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#351 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:07

And you think he is talking about the car?


What´s he talking about then?? Fast food?? Bush-walida??

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#352 LiJu914

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:10

btw. guys, you/we´re getting offtopic. This might better be discussed in the Vettel-thread.....for the 1000th time.

Edited by LiJu914, 06 November 2012 - 00:11.


#353 Infinityl

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:14

not a Comparison. This is how valencia turned out for Alonso

Lap 1: Alonso is 8th behind Hulk
Lap 12: Alonso overtakes Hulk, moves to 7th
( lap 14 hamilton pits from P3, rejoins P13 )
Lap 14: Alonso overtakes Maldonado, takes P5, behind kimi

(Lap 15: Kobayashi,Kimi pits - Alonso is P3)
Lap 16: Alonso pits, Joins P9 ahead of Kimi ( in effect P4)

Lap 22: Alonso is P4 overtaking Di Riesta , he is 6 seconds behind Hamilton

Lap 28 safety car deployed and Alonso was 3.6s behind hamilton, kimi is 2.6s behind

Safety car period pitstops : Alonso rejoins P3 behind grosjean

Lap 34: Track clear, Alonso overtakes grosjean and takes P2.
Lap 35: Alonso gains P1 after vettel stops.


How brilliant was this?


Alonso start 11º not 8º.

And you forget some overtakes, like Schumacher, Webber ....



#354 karlth

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:14

I thought Webber was a multiple race winner ...


He wasn't.

Vettel fans have more class than these two fanbases, big time.


I think we can agree on that. You are very classy.

#355 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:17

Back on topic please.

#356 joshb

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 00:31

Alonso start 11º not 8º.

And you forget some overtakes, like Schumacher, Webber ....


By that stage Schumi was 5 or 6 secs off the pace and Webber was due a stop too. He'd done well to make it up to 4th in the first stint by without a bit of good fortune, which we all need, he wouldn't have Same yesterday. Vettel did really well to stay within a pitstop of almost everyon, got lucy that Grosjean made a safety net to pit, and lucky with the 2nd SC which gave him a shot at 3rd. (or the win i was hoping)

#357 Sakae

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:19

I thought Webber was a multiple race winner, but in la-la-land things look different... Whichever way you want to look at it, he´s not doing any worse than Button or Massa, is he?? And no one is stupid enough to question Lewis/Alonso´s recent shape. But that´s the problem double standars.

Vettel fans have more class than these two fanbases, big time. This weekend there was loads of "off the white line" stuff in qualifying. Not a single word about it when Vettel´s not on pole, huge thread emerges when Vettel´s on pole. This weekend Vettel took the crazy grid penalty stablished for the undefueled thing, and no huge cry thread about this rule like in Spain... even worse, there was people crying because the guy that did his last quali attempt 150 grams underfueled could change his setup and be allowed to race!! Do a simple exercise people, forget it was Vettel and how much you hate him, and you´ll instantly see how dumb it was. :wave:

Welcome to the internet and BB - racing forum. Fact remains, this was one of the weirdest races I have seen in very, very long time, including now famous vent-off in post race interview. (Talking about corporate robots anyone)?

#358 H2H

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:45

It all about perception of a driver. I call myself a big Schumacher fan but also never understood the fuss about France 2004. It was a good race but I can list at least 20 drives of him which were more spectacular. You can add a lot of examples but it is down to your fan believe and "facts" you are using if you believe a driver had enormous luck or did something great. For myself I never got the real deal about some "great" drives of Hamilton but I wouldn't find countless excuses to deny his achievements. Sometimes I ask myself what Vettel has to do to get praised like other drivers. When he is starting from pole, it is not enough, when is fighting good in the mid pack, it is not enough, he is coming back from the end of the field, it is not enough. We end up in the same circle again - Adrian Newey, luck, bad overtaker, no race craft... Sometimes I imagine if Vettel would have done a Hamilton year 2011 he never would be seen as great again for years. In Hamilton's case nobody talks about it, and still he is seen as best overtaker despite clumsiness (referring to word everybody is using for Vettel) all over the place. Don't get my wrong he is one of the best (Hamilton) but this biased perceptions against Vettel is unreal.


