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Whitmarsh on Hamilton, Merc deal, Lewis' regrets & Perez-Jenson pairing!


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#201 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:36

Really? I'd say their performance has been pretty consistent since the early 1990s. Rarely the outright quickest car (I'd say 1998 and 2005 were the only exceptions) but invariably strong enough to deliver wins, stability and investment in other parts of their business. Suspect the people who think Vettel's world championships belong to Hamilton, but for Whitmarsh's interference, are wearing red and white tinted glasses.


Good point, not only do they not often produce the outright quickest car, but it only seems to happen very rarely for them.

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#202 moorsey

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:46

Good point, not only do they not often produce the outright quickest car, but it only seems to happen very rarely for them.


And when they do have the quickest car they seem able to rectify that with bad strategies or dire pit stops. Certainly doesn't seem like a team on the "improvement" ladder to me.

#203 ayali

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:48

He got this slightly wrong I feel. It doesn't bother me one bit, but I bet the PR guys are having strong words with him about his wording.

I very much doubt that, these kind of promo interviews for F1.com have most likely been proof read by the PR guys before publication. Whitmarsh and McLaren have probably said exactly what they intended to say about Lewis and Perez.

#204 03011969

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:49

If you bothered looking past the minor errors, you would have seen that he makes a good point; Whitmarshs quotes were not very well thought out. You would not see any other big TP saying those sort of things, in that manner.

Personally I am not bothered by what he said, but I do agree that he could have worded it far, far better.

Whitmarsh's

And I disagree; I thought Whitmarsh's comments were fine and perfectly well thought out, especially given how emotional and easily wound up Lewis tends to be.

Edited by 3011969, 13 November 2012 - 12:49.


#205 7MGTEsup

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:47

This thread is funny, a lot of you make it sound like McLaren have fallen off the face of the earth since Whitmarsh took over and only Lewis has held them together. I would think in the last 7 years that only Ferrari have out scored McLaren, so being only beaten by the sports number 1 marque isn't a bad record. I agree with a few other people that a lot of formula 1 fans seem very soft and naive. They seem to have grown up in a world full of spin and bullshit where everyone kisses each others arse and says how great they are and how happy they are for them. This is sport people it should be full of emotion and agression and not people kissing each other on the cheek and calling eachother lovey.

#206 swerved

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 16:56

This thread is funny, a lot of you make it sound like McLaren have fallen off the face of the earth since Whitmarsh took over and only Lewis has held them together. I would think in the last 7 years that only Ferrari have out scored McLaren, so being only beaten by the sports number 1 marque isn't a bad record. I agree with a few other people that a lot of formula 1 fans seem very soft and naive. They seem to have grown up in a world full of spin and bullshit where everyone kisses each others arse and says how great they are and how happy they are for them. This is sport people it should be full of emotion and agression and not people kissing each other on the cheek and calling eachother lovey.



:up:

I had to laugh at the thought of the "PR guys" having strong words with Whitmarsh, I can just imagine that conversation

Matt: Erm Martin, can i have word please ?

Martin: Not right now, no.

Matt: Okay, some other time then.

Martin: Yeah, some other time, oh by the way, Matt ?

Matt: Yeah ?

Martin: That shirt, did you by any chance buy it off Eddie Jordan ?

#207 alframsey

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:40

Are people still banging on about this?

#208 Fox1

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:03

This thread is funny, a lot of you make it sound like McLaren have fallen off the face of the earth since Whitmarsh took over and only Lewis has held them together. I would think in the last 7 years that only Ferrari have out scored McLaren, so being only beaten by the sports number 1 marque isn't a bad record. I agree with a few other people that a lot of formula 1 fans seem very soft and naive. They seem to have grown up in a world full of spin and bullshit where everyone kisses each others arse and says how great they are and how happy they are for them. This is sport people it should be full of emotion and agression and not people kissing each other on the cheek and calling eachother lovey.

That's funny, because "spin, BS, and arse kissing" as you put it, are exactly why McLaren are in the position they're in. If you're content with second or even third or fourth, you have a loser's mentality to begin with. Many people are calling-out McLaren on their blatant screw-ups while others prefer it to be sugarcoated or ignored completely. That's the gist of most of the arguments in this thread. They lose their top driver and instead of properly assessing the driver market, they rush to sign Perez (one could assume) to beat Lewis' announcement to Merc. It's a trend folks.

Edited by Fox1, 14 November 2012 - 03:44.


#209 mlsnoopy

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 18:55

When was it when somebody claimed that F1 in no longer a sport.

