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HRT in serious danger [Rumor]


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#51 Wingcommander

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:19

I am not certain if it is not late, whether it would be Honda or anyone else, but opportunity is there, and I hope that I have it right, because there was limit on entrants, and here could be an empty seat to fill, assuming HRT steps out.


The limit is 13 teams.

e: so slow...

Edited by Wingcommander, 13 November 2012 - 06:20.


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#52 Sakae

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:40

Hmm thanks, but not to quibble, isn't there an administrative difference between potentially two seats? I am thinking of a deadline to apply for a new entrant, as opposed to taking over from an existing team...

#53 Petroltorque

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:02

Hmm thanks, but not to quibble, isn't there an administrative difference between potentially two seats? I am thinking of a deadline to apply for a new entrant, as opposed to taking over from an existing team...

To apply as a new entrant requires FIA approval. They put the thirteenth spot out to tender around 2 years ago. The usual crazies came out the woodwork in addition to some more reputable applicants but none could source the euro 25 million surety.

Edited by Petroltorque, 13 November 2012 - 07:02.


#54 jcbc3

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:15

...They took a viable operation under Kolles and proceeded to dismantle it. If they had given Kolles the amount of money they have wasted in setting up afresh in Spain, they would probably be ahead of Caterham and Marussia. ...


This!

Kolles is underappreciated by many people. He may have an abrasive persona though.

#55 Sakae

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:27

To apply as a new entrant requires FIA approval. They put the thirteenth spot out to tender around 2 years ago. The usual crazies came out the woodwork in addition to some more reputable applicants but none could source the euro 25 million surety.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. What I have been wondering about whether it makes difference between taking over, and applying as a new team. I thought (and I didn't look it up) a completely new entrant has now surely pass the FiA imposed deadline for 2013 application, whereas whether someone taking over HRT business just could continue in 2013 under a different name.

#56 george1981

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:48

This!

Kolles is underappreciated by many people. He may have an abrasive persona though.


Kolles was very good for the team but he did pull a few tricks. I've heard that he owned key pieces of equipment the team needed, such as the transport trucks, and rented them out to HRT rather than the team buying them outright. Behaviour like that always looks suspicious even if it was done for the right reasons at the time.

#57 jcbc3

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:52

Kolles was very good for the team but he did pull a few tricks. I've heard that he owned key pieces of equipment the team needed, such as the transport trucks, and rented them out to HRT rather than the team buying them outright. Behaviour like that always looks suspicious even if it was done for the right reasons at the time.


I believe that was because he was only hired as a contractor in the first place. It was also a way for HRT not to tie up their capital that was sorely needed elsewhere.
I am also thinking that other teams might not in fact 'own' much of their peripherary equipment.

#58 noikeee

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:27

It's sad to see any team wandering around with no seemingly meaningful purpose, even if it's Team Grey owned by bankers and driven by a paydriver and a 40 year old journeyman.

I hope some investor rescues them and puts them into a path into something, but I can't see what's the value in the team. Awful car, no experience, team base in a daft place in the middle of severe economic crisis. Good luck.

#59 Petroltorque

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:31

Kolles' approach seemed more practical than putting all the teams budget into a white Elephant called Caja Majica. Who's going to want to buy that?

Edited by Petroltorque, 13 November 2012 - 09:33.


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#60 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:47

I think Schumacher will be looking to buy the team, Possibly together with Ralf to form Schumacher Bros. Racing. They will drive the cars themselves. Fact.

#61 Hans V

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:07

What's the point of HRT? The whole opereration is a complete no-hoper without much chance of ever becoming anywhere near competetive or making money. The only asset they have is the F1-franchise, which in essence is a a right to embarrass yourself while loosing huge amounts of money.

#62 One

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:11

Should there be finally a Brazillian team on grid racing brazillian drivers? Petrobras' face should be celebrated and hopefully more telecoms, energy drinks and so on. Brazil has been the captal of racing drivers till today, so I personally am looking forward to seeing more international interests in HRT.

#63 ensign14

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:18

What's the point of HRT? The whole opereration is a complete no-hoper without much chance of ever becoming anywhere near competetive or making money.

Could have said that about Toleman in 1981. They were winning races in a decade and a title in two.

