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List of Hamilton's Lost 2012 Points [split]


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#151 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:08

Ergo, you are making an assumption and a false one at that. You're reading between the lines and seeing what you want to see.

  • Nowhere in the first post or in Buttoneer's subsequent post about the split does it mention luck.
  • Rocket's argument is that Hamilton's malfunctions are down to his driving.
  • Asking Rocket to explain his reasoning is NOT the same as saying "it's down to bad luck". If he fails to explain his reasoning in a convincing manner, then all we can do his discount his argument, nothing more. Which leaves room for another hypothesis. Incompetence, manufacturing errors, and anything else that is outside of Hamilton's control.

The only person who is saying that "if it's not down to Hamilton, it's bad luck" is you.


If it's outside his control it's bad luck for him, at least that's the paradigm Lewis' fans have been using so far this season. So no, I'm not the only one saying that, that is what Lewis' fans have been saying all season.

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#152 oligc94

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:08

Article from James Allen on this subject:

http://forums.autosp...=...=2&t=176952

He puts an estimated total of lost points at 110!

#153 skidmarks

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:36

If it's outside his control it's bad luck for him, at least that's the paradigm Lewis' fans have been using so far this season. So no, I'm not the only one saying that, that is what Lewis' fans have been saying all season.


So now it's other people saying this, not me. If this is the case, what exactly is the problem with asking somebody to justify their reasoning in a convincing manner? This is not an unreasonable thing to ask of somebody who makes such a bold claim.

Eliminating Hamilton as the cause of his mechanical issues is not the same as saying it's down to "bad luck". And if other say that this is the definition of bad luck, so what? Why the problem with that? You're arguing metaphysics at that point and that adds nothing to the discussion. It's six and half a dozen as far as I'm concerned.

I think the real problem here, is that if we look at the points Hamilton has lost through no fault of his own (assuming that he's not a "car breaker") it puts him in a much more positive light, than his performances already have. Even if we ignore the points lost to bad pit stops, collisions and getting the setup wrong; it's still rather astounding that he could have lost so many to other factors.

And here is what I believe, is one of the real issues from some; if we look at the points lost to malfunctions and team errors when a win looked extremely likely; it makes his team mate's performance this year, seem all the more lacking. And that can't be an easy thing to admit to.

#154 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:20

I think the real problem here, is that if we look at the points Hamilton has lost through no fault of his own (assuming that he's not a "car breaker") it puts him in a much more positive light, than his performances already have. Even if we ignore the points lost to bad pit stops, collisions and getting the setup wrong; it's still rather astounding that he could have lost so many to other factors.

I agree with this part of your post because it encapsulates the only really sensible argument. The attempt to attribute numbers is (if you'll padon the pun) a pointless exercise. It is an attempt to elevate Hamilton in the eyes of other posters who might ally themselves to a different driver and make him their equal or better using an empirical measurement. As 'proof' of his quality. If you have watched and enjoyed Hamilton you will have seen his qualities and for you personally (and for many others who will not admit it too) he has provided entertainment and thrills all through the season. If someone cannot see his quality, maybe they are not worth convincing? However, when you add points to the argument you add points of vulnerability; people start picking over the minutae, pointing out that the Valencia assessment is bollocks or that a driver who doesn't stop on his marks is as responsible for a slow pitstop as the right rear gun man, or indeed that all those gearbox issues can't possibly be coincidental because it's so statistically significant etc etc.

You will also have to contend with all the counter claims from fans of other drivers whose cars failed or whose team was slow and who want an equal share of the fantasy points table. In fact, I'd love to see equivalent lists for all drivers and add up the fantasy points for the season. How many race winners would we have?

If the original point was that Lewis has had mechanical failures from the lead, bad pit stop etc as you have set it out, I doubt there would be many disagreements.

