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#1 piperp2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:49

Does anyone recognise or know what the red car below is, been trying for a long time to identify the red car behind the unclothed Lotus 17, taken at Brands Hatch circa 1960.

Posted Image


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#2 David Birchall

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 16:53

The red car appears to be a special--the far forward placing of the radiator, and presumably the engine, give it away. Bentley?

The Seventeen interests me-it appears to still have strut type suspension-any idea whose it was?

#3 Paul Parker

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:09

Does anyone recognise or know what the red car below is, been trying for a long time to identify the red car behind the unclothed Lotus 17, taken at Brands Hatch circa 1960.

Posted Image


It looks to me like an LG45 Lagonda Rapide circa 1936/7 but with the panelling in front of the radiator removed and abbreviated front wings.

As the number plate ends with 588 there is bound to be somebody on here who can identify both car and the then owner no doubt.

#4 piperp2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:19

The red car appears to be a special--the far forward placing of the radiator, and presumably the engine, give it away. Bentley?

The Seventeen interests me-it appears to still have strut type suspension-any idea whose it was?


The Lotus 17 belonged to Ronald Wrenn, he raced it quite successfully at the Roskilde Ring in Denmark and recorded the fastest lap of the day at the June 1960 Eight Clubs Silverstone event.

Edited by piperp2, 08 November 2012 - 17:21.


#5 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:19

The same thoughts on the red car's identity were expressed here:

http://www.prewarcar...ery-017607.html

Edited by Tim Murray, 08 November 2012 - 17:20.


#6 Paul Taylor

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:40

Long shot:

http://webcache.goog...lient=firefox-a

#7 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:40

How about this for a possibility? - from the Lagonda club's report here on their picnic at Clandon Park in July:

The other surprise was brought by Phil and Sally Erhardt. After 47 years off the road, and now in new livery he presented his V12 Le mans Replica, EXE 588. Phil gave the assurance that it was not a saloon conversion but that he had purchased the car as a V12 with an odd and very incorrect 2 seater body.


Edit: Great minds, Paul. :up:

Edited by Tim Murray, 08 November 2012 - 17:45.


#8 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 17:59

Do you know which event that was at?
In the early 1960s Herts County A&AeC ran an annual sprint at Brands and one of their members at that time was Donald Overy who owned the LG45 Rapide known as the Scarlet Woman which I know I saw at one of those sprints and my guess is it is that car. Donald also had a V12 Rapide made to closely resemble Scarlet Woman and that's my fallback guess!
I can't quickly find a photo of either but I have one somewhere!

ETA it could be that the "odd and very incorrect 2 seater body" on the Erhardts' car was Donald's. What one can say is it isn't a Le Mans replica body in the original photo as they look like:
Posted Image

Edited by Allan Lupton, 08 November 2012 - 18:10.


#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:11

Here's a description of 'The Scarlet Woman' when she came up for sale in 2001 after Donald Overy's death:

http://www.artfact.c...-1-c-ddcl11vh9e

Her registration was AGE 730, so I don't think she's the mystery car, but her 'clone' might well be.

#10 Mistron

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:33

My immediate thought was 'the scarlet woman' too.

From memory, it was pictured in Philip Porter's Jaguar Competition cars book, in a rather garishly tinted photo of a race start next to Bira in an early XK120. I think we used the in the catalogue - possibly even on the cover?

#11 David Birchall

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:00

I suppose that I should have recognised a Lagonda since the group of friends I have lunch with every Saturday have several LG45s and V12s between them... :blush:
But I still think the radiator is too far forward!

#12 arttidesco

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 19:44

Looking at an enlarged view of the radiator grill there do not appear to be the vertical shutters I'd commonly associate with an LG45 or later Bentley so if the radiator is 'genuine' I'd go with early Bentley or for my money the give away is the position of the radiator grill right at the front of the car ahead of the leaf springs which I'd associate with the V12 Le Mans Replica EPE 588 suggested by Tim, see the example linked here, it's not a perfect match but it's closer than the LG45 or any Bentley I can think of.

Edited by arttidesco, 08 November 2012 - 19:47.


#13 Paul Parker

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:21

I suppose that I should have recognised a Lagonda since the group of friends I have lunch with every Saturday have several LG45s and V12s between them... :blush:
But I still think the radiator is too far forward!


I'm not an authority on pre-war Lagondas but I believe that the reason you think the radiator is too far forward is that the original front wings curved down and forward beyond the radiator and blended into an apron in front of said radiator thus giving the car a nose of sorts.

#14 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:54

It's a Lagonda LG45 certainly. I'm not sure it's that much of a special except for the wing valences and front apron being removed. The bodywork, as far as we can see, looks pretty original. The rad is unusually far forward on these Lagondas giving a nose-heavy look. The 'EXE' registration link is interesting. I'm not an authority on Lagondas but my friend Julian Messent in Belgium certainly is. I'll send him the pic and see what he comes up with.

