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#251 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:44

Vettel was lucky in that a lot of the cars in front disappeared and the timing of the safety cars benefited him.


What cars were those? Hamilton and....? Webber retired from behind, who else? Sure there were retirements but which of those were going to stay ahead of Vettel? Without the SCs, who was going to beat Vettel for 4th (after Hamilton retired)? Vettel wasn't held behind anyone except Webber (ridiculous BTW that RBR didn't employ team orders and let Vettel past and let them go further, poor management. I feel they're feeling pressure nowadays in those kinds of situations, which is Webber's fault, so I'm not feeling bad he got stuck back there.) before Button.

The difference is that Hamilton was much, much faster than anyone else during that race. Was Vettel that much faster than Webber? Didn't look like it.


Yes he was. In a car that was compromised ultimate-pace wise.

You said Alonso's pass on Webber wasn't really a pass because he had ridiculous top speed. Now can we from that statement deduce that none of Vettel's overtakes were actually overtakes due to his ridiculous top speed.

Also, you're crediting Vettel for his overtake on Button but you're dismissing Alonso's overtake on Maldonado. Button was on worn, slower tyres and suffering with traction when Vettel overtook him.

I see you throw around the words double standards quite a bit in the forums. Wouldn't you say the above is a double standard?

As for Alonso underperforming, I think you should take a look at the amount of time he lost to tyre heating issues which he confirmed after the race. Without accounting for the pit stop he lost about 8 seconds to those ahead of him just from the safety cars. That's plenty time dude but to answer your question Alonso had a good day at the office. Nothing extraordinary.


I don't think I said Alonso on Webber wasn't an overtake, I said Alonso on Button wasn't. Sorry if I did.

From what I could see Maldonado was suffering far worse than Button at that point, in addition the move started from his mistake which gave Alonso the run he wasn't getting otherwise on that lap at least, also Alonso was ahead into the braking zone and Maldonado didn't and couldn't fight at that point at all. It was an okay move, but nothing compared to Vettel on Button. Just like Alonso drove an okay race, but nothing on Vettel.

Edited by choyothe, 05 November 2012 - 10:45.


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#252 dau

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:50

"Pitlane to third" will be repeated until sick to justify Vettel is not bad through traffic I guess, but he screwed up twice in the race, plus all the moving aside and factors that I'm not repeating again. It wasn't even close to say Japan 2005, even though he gained more places, but oh well, each to their own.

Suzuka 2005 will always be one of Kimi's greatest races, but let's not pretend that he wasn't profiting from lucky circumstances as well. Like for example all the other fast cars also qualifying badly, with the only exception, Fisico, being held up by RSC and a SC phase right in the beginning of the race. Or the three positions he was gifted after Sato and Barrichello got it wrong and Montoya was nudged into the wall by Villeneuve. Then we had the FIA screwing up over whether Alonso had to give back a place to Klien or not, costing Alonso about 4s in the process - Raikkonen rejoined 2s in front of Alonso after both their stops. Oh, talking about screwing up, Kimi actually lost some places by going off in the first lap as well, but as he already got past the HRTs of yesteryear, he was still P12, 10s behind the leader when the SC came in.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve the win or that it wasn't a brilliant performance. But you can't do something like that without a bit of luck and both Kimi back then and Vettel yesterday had lots of that. Can we at least agree on that?

Btw, not trying to get this offtopic, it's just some perspective on Kimi's "17th to first" that Vettel's race was compared to by some.

Edited by dau, 05 November 2012 - 10:54.


#253 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:50

That's not the point. Due to a technicality he was allowed to change parts and setup despite being penalised.

What Red Bull did was to Vettel's benefit and it made it easier for him to overtake when in normal circumstances it would have been difficult. See Webber. The changes went some way to negating the effect of the penalty but that is not Red Bull's fault.


It's not a technicality, no more than a guy retiring with I don't know, radiator damage getting a free gearbox change. Its part of the regulations. And it's not the first time in history that a team has chosen to break park ferme and start from the pitlane. It wasn't even the first time this season, Vergne did it in China but nobody gave a damn cause it was Vergne. Hell Alguersuari went full wet setup in Canada 2011 and started from the pitlane and nobody was outraged at the abuse of a technicality. So excuse me if I take all this outrage with a pinch of salt.