I think you summed it up well. I would invite some of the guys to rewatch some of the 'legendary' drives through the field in the last twenty years. Some examples have already been mentioned in this thread. It would help to understand quite a bit more about racing and bias. But as usual in life there will be always some which can not see the light even if they stare into the sun.

#359 karlth

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:59

I think you summed it up well. I would invite some of the guys to rewatch some of the 'legendary' drives through the field in the last twenty years.


Most if not all of them were simply the fastest car overtaking much slower cars and being helped by the safety car.

We had a few of these "memorable" drivers in the late 90s when Hakkinen and Coulthard miraculously drove from the back in the dominant McLaren and were declared by "experts" to be driving gods.




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#360 BenettonB192

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:36

I don't remember that there ever was a similar thread when another driver fought his way from the back through the field.
It's quite pathetic. But also predictable given that the "Vettel cant fight from the back"-line was one of the last straws of the Vettel-haters.
He proved this one wrong like so many of the other false stereotypes and now people are grabbing at even smaller straws.

#361 1Devil1

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:46

I don't remember that there ever was a similar thread when another driver fought his way from the back through the field.
It's quite pathetic. But also predictable given that the "Vettel cant fight from the back"-line was one of the last straws of the Vettel-haters.
He proved this one wrong like so many of the other false stereotypes and now people are grabbing at even smaller straws.


He should have lost against Webber 2010. Because he would have proven himself against a former WDC in 2011 and 2012.

#362 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:15

He wasn't.

I think we can agree on that. You are very classy.


Was Button a worse driver before 2009? I don´t think so. Webber is a multiple race winner now, and there´s no way you can ask him to have been before 2009, because he didn´t drove cars capable of that. Still, the guy came was signing front rows and big points in a Jaguar, or challenging for wins in the 2006 piece of junk Williams :wave: That says about him much more than multiple wins in the 2009-2012 RB if you ask anyone with a bit of common sense. In fact I´d say Mark´s rating -of those who paid any attention to him before I mean- is quite lower now than in earlier stages of his career. I know it doesn´t fit your agenda, but Webber looked really good until he got alongside Vettel, wins or not.

By the way, I´m a Räikkönen fan, not a Vettel fan. But I want him badly to win now seeing the ammount of hate he causes now. But I´m not the topic, anything to say about my statement or the backup I gave to claim?

#363 SteF1an

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:35

He should have lost against Webber 2010. Because he would have proven himself against a former WDC in 2011 and 2012.

:rotfl:

#364 ali_M

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:01

I finally worked through this thread. Amazing. I really hope now that Vettel wins this championship.

To see an article in Autosport that highlights Vettel's luck is very telling too. Yes, he had luck as would be needed to get a podium at Abu Dhabi while driving from last place.

Let's see:

If Vettel overtakes Button quickly, it's down to car dominance... no credit to Vettel. Vettel has to work for the overtake and pulls it off in a brave manner that has an unusually honest competitor as Button giving him credit for his bravery. Now he's being said to have passed a napping Button and that he did terribly to have taken so long to pass in a dominant car with fresher rubber. The poor fellow just can't win.

In stark contrast, Alonso can do no wrong, it seems. All his drives are splendid and he's always putting the car where it shouldn't be. As to 'Luck'? No such thing mentioned. Just his driving brilliance. The more this is parroted, the more it reaches exaggerated levels. As an Alonso supporter, I really have to laugh at how it's almost like a mirror image to the exaggerated perception of Vettel. All that's repetitively mentioned is that Alonso is driving a car that is 4th fastest or worse. Few seem to note that qualifying performance is not the same as race performance and that Alonso typically enjoys very decent race pace during the GP's and that he is recipient of less dramatic but very regular moments of luck in the form of reliability and key moments of front runners DNF'ing, or running into trouble.

Hamilton gets a resounding pole and easily controls a race from the front prior until a technical failure hits. What a drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vettel gets a resounding pole and controls the race from the front until a technical failure hits. What a car developer Newey is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vettel ends up having to start the race from the back of the grid. This isn't bad luck for him. It's instead good for the sport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hamilton ends up at the back of the grid in Spain for indentical reasons and after taking a commanding pole in an 'erm' dominant car? How unjust and unlucky after such a great performance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn the FIA and stewards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The rules allow car setup changes if a car starts from the pit lane. This has been the case forever. There's not a hoot about this being unfair until Vettel and RBR choose to go this route despite the clear trade off in terms of race position when starting from the pit lane. It has always been assumed that allowing setup changes would be reasonable considering the extra handicap suffered having to start from the pitlane. Vettel drives to 3rd and since Vettel, the kid can't have anything to do with this, it's suddenly down to a car advantage made greater by a pitlane start with car setup change. It's unfair and should be reviewed come the shouts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The penalty that came before that and its consequences are ignored. But no they aren't! They are deserved and about time!!

Hamilton and Alonso overtake nicely when their cars are doing well etc. When Vettel does the same, it's the car.

There's nothing that this kid can do to impress and it's because he's just that.... a very young German, achieving so much. Those unable to accept the truth of his excellence choose all manner of ways to explain it away through claims of 'incredible' luck and car advantages that no previous race winners from the back and F1 champions seem to have had the pleasure of enjoying until this little kid came along. What a terrible and unjust world F1 has SUDDENLY become!!! Goodness me.... what are we going to do??? :cry: :cry: :eek: :eek:

You show them Vettel!!! Good for you.... Keep doing what you're doing. You have just as much a right to success as all those before you and all those who you currently compete with.

As to Alonso... what a fantastic performance on his part this year.. same as Vettel's. Same as Hamilton's when given the machinery and race circumstances to achieve. Of course, Alonso, like all other drivers needed the favourable race circumstances, car reliability, and on average, very good race pace to make his current results possible.

Both Alonso and Vettel are deserving of the championship in my eyes, but a thread like this one makes me wish to see Vettel win the championship again. If it's not Alonso, I'm sure his time will come.

Despite the tough situation of having the start from the back, Vettel put in, as is usually the case, a very good race, punctuated by luck admittedly. His car was NOT as quick as some seem to claim during the race, though he was not slow. Vettel had to do his work for that result and even got flustered in the early stages. Not a perfect run, but darned good. Certainly as high a standard as I've grown to expect from this young German wonder. We should celebrate the talent we have the opportunity of witnessing, rather than work up a lot of energy to deny its presence. Red Bull have done well to secure Vettel's service equally as much as Newey's. They are reaping the rewards. Either you smile on it or begrudge it. One makes you feel good. The other makes you feel and look miserable. Pick your choice. :wave:

Edited by ali_M, 07 November 2012 - 17:14.


#365 toroRosso

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:26

It is what it is :)

#366 Cenotaph

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:26

:up:

#367 Jovanotti

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:31

I hear you ali, but on the other side of what you described are the people who want to hype Vettels race to the drive of the decade (see this German article for example, quote: "He drove like a tenfold champion") although it can be shown very objectively, as already done in this very thread, that he gained more than half a minute on the leaders by SC's alone, tyre advantage and race set-up not accounted). I guess that's what irritates many people. One extreme leads to the other I'm afraid.

#368 apoka

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:34

I finally worked through this thread. [...]

:up:


#369 apoka

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:56

I hear you ali, but on the other side of what you described are the people who want to hype Vettels race to the drive of the decade (see this German article for example, quote: "He drove like a tenfold champion") although it can be shown very objectively, as already done in this very thread, that he gained more than half a minute on the leaders by SC's alone, tyre advantage and race set-up not accounted). I guess that's what irritates many people. One extreme leads to the other I'm afraid.

Yes, exaggerated articles aren't good either. Publishers prefer such kind of headlines. But I think there was also quite a few negative articles, comments from Hamilton/Alonso and especially in the forum before and after the race. You probably wouldn't have this for other drivers after 4 wins in a row and a podium.

By the way, the SC advantage was not really 30 seconds - that was only on the respective leaders (Hamilton for SC1, Kimi for SC2) and if you completely discard the first few laps after the SC (which are terribly slow when you are at the back - otherwise everyone would pit). Basically, he didn't win time in SC1 (only fresher tyres) and if you take Button as reference, then its 13 seconds for SC2 (everyone gains on the leader in SC, not only Vettel - so you have to compare to those). He was already P4 at that time. When you take everything into account, it is not unlikely that Vettel would have ended up P4 without SCs and possibly (although much harder to calculate) P5/P6 without SCs and crashes.

I'm not denying that he had luck during the race, but just calculating what could have happened without SCs. If you take the whole weekend into account, he wasn't that lucky with brake problems and penalty - without that he would likely have gained points over Alonso instead of losing 3 points.