#155 maverick69

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:00

James Allen's take on it:

"Although the nature of F1 makes it impossible to quantify exactly how many points have been squandered through car failures and team mistakes, the below list of examples and considered estimations on likely finishing positions and points losses nonetheless serves as an illustration of how Hamilton’s overall points tally has been severely compromised:

China – Qualifies second but started seventh due to gearbox change penalty. Finishes third. Estimated points loss: three

Bahrain – Running third but following two slow pit stops ends up eighth. Estimated points loss: Eight to ten

Spain – Qualifies on pole but demoted to back of the grid for McLaren fuel infringement. Finishes eighth. Estimated points loss: 21

Monaco – Running third but suffers slow pit stop and loses positions to first Alonso, who stops a lap later, and the even later-stopping Vettel. Finishes fifth. Estimated points loss: Two to five

Europe – Slow pit stop when running third drops him to sixth and behind ultimate race winner Alonso. Spun out on final lap from third after collision with Pastor Maldonado while struggling with tyre wear. Estimated points loss: 15 (based on likely position ahead of Maldonado in closing stages without pit-stop delay)

Singapore – Running first when gearbox fails. Result: DNF. Estimated points loss: 25

Korea – Rear anti-roll bar failure early in race plays havoc with tyre wear. Drops down order from fourth. Result: 10th. Estimated points loss: 11

Abu Dhabi – Leading the race by three seconds when fuel pressure problem grounds car to a halt. Result: DNF. Estimated points loss: 25

Estimated total of lost points: 110 points"


http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

As you can see...... That's just a sample......

Edited by maverick69, 06 November 2012 - 11:07.


#156 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:08

James Allen's take on it

He forgot to include Germany

#157 maverick69

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:09

He forgot to include Germany


Like I say: It's just a sample.

#158 Kvothe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:13

He forgot to include Germany


He forgot the bad pitstops in Malaysia, Grosjean in Spa, rear damper failure in Japan and possibly the safety car in Aus as well, but I think his point has been made.

Edited by Kvothe, 06 November 2012 - 11:13.


#159 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:28

Is he also counting other drivers lost points in his fantasy? James Allen, what a hack.

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#160 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:30

Pos Driver Points
1 Sebastian Vettel 255
2 Fernando Alonso 245
3 Kimi Räikkönen 198
4 Mark Webber 167
5 Lewis Hamilton 165
6 Jenson Button 153
7 Felipe Massa 95
8 Nico Rosberg 93
9 Romain Grosjean 90
10 Sergio Pérez 66
11 Kamui Kobayashi 58
12 Nico Hülkenberg 49
13 Paul Di Resta 46
14 Pastor Maldonado 43
15 Michael Schumacher 43
16 Bruno Senna 30
17 Jean-Eric Vergne 12
18 Daniel Ricciardo 10
19 Timo Glock 0
20 Heikki Kovalainen 0
21 Vitaly Petrov 0
22 Jérôme D'Ambrosio 0
23 Charles Pic 0
24 Narain Karthikeyan 0
25 Pedro de la Rosa 0

There folks -- all there is to it.

Lewis has driven very well this season as have many more. Please try to respect the nature of the sport, would be so much more constructive.


#161 Realyn

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:31

James Allen's take on it:

"Although the nature of F1 makes it impossible to quantify exactly how many points have been squandered through car failures and team mistakes, the below list of examples and considered estimations on likely finishing positions and points losses nonetheless serves as an illustration of how Hamilton’s overall points tally has been severely compromised:

China – Qualifies second but started seventh due to gearbox change penalty. Finishes third. Estimated points loss: three

Bahrain – Running third but following two slow pit stops ends up eighth. Estimated points loss: Eight to ten

Spain – Qualifies on pole but demoted to back of the grid for McLaren fuel infringement. Finishes eighth. Estimated points loss: 21

Monaco – Running third but suffers slow pit stop and loses positions to first Alonso, who stops a lap later, and the even later-stopping Vettel. Finishes fifth. Estimated points loss: Two to five

Europe – Slow pit stop when running third drops him to sixth and behind ultimate race winner Alonso. Spun out on final lap from third after collision with Pastor Maldonado while struggling with tyre wear. Estimated points loss: 15 (based on likely position ahead of Maldonado in closing stages without pit-stop delay)

Singapore – Running first when gearbox fails. Result: DNF. Estimated points loss: 25

Korea – Rear anti-roll bar failure early in race plays havoc with tyre wear. Drops down order from fourth. Result: 10th. Estimated points loss: 11

Abu Dhabi – Leading the race by three seconds when fuel pressure problem grounds car to a halt. Result: DNF. Estimated points loss: 25

Estimated total of lost points: 110 points"


http://www.jamesalle...lewis-hamilton/

As you can see...... That's just a sample......


