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What circuit you tolerate more without a passing?


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#1 AlexS

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:52

In a race without a passing in what circuit will be the race less dreadful?

For me they are the circuits where speed can be perceived.

So Monza must be for me. I don't know if it is the positions of TV cameras, but there the cars(and the pilots) seems to give the maximum.

Another forum member - sorry don't remember who he was- praised at time of Monza that when a car goes slighty off it put dust in the air. This kind of small signals help perceive the effort and risk.


For other circuits is mostly parts of it:

SPA the whole Blanchimont sequence, Eau rouge. Unfortunately the destruction of bus stop and the strong braking destroyed the speed reference.

For Silverstone i think the "S" are amazing.

Suzuka the whole sequence from the hairpin to the chicane.





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#2 nordschleife

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:14

I notice Monte Carlo is not germane to this question as we have accepted for decades that there is no expectation of passing occurring there. And we have no problem living with that because Grand Prix cars circulating at Monte Carlo are more than wondrous to watch. Actually, just circulating through those streets with Google Earth is worth my time.

#3 Slowinfastout

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:34

I've gained more appreciation for some circuits after driving them in sims... the standout for me is Hungaroring, such an awesome flow, it's a real driver's track.. but it's almost incompatible with the kind of show F1 is trying to offer these days..

#4 Fourjays

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 18:32

I've gained more appreciation for some circuits after driving them in sims... the standout for me is Hungaroring, such an awesome flow, it's a real driver's track.. but it's almost incompatible with the kind of show F1 is trying to offer these days..

Same. Really enjoy that track in sims.

#5 revlec

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 18:44

Turkey without a doubt!!!

_
Of course, it depends on who is the hunter.  ;)

#6 Bartel

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:03

Imola...so bring it back!

#7 Cenotaph

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:21

I guess in the spirit of this thread the answer would be Suzuka? It is considered one of the best circuits, very challenging to drive, but it is also very difficult to overtake in it, tbh.

#8 Shiroo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:25

racing is about overtaking. a track where overtaking is impossible shouldnt be in F1 calendar. If someone like procession, where finish location are set after pit stop, then go ahead. But the track should allow overtaking.

And if it is impossible to overtake on such track, track layout should be changed or removed from calendar imo.

Edited by Shiroo, 07 November 2012 - 19:26.


#9 Disgrace

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:30

Absolutely agree with the idea of the thread. The "show" F1 wishes to portray now is at odds with my idea of a "show." It's all CGI and no plot.

With modern circuits, we're pretty much dependant on enormous amounts of overtaking for entertainment. Valencia and Abu Dhabi are supposedly highlights of the year but that doesn't change that the cars look slow going down ridiculously long straights with acres of space in all directions.

Now it's got to the point where hideous FIA-created circuits and FIA-mandated ugly cars have required FIA-controlled solutions such as DRS. How ridiculous and artificial.

I notice Monte Carlo is not germane to this question as we have accepted for decades that there is no expectation of passing occurring there. And we have no problem living with that because Grand Prix cars circulating at Monte Carlo are more than wondrous to watch. Actually, just circulating through those streets with Google Earth is worth my time.


:up:

It's like watching a film with a car chase with real action and real stunts (Ronin) or you can watch something that is in-your-face blatantly not real (Transformers). There is no thrill in watching the latter.

This year's Monaco GP was probably my favourite of the season; the cars looked quick and there was strategic intrigue until the end precisely because cars couldn't get past each other at the press of a button. The chase is no longer an intrinsic part of the catch in DRS-F1. Somehow, it's become all about the overtake (which has been ruined).

Narrower/bumper/windier circuits recreate the lost sense of speed and danger that drivers could make an error that means we don't need fake overtaking. Wide, point-and-squirt walled concrete jungles means we're reliant on them.

Edited by Disgrace, 07 November 2012 - 19:33.


#10 Risil

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:34

Narrower/bumper/windier circuits recreate the lost sense of speed and danger that drivers could make an error that means we don't need fake overtaking. Wide, point-and-squirt walled concrete jungles means we're reliant on them.


