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#301 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:02

Well, we´re trying to see how much Vettel´s fault was ending up there, aren´t we? Surely comparing him with an average driver in roughly equal machinery ....


Why do you say that the Lotus is roughly equal to the Red Bull?


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#302 prty

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:07

Vettel's race position was impacted by equipment malfunction, as it was reported. I would call it bad luck for Vettel, and good luck for Alonso. What else is it?


Just told you, if you put less fuel than needed in the car, it's a cock up, not luck.

#303 jk

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:15

Why do you say that the Lotus is roughly equal to the Red Bull?


Because Kimi was crushing Webber. Kimi is better than Webber, but no one today is that good that they can dominate a decent guy without the cars being at worst roughly equal.

#304 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:20

Because Kimi was crushing Webber. Kimi is better than Webber, but no one today is that good that they can dominate a decent guy without the cars being at worst roughly equal.



Webber was stuck behind slower cars so he had no free track like Kimi. McLaren and Red Bull are the best cars and Ferrari and Lotus are 0,2-0,4 behind them.

#305 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:32

Because Kimi was crushing Webber. Kimi is better than Webber, but no one today is that good that they can dominate a decent guy without the cars being at worst roughly equal.


And how on earth do you know that? Have you seen the gap between teammates in absolutely equal cars?

#306 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:38

Grosjean had also the opportunity to hold Vettel up, but he couldn´t. He was able to overtake him, the others weren´t.

That's totally unrelated. Grosjean held up faster cars who would have been in front if Vettel's after the 2nd stop.

#307 Cenotaph

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 16:59

Obviously Seb was unlucky to start where he did. But to be fair, he had some good luck to finish where he did. So I'd say it evened itself out. No?


Not necessarily, if we consider he would be the likely candidate to win after Lewis' retirement, he could have left Abu Dhabi with a 23pts lead and instead saw his lead decrease to 10pts. Big difference. Ofc, it's all speculative but still a fair assumption considering recent GP history.

#308 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:38

Thread is about Vettel's race, his progress from last to third, how that was affected by the actions of others etc. It is not about Kimi, or Alonso, or Bourdais, etc etc.

Please get back to discussing the topic.

"I absolutely must have the last word on this" is not a reason to ignore my request.

#309 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:27

Let us see... In order of appearance. First lap - Rosberg, Hulkenberg, Di Resta and Grosjean. They quite possibly wouldn't have finished ahead of Vettel but they are notoriously difficult to overtake. Next was Hamilton's retirement after the safety car. Without even thinking about it I have given you examples of cars he didn't have to race with due to incidents.


Think about it this way, Alonso and Maldonado's tyres were of similar age. Vettel's tyres were quite a bit fresher than Button's. Think of it in relative terms.


He passed Schumi with ease, Di Resta with ease, Grosjean twice in 2 laps. None of them were able to provide any challenge in holding him up, so I can't see that happening later one either.

And yet Maldonado was attacked by Webber in the next lap, then Webber again and they collided, then Button came past in the next lap. His pace was very poor at that point as well. Like I said, Button was much more competitive at the time Vettel passed him.

Obviously Seb was unlucky to start where he did. But to be fair, he had some good luck to finish where he did. So I'd say it evened itself out. No?


Definitely not. With Vettel starting 3rd it would've been extremely likely he was going to win that race, so the net result for Vettel was clearly on the negative.

#310 robefc

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:29

Definitely not. With Vettel starting 3rd it would've been extremely likely he was going to win that race, so the net result for Vettel was clearly on the negative.


If Lewis still DNf'd you mean?

One thing that struck me was Vettel's laptimes...they presumably compromised the car to get good top speed (versus optimal for laptime) but his times were still bloody quick.

Which seemed to mean that the RB is bloody quick however you set it up, or would that set up be preferential for race laptimes compares to quali set up for quali laptimes anyway?

#311 robefc

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:30

Just told you, if you put less fuel than needed in the car, it's a cock up, not luck.


I don't think vettel's in charge of putting fuel in though so as far as it relates to him it's luck, no?