Edited by mlsnoopy, 13 November 2012 - 18:56.


#210 FenderJaguar

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:33

Whitmarsh should some class and that he have a brain by wishing his driver good luck instead of talking about money. But then that is only for classy people.

#211 peroa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 17:34

Edd Straw in action. :smoking:
Too bad he didn't take time to review McLaren's last 4 races....
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104127

#212 peroa

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 17:39

"I was a little bit surprised to hear that because it's definitely not the case," said Hamilton on Thursday. "But I've got a great team and I've been with them a long time.
"I'm sure everyone has emotions within the team, but I'm still here giving 100 per cent to them for the last two races. Of course it's quite emotional for me but I'm very, very happy with my decision."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104240

I guess this round goes to Ham, Martin.

Edited by peroa, 15 November 2012 - 17:39.


#213 maverick69

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 18:02

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104240

I guess this round goes to Ham, Martin.


Classy reply from The Hammer.

#214 mattferg

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 18:04

This thread is funny, a lot of you make it sound like McLaren have fallen off the face of the earth since Whitmarsh took over and only Lewis has held them together. I would think in the last 7 years that only Ferrari have out scored McLaren, so being only beaten by the sports number 1 marque isn't a bad record. I agree with a few other people that a lot of formula 1 fans seem very soft and naive. They seem to have grown up in a world full of spin and bullshit where everyone kisses each others arse and says how great they are and how happy they are for them. This is sport people it should be full of emotion and agression and not people kissing each other on the cheek and calling eachother lovey.


Last seven years championships:

Red Bull: 4 (possibly six by the end of this season)
Renault: 4
Ferrari: 3 (possibly four by the end of this season)
Brawn: 2
McLaren: 1

Yeah, definitely only been outscored by the "top team" in F1 in the last 7 years...

Edited by mattferg, 15 November 2012 - 18:05.


#215 femi

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:28

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104240

I guess this round goes to Ham, Martin.



It is obvious who is the man and who the kid is in the room. I am willing to bet MW is going to come out and claim he was misquoted - lol

Edited by femi, 15 November 2012 - 22:29.


#216 ViMaMo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 03:32

Are people still banging on about this?


Hmm, u havent been hanging around autosport forums? .

Edited by ViMaMo, 16 November 2012 - 03:33.


#217 peroa

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 13:43

I smell someones pants on fire...

Jason
@Crucial_Xtreme
#F1 Lewis Hamilton tells F1 Racing Magazine that McLaren offered him £13.5m per year & Mercedes offered almost £20m per year



#218 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 13:50

I smell someones pants on fire...

Perhaps that was Mclaren's original offer.

#219 PretentiousBread

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 14:54

I smell someones pants on fire...


Is this news? I read that weeks ago and thought it was common knowledge?

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#220 paulrobs

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:26

I've had a think about this some more and I think Ron Dennis rattled Martin Whitmarsh's cage and told him to go on the offensive because McLaren were not coming out of the Hamilton leaving thing is a very good light. Whitmarsh then criticised Hamilton a number of times. It was just out of charecter and something made him do it and I suspect he was told to do it. We'll never know and speculation on my part.

#221 garoidb

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 16:44

I asked this a while back, but anyway: do we have any way of knowing whether this was a close run decision for Lewis or whether it was just played out that way for PR purposes. In other words, was there ever ANY chance that he wasn't going to take the Mercedes offer. I have yet to see anything to make me think it wasn't a slam dunk decision.

#222 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:37

I asked this a while back, but anyway: do we have any way of knowing whether this was a close run decision for Lewis or whether it was just played out that way for PR purposes. In other words, was there ever ANY chance that he wasn't going to take the Mercedes offer. I have yet to see anything to make me think it wasn't a slam dunk decision.

If Lewis has even a few brain cells up there, it should have been a difficult decision to make.

#223 P123

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:48

I asked this a while back, but anyway: do we have any way of knowing whether this was a close run decision for Lewis or whether it was just played out that way for PR purposes. In other words, was there ever ANY chance that he wasn't going to take the Mercedes offer. I have yet to see anything to make me think it wasn't a slam dunk decision.


You could always interrogate Whitmarsh, Dennis, Hamilton or Brawn......... otherwise, erm no... but the time taken to make the decision should perhaps be a decent clue for you to look at.

#224 SophieB

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 17:51

I asked this a while back, but anyway: do we have any way of knowing whether this was a close run decision for Lewis or whether it was just played out that way for PR purposes. In other words, was there ever ANY chance that he wasn't going to take the Mercedes offer. I have yet to see anything to make me think it wasn't a slam dunk decision.