Windier circuits? You mean like Silverstone in 2003? ;)

Nice points though. :up:

#11 Kingshark

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:35

Monaco and Singapore because both are drivers street circuits.

#12 Disgrace

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:41

Monaco and Singapore because both are drivers street circuits.


Exactly. "Drivers circuits" simply means tougher tracks whereby lesser drivers make errors. Canada and Singapore practice sessions have been better "shows" than Tilkedrome race "shows" because the limit is harder to attain without making an error (also because they actually push when on quali simulation but that's the tyre debate). Even if they're not actually making errors, that danger is still there, and the cars look quick. That's suspense, that's plot.

Edited by Disgrace, 07 November 2012 - 19:45.


#13 Tuxy

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:45

Imola...so bring it back!


:up:

#14 917k

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:54

Absolutely agree with the idea of the thread. The "show" F1 wishes to portray now is at odds with my idea of a "show." It's all CGI and no plot.

With modern circuits, we're pretty much dependant on enormous amounts of overtaking for entertainment. Valencia and Abu Dhabi are supposedly highlights of the year but that doesn't change that the cars look slow going down ridiculously long straights with acres of space in all directions.

Now it's got to the point where hideous FIA-created circuits and FIA-mandated ugly cars have required FIA-controlled solutions such as DRS. How ridiculous and artificial.



:up:

It's like watching a film with a car chase with real action and real stunts (Ronin) or you can watch something that is in-your-face blatantly not real (Transformers). There is no thrill in watching the latter.

This year's Monaco GP was probably my favourite of the season; the cars looked quick and there was strategic intrigue until the end precisely because cars couldn't get past each other at the press of a button. The chase is no longer an intrinsic part of the catch in DRS-F1. Somehow, it's become all about the overtake (which has been ruined).

Narrower/bumper/windier circuits recreate the lost sense of speed and danger that drivers could make an error that means we don't need fake overtaking. Wide, point-and-squirt walled concrete jungles means we're reliant on them.



And yet dreadful Abu Dhabi produced a race rated as a ''10'' by the majority of fans here. Go figure that people are actually excited by cars ''racing'' each other. I loved old Spa and the other classic that I watched in the 80's but realized that seeing a car go quickly through the same bends, on it's own, lap after lap, no matter how hard the driver was pushing -- was just plain boring for anyone other than a purist. And, there are not enough of those left to bother with I'm afraid.

#15 Disgrace

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:14

And yet dreadful Abu Dhabi produced a race rated as a ''10'' by the majority of fans here. Go figure that people are actually excited by cars ''racing'' each other. I loved old Spa and the other classic that I watched in the 80's but realized that seeing a car go quickly through the same bends, on it's own, lap after lap, no matter how hard the driver was pushing -- was just plain boring for anyone other than a purist. And, there are not enough of those left to bother with I'm afraid.


Your use of quotations is very much correct; cars driving past each other is not my idea of racing. However, the circuit being what is it, overtaking was only just made possible with DRS. The anti-overtaking nature of the circuit and DRS practically cancelled each other out. Vettel's move on Button for instance was a great move as he had to work for it with his numerous advantages negated by the awful layout. Surely then it's possible to do away with both and go to better circuits (available) and ditch DRS (possible) to attain the same results. If not, then we have more of a "show" of cars rather than penis-shaped hotels that glow in the dark.

Edited by Disgrace, 07 November 2012 - 20:22.


#16 pingu666

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:43

darlington
sebring
nw200 circuit

#17 Massa

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 23:37

Absolutely agree with the idea of the thread. The "show" F1 wishes to portray now is at odds with my idea of a "show." It's all CGI and no plot.

With modern circuits, we're pretty much dependant on enormous amounts of overtaking for entertainment. Valencia and Abu Dhabi are supposedly highlights of the year but that doesn't change that the cars look slow going down ridiculously long straights with acres of space in all directions.

Now it's got to the point where hideous FIA-created circuits and FIA-mandated ugly cars have required FIA-controlled solutions such as DRS. How ridiculous and artificial.