#312 prty

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:36

I don't think vettel's in charge of putting fuel in though so as far as it relates to him it's luck, no?


His team is, isn't it? I don't think Vettel is the reason he landed in the quickest car either, no?

#313 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:43

If Lewis still DNf'd you mean?

One thing that struck me was Vettel's laptimes...they presumably compromised the car to get good top speed (versus optimal for laptime) but his times were still bloody quick.

Which seemed to mean that the RB is bloody quick however you set it up, or would that set up be preferential for race laptimes compares to quali set up for quali laptimes anyway?


Yes, of course. Who knows if Vettel could've challenged Hamilton if he didn't retire, perhaps.

I agree that it would be nice for RB to sometimes gear the cars faster on the straights, i hate how the RB is always eaten up with the DRS sometimes from ridiculous distances.

His team is, isn't it? I don't think Vettel is the reason he landed in the quickest car either, no?


His team's mistake, bad luck for him. What's the problem.

#314 apoka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:56

One thing that struck me was Vettel's laptimes...they presumably compromised the car to get good top speed (versus optimal for laptime) but his times were still bloody quick.

I also wondered about this. However, Abu Dhabi is one Vettel's favourite tracks and not one of Webber's. There were only few laps when both had the exactly same conditions (free air, same tyre), but overall Vettel seemed to be a lot faster despite the low downforce setup. They also ran similar setups before successfully with the RB7 (Spa, Monza). On other occassions like this year in Monza the car was a handful with low downforce. Overall, it seems that it's better for them to go for more downforce and less top speed. To win, this basically requires a front row start and good tyre management. Whenever something goes wrong, that won't work. As a fan, it is definitely more interesting to have a "racy" car like he had in Abu Dhabi, which allows much more flexibility with strategy.


#315 bourbon

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:56

Brilliant pass.

EDIT: Somebody calling his race a 'stunner'. lol


Yes, for me, a Raikkonen and Vettel fan, it was a stunner of a race: a brilliant drive by the never give up kid, Vettel, and a beauty of a drive by the uncatchable Raikkonen.


EDIT2: Oh wait, saw who posted it.


Indeed. :cool:

Edited by bourbon, 05 November 2012 - 18:58.


#316 Ricardo F1

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:07

Webber was stuck behind slower cars so he had no free track like Kimi. McLaren and Red Bull are the best cars and Ferrari and Lotus are 0,2-0,4 behind them.

Webber also wasn't driving Vettel's car - the one that had been optimally set up for both qualifying and the race and not a bullet set up to pass cars from the back of the pack.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 05 November 2012 - 19:08.


#317 harrys

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:20

It sickened me to see Vettel smirking on the podium as if he had just completed an incredible Senna-esque drive from the back of the grid to the podium, and hearing some ignorant 'journalists' heap praise on him for it sickened me further.

The truth is Vettel drove appallingly for most of the weekend, and got very lucky. He had contact at the start of the race which damaged his front wing. Then almost crashed into a Toro Rosso under the safety car (before complaining ridiculously on the radio like a spoilt child afterwards that it was Ricciardo's fault), and crashed into a polystyrene marker block. He was terribly lucky with the safety cars, and from 4th place with brand new options (and the three cars ahead of him on used primes) he really should have won - better drivers certainly would have.

If you want a real example of a brilliant drive from the back, look no further than last year's Canadian Grand Prix, where Jenson Button rose from last to first. And let's not forget that in this race, Vettel made an amateurish mistake under pressure on the last lap which cost him the race - you wouldn't see Hamilton or even Alonso make a mistake like that under pressure on the last lap.

Let's face it, nobody can possibly coherently argue that Vettel belongs alongside the likes of Prost, Senna, Schumacher and others who have won the world drivers' championship three times. It's very sad for F1 if he wins 3 consecutive crowns. The guy has so much good luck it's ridiculous. If Hamilton had a fraction of this luck over the last few years he would already be a multiple world drivers champion.

