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Whitmarsh on Hamilton, Merc deal, Lewis' regrets & Perez-Jenson pairing!


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#151 whitevisor

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:46

Some journalists say that Hamilton leaving Mclaren has turned on its head the view that the driver is not bigger than the team. It's certainly looking like the Mclaren Hamilton relationship has turned from a sort of mutualism to one of Amensalism. Whitmarsh is doing his best to dispel any such appearances especially that the high profile team failings were spot-lighted by Hamilton near perfect performances over the season.

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#152 Alx09

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 00:02

The way MW is going on about it, I construct those statements as "I desperately regret that he has left us". Judging by how LH is looking so happy and relaxed these days, it is difficult to see where MW is coming from. The happiest looking and best performing member of the Mclaren team is LH. The rest just looks lost and sad...

:up:

That move had its critics and its unbelievers too, but on the whole it paid off for them.


What? "In hindsight" it may have lost them 2 WDCs, and hurt McLaren in many other ways. One of the biggest mistakes I can see. Imagine if they had fully focused on Hamilton and made him #1 driver.


As for the interview, I have to say he was at least open, but he seem bitter, and as someone else mentioned, probably under heavy pressure.

Edited by Alx09, 11 November 2012 - 00:37.


#153 Risil

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:35

What? "In hindsight" it may have lost them 2 WDCs, and hurt McLaren in many other ways. One of the biggest mistakes I can see. Imagine if they had fully focused on Hamilton and made him #1 driver.


In 2008 the team was fully focused on Hamilton and he made mistake after mistake. His 2010 and 2011 seasons were no different. It's plausible to suggest that his upturn in performance this year was spurred on by his failure to beat Button the year before, isn't it?

Mclaren probably don't see themselves as in the business of protecting a mentally fragile driver from a quick teammate.

#154 study

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:43

In 2008 the team was fully focused on Hamilton and he made mistake after mistake. His 2010 and 2011 seasons were no different. It's plausible to suggest that his upturn in performance this year was spurred on by his failure to beat Button the year before, isn't it?

Mclaren probably don't see themselves as in the business of protecting a mentally fragile driver from a quick teammate.


lol mistake after mistake :drunk:


So instead of protecting a mentally fragile driver they went and done the opposite and did everything to support his team mate including removing his winning team and given 2nd hand strategy, seems a strange thing to do if he's so mentally weak?

Edited by study, 11 November 2012 - 02:43.


#155 Lazy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:51

A little ironic certain LH fans calling MW bitter tbh.

#156 Sakae

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:52

.... Why the quiet word with Hamilton when it is Whitmarsh making the comments :confused: ?


I think you need to follow several posts to understand context. Of course no one can make Hamilton responsible for comments made by his Boss, and no one will react to a single incident. In the future however Hamilton needs to re-assure everyone that there are no doubts in his mind that change was wanted, change was needed, and change is what he sees as a good thing from his perspective. Keeping quiet for too long creates merely impression that he either doesn’t care in what light his new home is being portrayed, or he might even agree it was a mistake.

Brackley is work in progress (in contrast to McLaren), and it would be nice and right thing to do if Hamilton says, no, I am not regretting my move, because I want to be a part of something that I helped to build (like Schumacher has done at Ferrari) into a winning team. I think guys at Brackley would like that.

#157 ViMaMo

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:14

Im sorry, there is no perfect driver in F1. Just because Lewis is liable to making mistakes, cannot make him solely responsible for Mclaren not winning a WDC since 2008. Hiring Button hasnt helped them secure the WDC or the WCC.

Button was available to Mclaren even when he was trundling around in that lawn mover of a Honda, guess MW was blind then.

#158 FigJam

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:47

and lets not kid ourselves that McLaren will be fine because they still have Jenson Button.

If it was Button leaving McLaren with Hamilton staying I reckon the team would be breathing a little easier....

#159 jjcale

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:28

Some journalists say that Hamilton leaving Mclaren has turned on its head the view that the driver is not bigger than the team. It's certainly looking like the Mclaren Hamilton relationship has turned from a sort of mutualism to one of Amensalism. Whitmarsh is doing his best to dispel any such appearances especially that the high profile team failings were spot-lighted by Hamilton near perfect performances over the season.


Wow... thank you. I learned something new today.

