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F1 drivers - weakest tracks


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#1 BorkoF2012

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:42

What do you think, which tracks are worst for a certain driver? Today's drivers or drivers from the past.

My opinion:

Vettel - he pretty much won on every track, except on his home GP's Nirburgring and Hockenheim, and in Canada. I'd say his weakest track is Gilles Villeneuve.
Alonso - Spa without a doubt. I'll just say Massa beat him in qualifying there twice in a row. He has never been particularly good in Istanbul as well.
Raikkonen - I think Hockenheim.
Webber - his home track for sure
Hamilton - Interlagos
Button - easily Silverstone
Massa - Sepang and Albert Park
MSC - Istanbul for him. He won there 3 times, but he has never been so special in Silverstone as well.

Edited by BorkoF2012, 11 November 2012 - 10:43.


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#2 SpaMaster

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:46

I remember seeing a subject like this discussed few weeks back. But I am not able to easily relate to the idea of finding the weakest track for a driver.


#3 BorkoF2012

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:13

Really? I didn't see that topic. If there was, I am sorry, delete this one

#4 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:34

What do you think, which tracks are worst for a certain driver? Today's drivers or drivers from the past.

My opinion:

Vettel - he pretty much won on every track, except on his home GP's Nirburgring and Hockenheim, and in Canada. I'd say his weakest track is Gilles Villeneuve.
Alonso - Spa without a doubt. I'll just say Massa beat him in qualifying there twice in a row. He has never been particularly good in Istanbul as well.
Raikkonen - I think Hockenheim.
Webber - his home track for sure
Hamilton - Interlagos
Button - easily Silverstone
Massa - Sepang and Albert Park
MSC - Istanbul for him. He won there 3 times, but he has never been so special in Silverstone as well.


I agree with some of these, but some of them are very strange choices indeed:

Vettel at Montreal? He's outqualified Mark there the last 3 occasions, scoring pole in the last two. Looks every bit as quick there as Alonso and Hamilton are. I'd put Nurburgring as his weakest (that I'd partly to do with Webber always being so good there though). Monaco is another one he's not normally great at, bar the anomaly of 2011 which seemed to have a lot to do with the EBD and his driving style, giving him a massive amount of confidence under braking and on throttle.

Massa at Sepang? Scored back to back poles there in '07 and '08. He was in a dominant car both times sure, but outqualified Raikkonen quite easily.

Webber's pace itself at Melbourne is fine, but his record is terrible I agree. However, I think his worst track is probably Singapore, had always been rubbish there, which is a bit strange because conversely Monaco is one of his best tracks!




#5 BorkoF2012

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:49

Vettel at Montreal? He's outqualified Mark there the last 3 occasions, scoring pole in the last two. Looks every bit as quick there as Alonso and Hamilton are. I'd put Nurburgring as his weakest (that I'd partly to do with Webber always being so good there though). Monaco is another one he's not normally great at, bar the anomaly of 2011 which seemed to have a lot to do with the EBD and his driving style, giving him a massive amount of confidence under braking and on throttle.

Massa at Sepang? Scored back to back poles there in '07 and '08. He was in a dominant car both times sure, but outqualified Raikkonen quite easily.

It's hard to tell which track is Vettel's weakest since he is winning so much in the last 4 years. I might be wrong about Montreal, but surely it's not on of his best tracks.

Massa at Sepang was embarassing in 2007, 2008 and 2012.

Alonso had some very bad races in Montreal as well. It's Hamilton's track.

#6 scheivlak

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:55

Really? I didn't see that topic. If there was, I am sorry, delete this one

I can't remember a really recent one too.
It is a topic however that comes up every few years, this was a 2009 thread for reference: http://forums.autosp...w...85&hl=worst

#7 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:59

It's hard to tell which track is Vettel's weakest since he is winning so much in the last 4 years. I might be wrong about Montreal, but surely it's not on of his best tracks.

Massa at Sepang was embarassing in 2007, 2008 and 2012.

Alonso had some very bad races in Montreal as well. It's Hamilton's track.


I look at qualifying, and even free practice a lot more than the races themselves, reason being that the races have too many variables, they're too circumstantial, and the mistakes we see drivers make usually could have happened at any circuit. For example, you said Massa was embarrassing at Sepang in '07 and '08, yet in 07 that was a case of poor racecraft - not unusual for Felipe - and in '08 it was a case of him overdriving the car after losing out to Kimi on strategy - again could have been the case anywhere else. I don't see that the circuit itself was the main reason behind these errors.

#8 joshb

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:05

Dunno if its Webber but I've never fancied Seb round Monaco, and he's rarely gone mega round Spa (despite recent results) or Nurburgring (or Webber is mega there). Hungary is an unlucky track- good in qualy, less so in races there.


#9 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:45

I think it's a bit of a myth that any of the top drivers have bad tracks. Vettel has never really performed very well in Germany but that's probably a pressure thing?

Alonso's race at Spa last year was mega although for some reason he tends to under-perform in qualifying, he also comfortably beat Hamilton all weekend in 2007. He's also had some scrappy races at Canada but some great races too.

#10 tomboyracer

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:49

I can't remember Schumi ever having a good race at Singapore. Webber doesn't really enjoy Abu Dhabi either, 'car park' and all that!

#11 BorkoF2012

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 13:12

He's also had some scrappy races at Canada but some great races too.

Unfortunately many more bad than good.

#12 Kingshark

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 14:10

Vettel - Nurburgring
Webber - Abu Dhabi
Alonso - Spa
Massa - Albert Park
Hamilton - Suzuka
Button - Silverstone
Schumacher - Shanghai
Rosberg - Barcelona
Raikkonen - Interlagos

#13 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 14:21

Hamilton - Interlagos

Until recently, I would have said Monza was Hamilton's bogey track, but he went and won that.

07: 2nd to Alonso's first.
08: Recovery drive to 7th after the Q screwup.
09: Last lap crash from third.
10: First lap crash, the turning point when the season went wrong. Button 2nd.
11: 4th to Button's 2nd.

As far as Interlagos goes, I think that's been more him and/or the team screwing up under championship pressure rather than the track itself. Certainly, '09 showed he can put in decent performances there. The complete list of his success by track follows. Technically his least successful haunt has been Buddh, however he first visit coincided with the low point of his career, while this year his fourth was respectable. I'd like it to give is a few more years before I claim a trend. Ditto Magny Cours. Therefore I'd nominate Suzuka; first time out he managed a respectable but not outstanding third but has sinced managed three fifths, each time losing out to Button.

WON
Hungary.........1,1,1,4,5,DNF
Montreal........1,1,1,DNF,DNF
Shanghai........1,1,2,3,6,DNF
Melbourne.......1,2,3,3,6,DSQ
Silverstone.....1,2,3,4,8,16
Monza...........1,2,4,7,DNF,DNF
Spa.............1,3,4,DNF,DNF,DNF
Istanbul........1,2,4,5,13
Monaco..........1,2,5,5,6,12
Abu Dhabi.......1,2,DNF,DNF
Singapore.......1,3,5,DNF,DNF
Hockenheim......1,4,DNF
Nurburgring.....1,9,18
Fuji............1,12
Indy............1

PODIUM ONLY
Valencia........2,2,2,4,DNF
Barcelona.......2,2,3,8,9,DNF
Korea...........2,2,10
Bahrain.........2,3,4,8,13
Sepang..........2,3,5,6,7,8
Brazil..........3,4,5,7,DNF
Suzuka..........3,5,5,5
Magny Cours.....3,10,

NEVER ON PODIUM
Buddh...........4,7

Edited by MrAerodynamicist, 11 November 2012 - 14:37.


#14 olliek88

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 14:29

Vettel - Nurburgring
Webber - Abu Dhabi
Alonso - Spa
Massa - Albert Park
Hamilton - Suzuka
Button - Silverstone
Schumacher - Shanghai
Rosberg - Barcelona
Raikkonen - Interlagos


Hard to argue with them although the Hamilton at Suzuka one i'm not so sure about, he seems to struggle at Silverstone (bar 2008 obviously), especially on the old layout with Priory in particular.

However i guess a lot of it is down to circumstance and how the car suits (or doesn't) a circuit.

#15 Jackmancer

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 15:13

I think Sarrazin and Sao Paulo.

#16 Disgrace

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 15:56

I think Sarrazin and Sao Paulo.


:lol: :up:

#17 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:29

Raikkonen seems to struggle in general when racing in Germany. In the sixteen F1 races he has run in the country, he has 10 retirements, one non-scoring finish, and three podiums (all three of which were 3rd places). He failed to finish both the German and European Grands Prix from 2003 through 2005.

I would also say Alonso isn't that good in China. He won in 2005 but in the last couple of years he hasn't been terribly impressive (9th this year and 7th in 2011, behind Massa).