#318 Cenotaph

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:30

Button's drive at montreal was worse than vettel's in every aspect: mistakes, luck, car advantage, drs, etc. And i still agree it was great to watch, why can't vettel get the credit he deserves for yesterday's race is beyond me.

#319 apoka

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:56

If you want a real example of a brilliant drive from the back, look no further than last year's Canadian Grand Prix, where Jenson Button rose from last to first. And let's not forget that in this race, Vettel made an amateurish mistake under pressure on the last lap which cost him the race - you wouldn't see Hamilton or even Alonso make a mistake like that under pressure on the last lap.

In case that is not sarcasm: At that very race, Vettel was dominating apart from the last few laps and himself was quite unlucky with 5 SCs - each time losing the gap he build. You could well argue that he drove better than Button overall that race, although it certainly was a great race of Button in the second half of it. That mistake from Vettel was the only one possibly (not even certain whether he could have stayed ahead) costing him a position in all of 2011. Hamilton had his share of mistakes in 2011, so that argument is void.

Let's face it, nobody can possibly coherently argue that Vettel belongs alongside the likes of Prost, Senna, Schumacher and others who have won the world drivers' championship three times. It's very sad for F1 if he wins 3 consecutive crowns. The guy has so much good luck it's ridiculous. If Hamilton had a fraction of this luck over the last few years he would already be a multiple world drivers champion.

Do you think he would have ended up behind Alonso without having to start from the back? If no, why was he incredible lucky to lose 3 points.


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#320 RealRacing

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:12

Lesson from this thread: downplay your car every race weekend and the undiscerning masses will believe you are great.

#321 Sausage

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:30

I'm not putting words here about Vettel but this thread reminds me of "legendary" Schumacher strategy at Mangy Course 2004(?) where he did 4 stops. So this is generally regarded on forums/sites as incredible F1 history, but I always thought it was bs. That car was dominant strong and Schu of course the best driver of it, could've done 7 stops and still won (sort of). It was different sure, but all in all not that special and certainly not legendary or whatever imho.

So to each his own what is great I guess.

#322 1Devil1

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:17

I'm not putting words here about Vettel but this thread reminds me of "legendary" Schumacher strategy at Mangy Course 2004(?) where he did 4 stops. So this is generally regarded on forums/sites as incredible F1 history, but I always thought it was bs. That car was dominant strong and Schu of course the best driver of it, could've done 7 stops and still won (sort of). It was different sure, but all in all not that special and certainly not legendary or whatever imho.

So to each his own what is great I guess.


It all about perception of a driver. I call myself a big Schumacher fan but also never understood the fuss about France 2004. It was a good race but I can list at least 20 drives of him which were more spectacular. You can add a lot of examples but it is down to your fan believe and "facts" you are using if you believe a driver had enormous luck or did something great. For myself I never got the real deal about some "great" drives of Hamilton but I wouldn't find countless excuses to deny his achievements. Sometimes I ask myself what Vettel has to do to get praised like other drivers. When he is starting from pole, it is not enough, when is fighting good in the mid pack, it is not enough, he is coming back from the end of the field, it is not enough. We end up in the same circle again - Adrian Newey, luck, bad overtaker, no race craft... Sometimes I imagine if Vettel would have done a Hamilton year 2011 he never would be seen as great again for years. In Hamilton's case nobody talks about it, and still he is seen as best overtaker despite clumsiness (referring to word everybody is using for Vettel) all over the place. Don't get my wrong he is one of the best (Hamilton) but this biased perceptions against Vettel is unreal.

#323 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:28

Why do you say that the Lotus is roughly equal to the Red Bull?


Because that´s the phrase it´s used in this language to describe the situation when two things are closely matched? :rolleyes:

And look at where Romain and Vettel ended from the same situation and in cars with similar ultimate pace. It´s not as if average Joe would do what Vettel did, you need a world class driver in there to do what he did from there.

#324 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:31

I call myself a big Schumacher fan but also never understood the fuss about France 2004.


It was just because it was the first time someone won a dry weather race with that strategy. But as you say, nothing special. They just needed to do some laps alone, a 2 or a 4 stopper -or even a 3 stopper with a significantly longer stint- would have made it.