Well, in my opinion there's stuff to support Lewis's words about it being a close call. A couple of days before the announcement, Niki Lauda denied he'd ever been offered any job at Mercedes and said Lewis wouldn't be leaving McLaren. Journalists like Benson were reporting gossip that they were expecting to hear Macca had done enough at the last minute and in my opinion, Martin Whitmarsh did indeed suddenly sound and look a lot more confident. Plus Lewis said in an interview that when he called Martin to give him the news, he believed Martin thought Lewis was going to tell him he was staying.

I believe him when he said he really did waver back and forth on the decision.

Edited by SophieB, 07 December 2012 - 17:52.


#225 garoidb

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:00

You could always interrogate Whitmarsh, Dennis, Hamilton or Brawn......... otherwise, erm no... but the time taken to make the decision should perhaps be a decent clue for you to look at.


We only really know the time taken to announce the decision. This is my point, really.

#226 garoidb

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:11

Well, in my opinion there's stuff to support Lewis's words about it being a close call. A couple of days before the announcement, Niki Lauda denied he'd ever been offered any job at Mercedes and said Lewis wouldn't be leaving McLaren. Journalists like Benson were reporting gossip that they were expecting to hear Macca had done enough at the last minute and in my opinion, Martin Whitmarsh did indeed suddenly sound and look a lot more confident. Plus Lewis said in an interview that when he called Martin to give him the news, he believed Martin thought Lewis was going to tell him he was staying.

I believe him when he said he really did waver back and forth on the decision.


Whitmarsh could easily have believed Lewis was going to stay, even if there was no chance whatsoever of it happening. I don't think Lauda or Benson really matter that much. Lewis has to say it was a close call, particularly while still driving for McLaren.

My point is that, even if Lewis would never entertain staying with McL, the whole thing would unfold as it has anyway. He could not be seen to snub them, especially with championship still possible at the early stages. Equally, McLaren could have been playing the PR game, making it look like they wanted to keep Lewis but deliberately doing just not quite enough.

What we are left with is that Lewis did indeed opt for Mercedes, and I simply am not convinced that this wasn't always inevitable.

Edit: By the way, this is not a criticism of any party.

Edited by garoidb, 07 December 2012 - 18:12.


#227 BillBald

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:39

Well, in my opinion there's stuff to support Lewis's words about it being a close call. A couple of days before the announcement, Niki Lauda denied he'd ever been offered any job at Mercedes and said Lewis wouldn't be leaving McLaren. Journalists like Benson were reporting gossip that they were expecting to hear Macca had done enough at the last minute and in my opinion, Martin Whitmarsh did indeed suddenly sound and look a lot more confident. Plus Lewis said in an interview that when he called Martin to give him the news, he believed Martin thought Lewis was going to tell him he was staying.

I believe him when he said he really did waver back and forth on the decision.


I think there was some wavering, but only because McLaren had just won 3 races in a row, and were starting to look like the best team, which would inevitably have caused some hesitation.

But then came the retirement at Singapore, which reminded Lewis of why he'd decided to leave...



#228 Craven Morehead

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:45

Name a driver who hasn't done so. The real point is that despite all the adversity Lewis has gone through with McLaren, he's never been known as person who speaks negatively about the team. The same cannot be said about a lot of other drivers on the grid, yet they get remarkably less crap thrown at them for their prima donna moments.


What adversity? They gave him a damn good car 5 yrs out of 6, and they've always supported him when he gaffed. Many a driver on the grid go their entire career wishing for the opportunity to be faced with such "advesrity".

Edited by Craven Morehead, 07 December 2012 - 18:46.


#229 f1fastestlap

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 18:54

What adversity? They gave him a damn good car 5 yrs out of 6,and they've always supported him when he gaffed. Many a driver on the grid go their entire career wishing for the opportunity to be faced with such "advesrity".


When it did not broke down... Oh and he supported them when they gaffed too...
That's "adversrity"...

#230 undersquare

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 19:16

What adversity? They gave him a damn good car 5 yrs out of 6, and they've always supported him when he gaffed. Many a driver on the grid go their entire career wishing for the opportunity to be faced with such "advesrity".

It's all relative. He's had more adversity than Nando and Sebi. The fact that he's had a better car than Kovy or Hulk is no use to him.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp that a car good enough for 2nd or 3rd or 4th, year after year, is not good enough.

And as for gaffes, that equation is seriously one-sided.

#231 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 20:23

It's all relative. He's had more adversity than Nando and Sebi.