#18 scheivlak

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:41

Raikkonen seems to struggle in general when racing in Germany. In the sixteen F1 races he has run in the country, he has 10 retirements, one non-scoring finish, and three podiums (all three of which were 3rd places). He failed to finish both the German and European Grands Prix from 2003 through 2005.

But that's rather a case of continuous bad luck than being weak.
Just look at 2003: retiring from a very healthy lead at the 'Ring and an innocent victim of a first lap crash at Hockenheim. Both his 2004 GPs in Germany were among the more competitive ones from that year and we all remember 2005....

#19 pingu666

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 16:52

interlagos probably is lewis's weakest track, but hes oddly good at 90degree corners, so he might be amazing around the indy oval :D

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#20 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:06

Hamilton's worst track is easily Sepang. I can't believe nobody has said it.

Hamilton had a great drives in 2007 and 2009 in Interlagos, the problem has usually been that the car was crap.

#21 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:21

Hamilton's worst track is easily Sepang. I can't believe nobody has said it.

Hamilton had a great drives in 2007 and 2009 in Interlagos, the problem has usually been that the car was crap.


Could you elaborate what you're basing that on? Barring his very first outing there in 2007, in any dry session he's looked very competitive. Managed pole there this year despite mucking up the final corner, and that was at a stage of the season when JB was happiest with his car too.

#22 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:27

Could you elaborate what you're basing that on? Barring his very first outing there in 2007, in any dry session he's looked very competitive. Managed pole there this year despite mucking up the final corner, and that was at a stage of the season when JB was happiest with his car too.


He's always had bad results in the races.

#23 joshb

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:30

He's always had bad results in the races.


thats why i didn't put Vettel/Hungary in threre. He's not had the results in the races but his pace has been OK (2 poles and a net pole in 2009 too)

#24 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:34

thats why i didn't put Vettel/Hungary in threre. He's not had the results in the races but his pace has been OK (2 poles and a net pole in 2009 too)


What is a "net" pole?

#25 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:34

He's always had bad results in the races.


This is a problem I see in this thread, the actual end of race results are completely circumstantial, so why is everyone basing their opinions on them? Unless a driver has a habit of being slow at a particular race event, then I almost ignore the race results, or look to them last as an indicator of how good the driver is at a particular circuit.

#26 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:34

What is a "net" pole?


I'm assuming he means fuel corrected pole.

#27 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:47

This is a problem I see in this thread, the actual end of race results are completely circumstantial, so why is everyone basing their opinions on them? Unless a driver has a habit of being slow at a particular race event, then I almost ignore the race results, or look to them last as an indicator of how good the driver is at a particular circuit.


I'm taking circumstances into my decision. If you look at just pace, then there aren't really any tracks that any of top drivers struggle on.

#28 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 20:53

I'm taking circumstances into my decision. If you look at just pace, then there aren't really any tracks that any of top drivers struggle on.


But that in my eyes is an utterly pointless exercise, then it's just coincidence if a top driver has a particularly 'bad circuit', like the way football teams have their 'bogey teams', which is frankly a load of superstitious nonsense.

#29 Disgrace

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:00

Schumacher has been hopeless in Singapore. Bullied all race and taking out Heidfeld in '10 before causing big crashes in '11 and '12.

#30 byronbolscher

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:16

I like how someone here said Interlagos for Kimi, his streak there since 2003 is: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 1st, 3rd, 6th (after Mark took Kimi's FW off and Kimi got fuel in his eyes from HK in the pits). For Kimi I would say Singapore, he's never really been on it there, and unlike Hockenheim, I think it's more to do with Kimi's driving than bad luck.

#31 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:18

But that in my eyes is an utterly pointless exercise, then it's just coincidence if a top driver has a particularly 'bad circuit', like the way football teams have their 'bogey teams', which is frankly a load of superstitious nonsense.

Is it? if it's coincidence that a driver consistently has poor results at a given track, then logically, it must also be a coincidence if a driver also consistently good results. The football team thing is a self-fulling psychological barrier.


#32 BetaVersion

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:20

What do you think, which tracks are worst for a certain driver? Today's drivers or drivers from the past.

My opinion:

Alonso - Spa without a doubt. I'll just say Massa beat him in qualifying there twice in a row. He has never been particularly good in Istanbul as well.

MSC - Istanbul for him. He won there 3 times, but he has never been so special in Silverstone as well.


Those were circunstancial. Alonso trashed Massa in qualifying there this year(0,7s faster).