If you want to see the ultimate outsmart tactic-win you must re-watch Imola 2006. Ferrari LOLled in Renault´s face. If I was Alonso I´d have been totally mad after that race.

#325 1Devil1

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:39

It was just because it was the first time someone won a dry weather race with that strategy. But as you say, nothing special. They just needed to do some laps alone, a 2 or a 4 stopper -or even a 3 stopper with a significantly longer stint- would have made it.

If you want to see the ultimate outsmart tactic-win you must re-watch Imola 2006. Ferrari LOLled in Renault´s face. If I was Alonso I´d have been totally mad after that race.


The best driver and the best car which was miles ahead. I can see the point of it. It was special because of four stops. But this strategy was not special, not comparable to Hungary 1998, one driver pulled out qualifying laps one after another with the fitting strategy. He won the race despite four stops not because of it

#326 choyothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:58


Sometimes I imagine if Vettel would have done a Hamilton year 2011 he never would be seen as great again for years. In Hamilton's case nobody talks about it, and still he is seen as best overtaker despite clumsiness (referring to word everybody is using for Vettel) all over the place. Don't get my wrong he is one of the best (Hamilton) but this biased perceptions against Vettel is unreal.


:up: It would be scary to think what the perception of Vettel would be if he had a year like that.

#327 PinkZepStones

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:20

I can guarantee you of Vettel performs like say 2011 in terms of pole to flag wins the moment he (might) steps into say Ferrari, trouncing whoever his teammate may be, the so called hate will cease immediately, I've been watching F1 long enough, irony being you only need to have watched it from 2006, to see that this *driver winning a lot, how good is he really, does he deserve it* has and will crop up for every talent.

Alonso was asked these questions, four years after last title well and truly proved it, Hamilton asked these questions, 2009 proofed it, Vettel is still winning in near enough the same team, car and format since his first title two years ago until now, expect the same talk if this continues next year.


Most drivers, most top drivers never have the luxury of a dominant car, Vettel has for two years straight and the year before and after that the best at certain halves of the season.

When he wins like this you fans of his need to learn to shutup whining and rub it into people's faces, cause it won't last forever, but your all too interested in trying to change the minds of people you don't know who rightly think different then you, just enjoy the success whilst it lasts.

And don't get so snappy cause most people don't think he's bigger then Jesus, because nobody's bigger then Jesus, except super Jesus.

#328 prty

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:21

Some data: the last driver to end up in the podium starting from the pit lane was Trulli in Australia 2009.

#329 Kvothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:22

Sky have done a lap by lap race report of Vettel's race:

Lucky? From pitlane to podium - the full story of Sebastian Vettel's Abu Dhabi GP





#330 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:37

Sky have done a lap by lap race report of Vettel's race:

Lucky? From pitlane to podium - the full story of Sebastian Vettel's Abu Dhabi GP


For all the genius claiming first SC helped him, it´s a must read. :rolleyes:

When he was able to get back to the position where he was before SC deployment, the gap to the leader was bigger than before the safety car deployment, he still had to stop once as before, and there was a good bunch less of laps to go.

#331 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:39

I can guarantee you of Vettel performs like say 2011 in terms of pole to flag wins the moment he (might) steps into say Ferrari, trouncing whoever his teammate may be, the so called hate will cease immediately, I've been watching F1 long enough, irony being you only need to have watched it from 2006, to see that this *driver winning a lot, how good is he really, does he deserve it* has and will crop up for every talent.



Sounds plausible. But on other other hand, somebody recently claimed that MSC´s "actual driving was average" (despite at least 3 WDCs without significantly superior machinery). I wonder, who it was... Oh wait, it was you.

#332 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:47

Thread is not about Lewis Hamilton - please move on.

