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Schumie at Benetton "We never cheated at any time" [split]


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#151 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:23

I have a hypothesis that MS wanted to win 8 titles to beat Fangio, hence his comeback. On the basis that there was a still small voice telling him his first two didn't really count...

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#152 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:49

At least the racing gods had an understanding and spared us the same drama in 2007.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 16:49.


#153 William Hunt

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:56

that are just claims of a (mostly british) press.


untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too + accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example) + accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car + where there is smoke, there is fire

Edited by William Hunt, 08 November 2012 - 16:57.


#154 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:58

untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too + accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example) + accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car + where there is smoke, there is fire

And a bloody great big fire in the pits.

Plus we have the British media making accusations against a British team, of course.

#155 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:03

1st untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too


According to a magazine. Back to square one.

+ accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example)


Sure.

accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car


Yep and his main argument for his suspicion (at least he made clear that he didn´t know anything) was: "He can´t be so much faster". Convincing...

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 17:17.


#156 William Hunt

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:05

Accordings to a magazine. Back to square one.


And do you think that these magazines didn't check their sources before claiming that former Benetton personnel is accusing their former employer of cheating?

#157 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:08

...



No further answer to your adventurous cover-up-theory?

What a surprise...

#158 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:08

And do you think that these magazines didn't check their sources before claiming that former Benetton personnel is accusing their former employer of cheating?


Is this groundhog day in here?

Just read the last two pages for christs sake.

But who am i talking to anyway? Anybody who believes an ebay-ad is a credible source is either five years old or needs his head checked.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 17:11.


#159 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:20

No further answer to your adventurous cover-up-theory?

What a surprise...

Eh? I didn't have a cover-up theory. I had a lack of enforcement hypothesis. Add to that slinging Benetton out of the WC would have led to one heck of a legal battle with all sorts of skeletons coming out of the closet - perhaps related to, say, another team the FIA liked using TC (as admitted by one of its drivers) - that the FIA might have preferred to keep closed.

It was certainly common knowledge at the time that that's why Schumacher kept getting draconian penalties for technical breaches - the FIA couldn't (or wouldn't) nail them for the big stuff so they threw the small stuff at them.

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#160 1Devil1

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:28

I have a hypothesis that MS wanted to win 8 titles to beat Fangio, hence his comeback. On the basis that there was a still small voice telling him his first two didn't really count...


:lol: My hypothesis MS wanted another seven titles because he thought his titles didn't really count because of Jerez 1994, Adelaide 1994, customized tires, second class teammates, team order and low competition he faced in the likes of Hakkinen and Hill. His only chance was to battle the new generation to get at least one honest title. He failed and will remembered as journeyman.

Edited by 1Devil1, 08 November 2012 - 17:28.


#161 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:36

Eh? I didn't have a cover-up theory. I had a lack of enforcement hypothesis. Add to that slinging Benetton out of the WC would have led to one heck of a legal battle with all sorts of skeletons coming out of the closet - perhaps related to, say, another team the FIA liked using TC (as admitted by one of its drivers) - that the FIA might have preferred to keep closed.


Maybe i misunderstood you, but i thought, you assumed the FIA/LRDA found a TC besides the launch control, but didn´t publish that. Which would´ve made little sense (see previous answers).
btw. When you said (and meant it seriously) that Benetton switched the LC/TC off in Imola, because they were being investigated, why was it also apparently deactivated:
- at the start in Brazil?
- in Monaco qualifying (out of the last corner) and during the race (wheel-spin out of the chicane after the tunnel..)?
etc.

On second thought..forget the question. Another user already pointed that out, you chose to ignore it. You´re probably just posting in here for a small round of trollgasms.

It was certainly common knowledge at the time that that's why Schumacher kept getting draconian penalties for technical breaches - the FIA couldn't (or wouldn't) nail them for the big stuff so they threw the small stuff at them.


It´s common knowledge, that the FIA under Mosley always wanted to stage a close WDC-fight, if they saw an opportunity to do that. That was the main reason for the penalties.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 17:40.