Plus, Alonso outqualified Hamilton, at Spa, by over 0,3s being 1 lap of fuel lighter, albeit Spa is long and 1 lap accounts for quite some fuel, eventhough not enough to outcome the 3 tenths. So, beating Lewis doesn't make him weak there, albeit Lewis isn't great there either

Completely disagree about MSc's picks as well. What sport have you been watching? :eek:

He was much faster than Massa, at Turkey, in 2006, as Q2 showed, but Felipe got another of his "fake" low fuel poles there. He also outqualified Nico in 2010, at Istanbul, in a time he was very rusty and struggling with the car.

MSC was outqualified in 2003 by Barrichello at Silvestone but that was his bogus Ferrari year. In lot's of other years, he was mighty there, at least in Q.

Everybody knows MSC weakest track is China


#33 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:25

Is it? if it's coincidence that a driver consistently has poor results at a given track, then logically, it must also be a coincidence if a driver also consistently good results. The football team thing is a self-fulling psychological barrier.


You can be more likely to have good results at a track, borne out of your own qualifying success, but it's still circumstantial. People looking to the race results for answers aren't delving deep enough.

#34 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:52

What do you think, which tracks are worst for a certain driver? Today's drivers or drivers from the past.

My opinion:

Vettel - he pretty much won on every track, except on his home GP's Nirburgring and Hockenheim, and in Canada. I'd say his weakest track is Gilles Villeneuve.
Alonso - Spa without a doubt. I'll just say Massa beat him in qualifying there twice in a row. He has never been particularly good in Istanbul as well.
Raikkonen - I think Hockenheim.
Webber - his home track for sure
Hamilton - Interlagos
Button - easily Silverstone
Massa - Sepang and Albert Park
MSC - Istanbul for him. He won there 3 times, but he has never been so special in Silverstone as well.

MSC won there 3 times but its his weakest? Show's just how good he is then.

#35 scheivlak

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 21:56

Everybody knows MSC weakest track is China

Well, not me :D

Of course he had a few bad ones but to me, Michael's 2006 win in Shanghai is possibly his greatest ever!

Singapore is an easy choice as his bogey track - we can at least say that since MS returned all his Shanghai races were better than his Singapore ones.

#36 BetaVersion

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 22:40

Well, not me :D

Of course he had a few bad ones but to me, Michael's 2006 win in Shanghai is possibly his greatest ever!

Singapore is an easy choice as his bogey track - we can at least say that since MS returned all his Shanghai races were better than his Singapore ones.


2006 was brilliant but more due to him driving greatly in wet conditions. On dry surface, his pace never impressed there. In Singapore, he made stupid mistakes but was on Rosberg's pace in 2011 and 2012(actually even a tiny faster), at least in Q, as nowadays is a bit more difficult to evaluate race pace accurately. In 2010, he was couple of tenths behind in Q but that's a fair margin in such a long laptime. Imo, far from being a bogey track for him, pace-wise.

To me, when OP said "weakest", he meant about pure pace, not particular incidents and etc, isn't that so :confused: :well:

Edited by BetaVersion, 11 November 2012 - 22:43.


#37 BorkoF2012

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:13

To me, when OP said "weakest", he meant about pure pace, not particular incidents and etc, isn't that so :confused: :well:

Both actually, if somebody had numerous incidents on the same track

#38 scheivlak

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 23:20

2006 was brilliant but more due to him driving greatly in wet conditions. On dry surface, his pace never impressed there. In Singapore, he made stupid mistakes but was on Rosberg's pace in 2011 and 2012(actually even a tiny faster), at least in Q, as nowadays is a bit more difficult to evaluate race pace accurately. In 2010, he was couple of tenths behind in Q but that's a fair margin in such a long laptime. Imo, far from being a bogey track for him, pace-wise.

To me, when OP said "weakest", he meant about pure pace, not particular incidents and etc, isn't that so :confused: :well:

I think you can't say that a track is somebody's weakest track if he wins there especially in wet and difficult conditions!
Just look at the Q reslut of the 2006 Chinese GP: http://forix.autospo...&r=20060016&c=3 Schumacher -6th- was the only driver on Bridgestone tyres to reach Q3, all other Bridgestone drivers were 14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22 in 22 car starting field..... That's were he built the foundation of a superb win.

About Singapore 2010-2012: c'mon, don't be silly. If you have no problems about Mikey being a few tenths slower in 2010 you should remain silent about 2011 and 2012, especially because Michael didn't bother to come out in Q3 in 2011 and Nico did. I really like that comment of yours BTW about the difficulty "to evaluate race pace accurately" nowadays. That will convince a few people :D
He was outclassed in 2010 by Nico and more or less blundered into crashing in 2011 and 2012.