#333 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:50

Sky have done a lap by lap race report of Vettel's race:

Lucky? From pitlane to podium - the full story of Sebastian Vettel's Abu Dhabi GP


As this arcticle was problably also triggered by some post-race-comments in the paddock, it had to think of this:

Whitmarsh after Canada 2011: "I think it was one of the best wins in the history of F1, let alone his"
Button after Canada 2011: "For me it was a fantastic race. Even if I hadn't won I would have enjoyed this race immensely, but it's a win, definitely my best"

Whitmarsh after Abu Dhabi: " "[...] I think he was pretty fortunate with safety cars and the general demolition derby that was going on. [...]"
Button after Abu Dhabi: ""Vettel got lucky with the second Safety Car,"


Oh the irony....



#334 PinkZepStones

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:53

Sounds plausible. But on other other hand, somebody recently claimed that MSC´s "actual driving was average" (despite at least 3 WDCs without significantly superior machinery). I wonder, who it was... Oh wait, it was you.



On average I believe it was his car was very good and his 90 years were most impressive, but never once did I say he didn't deserve it, or is the worst world champion, I stated his title count reflected his sheer team building skills, dedication, motivation and cunning, a true world champion. Now this topic is about Vettel and I'm trying to alleviate his fans of the trouble Hamilton fans and Alonso fans to name two have also been through, so stop acting like I've just shat in your letterbox and set it on fire.


Vettel has shown all the qualities good nd bd I must add of schumi so far and I think he's something better then most, but not all, that's irrelevant.

#335 Nigol

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:56

For all the genius claiming first SC helped him, it´s a must read. :rolleyes:

When he was able to get back to the position where he was before SC deployment, the gap to the leader was bigger than before the safety car deployment, he still had to stop once as before, and there was a good bunch less of laps to go.


But was that because of the safety car or because of taking a closer look at the DRS sign? :)

#336 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 22:59

But was that because of the safety car or because of taking a closer look at the DRS sign? :)


B couldn´t happen without A.

#337 Nigol

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:12

B couldn´t happen without A.


I really don't know what to say now. :stoned:

#338 tomjol

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:19

B couldn´t happen without A.


A helped him. B was his own doing.

#339 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:19

2 laps full-speed before SC and then 5 laps with Button having DRS from Alonso.
Kinda takes the freshness out of soft tires.


He probably knows this himself. At least i also can´t believe, that somebody is so misinformed to genuinely claim, that Vettel had superb reliabilty in the last few years unlike poor Mark Webber (that´s the guy with zero tech-related DNFs since 2009).

Edited by LiJu914, 05 November 2012 - 23:21.


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#340 LiJu914

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:21

A helped him. B was his own doing.


No. A didn´t help, because of B.

So, to make that clear:
They first SC-period could´ve helped him. They way it actually turned out, it didn´t help him.

#341 Kvothe

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:24

As this arcticle was problably also triggered by some post-race-comments in the paddock, it had to think of this:

Whitmarsh after Canada 2011: "I think it was one of the best wins in the history of F1, let alone his"
Button after Canada 2011: "For me it was a fantastic race. Even if I hadn't won I would have enjoyed this race immensely, but it's a win, definitely my best"

Whitmarsh after Abu Dhabi: " "[...] I think he was pretty fortunate with safety cars and the general demolition derby that was going on. [...]"
Button after Abu Dhabi: ""Vettel got lucky with the second Safety Car,"


Oh the irony....


I think some of the post race comments were certainly in bad taste, while I don't think it was a special drive, it certainly wasn't all down to luck, and you've quite rightly drawn a parallel with Canada 2011 which was almost universally rated as the best race of 2011, but which bears a remarkable similarity (albeit. without the winning), and the contrasting statements of Whitmarsh and Button.