I just want to mention this again before "Vettel gained 30 seconds because of SCs" becomes a myth used every time when referring to this race.


#370 BenettonB192

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:57

Great comment ali_M! And from an Alonso fan. Very refreshing!

I hear you ali, but on the other side of what you described are the people who want to hype Vettels race to the drive of the decade (see this German article for example, quote: "He drove like a tenfold champion") although it can be shown very objectively, as already done in this very thread, that he gained more than half a minute on the leaders by SC's alone, tyre advantage and race set-up not accounted). I guess that's what irritates many people. One extreme leads to the other I'm afraid.


Stuck just like Lauda always hangs his flag after the wind. I remember a few weeks ago he was very critical of Vettel and praised Alonso above the clouds in his blog.

#371 SpaMaster

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 18:01

ali_M: :up: :)

#372 Jovanotti

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 18:04

I just want to mention this again before "Vettel gained 30 seconds because of SCs" becomes a myth used every time when referring to this race.

Yeah fair enough, I didn't really go into details and just remembered the 34 seconds to the respective leader someone has calculated. Of course it took a very good drive from him, too.

#373 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 21:48

I hear you ali, but on the other side of what you described are the people who want to hype Vettels race to the drive of the decade (see this German article for example, quote: "He drove like a tenfold champion") although it can be shown very objectively, as already done in this very thread, that he gained more than half a minute on the leaders by SC's alone, tyre advantage and race set-up not accounted). I guess that's what irritates many people. One extreme leads to the other I'm afraid.


Can you actually read German??

If yes, you must have missed several passage such as:

aber nicht ganz perfekte Fahrt

vollkommen fehlerfrei sei die Fahrt des Titelverteidigers aber keineswegs gewesen. "Er hat ein paar Flüchtigkeitsfehler gemacht,

Allerdings muss man zugeben, dass die beiden Safety-Car-Phasen ein bisschen geholfen haben."

BTW, Stuck is a nutter, but in a likable way.

#374 hmm

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 22:09

Here is a table I have calculated from the autosport.com gap chart how Vettels race went.

For each lap there is the lap number, Vettels position, gap to the leader, the driver who is in front of Vettel and the gap to him (i.e. after first lap Vettel was 1.0s behind Senna) and then the drivers he overtook on that lap. I have tried to put parenthesis to those drivers that Vettel overtook because of pit stop or some other problem but they might not be 100% accurate.

1. 20. +15.1 behind: SEN +1.0 passes: (DLR) (GRO) (DIR)
2. 18. +16.8 behind: SEN +0.5 passes: KAR (ROS)
3. 16. +19.4 behind: PET +0.4 passes: SEN PIC
4. 14. +21.0 behind: KOV +3.8 passes: GLO PET
5. 14. +21.7 behind: KOV +2.2 passes:
6. 14. +22.5 behind: KOV +0.7 passes:
7. 13. +23.2 behind: VER +3.6 passes: KOV
8. 13. +23.8 behind: VER +2.5 passes:
9. 12. +24.9 behind: RIC +5.1 passes: VER
10. 12. +9.7 behind: RIC +0.8 passes:
11. 12. +9.6 behind: RIC +1.0 passes:
12. 12. +10.3 behind: RIC +1.0 passes:
13. 11. +8.2 behind: MSC +0.8 passes: RIC
14. 21. +12.9 behind: DIR +0.4 passes:
15. 19. +16.6 behind: GRO +0.4 passes: DIR DLR
16. 17. +19.7 behind: PET +0.5 passes: GRO PIC
17. 17. +23.1 behind: PET +0.3 passes:
18. 15. +23.8 behind: VER +3.1 passes: GLO PET
19. 15. +24.5 behind: VER +0.5 passes:
20. 12. +21.2 behind: SEN +0.7 passes: KOV VER
21. 11. +21.7 behind: RIC +2.8 passes: SEN
22. 11. +22.1 behind: RIC +1.3 passes:
23. 10. +22.2 behind: MSC +2.3 passes: RIC
24. 10. +22.4 behind: MSC +0.7 passes:
25. 8. +22.6 behind: WEB +4.4 passes: (KOB) MSC
26. 7. +22.8 behind: WEB +3.3 passes: (MAS)
27. 7. +22.7 behind: WEB +2.9 passes:
28. 7. +22.8 behind: WEB +2.5 passes:
29. 5. +23.1 behind: WEB +0.6 passes: (MAL) (ALO)
30. 3. +23.3 behind: PER +0.9 passes: (WEB) (BUT)
31. 2. +20.6 behind: RAI +20.6 passes: (PER)
32. 2. +1.5 behind: RAI +1.5 passes:
33. 2. +2.1 behind: RAI +2.1 passes:
34. 2. +2.8 behind: RAI +2.8 passes:
35. 2. +3.6 behind: RAI +3.6 passes:
36. 2. +4.1 behind: RAI +4.1 passes:
37. 2. +6.4 behind: RAI +6.4 passes:
38. 4. +24.4 behind: BUT +14.6 passes:
39. 4. +29.9 behind: BUT +14.4 passes:
40. 4. +3.3 behind: BUT +1.1 passes:
41. 4. +2.2 behind: BUT +1.1 passes:
42. 4. +2.1 behind: BUT +0.5 passes:
43. 4. +3.4 behind: BUT +0.6 passes:
44. 4. +4.4 behind: BUT +0.7 passes:
45. 4. +4.5 behind: BUT +0.5 passes:
46. 4. +5.4 behind: BUT +0.9 passes:
47. 4. +5.5 behind: BUT +0.9 passes:
48. 4. +5.9 behind: BUT +0.9 passes:
49. 4. +6.2 behind: BUT +0.9 passes:
50. 4. +6.5 behind: BUT +1.0 passes:
51. 4. +6.1 behind: BUT +1.0 passes:
52. 3. +5.9 behind: ALO +4.4 passes: BUT
53. 3. +5.7 behind: ALO +4.6 passes:
54. 3. +5.1 behind: ALO +3.9 passes:
55. 3. +4.2 behind: ALO +3.3 passes:



#375 Cesc

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:00

I just want to mention this again before "Vettel gained 30 seconds because of SCs" becomes a myth used every time when referring to this race.


Mmmm... welll. The thing is that in one way or the other, HE did won time versus his rivals with the SC. Look at the times lap per lap. And I don´t agree that you cannot use the leader reference. In fact, it is the ONLY valuable reference for everyone. In the second SC alone, he got reduced the difference to Button from about 20 to 1 sec...

I can´t see why you call it a myth when I really struggle to see why he didn´t won quite a lot of time with the two SCs (on the other hand, that´s always like this, Alonso also got benefited from it as well the second SC when his gap to Kimi got reduced from 9 to 1).

And again, we should "consider" what it means unlucky when you have a technical failure. If that is bad luck, having the fastest car is "luck"? So I don´t see why should we see the problem during qualifying as "bad luck". I thing technical issues are also part of the work of the team and they are more fragile in that sense, but to me is not "bad luck".

Edited by Cesc, 08 November 2012 - 07:06.


#376 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:10

Can you actually read German??

I'm a native speaker, so yes. I didn't miss the bits you quoted, but my point still stands: people get annoyed if articles with titles like "tenfold champion" pop up after a very good, but not sensational drive.

#377 bourbon

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:36

I'm a native speaker, so yes. I didn't miss the bits you quoted, but my point still stands: people get annoyed if articles with titles like "tenfold champion" pop up after a very good, but not sensational drive.


I would say it was a sensational drive by Seb in his RB8. He leveled up "21" - not all with dynamic passes, but that never happens anyway. Why there would suddenly need to be 23 difficult to pass cars on the track - a historical 1st - for Vettel's drive to be sensational, I do not know. Fortuitous events do not detract from the sensational nature of the drive, they add to the highlights, unless one doesn't wish to see the progress from pits to podium. Otherwise, it is quite thrilling.

#378 mnmracer

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:15

Mmmm... welll. The thing is that in one way or the other, HE did won time versus his rivals with the SC. Look at the times lap per lap. And I don´t agree that you cannot use the leader reference. In fact, it is the ONLY valuable reference for everyone. In the second SC alone, he got reduced the difference to Button from about 20 to 1 sec...

I can´t see why you call it a myth when I really struggle to see why he didn´t won quite a lot of time with the two SCs (on the other hand, that´s always like this, Alonso also got benefited from it as well the second SC when his gap to Kimi got reduced from 9 to 1).