Now let's do the same with Abu Dhabi for Alo and Vet.

ALO - slow car, if he had a faster car, he would have won the race - Result: 2nd. Estimated points loss: 7
VET - fuel hickup. Result 3th. Estimated points loss: 10

look. we got 3 people, all of them first!

Edited by Realyn, 06 November 2012 - 11:32.


#162 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:34

I can't understand how people fail to grasp the fact that this is only from Hamilton's point of view. Yes it is bias but it's own nature is bias. Everybody knows about Vettel's issues and Alonso's, but they aren't relevant at the moment.

#163 Gareth

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:38

He forgot the bad pitstops in Malaysia, Grosjean in Spa, rear damper failure in Japan and possibly the safety car in Aus as well, but I think his point has been made.

Germany, Spa and Oz weren't car failure or team mistakes, though. Malaysia likely didn't make a difference given the pace he showed vs Perez and Alonso, IMO.

So only Japan was missed out, and that one is incredibly hard to quantify.

I think the point of Allen's article, in restricting it to team mistakes and car failure, wasn't to look at Hamilton's "luck". The point is rather to demonstrate what McLaren could have achieved this year had they cut out the errors and the unreliability.

Whitmarsh made it clear after this race that they don't do looking backwards, and that makes a lot of sense. But if they do ever glance backwards, McLaren can surely only view 2012 as a chance that they wasted IMO. Having produced their first "quick out of the box" car since 2008 it's a big shame for them that they wasted the opportunity with operational errors and reliability problems.

#164 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:39

I can't understand how people fail to grasp the fact that this is only from Hamilton's point of view. Yes it is bias but it's own nature is bias. Everybody knows about Vettel's issues and Alonso's, but they aren't relevant at the moment.


But they are relevant. You could go back through the years and count everyones misfortunes over the years, and award the WDC to all sorts of unlucky drivers. Its not like Hamilton is the only person this has ever happened to but if you listen to his fanatics they would tell you it is. And i bet some truly believe that.

#165 skyform

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:40

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.


Yeah sure, now it's Lewis the car breaker, like Kimi was the car breaker when he was driving for Mclaren, look at Kimi now, he is the only driver who finished all races so far. It's the car not Lewis!

#166 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:40

I can't understand how people fail to grasp the fact that this is only from Hamilton's point of view.


How can you not realize that there is no Lewis' point of view. It is a competition where results are doled out according to positions one achieves at the end of the race(s). See the table above in my previous post, that is the point of view of Lewis -- and the rest of us.


#167 Kvothe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 11:41

Germany, Spa and Oz weren't car failure or team mistakes, though. Malaysia likely didn't make a difference given the pace he showed vs Perez and Alonso, IMO.

So only Japan was missed out, and that one is incredibly hard to quantify.

I think the point of Allen's article, in restricting it to team mistakes and car failure, wasn't to look at Hamilton's "luck". The point is rather to demonstrate what McLaren could have achieved this year had they cut out the errors and the unreliability.

Whitmarsh made it clear after this race that they don't do looking backwards, and that makes a lot of sense. But if they do ever glance backwards, McLaren can surely only view 2012 as a chance that they wasted IMO. Having produced their first "quick out of the box" car since 2008 it's a big shame for them that they wasted the opportunity with operational errors and reliability problems.


Fair enough.

#168 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:03

So now it's other people saying this, not me. If this is the case, what exactly is the problem with asking somebody to justify their reasoning in a convincing manner? This is not an unreasonable thing to ask of somebody who makes such a bold claim.

Eliminating Hamilton as the cause of his mechanical issues is not the same as saying it's down to "bad luck". And if other say that this is the definition of bad luck, so what? Why the problem with that? You're arguing metaphysics at that point and that adds nothing to the discussion. It's six and half a dozen as far as I'm concerned.