#342 nada12

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:26

It all about perception of a driver. I call myself a big Schumacher fan but also never understood the fuss about France 2004. It was a good race but I can list at least 20 drives of him which were more spectacular. You can add a lot of examples but it is down to your fan believe and "facts" you are using if you believe a driver had enormous luck or did something great. For myself I never got the real deal about some "great" drives of Hamilton but I wouldn't find countless excuses to deny his achievements. Sometimes I ask myself what Vettel has to do to get praised like other drivers. When he is starting from pole, it is not enough, when is fighting good in the mid pack, it is not enough, he is coming back from the end of the field, it is not enough. We end up in the same circle again - Adrian Newey, luck, bad overtaker, no race craft... Sometimes I imagine if Vettel would have done a Hamilton year 2011 he never would be seen as great again for years. In Hamilton's case nobody talks about it, and still he is seen as best overtaker despite clumsiness (referring to word everybody is using for Vettel) all over the place. Don't get my wrong he is one of the best (Hamilton) but this biased perceptions against Vettel is unreal.

Spot on. :up:

#343 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:44

And look at where Romain and Vettel ended from the same situation and in cars with similar ultimate pace.


Nobody thinks the Lotus is as fast as the Red Bull. Just because an on form Raikkonen is faster than Webber doesn't mean the Lotus is faster.

#344 Skinnyguy

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:54

Nobody thinks the Lotus is as fast as the Red Bull.


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103995

Thank God there is someone on the grid not downplaying his car every week and telling us openly what´s the real potential of the car. These two cars were on the same league this week.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 05 November 2012 - 23:58.


#345 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:57

Sometimes I ask myself what Vettel has to do to get praised like other drivers.


Easy.

A proven teammate. Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Massa, Raikkonen have all been tested against a WDC or at least a multiple race winners.

Vettel's teammates: Liuzzi, Heidfeld, Webber and Bourdais. None of them had won a single race when paired against Vettel. That frankly isn't a good enough data sample to make a convincing argument.




#346 karlth

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:58

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103995


And you think he is talking about the car?

#347 mnmracer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:01

Easy.

A proven teammate. Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Massa, Raikkonen have all been tested against a WDC or at least a multiple race winners.

Vettel's teammates: Liuzzi, Heidfeld, Webber and Bourdais. None of them had won a single race when paired against Vettel. That frankly isn't a good enough data sample to make a convincing argument.


So he should prove himself against a WDC, while your argument is that him being a WDC is worthless in itself.
Interesting, albeit faulty, reasoning.

#348 LiJu914

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:03

Easy.

A proven teammate. Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Massa, Raikkonen have all been tested against a WDC or at least a multiple race winners.

Vettel's teammates: Liuzzi, Heidfeld, Webber and Bourdais. None of them had won a single race when paired against Vettel. That frankly isn't a good enough data sample to make a convincing argument.


Hamilton also hadn´t won anything, when he was paired with Alonso. ;)
btw. Heidfeld beat Raikkonen, Massa and Vettel (if we really want to count a single race). So he´s probably the uber-driver. Too bad - he didn´t look that superior compared to Webber...


Don´t take my words too seriously.

Edited by LiJu914, 06 November 2012 - 00:04.


#349 karlth

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:05

So he should prove himself against a WDC, while your argument is that him being a WDC is worthless in itself.


Who said a WDC was worthless? Vettel still had to beat his teammate and deliver during the season, not everyone can do that.

#350 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:05

Easy.

A proven teammate. Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Massa, Raikkonen have all been tested against a WDC or at least a multiple race winners.

Vettel's teammates: Liuzzi, Heidfeld, Webber and Bourdais. None of them had won a single race when paired against Vettel. That frankly isn't a good enough data sample to make a convincing argument.


I thought Webber was a multiple race winner, but in la-la-land things look different... Whichever way you want to look at it, he´s not doing any worse than Button or Massa, is he?? And no one is stupid enough to question Lewis/Alonso´s recent shape. But that´s the problem double standars.

Vettel fans have more class than these two fanbases, big time. This weekend there was loads of "off the white line" stuff in qualifying. Not a single word about it when Vettel´s not on pole, huge thread emerges when Vettel´s on pole. This weekend Vettel took the crazy grid penalty stablished for the undefueled thing, and no huge cry thread about this rule like in Spain... even worse, there was people crying because the guy that did his last quali attempt 150 grams underfueled could change his setup and be allowed to race!! Do a simple exercise people, forget it was Vettel and how much you hate him, and you´ll instantly see how dumb it was. :wave: