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Making Electric Vehicles work!


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#201 Canuck

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 17:41

Hey - now that's using your noodle.

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#202 gruntguru

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:51

I suppose you could recharge a capacitor bank at home even when the car isn't there and then use that to quick charge the capacitors in the car for a quick getaway.

If you had such a storage device at home you could also recharge it at off-peak prices and sell the energy back to the utility at peak rates.

#203 Catalina Park

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:24

If you had such a storage device at home you could also recharge it at off-peak prices and sell the energy back to the utility at peak rates.

And if the storage device was large enough you could make enough money to buy gasoline and not have to worry about charging an electric car.


#204 Tony Matthews

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:47

^ :)

#205 Catalina Park

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:37

I was driving a hybrid last week. The alternator died in my Ford Telstar so I had to take a battery charger to work and plug the car in to get enough power to make it home.

#206 bigleagueslider

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 03:48

If you had such a storage device at home you could also recharge it at off-peak prices and sell the energy back to the utility at peak rates.


Unfortunately, this is not the way things work here in the US at present. This is similar to how utilities handle the output from residential solar systems. If you have a PV solar system that is grid-connected, your monthly bill is based on your net monthly usage shown by the meter. And even if you produce more power than you use for the month, you are not paid for that surplus power. Additionally, here in California residential utility power prices are based on a tiered rate structure, and not a demand-based rate structure. The tiered rate structure bases rates on how much power is used. You are allotted a baseline amount of power each month at a low rate. Any power usage above the baseline is priced at 4 tier levels with steeply higher rates. If you need to recharge your EV more than about 3 or 4 times per month, you will easily exceed the baseline limit. Tier 2 kW-hr rates are about 25% higher than baseline, and tier 3 rates are about 50% higher.

To be honest, here in California it would be far more economical to purchase a NG Honda Civic. You can fuel the car at home using Honda's compressor system, with NG supplied by the gas utility. Residential NG is subject to price controls so prices are very stable, plus it is not subject to the huge sales and excise taxes paid on gasoline and diesel.

#207 Canuck

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 04:26

I can't imagine the good folks in the gov. letting that go on for long. Purple gas, farm diesel etc.

#208 mariner

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:06

The latest pronoucement from the EU Transprt commisioner ( the guy in charge of transport legistlation for all the EU).

http://www.trl.co.uk...t_801554909.htm

Basically, we will pass laws to make you drive electric cars but " private industry" will pay so we dont have to fund the cost .

Despite a range of models now available electric car sales in the EU are , effectively, zero.

I'm not saying if they are good or bad but nobody much buys them.

What annoys me about the EU is that they pass a law imposing CAFE type fuel economy regulations stretching out several years which is already dramatically reducing car CO2 then see the need to introduce another law five minutes later. - crazy.

There is a bigger issue now loaming in the EU because fuel taxes are very high and pay for a lot of govt spending. Without getting all political you could say simply that the EU has " free" state medical care funded by $8.50/gallon fuel whereas the US has "no" state medical care but $3.50/gallon fuel.

Im not taking sides in THAT debate but it sort of highlights the problem now facing EU governments - success at reducing car CO2 will drive down government revenue and that will force cuts in critical budgets. The Uk response is to look at switching fuel duty to road pricing etc but then the ecnomics of electric cars collapse because the fuel differnece no longer includes the $5/gallon tax unique to non-electic cars

Maybe the Eu commisioner can see that problem coming so needs to mandate electric cars as they lose that tax advantage versus petrol/diesel!


#209 TC3000

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 19:16

Norway shows the way with electric cars, but at what cost?

#210 Rasputin

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 05:23

Tesla are already doing much better than that, with a heavy. high performance car.
. . . . . . .
. . . and yes, it does have air conditioning.


No they don't.

Even with a very generous efficency ratio of 3 to 1, a battery with 50 kWh of useful electricity is still no more than the equivalent of 15 liters (4 US gallons)of gasoline.

Edited by Rasputin, 31 March 2013 - 05:28.


#211 gruntguru

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 00:39

Even with a very generous efficency ratio of 3 to 1, a battery with 50 kWh of useful electricity is still no more than the equivalent of 15 liters (4 US gallons)of gasoline.

Nothing generous about 3:1. A Prius might approach 33% conversion effeiciency (ie 3:1) - plus it matches EV's in its ability to harvest braking. Non-hybrid gasolene cars are probably closer to 20% conversion efficiency (ie 5:1 compared to EV) in city driving and don't have regen braking.

#212 Nemo1965

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:05


I don't know if somebody posed this question, the thread is quite long, but...

WHY would we want to make electric vehicles work? Okay, they don't exhale black fumes, but I believe extensive studies show that the carbon footprint of electric cars (ha!) is not much lighter than petrol cars. The only advantage I can think of, is that it's relatively easy for citizens to harnass electric energy (windmills, solarpanels) from the enviroment on a small scale (and use it for our car) while it's very hard for the citizen to harnass oil from the ground (not in my garden, I can tell you!) and refine it and use it for your car.

So, again the question: do we know, with any certainty, that the electric car is greener and better than the petrol car?

#213 Kalmake

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 12:54

Zero local pollution is a big advantage in cities.

#214 desmo

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 14:13

Asking if an electric car is green is like asking if a electric grid is green. It's essentially as green as the power input into the grid. Could be anywhere from quite good to terrible.

#215 Rasputin

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 15:17

Nothing generous about 3:1. A Prius might approach 33% conversion effeiciency (ie 3:1) - plus it matches EV's in its ability to harvest braking. Non-hybrid gasolene cars are probably closer to 20% conversion efficiency (ie 5:1 compared to EV) in city driving and don't have regen braking.


I was of course referring to the efficiency ratio between an ICE and an Electric driveline, if the ICE is 30% and Electric 90%, that's a 3:1 efficiency ratio.

This means that the 50 kWh of useful electrical battery storage in the Tesla, equals 15 liters and not 5, when one liter of gas/diesel is about 10 kWh.

#216 Superbar

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 16:29

I don't know if somebody posed this question, the thread is quite long, but...

WHY would we want to make electric vehicles work? Okay, they don't exhale black fumes, but I believe extensive studies show that the carbon footprint of electric cars (ha!) is not much lighter than petrol cars.


OK, let's say we take the most carbon intensive "dirty" electricity you can find, coal, and use it to power a car, you end up with a number for gram of carbon per km of about 40 to 50. Not that impressive if you consider that the best IC cars now get 90 to 100 gram per km. BUT, and it's an important but, if you are going to make the "well to wheel" argument for the electric car you should do the same for the IC car. What about the carbon produced by the oil industry before the petrol even reaches the gas station? There are no official numbers for this. Those who would now, the oil industry, doesn't want to tell. The estimate I have seen is that an IC car that produce 120 gram/km tailpipe, will produce a total of 300 to 400 gram/km of carbon when the pollution of the oil industry is included.

Note: I basically used the argument in this video for my reply:

Edited by Superbar, 01 April 2013 - 16:39.


#217 Greg Locock

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 22:48

What about the carbon produced by the oil industry before the petrol even reaches the gas station? There are no official numbers for this. Those who would now, the oil industry, doesn't want to tell.


When you switch stupid paranoia mode off and actually search for the number it turns out that that well to bowser efficiency numbers are well known and widely reported. 85-87%

Of course now that you know that number you can expect large wads of cash to appear on your desk every week to keep it secret.

#218 Canuck

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 00:14

I'm confused by that number Greg - if the ICE is only 20 something percent efficient, how is well to wheel 85-87%?

#219 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:38

I'm confused by that number Greg - if the ICE is only 20 something percent efficient, how is well to wheel 85-87%?

It isn't well to wheel it is well to bowser.

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#220 bigleagueslider

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:00

Blaming oil companies for all of the CO2 emissions produced by usage of gasoline/diesel/jet fuel is somewhat dishonest. The majority of these CO2 emissions are produced by the end user of the fuel (drivers, airlines, railroads, truckers, etc.), and not by the oil companies.

The debate over IC vs. EV/hybrid total vehicle lifecycle energy usage is also quite relevant. In these terms, current BE hybrids are not significantly better than many IC powered vehicles.

#221 Canuck

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:32

It isn't well to wheel it is well to bowser.

Had to google that. Bowser- an unattractive woman, a canine, Aussie slang for fuel pump. There - I'm learned up now.

#222 Tony Matthews

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:02

A bowser is just a big fuel or water tank on wheels, either self propelled or, more usually I think, towed.

#223 Superbar

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:57

...search for the number it turns out that that well to bowser efficiency numbers are well known and widely reported. 85-87%



Blaming oil companies for all of the CO2 emissions produced by usage of gasoline/diesel/jet fuel is somewhat dishonest. The majority of these CO2 emissions are produced by the end user of the fuel (drivers, airlines, railroads, truckers, etc.), and not by the oil companies.


The argument was not about blame, it was about carbon footprint. To sum it up: it is dishonest to not include the carbon produced by the oil industry when calculating the carbon footprint of an IC vehicle, if you include the carbon produced by the power industry when calculating the carbon footprint of an electric vehicle. Accept this first, then you can argue about the numbers.

#224 Tony Matthews

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 23:39

A bowser is just a big fuel or water tank on wheels, either self propelled or, more usually I think, towed.

Now there's a coincidence! Having not used or heard the word 'bowser' for bloody years, I had a phonecall from a colleague earlier today, from France where he is hollidaying. Could I go to the building we use as a tool store ASAP and check the water? This building is on farmland, and a main water supply comes up into 'our' building, out into a disused milking parlour and up to a stable yard and then to some fields, where it supplies a couple of animal troughs. There is no water and this may be due to frost attacking the pipework at source. Apparently the sheep in the top field are getting their water "from a bowser"! Funny old world...

#225 Greg Locock

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 00:58

Boring story alert (just for rasputin). In oz they are known as Furphy's, and in WW1 when we helped save one branch of the German Royal family from being defeated by another branch of the German Royal family, they were used to take water to the front for the troops. So, any story of gossip is known as a Furphy, a phrase almost directly equivalent to watercooler gossip. Here's one http://www.abc.net.a...er-tank/3182834 and we have a very similar one in our Botanic Gardens.

#226 Hoax

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:58

A Formula One forum and no one even mention the GMD T27 created by the formula one designer Gordon Murray? With 35 hp and 105 km/h maybe it hasn't got F1 performance.

More like 80 kW.hr.

According to THIS POST 20 Kw is all it takes for a medium size car to maintain 120 km/hr. From the same post we get estimates of 4 km/MJ highway (100 km/hr) and 3 km/MJ urban. 1 kW.hr = 3.6 MJ or about 10 km urban so 80 kW.hr should give 800 km.

For comparison, Tesla claim 300 miles (480 km) from their model S with 85 kW.hr battery and that is a heavy, high performance car. 800 km from a medium sedan with an 80 kW.hr, 5X (lightweight) battery is very realistic.

The T27 specs claims 100-130 miles/160-210 km depending on test cycle with a 13 KWh battery. That equals 12-16 km/KWh compared to Teslas 5-6 km/KWh.

Edited by Hoax, 03 April 2013 - 06:59.