And again, we should "consider" what it means unlucky when you have a technical failure. If that is bad luck, having the fastest car is "luck"? So I don´t see why should we see the problem during qualifying as "bad luck". I thing technical issues are also part of the work of the team and they are more fragile in that sense, but to me is not "bad luck".

If not for the first safety car:
* he would not have damaged his front wing to the point it needed replacement.
* he would not have had to go in to change his front wing.
* he would not have dropped to the back of the field again.
* he would have kept setting times similar to the frontrunners, while their soft tires were starting to drop off earlier.
* he would have made a stop in lap 40 for a late run on fresh softs (the only set he had left, which he now had to put on in lap 15)

Now, dropping all the ** like “many drivers DNFing ahead of him” (1) and “all the drivers pitting ahead of him” (4), how was Vettel lucky with that first safety car? The only luck Vettel arguably had was the second safety car which put him right behind Button, but considering his pace over Button before the first SC ruined his strategy, there’s a good chance he would have caught him without the safety cars.

#379 karlth

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:01

I would say it was a sensational drive by Seb in his RB8. He leveled up "21" - not all with dynamic passes, but that never happens anyway. Why there would suddenly need to be 23 difficult to pass cars on the track - a historical 1st - for Vettel's drive to be sensational, I do not know. Fortuitous events do not detract from the sensational nature of the drive ...


Then you must really be "super sensationalised" by the Austrian Grand Prix in 1999. A drive from last into a podium position, and unlike Vettel the driver managed it in a damaged car without the help of safety cars or DRS. Do you think that was greater drive?

Reading some of the posts makes one think that some posters (and many poor journalists) started following F1 this year, constantly ignoring the car at the driver's disposal and the relative quality of the teammate. We saw it with Schumacher 10 years ago and we are seeing it again now with Vettel.

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#380 H2H

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:01

I'm a native speaker, so yes. I didn't miss the bits you quoted, but my point still stands: people get annoyed if articles with titles like "tenfold champion" pop up after a very good, but not sensational drive.


Just for the interest what was a recent sensational drive, to have butter with the fishes, as the North Germans say?

1. 20. +15.1 behind: SEN +1.0 passes: (DLR) (GRO) (DIR)
2. 18. +16.8 behind: SEN +0.5 passes: KAR (ROS)
3. 16. +19.4 behind: PET +0.4 passes: SEN PIC
4. 14. +21.0 behind: KOV +3.8 passes: GLO PET
5. 14. +21.7 behind: KOV +2.2 passes:
6. 14. +22.5 behind: KOV +0.7 passes:
7. 13. +23.2 behind: VER +3.6 passes: KOV
8. 13. +23.8 behind: VER +2.5 passes:
9. 12. +24.9 behind: RIC +5.1 passes: VER


Wasn't 11th after passing Verne? Anyway it is quite interesting that he lost so little time while overtaking his way close the points. Only 10 sec lost to Hamilton driving in clean air in the fastest car of Q3 after the first lap while battling through so many cars. It also shows a much time you lose starting from the pit lane.

Edited by H2H, 08 November 2012 - 10:02.


#381 Cesc

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:30

I would say it was a sensational drive by Seb in his RB8. He leveled up "21" - not all with dynamic passes, but that never happens anyway. Why there would suddenly need to be 23 difficult to pass cars on the track - a historical 1st - for Vettel's drive to be sensational, I do not know. Fortuitous events do not detract from the sensational nature of the drive, they add to the highlights, unless one doesn't wish to see the progress from pits to podium. Otherwise, it is quite thrilling.


Again, Alonso recovered 18 positions in monaco in 2010, without DRS and in such a track. He did fine, but that was not a sensational drive, simply did the right moves over the slower cars and had a different strategy + a SC in the middle. That made the business. A race without SC and no DNF in front would have left Vettel around P6 or P7 in Abu Dahbi, but I think he has had better races this year, SPA is the one I liked most.

Edited by Cesc, 08 November 2012 - 10:31.


#382 choyothe

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:38

I hear you ali, but on the other side of what you described are the people who want to hype Vettels race to the drive of the decade (see this German article for example, quote: "He drove like a tenfold champion") although it can be shown very objectively, as already done in this very thread, that he gained more than half a minute on the leaders by SC's alone, tyre advantage and race set-up not accounted). I guess that's what irritates many people. One extreme leads to the other I'm afraid.