#162 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:44

Eh? I didn't have a cover-up theory. I had a lack of enforcement hypothesis. Add to that slinging Benetton out of the WC would have led to one heck of a legal battle with all sorts of skeletons coming out of the closet - perhaps related to, say, another team the FIA liked using TC (as admitted by one of its drivers) - that the FIA might have preferred to keep closed.

It was certainly common knowledge at the time that that's why Schumacher kept getting draconian penalties for technical breaches - the FIA couldn't (or wouldn't) nail them for the big stuff so they threw the small stuff at them.


The other thing to is that in 1994, the FIA was far in over their heads when it came to checking cars for all sorts of things. That the FIA could have missed things during post-race scrutineering is not all that unusual.

If I recall correctly, I believe Patrick Head made a comment when Ferrari was told to get rid of their TC, that had it been Williams caught like that, the entire team would have been on their way back to England.

There was a completely different set of rules and standards applied in 1994 depending on which team was involved.

#163 10e10

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:45

Something to do with Vasco da Gama, if I remember correctly.


Actually it was Pedro Alvares Cabral, but it was close enough, and a good one.

#164 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:49

The other thing to is that in 1994, the FIA was far in over their heads when it came to checking cars for all sorts of things. That the FIA could have missed things during post-race scrutineering is not all that unusual.


Well on the hypothesis that the FIA might just have missed something, probably every team cheated then...


#165 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:59

Maybe i misunderstood you, but i thought, you assumed the FIA/LRDA found a TC besides the launch control, but didn´t publish that. Which would´ve made little sense (see previous answers).

There seemed to be a suggestion that the LC could have been used as a TC, but I failed to follow the technical arguments. What I DO remember is Benetton's excuse that "it was difficult to unpick the code so we just hid it" was ridiculed by the other teams - one other said it took about five minutes to do.

btw. When you said (and meant it seriously) that Benetton switched the LC/TC off in Imola, because they were being investigated, why was it also apparently deactivated:
- at the start in Brazil?
- in Monaco qualifying (out of the last corner) and during the race (wheel-spin out of the chicane after the tunnel..)?
etc.

Simple enough - I can't remember what happened at those races. But who's to say that it would be used at all times? There are times when Suarez is genuinely fouled, there were times when Carnera didn't have opponents bought off.

Actually it was Pedro Alvares Cabral, but it was close enough, and a good one.

He needs a football team.

#166 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:15

There seemed to be a suggestion that the LC could have been used as a TC, but I failed to follow the technical arguments. What I DO remember is Benetton's excuse that "it was difficult to unpick the code so we just hid it" was ridiculed by the other teams - one other said it took about five minutes to do.


Yes, perhaps some people on the internet, who want to rewrite a launch control into a traction control, so that it suits their agenda. Both a are just software gimmicks, but the very definition of a launch control is, that its job is done after the start. That´s what the FIA said, they´ve found. Anything beyond that would be once again mere speculations without any indications.


Simple enough - I can't remember what happened at those races. But who's to say that it would be used at all times? There are times when Suarez is genuinely fouled, there were times when Carnera didn't have opponents bought off.


Flavio: Hey Schumi let´s use a illegal launch control for 94, okay?
MSC: Great idea!
Flavio: Alright, but let´s just use it here and there randomly..not at every Grand Prix.
MSC: Why not?
Flavio: Well because... :confused:


Seriously, it has come to that(?) : "Benetton always used TC, LC, electric toothbrushes et. al. ....oh, except for the occasions, when they obviously didn´t use it."

Do you realize, how silly that argument is?


Edit:
But whatever. I think we can agree that we just have a different p.o.v. in that matter. As I already said: If there would be actually substantial evidence for the use of illegal components someday, i´ve no problem to raise my hand and say, i was wrong. It´s not like i idolize MSC and pretend that he is a saint.
In fact it won´t change much regarding his reputation either way . Many drivers have sit in dubious/illegal cars and aren´t accursed for that (one even made it to a well respected tv-pundit and was ironically a teammate of MSC), but only a few punted other drivers off the track or parked their car to impede them...