:up:

It's like watching a film with a car chase with real action and real stunts (Ronin) or you can watch something that is in-your-face blatantly not real (Transformers). There is no thrill in watching the latter.

This year's Monaco GP was probably my favourite of the season; the cars looked quick and there was strategic intrigue until the end precisely because cars couldn't get past each other at the press of a button. The chase is no longer an intrinsic part of the catch in DRS-F1. Somehow, it's become all about the overtake (which has been ruined).

Narrower/bumper/windier circuits recreate the lost sense of speed and danger that drivers could make an error that means we don't need fake overtaking. Wide, point-and-squirt walled concrete jungles means we're reliant on them.





The swimming pool is the best corner in F1. I can watch all the car all day.

But for me the best track without a passing is SINGAPORE.


#18 917k

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:37

Your use of quotations is very much correct; cars driving past each other is not my idea of racing. However, the circuit being what is it, overtaking was only just made possible with DRS. The anti-overtaking nature of the circuit and DRS practically cancelled each other out. Vettel's move on Button for instance was a great move as he had to work for it with his numerous advantages negated by the awful layout. Surely then it's possible to do away with both and go to better circuits (available) and ditch DRS (possible) to attain the same results. If not, then we have more of a "show" of cars rather than penis-shaped hotels that glow in the dark.



You miss the point - fans here gave it a 10, so they must have liked it, DRS gimmicks and all that. Entertaining is entertaining, regardless of how it is produced and boring is boring no matter how great the circuit.

#19 917k

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:38

Your use of quotations is very much correct; cars driving past each other is not my idea of racing. However, the circuit being what is it, overtaking was only just made possible with DRS. The anti-overtaking nature of the circuit and DRS practically cancelled each other out. Vettel's move on Button for instance was a great move as he had to work for it with his numerous advantages negated by the awful layout. Surely then it's possible to do away with both and go to better circuits (available) and ditch DRS (possible) to attain the same results. If not, then we have more of a "show" of cars rather than penis-shaped hotels that glow in the dark.



You miss the point - fans here gave it a 10, so they must have liked it, DRS gimmicks and all that. Entertaining is entertaining, regardless of how it is produced and boring is boring no matter how great the circuit.

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#20 bourbon

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:59

spa, suzuka, monaco

#21 ViMaMo

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:29

Imola...so bring it back!


Yes, but there are safety issues after a Porsche race had a severe crash. (Car hit the wall and came back onto the home st)


#22 Wander

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:33

I can accept overtaking not happening in Monaco, cause there it really can't be helped without making drastic changes to the track itself, but elsewhere I do wish the design of the cars allowed the faster driver to attack without the problem of "dirty air" being such a huge hindrance.

#23 KavB

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:17

I think boring races would be enjoyed more if the camera angles were better. F1 cars look pretty slow when the camera is looking straight at them from above a corner. There's not much sense of speed. Some MotoGP races have excellent angles, which kind of follows the riders from from the straight to a corner which makes them look pretty damn fast!

If F1 could improve the camera work, it would make even the less exciting races slightly more enjoyable.

#24 F575 GTC

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:43

You miss the point - fans here gave it a 10, so they must have liked it, DRS gimmicks and all that. Entertaining is entertaining, regardless of how it is produced and boring is boring no matter how great the circuit.


I wouldn't take that poll as a yardstick though, I dare say a quite a few people voted the race as high as they did purely for the accidents or because they support Vettel.

#25 AlexS

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:10

I notice Monte Carlo is not germane to this question as we have accepted for decades that there is no expectation of passing occurring there.


:) yes.


I guess in the spirit of this thread the answer would be Suzuka?


I listed Suzuka but not the whole circuit.
Note that my post is written from perspective of a viewer not from that of drivers.
There are certainly difficult corners or curve sequences that by TV camera position or just because it doesn't look good, doesn't appeal to the viewer.


Go figure that people are actually excited by cars ''racing'' each other.


Note that the term i employed was "tolerate" not "excited"


Imola...so bring it back!


Yep. The whole sequence from Tosa to Rivazza http://it.wikipedia....rcuit_Imola.png


I forgot to say that in some places Montreal also give the sense of speed to the viewers.

When a car brakes seeing instability or just a front bow gives feedback to the viewer.
For example a driver now in a F1 car is just a head nothing more for a viewer. We don't see his hands move, the body don't adjust to the forces.

For example see this video of Alonso in an old Ferrari specially in second lap, the feedback it gives to the viewer.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


#26 Disgrace

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:18

You miss the point - fans here gave it a 10, so they must have liked it, DRS gimmicks and all that. Entertaining is entertaining, regardless of how it is produced and boring is boring no matter how great the circuit.


I don't agree with that as per my comparison with CGI-driven films.

Edited by Disgrace, 08 November 2012 - 10:20.


#27 SonnyViceR

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:25

Long Beach I suppose. Even though there is plenty of passing in the ALMS and World Challenge races there due to the multiclass nature of those series and whatnot, the open wheeler races there tend to feature very few passing opportunities. Still, it's just so awesome that it doesn't matter.

There are others of course but that just randomly jumped to my mind

#28 KingB

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:29

I can live with Monaco without passing :)

#29 Wander

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:41

I don't agree with that as per my comparison with CGI-driven films.


Yes, but a film without CGI can be beatifully shot and all that, but who cares if the story is crap?

#30 Disgrace

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:13

Yes, but a film without CGI can be beatifully shot and all that, but who cares if the story is crap?


The thread is about circuits that are tolerated without overtaking. Challenging circuits have something to fall back on in the event of no overtaking (errors due to challenging layout, the anticipation of those errors and the fact that it's a great circuit) wheres modern glitzy circuits simply do not in my view.

F1 emphasises overtaking as it's "story" which I am at odds with.

Edited by Disgrace, 08 November 2012 - 11:21.


#31 choyothe

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:17

So this is a hypothetical situation in which every track has a race with no overtaking, and the question is which race would be most enjoyable?

I guess Spa and Monaco.

#32 Skinnyguy

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:00

My tolerancy depends on cars, not on tracks. Watching a mid 2000´s car pushing alone was itself entertaining. Not anymore.

#33 917k

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:44

The thread is about circuits that are tolerated without overtaking. Challenging circuits have something to fall back on in the event of no overtaking (errors due to challenging layout, the anticipation of those errors and the fact that it's a great circuit) wheres modern glitzy circuits simply do not in my view.

F1 emphasises overtaking as it's "story" which I am at odds with.



The F1 ''story'' or any racing ''story'' should always be about overtaking - a least the meat of the ''story.'' Otherwise what's the point?

#34 BigCHrome

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:51

I agree with however says that DRS "racing" brings absolutely no pleasure. Valencia and Abu Dhabi weren't interesting races for me, there was only the wow factor of drivers behaving like complete idiots plus the unpredictability of the leader having reliability problems.

The only tracks left where it's exciting to watch the cars just lap around are Monaco, Monza, Suzuka, Montreal and Melbourne Park.

There is no sense of speed or excitement in watching a butt ugly car slowly make its way around a 40m wide track with asphalt runoff to boot.

#35 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:36

Monaco for sure, although this year's race bored me as everyone seemed to be driving to save the tyres for 78 laps.

#36 Disgrace

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:55

The F1 ''story'' or any racing ''story'' should always be about overtaking - a least the meat of the ''story.'' Otherwise what's the point?


I agree but in pursuing more overtaking, F1 has in my eyes ruined it by fiddling with it. There is more to overtaking than just more of the moves themselves. If you just like overtaking regardless of quality then don't read on. It now comes at the press of a button but with the way modern circuits are now designed (other than Singapore which is a true street circuit) that is now the predominant source of overtaking. The art of defensive driving also takes a hit.

