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#301 uffen

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:30

Sebastian Vettel was on a US talk show - David Letterman - a few months back. He used the "f" word during the interview and immediately checked himself. He knew it was inappropriate. He still knows it.

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#302 P123

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:36

Do people here still believe the FIA issued the warning because 20 people complained to the BBC?

#303 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:36

Sebastian Vettel was on a US talk show - David Letterman - a few months back. He used the "f" word during the interview and immediately checked himself. He knew it was inappropriate. He still knows it.

I've got no problems with them using the 'f word' on talk shows as they are usually on late at night. They can swear all they like and often do in pre recorded interviews but when it is going out live, they need to be aware. Its no big deal.

#304 tifosiMac

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:37

Do people here still believe the FIA issued the warning because 20 people complained to the BBC?

I highly doubt any one believes that. It was clear instantly without a single complaint that it needed to be addressed and the complaints made to the BBC had little or no influence I would imagine.

#305 uffen

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:40

^ This.

All your "what ifs" are pointless. You're strawmannirg the discussion to death.


No, I am pushing the limits. Many have said, "let people say whatever they want to say," and I am wondering, if that is now acceptable, what is the next "taboo" that should fall?
What other boorish words or actions should be brushed aside or accepted as "cool" or "real" or "fun"?

I recall drivers being told to not "act like music conductors" during the playing of the national anthems. Why? Real conductors do it and are admired for it.

#306 uffen

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 21:54

Yeah I've always wondered why one word is considered bad and another word with the exact same meaning is perfectly acceptable...And everybody just goes along with it.


Wow. You really don't know? The Stephen Fry quote mentioned earlier is also interesting. Sure there is an interesting philosophical debate in all that, but Fry was being a bit disingenuous, too.
There are many words that have synonyms, sometimes both acceptable ones and crude ones.
"Coitus" and "f#k" ostensibly mean the same thing but the 'f' one has developed into a word with a certain purpose. It is meant to be crude and to convey crassness and lack of social sensibility. This was done purposely. We could say "sexual intercourse" or "coitus", etc. but they don't carry the same baggage. Other common curse words were developed for a similar purpose. There are coarse terms for excrement, penis, sphincter, and on and on, but they were and are consistently used to serve a purpose: to convey the base meaning for a rude effect.

"Hitler" is a long-standing German name. However, it has recently come to carry a lot of negative meaning. Calling someone a "little Hitler" strictly means you are calling him a small German person named Hitler. I don't think anyone would take it that way, though. Surely you can understand why. Same sort of thing with curse words.

If all these common curse words are now to be deemed acceptable then new ones will have to be developed to enable people to be crass and rude. Then we start the debate all over again.

#307 Brother Fox

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 22:15

What I find amusing about your comments here are the way in which they mock people like me who weren't offended by the actual swearing, but appreciate it wasn't appropriate for it to be used at that particular time and have spoken out concerning it.

At no point have I claimed it will damage innocent children and I think the way you have tried to sensationalise my viewpoint is not too dissimilar from the tabloid sensationalism that you and many others here blame for blowing this out of proportion. Its kind of ironic really, enjoyable to read but ironic.

Firstly, I think you're reading too much into it if you though it was a direct dig at you, just treating this topic with the respect it deserves.
Also, some way back I also said that I believe swearing has a time and place and don't think Sunday arvo tv is it.

My point, and always has been that fans and be FIA wanted to see more of the drivers personality - and once they have they don't like it

#308 motorhead

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 22:57

Would it be acceptable for the public broadcaster in your country to start the lunchtime bulletin with 'The global economy has gone to sh't. The whole thing is f'cked up'?

Would that be fine, or would the newsreader be asked not to do that again?


WTF, should these guys be politicians....this is sports and entertainment kid, Politics and journalism is a different game...these guys have swear a lot in team radios anyway that´s how they know that it won´t be published to anyone else or tv during the race

Edited by motorhead, 09 November 2012 - 23:02.


#309 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 23:39

No, I am pushing the limits. Many have said, "let people say whatever they want to say," and I am wondering, if that is now acceptable, what is the next "taboo" that should fall?
What other boorish words or actions should be brushed aside or accepted as "cool" or "real" or "fun"?

I recall drivers being told to not "act like music conductors" during the playing of the national anthems. Why? Real conductors do it and are admired for it.


Nobody has been saying their actions were "cool" or "fun".

And you're still strawmanning if you think saying a swear word on the podium one week automatically means next week the drivers are going to start pushing away at other social norms.
People have said swear words on live TV may times before and our entertainers haven't degenerated into antisocial mud slinging cavemen yet, well most of them...

At the next race the podium will be back to its normal boring self and you can all pull your knickers out of your cracks

#310 Tauhid

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:45

I found Kimi very funny on the podium and you can expect such stuff from him since he is always straight forward, but Vettel went way over the top to be frank. I am glad they have been warned, funny thing is other drivers wouldn't have gone off with just a simple warning such as this, they'd get hefty fines rather.

#311 SpaMaster

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:08

Would it be acceptable for the public broadcaster in your country to start the lunchtime bulletin with 'The global economy has gone to sh't. The whole thing is f'cked up'?

Would that be fine, or would the newsreader be asked not to do that again?

That sounds great! Perfectly reflects the global situation.

#312 SpaMaster

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:26

It would, certainly, be more accurate than the shit they usually use, wouldn't it? ;)

:rotfl:

BTW, Vettel has issued an apology. No word yet from Kimi. :yawnface: :p

Edited by SpaMaster, 10 November 2012 - 05:30.


#313 DrProzac

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:40

Overreaction, how surprising.

#314 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:52

Firstly, I think you're reading too much into it if you though it was a direct dig at you, just treating this topic with the respect it deserves.
Also, some way back I also said that I believe swearing has a time and place and don't think Sunday arvo tv is it.

My point, and always has been that fans and be FIA wanted to see more of the drivers personality - and once they have they don't like it

We seem to agree partially and apologies for my rant. My point still stands to certain opposing views here however and I think others have sensationalised views like mine and exaggerated them to suggest I am totally appalled by what happened. My issue was with those who think swearing should be encouraged on daytime TV and that is shouldn't be apologised for. Its a standard in broadcasting in the UK at least and the 'F word' used by Vettel is still seen as very offensive. It may be used casually in other cultures and countries where English isn't the first language, but here its still seen as a word that can be used in context but offensive nonetheless. If someone was to say the same here in Italian its likely nobody would really care and I guess the English equivalent is seen in much the same way elsewhere. I just think its best for drivers not to swear in any language on live daytime TV as we won't be having debates like this too often in future.

We had a massive uproar in 2007 when Massa and Alonso had an argument in Italian and much of which involved swearing and abuse. They were both made to apologise. I didn't understand a word of it but appreciate it offended those who speak that particular language. Its was obvious it did by the debate I was part of back then. Its all just unnecessary, its not a big deal, but I don't see an issue with the drivers being reminded of the correct etiquette. :)

#315 mtknot

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:52

this is racism.

Mark Webber F-bombs quite a lot on the FIA feed, yet nobody cares. It must be because he's Australian, thus ignored :drunk:

#316 scheivlak

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:00

We had a massive uproar in 2007 when Massa and Alonso had an argument in Italian and much of which involved swearing and abuse.

Nonsense, there wasn't a massive uproar at all about the language.

A contemporary thread: http://forums.autosp...w...=Massa&st=0
It petered out after about 100 posts. There were some posts about who was right (Massa or Alonso), a lot of posters were interested to know what has exactly been said in Italian and a lot of posts were just making fun of it. There was hardly a discussion about their choice of words like we have here.

#317 Shiroo

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:12

this is racism.

Mark Webber F-bombs quite a lot on the FIA feed, yet nobody cares. It must be because he's Australian, thus ignored :drunk:

well need to agree about Webber. I like hi, he has quite brilliant interviews, but he use f-bombs, quite often not only during FIA conference, and no one cares. But it might be about his nationality as mentioned, cause we all know that Australians speak quite funny (with all this ol' and curses :p).

TOUGH COUNTRY FOR TOUGH PEOPLE



Imo if they all would have moustache no one would care, cause they would look as tough as Chopper. SO HARDEN THE **** UP DRIVERS! And grow the ****in moustache

Edited by Shiroo, 10 November 2012 - 11:17.


#318 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:34

Nonsense, there wasn't a massive uproar at all about the language.

A contemporary thread: http://forums.autosp...w...=Massa&st=0
It petered out after about 100 posts. There were some posts about who was right (Massa or Alonso), a lot of posters were interested to know what has exactly been said in Italian and a lot of posts were just making fun of it. There was hardly a discussion about their choice of words like we have here.

I wasn't a member here then so that particular thread is just an example of what was said on this forum.

#319 milestone 11

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:54

Would it be acceptable for the public broadcaster in your country to start the lunchtime bulletin with 'The global economy has gone to sh't. The whole thing is f'cked up'?

Would that be fine, or would the newsreader be asked not to do that again?

Shocking news if you're a bean or donkey.

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#320 Ali_G

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:01

They're are a lot of problems in the world.

Have the word **** said on TV at 3 in the afternoon is not one of them.



#321 Ali_G

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:03

Can people on here please tell me why they are offended by the word "fuck" ? The word essentially has no meaning in the way most people use it.

Edited by Ali_G, 10 November 2012 - 12:03.


#322 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:13

Can people on here please tell me why they are offended by the word "fuck" ? The word essentially has no meaning in the way most people use it.

I'm not personally offended by it and use it daily (in an adult environment), but appreciate its offensive to a lot of people and shouldn't be used during day time programs. If I used it in front of my grandparents they would be deeply offended. If I used it in front of children in my family, they would be scared and offended. I don't think its meaning has been watered down enough to be classed as appropriate for day time viewing.

#323 Arry2k

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:31

I'm not personally offended by it and use it daily (in an adult environment), but appreciate its offensive to a lot of people and shouldn't be used during day time programs. If I used it in front of my grandparents they would be deeply offended. If I used it in front of children in my family, they would be scared and offended. I don't think its meaning has been watered down enough to be classed as appropriate for day time viewing.

This pretty much sums it up for me. I wasnt offended when they swore in the podium interview, but totally understand why some would be and agree it is inappropriate given the audience and time of day.

#324 uffen

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 13:40

Nobody has been saying their actions were "cool" or "fun".

And you're still strawmanning if you think saying a swear word on the podium one week automatically means next week the drivers are going to start pushing away at other social norms.
People have said swear words on live TV may times before and our entertainers haven't degenerated into antisocial mud slinging cavemen yet, well most of them...

At the next race the podium will be back to its normal boring self and you can all pull your knickers out of your cracks



Yes, they have. That's why I put it in quotation marks. So I am being a strawman, so what? No, I don't think the Austin podium will have three guys making rude gestures. I am just trying to get an understanding of the mentality that says using curse words when you are there representing your country, your team, your sponsors, etc, is perfectly fine. Mimicking a music conductor is not. At least you acknowledged that there are social norms. That's a start!

#325 shaggy

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 14:49

"Formula 1 drivers have been told not to swear during media interviews. Governing body the FIA issued the demand after both Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen swore, live on air, while on the podium after last Sunday's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix."
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20253052

Can't say I was massively paying attention during the interviews. What did Räikkönen and Vettel say?


Well, it is about time for someone to stand up and ask that people follow basic rules of manners and decency.

The lowest common denominator cannot possibly become the norm. Hard to believe that people today are proud that they use language that would make a sailor blush ):

#326 drunkenmaster

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:18

At least you acknowledged that there are social norms. That's a start!


Oh f***, to hell with social norms!!! :p

#327 watchdogfish

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 16:21

I think it's more about being a professional, they are at work after all. Fair enough if you're at home or out with friends but swearing in front of a few million people when you're aware it's being broadcast live on a Sunday afternoon isn't very professional.

I don't see much point of complaining to the BBC, though. It's not like it was a pre-recorded show and the BBC chose to show it before 9pm. You'd think people would have enough sense to realise it was a live broadcast and the BBC don't have much control over what's transmitted.

#328 Victor

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 16:30

IMO swearing and bad words are very useful in certain occasions of life. That's why they should be used with parsimony in order not to lose their impact.

Edited by Victor, 10 November 2012 - 21:35.


#329 pdac

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 17:13

I think it's more about being a professional, they are at work after all. Fair enough if you're at home or out with friends but swearing in front of a few million people when you're aware it's being broadcast live on a Sunday afternoon isn't very professional.

I don't see much point of complaining to the BBC, though. It's not like it was a pre-recorded show and the BBC chose to show it before 9pm. You'd think people would have enough sense to realise it was a live broadcast and the BBC don't have much control over what's transmitted.


Ah, but they do. They can control their presenters and ensure that their language will not offend any viewers and they can control whether or not to broadcast other aspects of the event, such as in-car radio or, in this case, the live podium interview. And that's the issue here - if the drivers do not contain their use of language then broadcasters like the BBC make take it upon themselves (or indeed may be forced by the broadcast regulators) to stop covering these things. Also, sponsors might not like the way their brands are being presented either.

#330 Skinnyguy

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 18:04

Well, it is about time for someone to stand up and ask that people follow basic rules of manners and decency.

The lowest common denominator cannot possibly become the norm. Hard to believe that people today are proud that they use language that would make a sailor blush ):


It´s ridiculous that some people want to have control over what others say, or how they say it. As long as people don´t offend/attack anybody, let them alone. A f*** or a shit does not hurt anybody, unlike drivers calling others stupid. And when that happened, no one cared. It´s ridiculous that you can´t say words that are not meant to hurt anyone, but you can get away with name-calling and insulting. Some people priorities and sensibility are a joke.

If you feel offended by a swear word not directed to hurt anybody, it´s you who has a problem. Get over it.

#331 Schumacher7

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 20:27

Without going in to the whole etymology of it, the words carry a historical cultural meaning to them.

I have already referred to it on this thread, but take a racial epithet beginning with the letter 'N'. Is it appropriate to use in every day conversation? Why not, its just a noise? Because it carries a meaning, and is used to hurt and discriminate against people. In three hundred years time I would bet that the word (or a derivitive of it) is still tabboo, although sometimes used by people ignorant of its original meaning as language changes.

There is a reason why swear words are considered offensive, though the reasons why might not be so clear now. But anyway, we need swear words - how to express certain emotions without a tabboo to use? Tabboo's are useful, and I for one would hate to lose swear words. They can be really handy for causing offence. But then they are better applied as appropriate - used as an exclamation mark and not as a comma, and with an awareness that if we want to keep the power to provoke (and I do) not to cause needless offense at the wrong times. Which really isn't that hard.

And why is the meaning of the word f*ck so offensive?

#332 R Soul

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:14

Because like a lot of swear words it has a sexual meaning, and parents must be allowed to ensure their children don't hear such words until they're old enough not to be distressed. Other words may not be sexual but they still have an aggressive tone to them.

Swearing has its place - when you're scared, in pain, furious etc, but none of those applied to the drivers on the podium.

#333 Brother Fox

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 00:01

Don't give them too much shit, they just f*cked up :)


#334 Eff One 2002

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:35

I found Kimi and Seb's slips on the podium, and particularly David Coulthard's reaction of clear embarassment hilarious myself but knew there'd be people out there dropping their monacle in their champagne in horror. Also, I enjoyed it when Seb showed some personality and sense of humour by pouring the rose water in DC. It was refreshing in a day and age where most of the drivers are such PC automatons with little to no personality. What made it even funnier is that DC looked pissed off about it... :rotfl:

Can people on here please tell me why they are offended by the word "fuck" ? The word essentially has no meaning in the way most people use it.

Can't help you there. It's one of my favourite passtimes... nice method of getting around the swear filter btw.;)

Edited by Eff One 2002, 11 November 2012 - 01:41.


#335 LittleChris

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:38

Probably the mechanics. That was the excuse Schumacher Minor used when he said f**k live on air on the BBC about 15 years ago anyway. Mind you, Ralfie never was the sharpest tool in the box!


Wasn't it Argentina 1997 when Ralfie did that and his team-mate at Jordan, Fisi did the same ( I assume they learnt their colloquial English / Irish from EJ ) ? From what I remember it was ITV's first broadcast of Eff One and that t0sser Jim Rosenthal's face was a peach to see :rotfl: What a tw@t !!

At Abu Dhabi, for what it's worth, I think it was Kimi being Kimi and Seb on a wind up as a result. I'm just a bit disappointed that Alonso being as boringly corporate as ever didn't call anyone a cnut.


Anyway, no harm done and all those whinging on this thread about "bad" language need to grow up and understand that there are more important things in the world than worrying about someone saying f?ck or sh!t, the eradication of US drivers making reference to g0d being one since I and a considerable percentage of the earths population find their peddling of superstition incredibly offensive.

#336 Eff One 2002

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:43

I'm just a bit disappointed that Alonso being as boringly corporate as ever didn't call anyone a cnut.


Yeah, I was thinking he may have felt left out and maybe felt like busting out an expletive or two... :cool:

#337 travbrad

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:41

After the race in Abu Dhabi, one F1 paddock regular with great experience of working in the USA, pointed out that to have drivers swearing on the podium in Austin would be headline news there.


It would have to actually be on TV for it to be a problem here in the USA. At least 90% of our population doesn't have the channel that broadcasts F1 (SPEEDTV), and of those 10% that do a lot of them still don't watch F1. Abu Dhabi was broadcast in exactly the same way as Austin will be, and there have been no "headlines" whatsoever.

Britain's BBC confirmed that it received 22 telephone calls about the swearing.


What is the BBC supposed to do about it? It's a live broadcast. Are they going to stop showing F1 because 22 people in the entire nation complained?

Because like a lot of swear words it has a sexual meaning, and parents must be allowed to ensure their children don't hear such words until they're old enough not to be distressed. Other words may not be sexual but they still have an aggressive tone to them.


Any kid over 5 years old has heard much worse at school. I understand parents try to be protective of their kids, but they are fooling themselves if they think their child has never heard swear words. A lot of those same parents seem to have no problem letting their kids watch movies/TV where people kill each other either, at least here in the U.S. In my mind killing is infinitely worse than swearing.

Edited by travbrad, 11 November 2012 - 04:44.


#338 Verbal

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:29

I think both used those "bad words" simply because they are not native speakers of English. People in other countries have been so influenced by US culture that words like "sh*t" and "f*ck" have become normal parts of everyday language. When someone here at work makes a typo at the computer, shuts down the wrong server and shouts "F*CK!", nobody is shocked how rude that person is, simply because it is not considered a "bad word which you should not use". On the other hand, if that co-worker would use some really awful German exclamation, people would definitely look at him and wonder if anything SERIOUSLY wrong happened there.

Guess what I am trying to say is that both Kimi and Sebastian did not consider those words particularly rude or offensive, for Sebastian the expression "to f*ck up" was just a slightly more colourful way of saying "make a stupid mistake" and not something which would make 22 viewers get a heart attack.

This.


#339 tifosiMac

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:52

Any kid over 5 years old has heard much worse at school. I understand parents try to be protective of their kids, but they are fooling themselves if they think their child has never heard swear words.

That's very true and I know I used swear words when I was very young at school but knew if I used it in front of my father I would get the hiding of a lifetime. Its about decency and broadcasters control this by such simple rules. If you swear on live TV in the UK before 9pm, and this happens quite often, there is usually an apology and if its really bad it makes the news. After 9pm you get no reaction at all because its a time of day where people expect it. The kids are often tucked up in bed or old enough to know what they will see on TV.

This standard isn't just expected on TV of course. I'm sure we've all been in a situation where someone has been asked to mind their language in front of children or their partners in social situations. You can say all you like that people can say whatever they like as its 'freedom of speech', but its usually accepted and respected without any real fuss. I wouldn't swear casually in a conversation if I knew children were around or family members I never hear swear. Of course they've all heard the words before and know their meanings, but I'm not a moron who like to swear for effect.

The podium was no big deal as I keep saying, but those who claim it should be encouraged or a blind eye should be turned are obviously not the types of people who respect the use of bad language in the appropriate situations IMO.

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#340 pdac

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 13:40

What is the BBC supposed to do about it? It's a live broadcast. Are they going to stop showing F1 because 22 people in the entire nation complained?


The problem is that there are very clear broadcasting guidelines that they must be seen to be adhering to. We can all say it's silly, but that's the way it is in the UK. They are allowed the occasional slip if it (as in this case) was difficult for them to control, but be in no doubt that if it became a regular occurence, then the BBC (and Sky, for that matter) would be forced to add a 10 second delay.

#341 panzani

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 13:55

Well, it is about time for someone to stand up and ask that people follow basic rules of manners and decency.

The lowest common denominator cannot possibly become the norm. Hard to believe that people today are proud that they use language that would make a sailor blush ):

So says someone whose nickname is shaggy...

#342 uffen

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:43

It is not so much the definition of the word, or words, it is the social attitude and connotations that accompany them. I cannot fathom why some people don't get this.
The whole point of these types of words are to offend and shock. That's why so many terrible comics use them in their monologues, their material really isn't funny but if they say "f@#k" loudly, and in the right place some people will react with laughter.

And the fact that kids hear it at school means it is ok for general broadcast? Get real.



#343 polaris

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:24

well in australia the most politically correct cuntry in the world they delay the f1 broadcast so its on about midnight and the times i had my kids up to watch it the adds during race included those ones where some scantilly dressed woman comes on suggesting you should call her on some sex line. i wrote to the minister of sport complaining about it and didnt even get a reply. Thats what australians pay tax for, to be ignored by some bogus polititian protecting his job rather than doing it

#344 Skinnyguy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:48

The whole point of these types of words are to offend and shock.


Wrong. Insults and name calling have that target: upset or offend other people. Swear words don´t. They are not meant to produce a negative effect on anyone, it´s people getting upset by a stupid word who has to get over it.

A driver calling another imbecile/idiot etc is a far more serious issue, it´s a direct attack, and no one cared when it happened. Some people priporities are a joke. Now being "polite" and "correct" is more important than not attacking others. The way people say things is more important for some that what´s been said. Ridiculous. Kimi and Sebastian didn´t meant to offend any driver/spectator/team/whatever, they just said normal stuff. If you got upset by what happened, there´s something wrong with you.

#345 Sammyosammy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:21

OMG! What happened?

:eek:

#346 Brother Fox

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:15

well in australia the most politically correct cuntry in the world they delay the f1 broadcast so its on about midnight and the times i had my kids up to watch it the adds during race included those ones where some scantilly dressed woman comes on suggesting you should call her on some sex line. i wrote to the minister of sport complaining about it and didnt even get a reply. Thats what australians pay tax for, to be ignored by some bogus polititian protecting his job rather than doing it

It's been live for ages?

Its probably been 10 years since Ch 9 did that

#347 scheivlak

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:31

well in australia the most politically correct cuntry in the world they delay the f1 broadcast so its on about midnight and the times i had my kids up to watch it the adds during race included those ones where some scantilly dressed woman comes on suggesting you should call her on some sex line. i wrote to the minister of sport complaining about it and didnt even get a reply.

I think I know why :D

#348 buellher

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:16

It's been live here for years.
Welcome to the new homogenised, pasteurised world of F1 - thanks so much, Bernie ....

#349 SpamJet

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:11

Hey

Can we change the the title of the thread so it says 'Kimi and Seb say S*** and F*** on the podium' ?



#350 Mediansoft

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 10:11

Let's show it uncensored on the Autosport forum (during daytime *gosh*)... please look away if you are one of the 21 callers!

FUϹK!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Edited by Mediansoft, 12 November 2012 - 10:13.