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 18:52.


#167 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:44

Trouble is Johnny, you're lying through your teeth, as you weren't faster in any of the sessions, either before or after the so called "you can't see my data any more". I guess that Speedcar title didn't console you much, did it Johnny?


You're technically correct, although in the (wet) first qualifying session in Argentina Herbert was only 0.012s off Schumacher's best time. Very close to beating him, especially by 1995 standards. Strikes me that 1) it's perfectly reasonable for Herbert's memory to be ever so slightly out (he doesn't strike me as someone who'd keep all the official timesheets just in case an interviewer asked him about them) and 2) it doesn't exactly invalidate what he's saying.

#168 ensign14

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:50

Seriously, it has come to that(?) : "Benetton always used TC, LC, electric toothbrushes et. al. ....oh, except for the occasions, when they obviously didn´t use it."

Do you realize, how silly that argument is?

Well, no, given that the FIA could not prove they used it. Had they used it all the time then proving that would have been a morceau de pisse.

#169 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:58

...


Just for the sake of completeness and i case you´re interested...i added some last lines in my post and want to leave it with that, as think we´ve reached the end of our discussion. ;)

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 19:15.


#170 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:33

Well on the hypothesis that the FIA might just have missed something, probably every team cheated then...


Come on now already.

No other team had the amount of accusations of rampant cheating thrown their way in the manner that occurred with Benetton.

...and they were found to be definitively cheating regarding the fuel refueling rigs being modified to increase the flow rate by 12.5%. Pretty sizable advantage to have in those days, not even taking any other things into account like traction control.

#171 LiJu914

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:52

Come on now already.
No other team had the amount of accusations of rampant cheating thrown their way in the manner that occurred with Benetton.


Only three teams were investigated - the teams, which got the podium finishes in Imola. I guess, you know the story about all of them.

And your statement in general is quite questionable.
They harder you´re blamed, the more you´re guilty - or what is the logic behind that?

The allegations regarding illegal software usage were on the basis of the ominous "option 13"-LC. That is at least a fact. Your remark, that they probably used a traction control, but the just FIA didn´t find it, on the other hand is just your own private fantasy.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 19:53.


#172 Shambolic

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:57

Come on now already.

No other team had the amount of accusations of rampant cheating thrown their way in the manner that occurred with Benetton.

...and they were found to be definitively cheating regarding the fuel refueling rigs being modified to increase the flow rate by 12.5%. Pretty sizable advantage to have in those days, not even taking any other things into account like traction control.


So by not cheating (due to having permission to remove the filter), they're proven to have cheated running something they never had?

I think I've got the measure of the logic at play in this thread now.

#173 1Devil1

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:17

So by not cheating (due to having permission to remove the filter), they're proven to have cheated running something they never had?

I think I've got the measure of the logic at play in this thread now.


Don't get upset. You will find no logic in his comments. One step wrong and you are always guilty. Why is McLaren running in this championship, they cheated in 2007, the must be clearly have a advantage by using some "illegal" I never heard about. Hope nobody is studying law who's taking those conclusions.

#174 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:33

So by not cheating (due to having permission to remove the filter), they're proven to have cheated running something they never had?

I think I've got the measure of the logic at play in this thread now.


So you deny removing the filter in the refueling rig did not result in an advantage?

:rotfl: :rotfl:

12.5% fuel flow rate increase equals a faster pit stop.

Do you know the the fuel filters were not supposed to be removed?

Because if any debris wound up getting stuck, the valve would not close, and fuel would pour out when it was not supposed to. Which is precisely what happened on July 31, 1994 at Hockenheim when Jos Verstappen was almost burned to death by a negligent, and cheating Benetton team.

What's fantastic is people actually have the gall to post they believe Intertechnique's defense of Benetton.