And yes that is a very good term to describe what is/was going on at Macca - and it may have been a mutual process. Separation was inevitabele and essential... IMHO

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#160 AlexS

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:12

I think we will see the continued attempt to character assassination next year against Hamilton.
This interview with a news title chosen by media based on a guess(!) is just the follow up of gang effort against Hamilton done earlier for example in Autosport and Pitapss just before the announcement when it mattered to put the biggest pressure on Hamilton to sign with Mclaren and not go to Mercedes.
After the fact some British journalists accepted it and moved on, but many still don't. That clique allied it seems with Mclaren will continue to bang on talking about what Hamilton thinks, a sort of Media-Mclaren psychoanalysis of Hamilton.

I'll also be very curious about behavior on track next year.



#161 robefc

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:42

I think you need to follow several posts to understand context. Of course no one can make Hamilton responsible for comments made by his Boss, and no one will react to a single incident. In the future however Hamilton needs to re-assure everyone that there are no doubts in his mind that change was wanted, change was needed, and change is what he sees as a good thing from his perspective. Keeping quiet for too long creates merely impression that he either doesn’t care in what light his new home is being portrayed, or he might even agree it was a mistake.

Brackley is work in progress (in contrast to McLaren), and it would be nice and right thing to do if Hamilton says, no, I am not regretting my move, because I want to be a part of something that I helped to build (like Schumacher has done at Ferrari) into a winning team. I think guys at Brackley would like that.


Well lets wait until thursday or whenever this week, as I'm sure he'll be asked. There is no need for him to respond to comments before then, if he's even aware of them. Personally I don't think he needs to say anything at all but I doubt the press will allow that, although he might deflect it.

I'm 99% sure those at Brackley don't give two sh1ts what MW says.

#162 peroa

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:54

Lew' said what he had to say, that he's fully committed to macca till the end of the season and that he is looking forward to the new challenge.
It's Martin steering the sh** every other interview.

#163 study

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:59

Well lets wait until thursday or whenever this week, as I'm sure he'll be asked. There is no need for him to respond to comments before then, if he's even aware of them. Personally I don't think he needs to say anything at all but I doubt the press will allow that, although he might deflect it.

I'm 99% sure those at Brackley don't give two sh1ts what MW says.


I could image Brawn just commenting like he always does with a slight, "we shall see" with a wiry half small, he's too savy to be bothered

#164 BillBald

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 14:00

It seems that MW is panicking and making bad decisions.

Well, that's exactly what McLaren have been doing all year, so it's not exactly a surprise.

Hopefully the winter break will give the guys a chance to reflect and get their heads straight, starting with MW.



#165 Fox1

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:54

It seems that MW is panicking and making bad decisions.

Well, that's exactly what McLaren have been doing all year, so it's not exactly a surprise.

Hopefully the winter break will give the guys a chance to reflect and get their heads straight, starting with MW.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

#166 F1ultimate

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:43

The comment Whitmarsh are making about Perez and Lewis are outstandingly unprofessional. He's on a gaff-marathon here. It's unbelievable how Ron Dennis is letting Martin speak like this.

http://www.planetf1....-know-pressure-

#167 MadYarpen

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:50

I think MW has easily beaten boulier with bullsh!t in this interview. EB has had his moments, and also his face begs for someone to punch it, but in this interview MW has shown no class at all IMO.

E: I am no Hamilton fan, btw. Just to be clear;)

Edited by MadYarpen, 11 November 2012 - 23:01.


#168 ayali

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:54

The comment Whitmarsh are making about Perez and Lewis are outstandingly unprofessional. He's on a gaff-marathon here. It's unbelievable how Ron Dennis is letting Martin speak like this.

Ron Dennis would probably say the same, although with a lot more words ;)

Really have to laugh about the faux outrage of some Hamilton fans about Martin's comments on Perez.
He's right, the kid will have to learn and will make mistakes.
With guidance from Jenson and the team I really think he'll become another great Whitmarsh hiring.

#169 F1ultimate

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:00

Ron Dennis would probably say the same, although with a lot more words ;)

Really have to laugh about the faux outrage of some Hamilton fans about Martin's comments on Perez.
He's right, the kid will have to learn and will make mistakes.
With guidance from Jenson and the team I really think he'll become another great Whitmarsh hiring.


It is not the comments about Perez that are outrageous but also those about Lewis and the reality that Whitmarsh has done a lacklustre job of capitalising on the car's performance this year and the talent of his drivers. This isn't a good time for his to feed the press with frankness.

#170 ayali

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:25

It is not the comments about Perez that are outrageous but also those about Lewis .......

Can't see what is so outrageous about what he's saying about Lewis??
He hopes Lewis will live to regret leaving McLaren, of course he does.

Really if you expect him to wish Lewis all the best with Mercedes you don't understand the competitive game that is F1

#171 study

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:23

Can't see what is so outrageous about what he's saying about Lewis??
He hopes Lewis will live to regret leaving McLaren, of course he does.

Really if you expect him to wish Lewis all the best with Mercedes you don't understand the competitive game that is F1


Yes, many other team bosses have.

The faux outrage comment, don't you show that in regards to Lewis?

Edited by study, 12 November 2012 - 01:51.


#172 SNiko

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:47

Another reason to look forward to the 2013 season, Hamilton vs McLaren, who will regret more?.


Both

#173 Rakaman

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:50

Honestly, Whitmarsh should be fired after this year. I have never seen anyone throw away a championship like this.

#174 SNiko

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:56

Lew' said what he had to say, that he's fully committed to macca till the end of the season and that he is looking forward to the new challenge.
It's Martin steering the sh** every other interview.


Lewis used to talk a lot. Despite this, all those moments Martin was defending him, he didn't say any bad word about him, even when he really deserved it and everybody was blaming him.

Lewis just trying to be polite to the end of the season, he knows that there are no more motivation for team to support him and if he will blame team for something, the team may even turn away from him. I'm not talking about diversion, no, but the team will not support him as much as before.

Edited by SNiko, 12 November 2012 - 04:31.


#175 SNiko

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:30

Honestly, Whitmarsh should be fired after this year. I have never seen anyone throw away a championship like this.


LOL

What about Ron? Do you think 2003 and 2005 were better? 2002 and 2004 were ten times worse than 2009, 2010 and 2011 together!

F1 team is a very big organization. Success or failue - depends on many people and thousands of factors. One person cannot control everything! Do you think RB's success is Horner's merit? Do you really think that if Marting was managing RB, Newey would make sh*t cars?

You can also blame Marting for loosing Lewis, but Ron lost Ayrton, Kimi, Newey.

#176 Sakae

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:40

LOL

What about Ron? Do you think 2003 and 2005 were better? 2002 and 2004 were ten times worse than 2009, 2010 and 2011 together!

F1 team is a very big organization. Success or failue - depends on many people and thousands of factors. One person cannot control everything! Do you think RB's success is Horner's merit? Do you really think that if Marting was managing RB, Newey would make sh*t cars?

You can also blame Marting for loosing Lewis, but Ron lost Ayrton, Kimi, Newey.


In business world you would not survive, unless you are married to owner's daughter. Someone has to be accountable for some odd, what, fourteen years (?) of not being capable to bridge the gap between being best second team, and WCC crown. I am only superficially familiar with culture of UK based businesses, but I know quite well what would happen to you in US for such performance. People would tell you that you are good, but not good enough. After all, isn’t that how F1 treats its drivers?
We have these professional sport teams all over of which some are living for decades on glory of the past, going through much reorganization, starting over, yet with McLaren I think it is different. Being consistently bride's maid and never a bride must be driving fans crazy. What about stakeholders? While I am rooting for an opposing team, I am actually pleased over McLaren's self-destruction in 2012; from a different point of view I also think if this season doesn't trigger's changes within, than I am not sure what it takes that would, and it goes deeper than one driver is leaving, regretful or not.


#177 paulrobs

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 17:44

That would be perfect after a win in Brazil, the birthplace of Senna.


+1 :up:

#178 paulrobs

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 18:00

The more I think about that article and having re-read it a few times I'm now of the opinion that it is out of character for MW. Any speculation as to the reason why would be just that, speculation. Something is happening behind the senes though and he is getting a fair bit of heat from somewhere. He's always been unwilling to criticise anyone in the past.

I tell you, we are witnessing the beginning of the end of McLaren. Ok, not the end, but a reduction in their success and ability to retain and attract the top drivers. We've seen it hapen with Williams and McLaren aren't immune, especially when they always think they know best and are always right and are (most likey) unwilling to change. Drivers and top designers (well Newey) still matter.

#179 Rocket73

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:16

Interesting what Merc have been saying about needing this current dip in form to progress to a stronger future...this team has form on this sort of thing and i wonder how much Lewis was enticed with promises of a special car next year...

There has to be something because on the face of it seems like a daft move...i would have gone to Lotus, maybe he couldnt.

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#180 garoidb

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:23

It seems that MW is panicking and making bad decisions.

Well, that's exactly what McLaren have been doing all year, so it's not exactly a surprise.

Hopefully the winter break will give the guys a chance to reflect and get their heads straight, starting with MW.


Anyway, this sets up a nice competition to see who will have more success next year (and the next few years); McLaren with Whitmarsh or Merecedes with Hamilton. Time will tell.

#181 P123

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:43

Interesting what Merc have been saying about needing this current dip in form to progress to a stronger future...this team has form on this sort of thing and i wonder how much Lewis was enticed with promises of a special car next year...

There has to be something because on the face of it seems like a daft move...i would have gone to Lotus, maybe he couldnt.


Merc have upgraded their windtunnel, poached Genni's aero man, are investing more money to bring the team up to RRA levels and the 2013 car will be the first car under the guidance of Costa. No doubt Mercedes never pushed any of that in front of Hamilton; they just made him the best paid driver in F1 instead, according to Whitmarsh.

#182 garoidb

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:49

Merc have upgraded their windtunnel, poached Genni's aero man, are investing more money to bring the team up to RRA levels and the 2013 car will be the first car under the guidance of Costa. No doubt Mercedes never pushed any of that in front of Hamilton; they just made him the best paid driver in F1 instead, according to Whitmarsh.


Yes, they must have used a sales pitch like that. Otherwise, the move would make no sense. The question is - will it work?

#183 MP422

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:59

Yes, they must have used a sales pitch like that. Otherwise, the move would make no sense. The question is - will it work?


I don't see why not.

#184 BernieEc

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 20:03

Anyway, this sets up a nice competition to see who will have more success next year (and the next few years); McLaren with Whitmarsh or Merecedes with Hamilton. Time will tell.


Well Perez seems to think the McLaren will be the car next season.

Sergio Perez is targeting the Drivers' Championship in his first season at McLaren

http://www1.skysport...ason-at-McLaren

#185 garoidb

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 20:19

I don't see why not.


It is still an open question, though.

#186 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 20:59

Lewis has a history of speaking when things were better left unsaid. A long history.

Edited by D.M.N., 13 November 2012 - 22:46.
remove quote and attack on another poster


#187 slmk

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 21:15

It is still an open question, though.


As if McLaren was any better. McLaren had the car to beat for nearly half a season and they have nothing to show for. Car is not everything. I'd argue smooth operations are as critical to a team/driver's success... look at Ferrari/Alonso this season.

McLaren certainly has the better base overall (especially in terms of performance), that we can't argue with.

#188 Fox1

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 21:19

Lewis has a history of speaking when things were better left unsaid.

Name a driver who hasn't done so. The real point is that despite all the adversity Lewis has gone through with McLaren, he's never been known as person who speaks negatively about the team. The same cannot be said about a lot of other drivers on the grid, yet they get remarkably less crap thrown at them for their prima donna moments.

#189 Nahnever

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 21:21

Name a driver who hasn't done so. The real point is that despite all the adversity Lewis has gone through with McLaren, he's never been known as person who speaks negatively about the team. The same cannot be said about a lot of other drivers on the grid, yet they get remarkably less crap thrown at them for their prima donna moments.

:up:

#190 garoidb

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 21:43

As if McLaren was any better. McLaren had the car to beat for nearly half a season and they have nothing to show for. Car is not everything. I'd argue smooth operations are as critical to a team/driver's success... look at Ferrari/Alonso this season.


But McLaren have been quite a bit better than Mercedes, as you seem to acknowledge below.

McLaren certainly has the better base overall (especially in terms of performance), that we can't argue with.


Anyway, all I am saying is that is going to be interesting to see how things work out. But anyone who doesn't think Lewis has taken a career risk is not facing facts.


#191 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 22:25

Name a driver who hasn't done so.

This isn't about any one incident.

#192 thesham01

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 23:45

This isn't about any one incident.


He makes a very good point though. If you can't see that, then you're already well beyond reasoning with. Your mind is made up, no doubt.

#193 dans79

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:37

MW Is an idiot, plane an simple. People who run organizations with budgets in the 200- 250 million euro range are supposed to be smart enough to make statements like this.

"I hope he thinks today that he's made an awful mistake and I hope he thinks that next year."

The proper statement would be something like:

"Personally I think he has made a mistake, and it's to be expected that he is going to second guess him self, it's hard not two when you make decisions of that magnitude."


All MW comments did was make himself, and McLaren look like they have something to hide.


1. it's well known that McLaren don't let the drivers keep the trophies.
2. it's well known that McLaren is currently substantially better than Mercedes as a team
3. it's well known that McLaren is really anal about uniformity, & hamiltons the exact opposite
4. They are super controling of their drivers buisness dealings off the track.
5. between team screw-ups and reliability issues they have given away the WDC & WCC this year
6. they don't support a #1 status, and i don't care what anyone says, that is a hindrance when your 2 closests competitors do

I'm a Hamilton fan, and I'm sad to see him leave because i don't foresee him winning any races next year. Untimely though I think it's better for him to leave because McLaren is to controlling for the man he has become. It's only gotten worse under MW, and I think that doesn't bode well for Perez going forward.








#194 03011969

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:54

MW Is an idiot, plane an simple....

It's 'plain'.

Spot the idiot...

In fact you include so many mistakes in such a short time. Try: 'MW is an idiot, plain and simple'.

Edited by 3011969, 13 November 2012 - 08:57.


#195 slmk

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:21

But McLaren have been quite a bit better than Mercedes, as you seem to acknowledge below.



Anyway, all I am saying is that is going to be interesting to see how things work out. But anyone who doesn't think Lewis has taken a career risk is not facing facts.


In the grand scheme of things, no they are not. Lewis, despite a near flawless record in qualifying this season and 5 potential wins (of which 3 he actually won, 2 he retired from the lead), he still wouldn't have been in the title race due to team mishaps.

That's the thing. McLaren has been brought down by its own incompetence come race day. McLaren would have likely clinched both titles if it had 2012 pace and 2010 track-side operations.

#196 thesham01

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:21

It's 'plain'.

Spot the idiot...

In fact you include so many mistakes in such a short time. Try: 'MW is an idiot, plain and simple'.


If you bothered looking past the minor errors, you would have seen that he makes a good point; Whitmarshs quotes were not very well thought out. You would not see any other big TP saying those sort of things, in that manner.

Personally I am not bothered by what he said, but I do agree that he could have worded it far, far better.

#197 amppatel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:07

If you bothered looking past the minor errors, you would have seen that he makes a good point; Whitmarshs quotes were not very well thought out. You would not see any other big TP saying those sort of things, in that manner.

Personally I am not bothered by what he said, but I do agree that he could have worded it far, far better.


Words are for idiots, let the numbers do the talking and McLaren are WAY down...

#198 mattferg

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:12

In business world you would not survive, unless you are married to owner's daughter. Someone has to be accountable for some odd, what, fourteen years (?) of not being capable to bridge the gap between being best second team, and WCC crown. I am only superficially familiar with culture of UK based businesses, but I know quite well what would happen to you in US for such performance. People would tell you that you are good, but not good enough. After all, isn’t that how F1 treats its drivers?
We have these professional sport teams all over of which some are living for decades on glory of the past, going through much reorganization, starting over, yet with McLaren I think it is different. Being consistently bride's maid and never a bride must be driving fans crazy. What about stakeholders? While I am rooting for an opposing team, I am actually pleased over McLaren's self-destruction in 2012; from a different point of view I also think if this season doesn't trigger's changes within, than I am not sure what it takes that would, and it goes deeper than one driver is leaving, regretful or not.


I completely agree - whereas Williams is striving to hire new people, get better, return to the glory days, McLaren seems to be going backwards from 2009 onwards.

#199 thesham01

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:23

Words are for idiots, let the numbers do the talking and McLaren are WAY down...


At the end of the day if there was an advertisement for Team Principal, one of the duties listed would be 'being able to deal with the press'. And it would be pretty high up too, even though in reality he does far more important things. Whitmarsh is usually very likeable, one of the reasons he took over from Ron no doubt (anti-thesis and all that).

He got this slightly wrong I feel. It doesn't bother me one bit, but I bet the PR guys are having strong words with him about his wording.

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#200 Risil

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:33

I completely agree - whereas Williams is striving to hire new people, get better, return to the glory days, McLaren seems to be going backwards from 2009 onwards.


Really? I'd say their performance has been pretty consistent since the early 1990s. Rarely the outright quickest car (I'd say 1998 and 2005 were the only exceptions) but invariably strong enough to deliver wins, stability and investment in other parts of their business. Suspect the people who think Vettel's world championships belong to Hamilton, but for Whitmarsh's interference, are wearing red and white tinted glasses.

Edited by Risil, 13 November 2012 - 12:33.