him and charged through the field on the same strategy. In Abu Dhabi Vettel damaged his front wing (twice) when he was rather scrappy battling back markers, as a result he ended up pitting under SC and ending up on an alternate strategy which meant he didn't have to pass the cars in front. He simply had to clear the very slow cars which was relatively easy and then wait for the more difficult cars to pass.

4) Vettel gained about 30 seconds through safety cars and most of the cars he fought were much slower than him

5) Vettel made a botch of passing both Senna and Grosjean the first time.

6) Vettel failed to pass Button for many laps even with a top speed and tyre advantage.

It wasn't a horrible drive from Vettel but it certainly wasn't epic.

I'm happy for you to disagree, you are entitled to your own opinion on things.

All the best and I'm moving on to look ahead to Austin now. :)


Could add in that Vettel was given a free pass on Vergne.


#45 shonguiz

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:47

Did he have luck ? Yep
Did Alonso have luck by Vettel thrown back at the back du to a technical problem ? Yep
Draw

#46 Massa

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:48

Well, SV started 24th and ended up 3rd whereas Flippy started 9th and ended up 7th. For sure it was Seb who was shit... :confused:



Ok ok, so you didn't watch the race at all.

#47 Ricardo F1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:49

Could add in that Vettel was given a free pass on Vergne.

That was almost hysterical.


#48 Ricardo F1

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:50

Are you sure? Or we have watched different races?

Of relevance should I put? If it had been a standard safety car pit scenario where everyone dived it and got fresh rubber the outcome would probably have been different.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 04 November 2012 - 18:50.


#49 Skinnyguy

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:53

1) In Valencia Alonso didn't have a car advantage over most of the field. The relative performance of all the cars was much closer making passing much more difficult. He also had to pass serious top 10 contenders and pulled a pass around the outside of turn 2 at Valencia on the guy running in P2.


McLaren was the faster car this weekend easily. There was nothing between RB, Lotus and Ferrari. Add a highly competitive Williams.
RB didn´t have any car advantage today, except maybe in la-la-land.

2) In Valencia Alonso was flawless, he didn't damage his front wing twice.


True. But you must admit only second incident was Vettel´s fault.

3) In Valencia Alonso beat the cars around him and charged through the field on the same strategy. In Abu Dhabi Vettel damaged his front wing (twice) when he was rather scrappy battling back markers, as a result he ended up pitting under SC and ending up on an alternate strategy which meant he didn't have to pass the cars in front. He simply had to clear the very slow cars which was relatively easy and then wait for the more difficult cars to pass.


Utter rubbish. Doesn´t need any explanation if you have any interest in being fair, but just in case, he had to pass twice as traffic as a result of first SC. Including the race winning car in fresh soft rubber with a guy inside racing his soul out to keep him behind. (Hope the Renault conspiracist now realised how dumb they look)

4) Vettel gained about 30 seconds through safety cars and most of the cars he fought were much slower than him


Vettel won one place as a result of the second SC. Even if he hadn´t passed Button, it would have been a great drive. The second is always true when you come from the back :rolleyes:

5) Vettel made a botch of passing both Senna and Grosjean the first time.


This incident it´s not his fault at all. He had right to a car´s width on apex and they turned on him.


6) Vettel failed to pass Button for many laps even with a top speed and tyre advantage.


Vettel ended up doing the pass of the day on Button :wave:

Edited by Skinnyguy, 04 November 2012 - 18:54.


#50 zottzell

zottzell
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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:55

Could add in that Vettel was given a free pass on Vergne.


Yes that if anything proves that Red Bull's basically a four car team, simply appalling.
However that doesn't take away that Vettel drove a really good race, sure he got massive help from the two safety car's but he still had to do a lot of passing but then again the passes of these days is nothing like it was before the DRS systems.