Remember, the team principal was Flavio Briatore, a convicted fraudster, and the perpetrator of one of the the other major F1 scandals; Crashgate. The technical director was none other than Cheating Tom Walkinshaw who made a name for himself on his willingness to bend the rules into another dimension.

Those two doing something wrong? Nah.... :rotfl: :rotfl:

#175 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:36

Don't get upset. You will find no logic in his comments. One step wrong and you are always guilty. Why is McLaren running in this championship, they cheated in 2007, the must be clearly have a advantage by using some "illegal" I never heard about. Hope nobody is studying law who's taking those conclusions.


Devil,

Can you tell me if the current technical rules in 2012 are identical to that of 2007?

I might be mistaken, but I was under the working assumption the rule book has changed just a tad bit in the past five years...or did I miss something where the cars are still near identical to the 2007 season?

#176 1Devil1

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:42

Devil,

Can you tell me if the current technical rules in 2012 are identical to that of 2007?

I might be mistaken, but I was under the working assumption the rule book has changed just a tad bit in the past five years...or did I miss something where the cars are still near identical to the 2007 season?


But subject A has nothing to do with subject B that is my point. While FIA found the wrong filter system at Benetton doesn't mean they are guilty for having a traction control. Just because you believe the "bad" team of the 1994 season would have done everything to win doesn't mean they did so.? There is no interconnection of fuel rig and traction control just because we are looking at one regulation system (1994). Do not get your argument.

#177 BoschKurve

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:09

But subject A has nothing to do with subject B that is my point. While FIA found the wrong filter system at Benetton doesn't mean they are guilty for having a traction control. Just because you believe the "bad" team of the 1994 season would have done everything to win doesn't mean they did so.? There is no interconnection of fuel rig and traction control just because we are looking at one regulation system (1994). Do not get your argument.


Why I bring up the refueling rig is because Benetton proved they were willing to go the extra distance to cheat their way to the 1994 title. They got caught red-handed finally and were set to be kicked out of the championship altogether till Mosley walked his way into the disciplinary hearing and organized it in favor of Benetton.

A number of people have said the B-194 had traction control.

One of the Benetton mechanics even admitted the car had "everything but cruise control." But the usual suspects continue denying this by trying to bring up court cases in a country that has some of the most horrific libel laws in existence.

If cycling could open up a case against Lance Armstrong and strip him of all of his titles 13 years after the first for cheating, the FIA could certainly reopen the sham of 1994 and get to the bottom of it. Just promise immunity to those who know, and then give the 1994 WDC to Damon Hill.

Edited by MightyMoose, 08 November 2012 - 22:21.
Removed: Libelous statement> Brown Shirt Max goose-stepped


#178 dau

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:10

[...]
Flavio: Hey Schumi let´s use a illegal launch control for 94, okay?
MSC: Great idea!
Flavio: Alright, but let´s just use it here and there randomly..not at every Grand Prix.
MSC: Why not?
Flavio: Well because... :confused:
[...]

MSC: Fine, but while we're at it, let's only put it on my car, because i'm an evil cheater and who needs constructor championships anyway?

#179 MrFondue

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:53

MSC: Fine, but while we're at it, let's only put it on my car, because i'm an evil cheater and who needs constructor championships anyway?


Flavio and MSC break out in evil laughter, end of scene.

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#180 Vic Vega

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:54

I have a hypothesis that MS wanted to win 8 titles to beat Fangio, hence his comeback. On the basis that there was a still small voice telling him his first two didn't really count...

Is that from "Psychoanalysis for dummies"? Do you own the entire set of "for dummies"?

You're technically correct, although in the (wet) first qualifying session in Argentina Herbert was only 0.012s off Schumacher's best time. Very close to beating him, especially by 1995 standards. Strikes me that 1) it's perfectly reasonable for Herbert's memory to be ever so slightly out (he doesn't strike me as someone who'd keep all the official timesheets just in case an interviewer asked him about them) and 2) it doesn't exactly invalidate what he's saying.