#254 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:57

Suzuka 2005 will always be one of Kimi's greatest races, but let's not pretend that he wasn't profiting from lucky circumstances as well. Like for example all the other fast cars also qualifying badly, with the only exception, Fisico, being held up by RSC and a SC phase right in the beginning of the race. Or the three positions he was gifted after Sato and Barrichello got it wrong and Montoya was nudged into the wall by Villeneuve. Then we had the FIA screwing up over whether Alonso had to give back a place to Klien or not, costing Alonso about 4s in the process - Raikkonen rejoined 2s in front of Alonso after both their stops. Oh, talking about screwing up, Kimi actually lost some places by going off in the first lap as well, but as he already got past the HRTs of yesteryear, he was still P12, 10s behind the leader when the SC came in.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve the win or that it wasn't a brilliant performance. But you can't do something like that without a bit of luck and both Kimi back then and Vettel yesterday had lots of that. Can we at least agree on that?


Exactly. I consider that to be the best drive of the past decade at least, and Kimi is my tied favourite driver, yet it was clear that not taking into consideration his bad luck in qualifying, he had circumstances going on for and in the race. Some was luck some was other driver making mistakes and mental errors, yet you can't expect someone to go from 17th to win without that. Or going from the pitlane to 3rd. Or from 11th to win. Not even if there was quadruple DRS.

#255 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:06

And how did you measure it? SV was behind Webber at half time despite starting 22places behind him. Now you can use the "Webber stuck in traffic"-argument, but how can you then say how fast he was exactly, that it would lead you to your assumption?


I was glancing at their sector times, when Vettel was in the free air. Could be wrong but he didn't seem that fast compared to Webber.


#256 Ferrari2183

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:10

What cars were those? Hamilton and....? Webber retired from behind, who else? Sure there were retirements but which of those were going to stay ahead of Vettel? Without the SCs, who was going to beat Vettel for 4th (after Hamilton retired)? Vettel wasn't held behind anyone except Webber (ridiculous BTW that RBR didn't employ team orders and let Vettel past and let them go further, poor management. I feel they're feeling pressure nowadays in those kinds of situations, which is Webber's fault, so I'm not feeling bad he got stuck back there.) before Button.

Let us see... In order of appearance. First lap - Rosberg, Hulkenberg, Di Resta and Grosjean. They quite possibly wouldn't have finished ahead of Vettel but they are notoriously difficult to overtake. Next was Hamilton's retirement after the safety car. Without even thinking about it I have given you examples of cars he didn't have to race with due to incidents.

I don't think I said Alonso on Webber wasn't an overtake, I said Alonso on Button wasn't. Sorry if I did.

This is what you said:

2) he passed Webber on the straight with superior speed, was already ahead into the braking zone, no skill involved (although I agree Webber was very weak there)


From what I could see Maldonado was suffering far worse than Button at that point, in addition the move started from his mistake which gave Alonso the run he wasn't getting otherwise on that lap at least, also Alonso was ahead into the braking zone and Maldonado didn't and couldn't fight at that point at all. It was an okay move, but nothing compared to Vettel on Button. Just like Alonso drove an okay race, but nothing on Vettel.

Think about it this way, Alonso and Maldonado's tyres were of similar age. Vettel's tyres were quite a bit fresher than Button's. Think of it in relative terms.

#257 fatd

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:11

I was glancing at their sector times, when Vettel was in the free air. Could be wrong but he didn't seem that fast compared to Webber.


Do you compare both drivers' times in clean air? Because with their respective setup, Webber is supposed to be faster in clean air, isn't he? CMIIW, I'm not good with this stuff actually.

#258 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:14

I was glancing at their sector times, when Vettel was in the free air. Could be wrong but he didn't seem that fast compared to Webber.


He was only slower in the first 2-3 laps after both the start and the first SC-period. Except for that SV was even slightly faster with harder tyres and a damaged FW and later on 0,5sec faster per lap at worst.

#259 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:16

Let us see... In order of appearance. First lap - Rosberg, Hulkenberg, Di Resta and Grosjean. They quite possibly wouldn't have finished ahead of Vettel but they are notoriously difficult to overtake. Next was Hamilton's retirement after the safety car. Without even thinking about it I have given you examples of cars he didn't have to race with due to incidents.