I think the real problem here, is that if we look at the points Hamilton has lost through no fault of his own (assuming that he's not a "car breaker") it puts him in a much more positive light, than his performances already have. Even if we ignore the points lost to bad pit stops, collisions and getting the setup wrong; it's still rather astounding that he could have lost so many to other factors.

And here is what I believe, is one of the real issues from some; if we look at the points lost to malfunctions and team errors when a win looked extremely likely; it makes his team mate's performance this year, seem all the more lacking. And that can't be an easy thing to admit to.


Ok, it's a different discussion, but I'll go with you.

Firstly, why does he seem to have more malfunctions and team errors in your eyes? Is that just luck, or sabotage, or poor relationships.

Secondly, if you are going to separate Lewis from the team like that, saying it's their job to provide him with a fast reliable car and his job to drive it, then you have to apply the same to Jenson. He as well has had bad pit stops, bad strategies, malfunctions etc, but mainly what the team has got wrong with Jenson, is the setup, the failure to get on top of the tyre issue. Given the pace he has shown when they got it right then I think it's fair to say he would have got a stack more points if they had got it right as often as they seemed to with Lewis. Ofc people will argue that it's the drivers job to get the setup right, and generally I would agree with them, but if we are divorcing the driver from the team, then it's actually the drivers job to provide feedback and the engineers job to get the setup right.



#169 Burtros

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:10

I can't understand how people fail to grasp the fact that this is only from Hamilton's point of view. Yes it is bias but it's own nature is bias. Everybody knows about Vettel's issues and Alonso's, but they aren't relevant at the moment.


How are they not relevant? This whole thread is based upon your conclusions which are based on what is largely a biased and overly optimisitc look at this season anyway.

You give Hamilton a win in Valencia - Vettel should have been given the win and the points there accoring to your own system.

How can it NOT be relevent?

Its a bit like your use of the word definitive on the first line..... its just absolutley ridiculous.

Allen has probably done what you wanted to do, but with from an impartial stand point. Hes also concluded what we all knew, Hamiltons lost a lot of points this year for various reasons.

#170 skyform

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:17

People lets be honest Hamilton suffered almost every possible punishment!

- crap pit stops and strategys which cost him many places and points

- 5 grid penalty in China

- DQ from the pole in Spain

- puncture in Germany

- was taken out of the race in Valencia and Spa by other drivers

- drove two races (Japan and Korea) in a row with a damaged car

- his car broke down two times in the lead Singapore and Abu Dhabi

Of course it would be stupid to give him back all the points, every driver gets some of this problems during the year but getting as many as Lewis is unlucky. If he wouldn't have at least half of this problems he would be WC for sure and if you only give him points from Singapore and Abu Dhabi he would already have a shot at the WC and that's just two problems he had, out of what, like 12-14?

You have to admit he was feaking unlucky but drove just as good as Alonso and Vettel. It was one of his best drives through a whole season like Alonso's and yet he is only 5th in the championship.

People who are saying that Vettel, Alonso, Button... were just as unlucky, come on guys be freaking serious. :rolleyes:

Edited by skyform, 06 November 2012 - 12:20.


#171 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:28

Of course it would be stupid to give him back all the points, every driver gets some of this problems during the year but getting as many as Lewis is unlucky. If he wouldn't have at least half of this problems he would be WC for sure and if you only give him points from Singapore and Abu Dhabi he would already have a shot at the WC and that's just two problems he had, out of what, like 12-14?

You have to admit he was feaking unlucky but drove just as good as Alonso and Vettel. It was one of his best drives through a whole season like Alonso's and yet he is only 5th in the championship.

People who are saying that Vettel, Alonso, Button... were just as unlucky, come on guys be freaking serious. :rolleyes:


I can appreciate your faith in the unknown, but really, here is the thing: McLaren has always had reliability issues when their car is a rocket-ship. It is a trade-off that they take a gamble on. This season it did not work out.

I cannot emphasize enough to all of you who feel let down by Lewis' season, that he has done an excellent job -- as has many more drivers -- and motorsport being what it is.... stuff happens.

All this speculation is almost diminishing the very work Lewis has put up this year, he does not need this -- as it is silly and utterly futile in the end.