Here's a 'standard' car. Pretty similar I'd say

Posted Image

ST :wave:

#15 D-Type

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:00

In the highly unlikely event that it is not Lagonda EXE 588, could it be a Marendaz Special as they also had the radiator set well forward

Edited by D-Type, 08 November 2012 - 22:03.


#16 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:52

Please remember that the V12 (and LG6) does not have a leaf-sprung front but the earlier LG45 does. Compare the V12 Le Mans I posted a photo of with the LG45R two posts up.

#17 arttidesco

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 23:59

Please remember that the V12 (and LG6) does not have a leaf-sprung front but the earlier LG45 does. Compare the V12 Le Mans I posted a photo of with the LG45R two posts up.


:up:

#18 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 00:48

Please remember that the V12 (and LG6) does not have a leaf-sprung front but the earlier LG45 does. Compare the V12 Le Mans I posted a photo of with the LG45R two posts up.


Yes, hasty post of mine there :| Now looking a bit of a hybrid. That definitely looks like a 45 body but there certainly aint any dumb-irons! Waiting on a reply from Julian M.

ST :wave:


#19 mikeC

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:11

As soon as I saw the photo, I thought Lagonda; it's certainly not a Bentley or a Marendaz. But the identity of the specific car... sorry, no idea.

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#20 Geoff E

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:17

EXE 588
Lagonda
First reg 5 May 1938
4480cc
Green
Taxed till 1 June 2013

#21 piperp2

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:22

Well thanks everybody for all their input, the mystery has been solved, the car is EXE 588 in her 60’s guise. In those days she was apparently successful in V.S.C.C. hill-climbs. She now sports a Le Mans type body. The current owner is going to furnish me with some more details.



#22 arttidesco

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:27

Well thanks everybody for all their input, the mystery has been solved, the car is EXE 588 in her 60’s guise. In those days she was apparently successful in V.S.C.C. hill-climbs. She now sports a Le Mans type body. The current owner is going to furnish me with some more details.


Congrats to Tim Murray I think :clap:

#23 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:11

Fair do's - Paul Taylor posted the relevant webpage first (just). :blush:

#24 arttidesco

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:49

Fair do's - Paul Taylor posted the relevant webpage first (just). :blush:


Indeed as you say Paul got there first :blush: :up:

#25 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 17:16

Er...what exactly have we proven here? That the OP's pic was EXE in it's modified original guise? I'd hardly call it 'an odd and very incorrect 2-seater.'

Lagonda Club, Southern Area - A picnic at Clandon Park, near Guildford - Sunday 15th July, 2012

CLANDON PARK NT SURREY

The other surprise was brought by Phil and Sally Erhardt. After 47 years off the road, and now in new livery he presented his V12 Le mans Replica, EXE 588. Phil gave the assurance that it was not a saloon conversion but that he had purchased the car as a V12 with an odd and very incorrect 2 seater body


AGE 730 was the 'Scarlet Woman', were there two highly modified red Lagondas competing in the 50s and 60s, one 6-cylinder and one V-12?

AGE 730, as we know, was sold recently in its modified 'original' spec and is here in the UK

The vehicle details for AGE 730 are:
Date of Liability 01 06 2013
Date of First Registration 03 03 1937
Year of Manufacture 1937
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 4500cc
Fuel Type PETROL
Vehicle Status SORN Not Due
Vehicle Colour RED

So what is this current EXE? More to the point, what body did EXE have originally, the near-standard one that is illustrated in the OP's pic presumably. It's now a fake (per DSJ) and another fine piece of coach-building has gone up in smoke over the years. Pity.

ST :wave:

#26 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:04

We do seem to have made a bit of a meal of it!
As one who knew the cars of Donald Overy, not to mention the man himself*, I can say that the V12 Scarlet Woman lookalike was in no way near standard. That's because V12s were not marketed as sports cars so a Rapide body was special.
The true Le Mans team cars were nothing else but that, but as they looked pretty racey and went well they have been cloned many times, usually from derelict saloons. What body EXE588 originally had I can't say, but I probably know a man who does.

*probably about 50 years ago!

#27 Paul Taylor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:33

Fair do's - Paul Taylor posted the relevant webpage first (just). :blush:


Beat you by seconds :lol:

From piperp2's post, it sounds like he's already got in contact with the owner of EXE 588, so I'm assuming it's resolved? :smoking:

Edited by Paul Taylor, 09 November 2012 - 20:33.


#28 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:34

Good post Allan, thanks. I'd be interested to hear what body EXE originally had :up:

#29 David Birchall

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:38

So, its a Special, innit?

#30 Allan Lupton

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:27

So, its a Special, innit?

Yes, and since, like many others, it has now been a special for at least two-thirds of its existence I can't get upset about it.

#31 Allan Lupton

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:27

I found some rather poor photos I took at an HCAAeC Brands sprint and one of them was Donald's V12 Lagonda going round Druids. I only found negatives and my slide scanner isn't working so the best I can do with a normal scanner is not much good and I can't post photos here as I can't be doing with the image hosting sites.
Can attach to an email of course.