You are either quicker than someone, or you aren't. F1 isn't a gentlemanly Sunday drive where it's only important to participate. Competitive nature of the sport makes you remember every little victory you got (especially in poor ol' Johnny's case where he hadn't had many, and against highly regarded team-mate). It completely invalidates what he's saying, as he's flat out lying, and using that lie to insinuate a reason for certain events.

Gaps from Interlagos, where he had insight into telemetry:

FP1
3 1 M.Schumacher Benetton/Renault 1'22.468 0.804
8 2 Johnny Herbert Benetton/Renault 1'24.246 2.582
FP2
1 1 M.Schumacher Benetton/Renault 1'23.607
11 2 Johnny Herbert Benetton/Renault 1'30.625 7.018
1st Qualif.
6 1 M.Schumacher Benetton/Renault 1'22.131 2.050
John Paul Herbert did not drive
2nd Qualif.
1 1 M.Schumacher Benetton/Renault 1'20.382
4 2 Johnny Herbert Benetton/Renault 1'20.888 0.506
Warm-up
3 1 M.Schumacher Benetton/Renault 1'22.124 0.543
7 2 Johnny Herbert Benetton/Renault 1'22.675 1.094

Oh Johnny, you joker you!

If cycling could open up a case against Lance Armstrong and strip him of all of his titles 13 years after the first for cheating, the FIA could certainly reopen the sham of 1994 and get to the bottom of it. Just promise immunity to those who know, and then give the 1994 WDC to Damon Hill.

I would agree that FIA is a circus, but it's still not as low as USADA and UCI where here-say goes and scapegoats are presented to hide incompetence.

#181 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:24

Competitive nature of the sport makes you remember every little victory you got


Forget psychoanalysis for dummies, this is mind-reading. :lol:

#182 MightyMoose

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:26

Just a reminder to everyone that you are responsible for anything you write on here and we as MODs will not stand back and allow potential libelous statements on here about anyone's role in 1994. Particularly if you insist on commenting 'negatively' on those who were in positions of authority.

This is a tricky topic because battle lines have been drawn a long time ago, I doubt any information that will be forthcoming will be sufficient to change anyone's mind from the position they've taken up. Therefore please consider how you approach it.

#183 Vic Vega

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:47

Forget psychoanalysis for dummies, this is mind-reading. :lol:

That is a reality of a cut-throat competitive sport as F1 for you. As an example, Martin Brundle took great pride in mentioning he earned more points than Schumacher in 2nd half of the 1992 season (even if it did include races like Monza where Ze German had to change nose in lap 1 and charge back through the field to finish only 7 s behind Brundle). As I said, these guys especially remember every little victory, more so if they haven't achieved much like Brundle or Herbert.

Edited by Vic Vega, 08 November 2012 - 22:49.


#184 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:50

They're not all the same.

#185 Vic Vega

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:51

untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too

Who? You have Steve Matchett who, in his book "Life in the Fast Lane: The Inside Story of Benetton's First World Championship", denies such allegations on one side, and imaginary characters that worked at Benetton on other side. I really can't decide who to trust now.

accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example)

The very same Berger who, after first test for Benetton, claimed B195 was undrivable for him, and was amazed how Schumacher was competitive with that car? Or is it the very same Berger who drove for Ferrari at the same time as Nicola Larini? The same Nicola Larini who leaked to the Italian media, during Pacific GP, that Ferrari was using traction control? Is that your credible source?

accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car

Oh, multiple wife beater Jos the Boss, who BTW was only capable of outclassing Ricardo Rosset, is credible now.

Or are the guys at Benetton so dimwitted to not fit TC to second car and thus dimisnish their own chances at winning WCC (lose millions in the process as a result of not winning WCC), and also risk having disgruntled employee?

where there is smoke, there is fire

Or you could use Jos' favourite idiom: where there's slap, there's bruise.

Edited by Vic Vega, 09 November 2012 - 00:24.