That is true as well, Vettel's drive wasn't close to "the drive of the decade", but I have seen very little of overpraising or -hyping for this performance, if anything I've seen a lot of dismissing his performance as a whole to luck. Contrast this to Alonso (I choose him bc he seems to be the best example nowadays) who apparently can do no wrong and his every drive is epic beyond belief. I'm actually pretty surprised he doesn't have 170 points in the Autosport driver ratings.  ;)

#383 choyothe

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:42

Again, Alonso recovered 18 positions in monaco in 2010, without DRS and in such a track. He did fine, but that was not a sensational drive, simply did the right moves over the slower cars and had a different strategy + a SC in the middle. That made the business. A race without SC and no DNF in front would have left Vettel around P6 or P7 in Abu Dahbi, but I think he has had better races this year, SPA is the one I liked most.


With the retirements happening I still can't see how Vettel doesn't get himself up to 4th without SCs. At least there is no proof that he would have been more likely to finish 6th or 7th than 4th.

It's arguable whether Spa was better, I personally have them pretty equal. Both definitely among the very short list to the driver of the year.

#384 Cesc

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:53

With the retirements happening I still can't see how Vettel doesn't get himself up to 4th without SCs. At least there is no proof that he would have been more likely to finish 6th or 7th than 4th.

It's arguable whether Spa was better, I personally have them pretty equal. Both definitely among the very short list to the driver of the year.


The good thing about SPA is that he didn´t have the fastest car that day and had a more difficult task with many 'midfield' cars classified in front of him, quite like what it is happening to Alonso¡ in many races this year.


#385 choyothe

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:11

The good thing about SPA is that he didn´t have the fastest car that day and had a more difficult task with many 'midfield' cars classified in front of him, quite like what it is happening to Alonso¡ in many races this year.


The difference between him there and Alonso is that he had a despicable top speed and had to overtake the field from the outside into the Bus Stop, whereas Alonso generally has one of the fastest cars on the straights and probably the fastest of the top group.

#386 mnmracer

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 13:02

Again, Alonso recovered 18 positions in monaco in 2010, without DRS and in such a track. He did fine, but that was not a sensational drive, simply did the right moves over the slower cars and had a different strategy + a SC in the middle. That made the business. A race without SC and no DNF in front would have left Vettel around P6 or P7 in Abu Dahbi, but I think he has had better races this year, SPA is the one I liked most.

There's a massive difference between Monaco 2010 and Abu Dhabi 2012. Alonso overtook just 5 cars on-track: Bruno Senna (HRT), Karun Chandhok (HRT), Lucas di Grassi (Virgin), Timo Glock (Virgin) and Heikki Kovalainen (Lotus). Vettel overtoke twice as many backmarkers AND twice as many non-backmarkers in Abu Dhabi.

#387 MrFondue

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 13:09

Then you must really be "super sensationalised" by the Austrian Grand Prix in 1999. A drive from last into a podium position, and unlike Vettel the driver managed it in a damaged car without the help of safety cars or DRS. Do you think that was greater drive?

Reading some of the posts makes one think that some posters (and many poor journalists) started following F1 this year, constantly ignoring the car at the driver's disposal and the relative quality of the teammate. We saw it with Schumacher 10 years ago and we are seeing it again now with Vettel.


Reading your posts makes me think you're a disappointed fan of another driver...

#388 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 13:30

Then you must really be "super sensationalised" by the Austrian Grand Prix in 1999. A drive from last into a podium position, and unlike Vettel the driver managed it in a damaged car without the help of safety cars or DRS. Do you think that was greater drive?


Why would he?

  • Less cars on the track
  • McLaren of 1999 class of the entire F1 field
  • Schumi out with a broken leg :p

Still, a great effort which no one would try to diminish.

#389 karlth

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 13:33

There's a massive difference between Monaco 2010 and Abu Dhabi 2012. Alonso overtook just 5 cars on-track: Bruno Senna (HRT), Karun Chandhok (HRT), Lucas di Grassi (Virgin), Timo Glock (Virgin) and Heikki Kovalainen (Lotus). Vettel overtoke twice as many backmarkers AND twice as many non-backmarkers in Abu Dhabi.