#172 eric2610

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:29

Interesting that Hamilton Fanboys always give Hamilton the Full points of Valencia if they talk about bad luck. But don't see that Vettel was leading the race until the alternator died.

Clearly Hamilton has had misfortune this season, but others like Schumacher or Vettel or Button have had misfortune too.

But by analysing Alonsos result this year I would say one can see how a really good driver can avoid having misfortune. Alonso started the season with a really crappy car, which is actually really the worst that can happen. But he managed to deliver. He and Ferrari focused in what was important and delivered results. Hamilton does not seem to have the authority to get the team to work as it should, and that is what makes a driver great. Schumacher got Ferrari to work, Alonso got Ferrari to work. Vettel has everybody in his Team working for himself. But Hamilton is not able to get his team to work. It did not work in 2007, it did not work in 2009, it did not work in 2011 and 2012 as well. So what does that tell us? Hamilton might have speed, but he can't deliver when he must, he can't get his team to deliver when it must. And that is why all his misfortune is deserved, put it all together and he is not better than the results he has so for produced in F1.

#173 skyform

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:42

Interesting that Hamilton Fanboys always give Hamilton the Full points of Valencia if they talk about bad luck. But don't see that Vettel was leading the race until the alternator died.

Clearly Hamilton has had misfortune this season, but others like Schumacher or Vettel or Button have had misfortune too.

But by analysing Alonsos result this year I would say one can see how a really good driver can avoid having misfortune. Alonso started the season with a really crappy car, which is actually really the worst that can happen. But he managed to deliver. He and Ferrari focused in what was important and delivered results. Hamilton does not seem to have the authority to get the team to work as it should, and that is what makes a driver great. Schumacher got Ferrari to work, Alonso got Ferrari to work. Vettel has everybody in his Team working for himself. But Hamilton is not able to get his team to work. It did not work in 2007, it did not work in 2009, it did not work in 2011 and 2012 as well. So what does that tell us? Hamilton might have speed, but he can't deliver when he must, he can't get his team to deliver when it must. And that is why all his misfortune is deserved, put it all together and he is not better than the results he has so for produced in F1.


Man this is really some big crap you have written. He deserved his misfortune wtf, so every other driver who drove for Mclaren also deserved it and couldn't work with the team, right?

Kimi is a great example that this is Mclaren's fault and not Hamilton's. Did you watch F1 when Kimi was at Mclaren, he could be at least two time WC if not for the crap reliability of Mclaren. Once he switched to Ferrari he was immediately WC and this year he is the only driver who finished all races so far and people called him a car breaker in the Mclaren days!

Edited by skyform, 06 November 2012 - 12:50.


#174 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:44

Interesting that Hamilton Fanboys always give Hamilton the Full points of Valencia if they talk about bad luck. But don't see that Vettel was leading the race until the alternator died.

Clearly Hamilton has had misfortune this season, but others like Schumacher or Vettel or Button have had misfortune too.

But by analysing Alonsos result this year I would say one can see how a really good driver can avoid having misfortune. Alonso started the season with a really crappy car, which is actually really the worst that can happen. But he managed to deliver. He and Ferrari focused in what was important and delivered results. Hamilton does not seem to have the authority to get the team to work as it should, and that is what makes a driver great. Schumacher got Ferrari to work, Alonso got Ferrari to work. Vettel has everybody in his Team working for himself. But Hamilton is not able to get his team to work. It did not work in 2007, it did not work in 2009, it did not work in 2011 and 2012 as well. So what does that tell us? Hamilton might have speed, but he can't deliver when he must, he can't get his team to deliver when it must. And that is why all his misfortune is deserved, put it all together and he is not better than the results he has so for produced in F1.


You could argue that this is the problem with having 2 top dogs in the team, Alonso didn't do a great job getting McLaren to work for him for example.

#175 skidmarks

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:46

Firstly, why does he seem to have more malfunctions and team errors in your eyes? Is that just luck, or sabotage, or poor relationships.


I'll add some more options for you. There is also incompetence, inexperience, manufacturing defects and design faults.