For the 1000th time. Vettel had to overtake Grosjean twice. Why is he always listed as an example of a "gifted position"? He also had to overtake di Resta.

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#260 Gareth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:17

As a drive it reminded me of Alonso at Valencia earlier this year: yes, there was some fortune involved, but the guy had to drive very well to be able to make the most of that fortune.

Also reminded me of GB 2010 - a drive from the back that ultimately won him the WDC. I suspect this one may be seen in that light too, come the end of the season.

I felt sorry for him with the pile on from the various drivers and team bosses. All seemed a bit bitter to me.

#261 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:18

He was only slower in the first 2-3 laps after both the start and the first SC-period. Except for that SV was even slightly faster with harder tyres and a damaged FW and later on 0,5sec faster per lap at worst.


They were of course running with different tires during the first part of the race, I forgot that and that would of course affect any comparison. Did they run on the same tires at anytime during the race?

#262 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:21

They were of course running with different tires during the first part of the race, I forgot that and that would of course affect any comparison. Did they run on the same tires at anytime during the race?


nope

from lap 18 (SC in) till lap 30 Vettel (on options) was on average half a second a lap faster than Webber (on primes) (excluding the 2 laps where Webber had incidents when the gap was larger). The final 2-3 laps before Webber was called in he was closer to 2 seconds a lap faster. After Webber pitted when they were both on options Webber was in the Grosjean train so pointless to compare.

#263 Cesc

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:21

40 seconds relative to whom? Hamilton/Kimi? How much did the relevant cars around him win? I just opened a discussion on this a few posts up with gaps before / after the first SC.


Taking a look at the times (f1matrix.it), Vettel saw his difference reduced by 12 seconds (versus the leader) in the first SC (from 24.89 in the last lap before the SC to 12.87 the last lap of the SC).
The difference got reduced by 22 seconds more (24.4 to 2.1), so overall, the difference got reduced by about 34 seconds versus the leader in the two Sc periods, plus the tire advantage in the second one.

This are real numbers.

In the same way, Alonso was benefited as well with the SC versus Raikkonen (from 9s to 1s), and ultimately, he was very close to him and close to win (if he had a chance for DRS, he would have had a clear oportunity).

So I don´t see why denying the obvious. Vettel was lucky with the events that ocurred during the race.

On the other hand, we can argue about how brilliant his driving was. I had little doubts that he would recover a lot of positions given his quality and car, clearly for a top 8 result (or event top 5), but the incidents helped him to get the P3.

#264 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:21

They were of course running with different tires during the first part of the race, I forgot that and that would of course affect any comparison. Did they run on the same tires at anytime during the race?


Yes after Vettels first stop and before Webbers first stop. But of course SV´s tyres were fresher at that time.



#265 H2H

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:24

Exactly. I consider that to be the best drive of the past decade at least, and Kimi is my tied favourite driver, yet it was clear that not taking into consideration his bad luck in qualifying, he had circumstances going on for and in the race. Some was luck some was other driver making mistakes and mental errors, yet you can't expect someone to go from 17th to win without that. Or going from the pitlane to 3rd. Or from 11th to win. Not even if there was quadruple DRS.


Well the RBR loving Gazzetta dello Sport who supports Vettel for the WDC has dug around in the stats and Seb has gained more places then everybody else in the last 20 years. I would love to top number of overtakes in the last 20 years, the last race should not stack up too badly.

Just facts, but for some they are clearly always in the way. :lol:


#266 Ferrari2183

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:25

It's not a technicality, no more than a guy retiring with I don't know, radiator damage getting a free gearbox change. Its part of the regulations. And it's not the first time in history that a team has chosen to break park ferme and start from the pitlane. It wasn't even the first time this season, Vergne did it in China but nobody gave a damn cause it was Vergne. Hell Alguersuari went full wet setup in Canada 2011 and started from the pitlane and nobody was outraged at the abuse of a technicality. So excuse me if I take all this outrage with a pinch of salt.