#186 SparkPlug

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:46

Why I bring up the refueling rig is because Benetton proved they were willing to go the extra distance to cheat their way to the 1994 title. They got caught red-handed finally and were set to be kicked out of the championship altogether till Mosley walked his way into the disciplinary hearing and organized it in favor of Benetton.

Proof of guilt for one crime (which is also on shaky ground), does not translate to proof for another.

Its akin to a courtroom scene where the prosecution makes wild claims such as :

"That man stole my lunchbox, thus he is also responsible for all murders in my city this year ! What more proof do you require ? "




#187 Slartibartfast

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:13

Just a reminder to everyone that you are responsible for anything you write on here and we as MODs will not stand back and allow potential libelous statements on here about anyone's role in 1994. Particularly if you insist on commenting 'negatively' on those who were in positions of authority.

This is a tricky topic because battle lines have been drawn a long time ago, I doubt any information that will be forthcoming will be sufficient to change anyone's mind from the position they've taken up. Therefore please consider how you approach it.

Several prominent (former) F1 people have been mentioned in this saga. At least two are known to be willing to turn to the Courts when they feel they have been wronged. One is reported to have instigated legal action because of the term "witch hunt".
This raises the question as to whether BusinessF1 was sued over Christion Sylt's "Unmasking the President" article.
If so, what was the outcome? Does anyone know?

#188 Tsarwash

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:23

Sorry, but whilst I am aware of frequent adveserial opinions about various incidents in his F1 career, I am not aware of any act you describe which could be presented in forensically sound terms, despite that I am with him since Prost retired. He was judged by media, racing enthusiasts, and by FiA; a body of three people who are working with limited resources, time, and are prone to human error. (I sometimes actually wonder where and by whom they were trained on modern techniques of investigation of incidents they judge). I think we can leave it at that.

You are saying that Schumacher has never been proven of having cheated ? So Monte Carlo 2006 never happened in your mind then ? He cheated, he denied it, he was thrown to the back of the grid. That's not really under question, at least not with rational people, anyhow.

My point is that it is widely accepted that Schumacher has personally cheated in the past, and strongly denied or lied about the incidents. Why should we believe his denials this time ? I don't think that he had anything to do with the removal of the fuel filters, but it's interesting that he is raising this issue right now, when his on track performances are just turning out so direly. He's racing really badly recently, and has obviously badly tarnished his legacy, and questions are going to be asked about just how much his past performances were actually down to his personal skill, and what other factors were involved in his fantastic successes.


#189 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:00

Proof of guilt for one crime (which is also on shaky ground), does not translate to proof for another.

Its akin to a courtroom scene where the prosecution makes wild claims such as :

"That man stole my lunchbox, thus he is also responsible for all murders in my city this year ! What more proof do you require ? "


:lol:

Remember Crashgate?

Like I said, Flavio was convicted in court of fraud back in the 1980s.

This is a guy with a criminal record, and a history of doing underhanded things.

The running theme Flavio always had, is that everything he did wrong involved fraud.

Your example is poor, we're not accusing him of murder, just fraud, which his track record is filled with.

#190 seahawk

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:50

The investigation after Imola left many questions open. We do not know if Option 13 was in the code used by other Ford engine teams. We do not even know if Renault was clean. We only know that the FIA found no code at Ferrari and McLaren. Well McLaren is no surprise after changing the engine to Peugeot. Ferrari on the other hand had better starts than Benetton on more than one occasion.

#191 ThomFi

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:53

I am very surprised to read on this board, that Mosley was on the side of Benetton and there was even a relationship between Mosley and Schumacher like between Balestre and Prost.
In fact, the opposite was the case. Mosley was not the friend and protector of Benetton, he was the "problem".
After Imola, several rule changes were introduced to slow the cars down and Benetton felt, that these changes would hurt them more than others. Briatore wrote an open letter to Mosley, accusing him of being incompetent.