My point is that my idea of the show can be improved in other ways without fiddling with overtaking itself whilst still creating it and still yet be tolerable without it. The current vicious cycle can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

F1 needs older-style circuits with more potential for overtaking due to bumps/walls/challenging long corners. The potential for errors on "driver's circuits" creates suspense and the idea that an error will be truly punished which provides some form of entertainment in itself. These circuits also happen to be better for watching cars drive around. Narrower circuits without miles of straights create the illusion of quicker cars. Why aren't there more Curva Grandes? It's not a real corner but it looks better than a car going in a straight line.

Say the drivers are having an exemplary day and overtaking just isn't happening due to zero errors and everyone is on the same strategy. That is a boring procession but at least the cars look quicker because they and the drivers are doing more work. That is entertaining. Also, in the event of an overtake, it's more likely that a car will be stuck behind another for several laps preceding the overtake. The now predominantly lost art of defensive driving is back. I found Hamilton vs. Schumacher of Monza '11 to be immensely entertaining because the overtake couldn't happen for numerous laps. Ineffective DRS gave us that suspense back.

I think the idea that viewers need stimulation outside of overtaking is proven by the outrage post-Bahrain GP 2010. Without overtaking, the dull circuit without real challenges nor overtaking opportunities and surroundings were massively exposed which created an intolerable show. If modern circuits lent themselves to overtaking, this wouldn't be an issue at all. This year's Abu Dhabi race was really a fluke due to some awful luck (Rosberg and Vettel in qualifying) and awful driving (Perez).

I expect tl;dr to be the reply but I put some effort into this post so I hopefully won't have to post again. :)

Edited by Disgrace, 09 November 2012 - 00:59.


#37 Ensign

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:16

It wouldn't be my first choice - that would be Spa - and perhaps not even my second but I think the Sepang track in Malaysia is one of the more interesting of the (relatively) new ones.

#38 pingu666

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:22

I guess a good spectatal circuit (or part of) would make you go, wow I cant do that, or blimey thats insane, mixed with history and sense of place, and where the drivers skill, and the speed/cabability of the car are showcased

indy
fast righthander at crandon is pretty amazing too :D

#39 Avastrol

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:51

Monaco is one. But if they start erecting more buildings covering which was once the view of the blue sky (I'm looking at the tunnel exit, blergh at that new building) then it becomes less and less tolerable.

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#40 trapperjohn

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:54

racing is about overtaking. a track where overtaking is impossible shouldnt be in F1 calendar. If someone like procession, where finish location are set after pit stop, then go ahead. But the track should allow overtaking.

And if it is impossible to overtake on such track, track layout should be changed or removed from calendar imo.


Agree 100% - i tolerate no circuit where passing is non existent. Monaco included

#41 Jovanotti

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:49

Considering loads of DRS passing and the latest "achievements" in track design, the more pressing question is probably "what circuit do you tolerate the most despite just being white lines on a tarmac runoff"...

Edited by Jovanotti, 09 November 2012 - 12:56.


#42 Skinnyguy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:48

I agree with however says that DRS "racing" brings absolutely no pleasure. Valencia and Abu Dhabi weren't interesting races for me, there was only the wow factor of drivers behaving like complete idiots plus the unpredictability of the leader having reliability problems.


It depends, if DRS gets you fully past the other guy, it´s crap, like Canada or Turkey last year. This year they have been learning about past mistakes with DRS zones and it has been much better though. :up: Drive by was only possible on cars with a severe pace deficit at that stage, between matched cars DRS produced great racing actually.

Passes like the one Grosjean did to Lewis in Valencia, the one by Webber on Alonso in Silverstone, or the one Vettel did to Jenson last weekend, or the one Vettel did on Grosjean last weekend, are just as good racing as you can get. DRS gave the guys a shot, but they had to make the pass happen. Only reason to not find these pieces of racing as "interesting" is being butthurt because you didn´t want these things to happen :lol:

#43 Risil

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:08

If they hadn't brought in DRS, it might've been interesting to see how aggressive teams would've been on tyre strategy. Knowing, as Murray Walker was fond of pointing out, that "it's one thing to catch the driver in front, and another to get by him".

Edited by Risil, 09 November 2012 - 16:09.