Yes, a free gearbox for the "next" event due to a mechanical failure or crash. It is a far cry from being allowed to alter your setup, and change components that would otherwise attract a penalty, due to a technical infringement. As someone already pointed out in the other thread Red Bull could have taken a 9th engine had they had one available without penalty while others are locked into what they have.

As for you not outraged by the matter. Fair enough, but it usually takes one of the front runners to bring these type of things to the attention of the general public.

#267 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:25

Taking a look at the times (f1matrix.it), Vettel saw his difference reduced by 12 seconds (versus the leader) in the first SC (from 24.89 in the last lap before the SC to 12.87 the last lap of the SC). ...


But as he had to re-overtake all the backmarkers again, he had the same gap to the leaders 2-3 laps after the SC as he had before the SC-period (and was still in a lower positon than before the SC)

So he didn´t really gain any time by the first SC-period.


#268 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:27

Yes after Vettels first stop and before Webbers first stop. But of course SV´s tyres were fresher at that time.


Ok, so difficult to compare. It is amazing though that Vettel managed a podium after being outqualified, banging the car, brake problems, little practice running, sent to the back of the grid, crashing into a sign and losing parts of the car.

Whether the result was down to luck or pace is more of an open question. :p

#269 Konsta

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:30

Ok, so difficult to compare. It is amazing though that Vettel managed a podium after being outqualified, banging the car, brake problems, little practice running, sent to the back of the grid, crashing into a sign and losing parts of the car.

Whether the result was down to luck or pace is more of an open question. :p

I´d say that the result was down to luck, pace, skills and above all determination. None of that takes anything away from Fernando or from Kimi.

#270 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:31

Ok, so difficult to compare. It is amazing though that Vettel managed a podium after being outqualified, banging the car, brake problems, little practice running, sent to the back of the grid, crashing into a sign and losing parts of the car.


Not really a relevant indicator of race pace these days - even between teammates (see Grosjean/Raikkonen but also VET/WEB...Spa would probably be the most famous example...).

Edited by LiJu914, 05 November 2012 - 11:31.


#271 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:32

I´d say that the result was down to luck, pace, skills and above all determination. None of that takes anything away from Fernando or from Kimi.


Yep. I'd go along with that.

#272 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:34

Not really a relevant indicator of race pace these days


It often is between Webber and Vettel. If they are very close or Webber outqualifies Seb then their race pace is very often similar as well while if Vettel dominates in qualifying then Mark is left in the dust in the race as well.




#273 Ferrari2183

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:38

For the 1000th time. Vettel had to overtake Grosjean twice. Why is he always listed as an example of a "gifted position"? He also had to overtake di Resta.

You just don't get it do you... Vettel would not have been in a position to overtake them had they not been taken out at the start. Also his overtakes on them were after the first safety car. Him having to overtake Grosjean twice just goes to show how difficult it would have otherwise been because he had to resort to overtaking off track initially.

Vettel showed good pace but everything that could have assisted him happened. No shame in admitting that.

#274 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:39

The difference is that Hamilton was much, much faster than anyone else during that race. Was Vettel that much faster than Webber? Didn't look like it.

On face of it it could be that (a) Vettel really doesn't has a superior car over anyone else; he merely drives better than most, and (b) at McLaren, a better car to have in this race, Button compared to Hamilton, simply put, badly underperformed. Vettel has committed some errors in this race, but at the end he has overcomed all adversity and pressure as evident by race result.

Edited by Sakae, 05 November 2012 - 11:41.


#275 engel

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:42

Yes, a free gearbox for the "next" event due to a mechanical failure or crash. It is a far cry from being allowed to alter your setup, and change components that would otherwise attract a penalty, due to a technical infringement. As someone already pointed out in the other thread Red Bull could have taken a 9th engine had they had one available without penalty while others are locked into what they have.

As for you not outraged by the matter. Fair enough, but it usually takes one of the front runners to bring these type of things to the attention of the general public.


That can happen without even starting from the pitlane. Dude qualifies 14th, has a 10 grid penalty from last race ie he has to start 24th -> free shiny new gearbox and engine. If you cast your mind across this season you will notice that part of the above has indeed happened ;)


#276 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:45

On face of it it could be that (a) Vettel really doesn't has a superior car over anyone else; he merely drives better than most ...