A part of the letter:
"It will be theirs and the FIA's responsibility that they race. Now that the teams have had an opportunity to test and evaluate the Barcelona regulation changes, it has become apparent that there are serious problems. The stability and consistency of the cars has worsened. This can be confirmed by discussions with the majority of teams and their drivers. The cornering speed of the cars may have been reduced, but the likelihood of an accident has been increased. Several teams are experiencing structural failures which are attributable to the change in regulations. The loading on key components, such as rear wings, has changed and moved outside the designed range. Despite these concerns, you continue to insist on these ill-conceived measures. It is our opinion that the ability of yourself and your advisers to judge technical and safety issues in F1 must be questioned."
There are also other quotes from Briatore like: "Mosley would be better off gardening on race weekends." Mosley hit back, by going after them the rest of the season.


#192 1Devil1

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:57

You are saying that Schumacher has never been proven of having cheated ? So Monte Carlo 2006 never happened in your mind then ? He cheated, he denied it, he was thrown to the back of the grid. That's not really under question, at least not with rational people, anyhow.

My point is that it is widely accepted that Schumacher has personally cheated in the past, and strongly denied or lied about the incidents. Why should we believe his denials this time ? I don't think that he had anything to do with the removal of the fuel filters, but it's interesting that he is raising this issue right now, when his on track performances are just turning out so direly. He's racing really badly recently, and has obviously badly tarnished his legacy, and questions are going to be asked about just how much his past performances were actually down to his personal skill, and what other factors were involved in his fantastic successes .


This thread is about Schumacher comments about Benetton not about Monaco 2006, not about his so called bad performance recently or you questioning if he ever was really good. :rolleyes:

#193 kyriakos75

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:13

You ignore that one of the Benetton mechanics said the B-194 had everything but cruise control...I think he would have been in a better position to speak than you. It's actually mentioned in the article I posted.


So according to your "argument" this particular mechanic didn't rule out miniguns either? If we combine this with Flavio's criminal record it's obvious to everyone that the B-194 must have had them hidden inside its sidepods.

Edited by kyriakos75, 09 November 2012 - 19:13.


#194 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:30

So according to your "argument" this particular mechanic didn't rule out miniguns either? If we combine this with Flavio's criminal record it's obvious to everyone that the B-194 must have had them hidden inside its sidepods.


I was discussing fraud and Flavio Briatore, of which there is a record...quite a lengthy one at that.

Your part about miniguns is the typical garbage I would expect from people who have no real points to make.

Edited by BoschKurve, 09 November 2012 - 19:31.


#195 jstrains

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:23

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.

#196 Risil

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:39

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.


Oh, everyone cheated. It's just that Benetton cheated more, or cheated less well.


#197 jstrains

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 21:40

Malaysia 1999 similar story
http://www.globalmot...races/malaysia/

The debut race in 1999 will always be remembered for a controversial Ferrari disqualification. A disagreement about the size of the Ferrari's bargeboards, in apparent contravention of the rules, led to the disqualification of Eddie Irvine and Michael Schumacher who had finished first and second respectively. The points were eventually reinstated after an FIA hearing just before the final race of that year

#198 Tsarwash

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 21:47

This thread is about Schumacher comments about Benetton not about Monaco 2006, not about his so called bad performance recently or you questioning if he ever was really good. :rolleyes:

You are correct about the bolded part, but his behaviour at Monte Carlo in 2006 is relevant. Why should I believe the cheating denials of somebody who has been judged guilty of cheating in the past ?


#199 ensign14

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 21:48

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.

That's not cheating per se, that's miscalculating. It's not like they were trying to hide something.

What's more concerning is Schumacher seems to think driving onto the racing line in a terminally damaged car when the bloke who is about to take the title from him is already there is not cheating.

Also, one dog that hasn't barked yet...if this is all British anti-Schumacher feeling, how come the nickname is a German one?

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#200 Sakae

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:59

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.

Since when Schumacher was responsible for setting riding height to call him a cheat? You are of course either unwilling, or intellectually incapable as many others who posted in here to differentiatie between technical deviation which team is responsible for, and driver's premeditated act of deceit.