He's been in a top team his entire F1 career. :well:

#232 undersquare

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 22:41

He's been in a top team his entire F1 career. :well:


I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp that a car good enough for 2nd or 3rd or 4th, year after year, is not good enough.

#233 Rinehart

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 23:57

What adversity? They gave him a damn good car 5 yrs out of 6, and they've always supported him when he gaffed. Many a driver on the grid go their entire career wishing for the opportunity to be faced with such "advesrity".


Yeah what a stretch. Mclaren built a car quick enough to take the title in 07, 08, 10 and 12. I'm a Jenson fan and I accept the fact that the drivers share the blame for that. Certain fans don't of course. The bottom line is the only sustained adversity at Mclaren has got nothing to do with the car.

#234 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 00:02

Yeah what a stretch. Mclaren built a car quick enough to take the title in 07, 08, 10 and 12. I'm a Jenson fan and I accept the fact that the drivers share the blame for that. Certain fans don't of course. The bottom line is the only sustained adversity at Mclaren has got nothing to do with the car.

07 and 08, I don't think so in 10 or 12...

#235 gricey1981

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 00:13

07 and 08, I don't think so in 10 or 12...


+1 also i think Macca and Jenson had more to do with not winning in 12. Hamilton didnt put a foot wrong all season.

#236 Cult

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 00:18

The McLaren probably wasn't the fastest car in any of those four years.

2007 - Ferrari had the edge just about over the season, Massa and Raikkonen made a lot of errors early on and the McLaren drivers were generally better.
2008 - Ferrari again had a marginally better car, look at how many fastest laps etc. the car had.
2010 - Red Bull definitely had the fastest car
2012 - Hard to tell but Red Bull had the better overall package.

#237 genespleen

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 00:51

MW: "I hope he thinks today that he’s made an awful mistake and I hope he thinks that next year."

That's cold.

Looks like bridges have been burned.


Come now; exercise some imagination. Imagine, for instance, that Whitmarsh gave a few chuckles as he said that (which he may very well have, after all). Wouldn't that affect the (oh-so-dire) meaning of his statement?

Tempest in a teapot, folks. It's the off-season, and journos are stirring the pot. Why help them?

#238 garoidb

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:23

It's all relative. He's had more adversity than Nando and Sebi. The fact that he's had a better car than Kovy or Hulk is no use to him.


Than Fernando? Over what time period?

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp that a car good enough for 2nd or 3rd or 4th, year after year, is not good enough.


So it seems, but it remains to be seen whether this attitude is in his long term best interests.

#239 Craven Morehead

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:07

When it did not broke down... Oh and he supported them when they gaffed too...
That's "adversrity"...


So, since the Mac is so unreliable, he's taking Schumacher's seat at Mercedes? If anything, Michael's car was worse; talk about adversity.

I really like Lewis, so I hope they can give him a decent car. I want to see him mixing it up at the front and challenging for the championship with the other big players. Seems to me his best chance of doing that would have been to stay with Mac.


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#240 Peter Perfect

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:05

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp that a car good enough for 2nd or 3rd or 4th, year after year, is not good enough.

That sounds distinctly like you think Hamilton needs the best car on the grid to be able to win. I thought that was Buttons prerogative? :confused:

So, since the Mac is so unreliable, he's taking Schumacher's seat at Mercedes? If anything, Michael's car was worse; talk about adversity.

I really like Lewis, so I hope they can give him a decent car. I want to see him mixing it up at the front and challenging for the championship with the other big players. Seems to me his best chance of doing that would have been to stay with Mac.

:up:

#241 velgajski1

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:38

Yeah what a stretch. Mclaren built a car quick enough to take the title in 07, 08, 10 and 12. I'm a Jenson fan and I accept the fact that the drivers share the blame for that. Certain fans don't of course. The bottom line is the only sustained adversity at Mclaren has got nothing to do with the car.


10 - Maybe, but in the end Lewis didn't do anymore mistakes than Vettel/Alonso yet finished behind both. He needed to have a perfect season, with them having their avg seasons to win title.
12 - Car was best, but racing operations were by far worst if you look at top 3 teams. Lewis would win title before last race had McLaren did a decent job with him.

07 - Lets not get too deep into that, but yeah, it was probably best performance from McLaren team (drivers aside) in last 10 seasons and it is mostly drivers that screwed up here.
08 - Lewis did win the title, and won it in an inferior machinery (yeah, he was lucky in that Kimi had horrible season and Massa's best season still wasn't that good given he had a fairly bad start into season)

I'm looking forward to 2013. season, but I have to admit I'm not expecting much. Button will take the title given a really great car/support, but wheter McLaren can actually compete with RBR/Ferrari - and really make something fantastic - not convinced.