The problem with that assumption, as has been pointed out hundreds of times, is the lack of comparison. We know how quick Hamilton because he drove against two reigning world champions and beat them both. While on the other hand when it comes Vettel he has only driven alongside Webber, Liuzzi and Bourdais - hardly cream of the crop.






#277 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:46

You just don't get it do you... Vettel would not have been in a position to overtake them had they not been taken out at the start.


What does it at matter at which time of GP he overtook somebody? He had to overtake, period. To pretend he didn´t get ahead of Grosjean et. al. on track by his own is laughable.

Also his overtakes on them were after the first safety car. Him having to overtake Grosjean twice just goes to show how difficult it would have otherwise been because he had to resort to overtaking off track initially.


In fact it showed the opposite. Passing Grosjean was pretty easy for him.

Edited by LiJu914, 05 November 2012 - 11:46.


#278 Jon83

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:54

Posted Image


Yeah, of course this didn't get the attention it warranted at the time. I'm sure one of the Toro Rossi drivers did the same in 2010 with Webber in the middle of the straight.

#279 Sakae

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:55

The problem with that assumption, as has been pointed out hundreds of times, is the lack of comparison. We know how quick Hamilton because he drove against two reigning world champions and beat them both. While on the other hand when it comes Vettel he has only driven alongside Webber, Liuzzi and Bourdais - hardly cream of the crop.

I was under impression that we are discussing last race, not really ancient history. Bourdais, BTW won four consequtive crowns in Champ Car series, and if that doesn't count for anything than racing in America must be really in bad shape. (Try to tell that to JPM or JV, but my free of charge advise, run for cover right after that).

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#280 mey3059

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:59

Not about discreding Vettel, is about do the credit he won yesterday, and compare his race with Alonso's race in Valencia is a joke.

not a Comparison. This is how valencia turned out for Alonso

Lap 1: Alonso is 8th behind Hulk
Lap 12: Alonso overtakes Hulk, moves to 7th
( lap 14 hamilton pits from P3, rejoins P13 )
Lap 14: Alonso overtakes Maldonado, takes P5, behind kimi

(Lap 15: Kobayashi,Kimi pits - Alonso is P3)
Lap 16: Alonso pits, Joins P9 ahead of Kimi ( in effect P4)

Lap 22: Alonso is P4 overtaking Di Riesta , he is 6 seconds behind Hamilton

Lap 28 safety car deployed and Alonso was 3.6s behind hamilton, kimi is 2.6s behind

Safety car period pitstops : Alonso rejoins P3 behind grosjean

Lap 34: Track clear, Alonso overtakes grosjean and takes P2.
Lap 35: Alonso gains P1 after vettel stops.


How brilliant was this?

Edited by mey3059, 05 November 2012 - 12:01.


#281 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:10

I was under impression that we are discussing last race, not really ancient history.


I was merely responding to your "drives better than most" comment.

Bourdais, BTW won four consequtive crowns in Champ Car series


That may well be but Bourdais was a disaster in F1 - although he managed to outqualify Vettel several times the german was usually quicker. Buemi then convincingly finished Bourdais' career.


#282 mattferg

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:25

The problem with that assumption, as has been pointed out hundreds of times, is the lack of comparison. We know how quick Hamilton because he drove against two reigning world champions and beat them both. While on the other hand when it comes Vettel he has only driven alongside Webber, Liuzzi and Bourdais - hardly cream of the crop.


Yeah Webber's just completely rubbish... was nearly the man who stole WDC 2010 from Alonso, but that went to Vettel, consistently beat Alonso in lower series, and managed to qualify alongside Alonso in 2006 in his dominant Renault in a WILLIAMS COSWORTH. Yeah Webber is rubbish guys...

#283 Jon83

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:30

not a Comparison. This is how valencia turned out for Alonso

Lap 1: Alonso is 8th behind Hulk
Lap 12: Alonso overtakes Hulk, moves to 7th
( lap 14 hamilton pits from P3, rejoins P13 )
Lap 14: Alonso overtakes Maldonado, takes P5, behind kimi

(Lap 15: Kobayashi,Kimi pits - Alonso is P3)
Lap 16: Alonso pits, Joins P9 ahead of Kimi ( in effect P4)

Lap 22: Alonso is P4 overtaking Di Riesta , he is 6 seconds behind Hamilton

Lap 28 safety car deployed and Alonso was 3.6s behind hamilton, kimi is 2.6s behind

Safety car period pitstops : Alonso rejoins P3 behind grosjean

Lap 34: Track clear, Alonso overtakes grosjean and takes P2.
Lap 35: Alonso gains P1 after vettel stops.