The pit stop issues for example, were a mixture of design faults and inexperience from what I can tell. But I'm not counting those as points lost, as the exact impact those stops had, is not clear. It's even questionable to think that they really did have an impact on points scored.

But mechanical failures...that's different, especially when it means that a driver retires from the lead. If you or others think it was driver related, I would like to hear why. And I would like to hear more than statistics that try to justify what seems to me, to be circular reasoning.



Secondly, if you are going to separate Lewis from the team like that, saying it's their job to provide him with a fast reliable car and his job to drive it, then you have to apply the same to Jenson. He as well has had bad pit stops, bad strategies, malfunctions etc, but mainly what the team has got wrong with Jenson, is the setup, the failure to get on top of the tyre issue. Given the pace he has shown when they got it right then I think it's fair to say he would have got a stack more points if they had got it right as often as they seemed to with Lewis. Ofc people will argue that it's the drivers job to get the setup right, and generally I would agree with them, but if we are divorcing the driver from the team, then it's actually the drivers job to provide feedback and the engineers job to get the setup right.


I'm not sure how I'm divorcing the driver from the team here, so I won't comment. I'm actually not sure of the point that you're trying to make, if I'm honest. Either you've not explained your stance clear enough, or I'm not bright enough to grasp what you're saying.

#176 eric2610

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:51

Man this is really some big crap you have written. He deserved his misfortune wtf, so every other driver who drove the unreliable Mclaren also deserved it and can't work with his team, right?

Kimi is a great example that this is Mclaren's fault and not Hamilton's. Did you watch F1 when Kimi was at Mclaren, he could be at least two time WC if not for the crap reliability of Mclaren. Once he switched to Ferrari he was immediately WC and this year he is the only driver who finished all races so far and people called him a car breaker in the Mclaren days!


I did not say he deserves it, I said it is a consequence of the way he works and thinks.

He is a talented driver, but he does not get his act together when it comes to be constant throughout a whole season. Maybe his WDC title 2008 was the worst thing that could have ever happened to him.


Btw I have watched almost every race since 1992.

#177 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 12:55

You could argue that this is the problem with having 2 top dogs in the team, Alonso didn't do a great job getting McLaren to work for him for example.


Uhh.... didn't he finish with same points tally at the end of the season as did his team mate -- all of one point behind the eventual WDC?

One could argue -- pointlessly though -- that Macca lost the WDC due to not making one or the other (driver) clear leader at some stage, but to say Fernando didn't get the car work misses the point completely.

#178 skyform

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:05

I did not say he deserves it, I said it is a consequence of the way he works and thinks.

He is a talented driver, but he does not get his act together when it comes to be constant throughout a whole season. Maybe his WDC title 2008 was the worst thing that could have ever happened to him.


Btw I have watched almost every race since 1992.


What, did you even watch this year? What more could he have done this year, his driving was nearly perfect, it was always the team that let him down.


#179 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:12

James Allen gave Alonso the win in Valencia. I give Hamilton the win (was Hamilton not ahead of Alonso after the pit stops? And sorry but he 100% wouldn't have pushed as hard as he would have from 3rd) and everybody jumps on my back? JA also didn't take into account other people's problems, BECAUSE WE ARE LOOKING AT IT FROM HAMILTON'S POINT OF VIEW. Him and McLaren have ZERO effect on Red Bull's alternators. It's funny that James Allen forgot to include Germany, Malaysia, Spa, Japan and fell 21 points short of my prediction, yet I am an "over optimistic fanboy." James Allen gave Lewis 3rd in Monaco for christ sake, that's over optimistic. Some people are clouded by their pre-judgements.

Edited by TomNokoe, 06 November 2012 - 13:14.


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#180 Lazy

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:13

Uhh.... didn't he finish with same points tally at the end of the season as did his team mate -- all of one point behind the eventual WDC?

One could argue -- pointlessly though -- that Macca lost the WDC due to not making one or the other (driver) clear leader at some stage, but to say Fernando didn't get the car work misses the point completely.


I meant McLaren the team, not the car.

#181 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:24

"..., BECAUSE WE ARE LOOKING AT IT FROM HAMILTON'S POINT OF VIEW....."