Are you for real comparing overtaking in Monaco to overtaking in Abu Dhabi with DRS? :D

#390 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 13:56

Just for the interest what was a recent sensational drive, to have butter with the fishes, as the North Germans say?

Didn't know that expression :D I know you will criticize everything I'll come up with, and I'm hesitant about labelling a race as "sensational", but I can think of a few that I'd rate higher than Sebs last race: as already mentioned Vettel in Spa, Alonso in Valencia or Räikkönens race in Budapest were striking performances for me.

#391 MrFondue

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:00

Are you for real comparing overtaking in Monaco to overtaking in Abu Dhabi with DRS? :D


You can certainly do that. We are talking about HRT, Virgin and Lotus in their first races ever.

#392 karlth

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:05

Reading your posts makes me think you're a disappointed fan of another driver...


And I think your personal opinion of me has little to do with Vettel's performance.

#393 karlth

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:07

You can certainly do that.


No you can't. Overtaking with DRS in Abu Dhabi, especially against backmarkers and the slower half of the grid, consist of simply driving past them.

#394 MrFondue

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:11

And I think your personal opinion of me has little to do with Vettel's performance.


About as much as your personal opinion of some of the posters.

#395 karlth

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:19

About as much as your personal opinion of some of the posters.


Send a PM to the moderators or me personally if you have any specific personal issues you'd like to complain about or discuss.

#396 MrFondue

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:29

Send a PM to the moderators or me personally if you have any specific personal issues you'd like to complain about or discuss.


I'd rather not. I'm just gonna end it here by admitting you're right as always.

#397 sopa

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:42

Then you must really be "super sensationalised" by the Austrian Grand Prix in 1999. A drive from last into a podium position, and unlike Vettel the driver managed it in a damaged car without the help of safety cars or DRS. Do you think that was greater drive?

Reading some of the posts makes one think that some posters (and many poor journalists) started following F1 this year, constantly ignoring the car at the driver's disposal and the relative quality of the teammate. We saw it with Schumacher 10 years ago and we are seeing it again now with Vettel.


For starters, Hakkinen in 99 Austria and Vettel in 12 Abu Dhabi were both very good drives. Maybe not sensational, but nothing "average" about them.

Ignoring the car and quality of team-mate? Hamilton said McLaren had a dominant car at ABD, so there is nothing to ignore - Vettel had a good car this race, but not dominant. Quality of team-mate is very good - for instance Webber is a better qualifier than Button or Massa. Only a few drivers could have put those Jags and Williamses on the front row.

#398 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:54

I'd rather not. I'm just gonna end it here by admitting you're right as always.


It´s the best. It´s impossible to win against someone that will go as low as blatantly lying -or failing to understand- about the consequences of the safety cars in someone´s race, lying -or failing to rate remotely close to reality- about performances of cars of a decade ago just to diminish someone´s credit, and a long etcetera of crazy statements about cars/races/drivers (like that it´s impossible to compare two teams potential when they are in different tyres) just to make something look bad. :rolleyes:

Just take pleasure from the fact you can see him struggling like hell trying to diminish someone, because that means he KNOWS deep inside how good that guy is. Otherwise he wouldn´t lose his time and credibility to make him look bad.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 08 November 2012 - 14:56.


#399 H2H

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:27

Didn't know that expression :D I know you will criticize everything I'll come up with, and I'm hesitant about labelling a race as "sensational", but I can think of a few that I'd rate higher than Sebs last race: as already mentioned Vettel in Spa, Alonso in Valencia or Räikkönens race in Budapest were striking performances for me.


The race was certainly no mowed maedow ('gmahnte Wiesn') as some South Germans might say. The choice of races you rate higher is interesting, I don't agree with some but it is good to see some examples.

Mikas drive impressed me very much at that time but what amazes me today looking back are the huge performance gaps in that period. The whole field, maybe apart form the 2-3 teams is now incredibly close together and it is much harder to have such a performance advantage compared to a midfield car.



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#400 prty

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:24

This paragraph by Adam Cooper sums it up:

A remarkable performance then, but one in which luck also played a major part. Some things may have worked against him, but overall the pieces fell into place, and it's intriguing that the only top-10 qualifiers he physically passed on track were Grosjean and Button, although he was set to slip by Webber when the sister Red Bull pitted. Had it been a dull, processional race with 24 cars at the flag, he would not have got close to third place