How brilliant was this?


The overtake on Grosjean was brilliant.


#284 Ferrari2183

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:31

That can happen without even starting from the pitlane. Dude qualifies 14th, has a 10 grid penalty from last race ie he has to start 24th -> free shiny new gearbox and engine. If you cast your mind across this season you will notice that part of the above has indeed happened ;)

It boils down to the same thing. Being able to alter your car without incurring additional penalties. Would above said driver have done it had he not received a penalty? No.

Take a driver who qualified 10th for example while adhering to the sporting regulations but as a result of a legitimate concern with regard to his gearbox has to change it. He receives a 5 place grid penalty but as a consequence of being further back than his initial 10th spot they see fit to alter his gearing, this sends him back a further 5. So all in all he loses 10 places as a result of reliability while the guy with who infringed the sporting regulations gets a free pass to change everything.

I think it is a huge oversight in the regulations and hope it is addressed.

#285 mnmracer

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:01

The overtake on Grosjean was brilliant.

As was the overtake on Button.

#286 Jon83

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:07

As was the overtake on Button.


It was a good move sure, the best one Vettel did. I don't think it was on a par with the one I mentioned but each to their own.

#287 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:12

Obviously Seb was unlucky to start where he did. But to be fair, he had some good luck to finish where he did. So I'd say it evened itself out. No?

The SC's helped as did the multiple crashes. It also helped that the team changed the gearing and other things otherwise he would've had a much harder time. Still a good drive from him. Can't take anything away from him. I don't think it was any sort of epic drive but it wasn't shit either. I would say very solid drive.

#288 HP

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:13

I was glancing at their sector times, when Vettel was in the free air. Could be wrong but he didn't seem that fast compared to Webber.

How does a driver catch up another driver by being slower outside of the SCD phase??


#289 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:30

How does a driver catch up another driver by being slower outside of the SCD phase??


Slower in the open air? For example if the other driver is held up during parts of the race or has incidents with other cars.

#290 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:41

As was the overtake on Button.

You mean the guy with 15 laps more on his tires?

It was good, but I expected a bit more than a diehard struggle to pass one car after that 2nd SC.

#291 XAXIXAX

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:41

The Ferrari's were excellent on the straight so Ferrari must have been gutted when Massa wasn't facing the correct direction to hold Vettel up

That's what I thought ... , WTF you doin' at this precise moment... :rolleyes:

#292 apoka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:44

Taking a look at the times (f1matrix.it), Vettel saw his difference reduced by 12 seconds (versus the leader) in the first SC (from 24.89 in the last lap before the SC to 12.87 the last lap of the SC).
The difference got reduced by 22 seconds more (24.4 to 2.1), so overall, the difference got reduced by about 34 seconds versus the leader in the two Sc periods, plus the tire advantage in the second one.

This are real numbers.

In the same way, Alonso was benefited as well with the SC versus Raikkonen (from 9s to 1s), and ultimately, he was very close to him and close to win (if he had a chance for DRS, he would have had a clear oportunity).

So I don´t see why denying the obvious. Vettel was lucky with the events that ocurred during the race.

I don't want to deny, but just bring some facts into the SC discussion - thanks for doing this as well. Regarding the gaps, I measured in lap 8 and 17: Usually after an SC (or a start) the cars in traffic obviously lose a lot of time as the field stretches out. Using the measure he gained a second on Hamilton and actually even lost a bit to the others behind Hamilton (but had a bit fresher tyres). The second SC in isolation gave him 13 seconds vs. Button, but he already overtook the Webber group without it. Overall, I think P4 was very realistic without SC. Hard to say what was possible without all the crashes, spins and mechanical failures of other cars - I believe P5 (obviously with Hamilton winning, but I think he could have got everyone behind Hamilton/Kimi/Alonso/Button - of course that is not certain but he had the pace and the gaps to those drivers weren't that big). So, I'd speculate that the events helped him 2 positions further up.