#39 scheivlak

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 00:05

I like how someone here said Interlagos for Kimi, his streak there since 2003 is: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 1st, 3rd, 6th (after Mark took Kimi's FW off and Kimi got fuel in his eyes from HK in the pits). For Kimi I would say Singapore, he's never really been on it there, and unlike Hockenheim, I think it's more to do with Kimi's driving than bad luck.

:up:

Kimi was quite formidable in Brazil in 2003 despite the team certainly not helping him (they kept him out during the first SC period which meant that he lost a host of places during the next one when he had to come in).

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#40 BorkoF2012

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 14:41

MSC was outqualified in 2003 by Barrichello at Silvestone but that was his bogus Ferrari year. In lot's of other years, he was mighty there, at least in Q.

Not true. Barrichello outqualified MSC at Silverstone in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005. That is pretty unusual for Schumacher, do you agree? Also in his entire career he was just once on pole at Silverstone.

#41 LiJu914

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 15:16

Not true. Barrichello outqualified MSC at Silverstone in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005. That is pretty unusual for Schumacher, do you agree? Also in his entire career he was just once on pole at Silverstone.



In 2004&2005 MSC was much heavier in quali (more fuel for 6 resp. 8 extra laps) and in 2000 timing was quite important as there were mixed weather conditions during the session.
I wouldn´t say that Silverstone was a particulary good track for MSC, but neither was it his bogey track.

Edited by LiJu914, 12 November 2012 - 15:16.


#42 Dolph

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:19

MSC - Istanbul for him. He won there 3 times, but he has never been so special in Silverstone as well.


I think that the case here was that MS wasn't bad at Istanbul but Massa was very good.

#43 Dolph

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:27

I think Sarrazin and Sao Paulo.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#44 BetaVersion

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 22:58

About Singapore 2010-2012: c'mon, don't be silly. If you have no problems about Mikey being a few tenths slower in 2010 you should remain silent about 2011 and 2012, especially because Michael didn't bother to come out in Q3 in 2011 and Nico did.


He didn't bother to save tires. His Q2 time was already on same pace of Nico's Q3, and 4 tenths faster than Nico's Q2. This year, he was a tiny faster in Q2 and both didn't bother this time. Just for being pedant


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About Lewis, eventhough we can't say he's brilliant at Suzuka, it's quite unfair to say he's bad there. It's just that he doesn't have the advantadge he usually have in tracks like Abu Dhabi or Hungary or Singapore



Not true. Barrichello outqualified MSC at Silverstone in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005. That is pretty unusual for Schumacher, do you agree? Also in his entire career he was just once on pole at Silverstone.


Tbh with you, I don't remember what happened in those sessions. So I can't tell right now if the gaps/positions were circunstancial(tech problems in the car, trafffic and etc) or reflected a true pace, but the gaps were these:

2000: Rubens 0,45s faster
2001: Schumacher 1,25s faster
2002: Rubens 0,010s faster practically a tie
2003: Rubens 0,65s faster
2004: Rubens 0,4s faster but Schumacher had 6 laps of extra fuel as in 2004 qualifying with race fuel started and if you adjust fuel, MSC would be faster in theory as 6 laps acount for about 18kgs of fuel at a track like Silverstone and each 10kg would account for about 0,4s itself

2005: Rubens again 0,4s faster but this time Schumacher had 7 laps of extra fuel, which as said above, would make him faster correcting fuel loads

Just looking at the gaps without remembering what happened, I would say only 2000 and 2003 could be really counted as an unquestionable beating. 2002 was quite of a draw. In 2001, it was hugely in favour of MSC and 2004/2005 would also account for MSC when you factor the fuel on it.

Not a great record as in Suzuka or Spa but still far from being a weak track for him I would say :well:

edit: I didn't see LiJu914's post when I wrote it

Edited by BetaVersion, 14 November 2012 - 23:08.


#45 froggy22

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:29

Think i remember Webber saying he doesnt really like the new Tilke tracks and always used to refer to them as car parks. I think it shows up in his driving as well. Always seems to underperform at Abu dhabi, Valencia, Singapore etc

#46 joshb

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:42

Think i remember Webber saying he doesnt really like the new Tilke tracks and always used to refer to them as car parks. I think it shows up in his driving as well. Always seems to underperform at Abu dhabi, Valencia, Singapore etc


i think he'll do OK in Austin. That first sector should suit him, maybe not the twisty bit towards the end but generally I think he'll be competitive here