Edited by velgajski1, 08 December 2012 - 07:45.


#242 undersquare

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:09

Than Fernando? Over what time period?

So it seems, but it remains to be seen whether this attitude is in his long term best interests.

Nando did 2 years at Renault, then should have won in 2010 and again this year probably if he hadn't moved over on Kimi in Suzuka and had been faster relative to Massa at the end. That's infinitely better than a succession of 2/3/4th

Yes of course it remains to be seen. But McLaren are probably as good as they can be, and it's not quite good enough to WIN.

#243 undersquare

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:18

That sounds distinctly like you think Hamilton needs the best car on the grid to be able to win. I thought that was Buttons prerogative? :confused:

It doesn't sound like that at all lol. It sounds like me saying he's only had a car good enough for HIM to be 2/3/4. Either too slow. too unreliable, or too badly raced from the pits, or all three.

#244 garoidb

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:19

Nando did 2 years at Renault, then should have won in 2010 and again this year probably if he hadn't moved over on Kimi in Suzuka and had been faster relative to Massa at the end. That's infinitely better than a succession of 2/3/4th


So first we gloss over the difference between McLaren and Renault in 2008 and 2009, and then fantasise that Fernando had the best WDC opportunity in 2010 and 2012? Well, there is no need for further discussion on that one.

Yes of course it remains to be seen. But McLaren are probably as good as they can be, and it's not quite good enough to WIN.


They win, but I no longer expect Lewis fans to even see that.

#245 Peter Perfect

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:31

It doesn't sound like that at all lol. It sounds like me saying he's only had a car good enough for HIM to be 2/3/4. Either too slow. too unreliable, or too badly raced from the pits, or all three.

Fair enough point, you mean like 2011 when the car was only good enough for HIM to finish 5th in the WDC?

#246 P123

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:32

Yeah what a stretch. Mclaren built a car quick enough to take the title in 07, 08, 10 and 12. I'm a Jenson fan and I accept the fact that the drivers share the blame for that. Certain fans don't of course. The bottom line is the only sustained adversity at Mclaren has got nothing to do with the car.


It is silly to gloss over the fact that speed is only one aspect to a championship winning car. An example would be 2010, where the only reason you see McLaren as quick enough is because you ignore the reliability problems of the quicker Red Bull. Without those, the championship would have been a no contest. Similarly 2012- McLaren most certainly quick enough, but operationally, and reliability wise, the team wasn't sharp enough to capitalise fully on the speed of the car.

#247 undersquare

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:42

Fair enough point, you mean like 2011 when the car was only good enough for HIM to finish 5th in the WDC?

If you're just posting trying to score a cheap point...

#248 undersquare

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:50

So first we gloss over the difference between McLaren and Renault in 2008 and 2009, and then fantasise that Fernando had the best WDC opportunity in 2010 and 2012? Well, there is no need for further discussion on that one.

They win, but I no longer expect Lewis fans to even see that.

Perhaps I shouldn't have expected an Alonso fan to appreciate that a car good enough to seriously challenge for the wdc in one year is infinitely better for an f1 driver than 5 years of a car that's good enough to fight for second place.

Or that a few race wins does not mean a wdc challenge.

#249 Peter Perfect

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 13:23

If you're just posting trying to score a cheap point...

No. Cheap points go in the Hamilton/Button Retrospective. I'm posting to dispute your theory that McLaren never gave HIM a car capable of winning the WDC, and therefore couldn't give him one in the future.

2007 - Just missed out
2008 - He won it
2009 - Weak car at the start but finished strongly
2010 - 2nd in the WCC
2011 - Good enough for his donkey of a teammate to get 2nd
2012 - Fast enough but not good enough reliability

Aside from the beginning of 2009 the car has been either the best or 2nd best for 6 years. If you're going to argue that McLaren haven't given him a decent shot at the WDC you'd have to say neither has anyone else on the grid bar Red Bull.

#250 garoidb

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 13:49

Perhaps I shouldn't have expected an Alonso fan to appreciate that a car good enough to seriously challenge for the wdc in one year is infinitely better for an f1 driver than 5 years of a car that's good enough to fight for second place.

Or that a few race wins does not mean a wdc challenge.


What on earth are you talking about? To begin with, Hamilton won the WDC in one of those 5 years. Secondly, Alonso has not won the WDC in any of those years and has not had the best or equal best car. Hamilton has certainly had more competitive machinery over the past five seasons than Alonso.