Looking at the whole weekend, I think something like Ham/Vet/Rai/Alo as finishing order was realistic. In that sense, he still lost 9 points relative to Alonso (-3 instead of possibly +6). So he had some luck in the race (as all other drivers who finished the race), but was not lucky on the weekend as a whole.


#293 dau

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:44

Yeah, of course this didn't get the attention it warranted at the time. I'm sure one of the Toro Rossi drivers did the same in 2010 with Webber in the middle of the straight.

Yea, i remember that as well. But let's face it, that was hardly a deciding move yesterday. Vettel would've passed Vergne on the straight anyway, he was 2.6s faster the lap before.

Edited by dau, 05 November 2012 - 13:44.


#294 HP

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:51

Slower in the open air? For example if the other driver is held up during parts of the race or has incidents with other cars.

To me the open air argument is a bit difficult, as again we have to compare tires, fuel, which we cannot unless we have full data access. Also in this case, Vettel not necessarily had a better setup than Webber, since they changed the setup for better top end speed, which compromises other things, as Vettel himself said after the race. So a car setup for overtaking other cars (higher top end speed), might not work as well as the sister car in open air. I wouldn't read that much into it. Lets also not forget that Vettel also lost time in free practice, which isn't ideal too.

Anyway, in the end I saw an exciting and fantastic race, in which Hamilton/Raikkonen/Alonso/Vettel were the standouts for me. More of such races please. Shame about Hamilton having to retire, but interestingly enough it would not have changed the gap between Vettel and Alonso had they come in 3rd and 4th. And IMO had Vettel started in P3, then he might have won this, but we'd have much less to talk about.


#295 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:53

What made his race was Grosjean. Had he not held everybody up Vettel's would have came out bottom end of top 10 after his 2nd stop. Why was Grosjean able to get in such a position to hold everyone up? 1st SC. Had Rosberg, Di Resta, Massa, Senna, Hamilton, Hulk not had problems the order would have been
1.Hamilton
2.Kimi
3.Fred
4.Button
5.Maldonado
6/7/8/9/10/11 Perez/DiResta/Webber/Massa/Hulk/Senna/Vettel

Had Grosjean had a clean race he would have been in amongst too, but the 1st SC allowed him to pit and go long on a pair of softs, and he held the pack up at a second a lap, Vettel's rejoined only 2-3 seconds up the road, not due to his superior pace, due to Grosjean and the 1st SC.

Edited by TomNokoe, 05 November 2012 - 13:56.


#296 dau

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:01

You mean the guy with 15 laps more on his tires?

It was good, but I expected a bit more than a diehard struggle to pass one car after that 2nd SC.

When Vettel got past Button in L52, his used options had done 11 laps under racing conditions vs. 19 on Button's new primes. Button's fastest lap of the race was in L50, so his tyres seemed to be in good shape at that point.

#297 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:31

...
Had Grosjean had a clean race he would have been in amongst too, but the 1st SC allowed him to pit and go long on a pair of softs, and he held the pack up at a second a lap, Vettel's rejoined only 2-3 seconds up the road, not due to his superior pace, due to Grosjean and the 1st SC.


Grosjean had also the opportunity to hold Vettel up, but he couldn´t. He was able to overtake him, the others weren´t.

#298 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:49

Grosjean had also the opportunity to hold Vettel up, but he couldn´t. He was able to overtake him, the others weren´t.


Grosjean is a good benchmark to see how brilliant Vettel´s race was. After the first safety car restart they were together, on roughly equal cars, with exactly the same tyre strategy.

#299 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:56

Grosjean is a good benchmark to see how brilliant Vettel´s race was. After the first safety car restart they were together, on roughly equal cars ...


Roughly equal cars? Perhaps in Kimi's hands, hardly Grosjean's.


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#300 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:00

Roughly equal cars? Perhaps in Kimi's hands, hardly Grosjean's.


Well, we´re trying to see how much Vettel´s fault was ending up there, aren´t we? Surely comparing him with an average driver in roughly equal machinery is what you have to do.

It´s just Romain´s fault not following Vettel slicing through the field / it´s just Vettel´s merit not ending up doing a similar race to what Romain did.