Look mate, switching to caps will not change the reality, that there is only one point of view for Hamilton. It is the following: 165 points and 5th place in the WDC standings in 2012.

The rest is idle speculation that Lewis -- all his fans, detractors and those who do not care -- have absolutely no use for. Even the opining of someone called Allen will not change the facts.

Doesn't all of this make you rather depressed? -- I am happy for you to have someone to idolize, if such thing makes you feel more alive, but I do hope that some place you do realize it is all for nothing.

#182 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:27

I meant McLaren the team, not the car.


;-))

Yea, that is quite obvious by all accounts ..... sorry to have misunderstood.

(Ah, the good ol' days, eh?)

#183 Buttoneer

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:42

I'll add some more options for you. There is also incompetence, inexperience, manufacturing defects and design faults.

The pit stop issues for example, were a mixture of design faults and inexperience from what I can tell. But I'm not counting those as points lost, as the exact impact those stops had, is not clear. It's even questionable to think that they really did have an impact on points scored.

But mechanical failures...that's different, especially when it means that a driver retires from the lead. If you or others think it was driver related, I would like to hear why. And I would like to hear more than statistics that try to justify what seems to me, to be circular reasoning.





I'm not sure how I'm divorcing the driver from the team here, so I won't comment. I'm actually not sure of the point that you're trying to make, if I'm honest. Either you've not explained your stance clear enough, or I'm not bright enough to grasp what you're saying.

Unless you're telling us that you think Lewis is incompetent, inexperienced, has manufacturing or design faults then you are separating the two. It's not clear to me how.

#184 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:47

Unless you're telling us that you think Lewis .... has manufacturing or design faults.....


Hahaha -- not sure if you meant it as such, but that is funny. Although I cannot comment on the British manufacturing and design processes....

;-))

#185 robefc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:49

There is a blog where somebody attempted to look at it from everybody's point of view, of course that didn't stop it being slated.

Can't remember the link now, anyone?

#186 Tsarwash

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 13:59

It's ridiculous to even suggest giving the win to Lewis in Valencia and to say that Vettel's retirement is not relevant. If you are going to isolate and highlight failures beyond a drivers control, then you have to do this to all drivers to have any credibility at all. Everybody agrees and accepts that Lewis has been very unlucky and that if he had 'normal' luck, whatever that might be, then he would still be in with a shout of a title shot. What about Webber though ? He seems to have a dose of bad luck every time he sits in the car. His KERS seems to break down every other race.

#187 undersquare

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:12

There is a blog where somebody attempted to look at it from everybody's point of view, of course that didn't stop it being slated.

Can't remember the link now, anyone?

If it's the one I think you mean, it wasn't very good.

It needs quite a lot of work to do it properly. As has been pointed out you have to do it for all the drivers, or none. Sebi does get Valencia for example.

#188 SpaMaster

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:34

Fine call it 18 lost. 51 point lead. Still WDC.

Still Oh Lord..

#189 robefc

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:37

If it's the one I think you mean, it wasn't very good.

It needs quite a lot of work to do it properly. As has been pointed out you have to do it for all the drivers, or none. Sebi does get Valencia for example.


Well they'd made the effort to do that at least

#190 Rinehart

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 14:49

The point I made on another thread is that there is a perfectly sound argument to say that Hamilton deserves a lot more points this season and should be in the title hunt. So why then are his fans, that know this, reaching for such ludicrous levels of bias to push the same point home and in doing so, losing all credibility and hence the point being made? It really is simple. Hamilton should be in the title hunt, if not for circumstances, but Hamilton is not immune to circumstances so if you're going to isolate Hamiltons circumstances, your on a hiding to nothing.


#191 pingu666

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:31

it just is what it is, what hamilton/team could of achived reasonably if they had exicuted near perfectly, but other peoples ran as they did in reality.

you can argue about certain races and results and if its fair or not, but a general concensous of oh boy theyve dropped alot of points and hamilton should have a decent shot at the title is a reasonable conculsion




#192 pingu666

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 15:47

rather alarmingly all those lost points are fairly close to saubers wcc points, and with that macca would be leading the wcc too