And Frank Williams went from 0 points in 1976-7 to the world title in 1980.

#64 johnmhinds

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:33

Could have said that about Toleman in 1981. They were winning races in a decade and a title in two.

And Frank Williams went from 0 points in 1976-7 to the world title in 1980.


Took a lot less to run a team in those days.

Nobody is going to want to spend a long time investing £500 million+ in HRT for a decade on the off chance that they maybe win a race or two.

That money would be better spend buying and investing in Torro Rosso or Force India.

#65 teejay

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:06

They're not.
But if they were, what value would buying HRT bring? please explain.


Would save them hundreds of millions in designing the worst car?

#66 Wiggy

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:08

It would be bad to see them leave, if only because more cars = more action, especially for spectators at the track.

Hope someone buys them, F1 needs underdogs. Someone has to be at the back...

#67 wj_gibson

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:08

I think the Toyota experience demonstrated that money does not bring success in F1 - rather, money plus someone like Adrian Newey (or, in the case of Williams in the late 1970s, Patrick Head) brings success in F1, and that's the long and short of it.

Toleman needed Benetton's largesse to become a winning team, but they were already a decent mid-field team and had had a pole position to boot, so they weren't in the same position as HRT today.

#68 engel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:14

30 years ago you could be "competitive" with a bunch of passionate greasemonkeys (not a derogatory term) that worked for travel expenses and food/board cause they loved it so much and somebody's last year's car. Today you need to drop 100 mil in infrastructure just to design a half-decent car a couple of seconds off the pace. Then you need another half a bill to find those couple of seconds. Apples/Oranges

#69 Doughnut King

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:19

Put your hands up if you're surprised they made it this far?

Aren't Marussia £50 million in the red?

Edited by Doughnut King, 13 November 2012 - 11:20.


#70 Timstr11

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:53

Would save them hundreds of millions in designing the worst car?

Hundreds of millions?
HRT as got nothing more to offer than a building with a few milling machines.
Pretty much everything is outsourced.

#71 Baddoer

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:06

I think Schumacher will be looking to buy the team, Possibly together with Ralf to form Schumacher Bros. Racing. They will drive the cars themselves. Fact.

Sounds like a plan.

#72 mattferg

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:08

Groupo Torro Rojo anyone? xD

#73 ensign14

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:31

Took a lot less to run a team in those days.

Double-edged sword - it also made it more difficult to beat a larger number of teams.

HRT is not a hopeless case as with next to nothing they are making the grid consistently, despite having the worst driver line-up in the sport. There's a lot of heart there, the chaps and chapesses on the ground must be working their wotsits off. Perhaps they would remain a Pollock BAR if they had the funding, but one never knows.

#74 lambylamby

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:35

F1 is a better place with them on the grid. I would even have that serbian guy stefan GP with a wooden/plastic Toyota chassis, and a better points structure to let him race HRT with no brakes, would make excellent bumper car racing at the back.
edit: I guess what im trying to say is I like the characters that MAKE F1


It's not over until the fat lady sings though, maybe... just maybe there is a buyer out there....


Edited by lambylamby, 13 November 2012 - 12:36.


#75 Petroltorque

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:36

Hundreds of millions?
HRT as got nothing more to offer than a building with a few milling machines.
Pretty much everything is outsourced.

Precisely. Thesan Have not dropped hundreds of millions on this project. They were running a turnkey operation. Design, build and manufacture were all outsourced. They foolishly decided to compromise the chassis for a new building. Its just that a building, not a factory.
Campos' strategy might have worked. Get an established chassis builder to design and manufacture the chassis and he would run the outfit from a modest base in Spain. 50 million euros a year was the estimated outlay in year 1. It was just that he could not find the backing in Spain and that should have been an immediate Red Flag to Thesan Capital!

Edited by Petroltorque, 13 November 2012 - 12:38.


#76 lambylamby

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:42

Precisely. Thesan Have not dropped hundreds of millions on this project. They were running a turnkey operation. Design, build and manufacture were all outsourced. They foolishly decided to compromise the chassis for a new building. Its just that a building, not a factory.
Campos' strategy might have worked. Get an established chassis builder to design and manufacture the chassis and he would run the outfit from a modest base in Spain. 5 million euros a year was the estimated outlay in year 1. It was just that he could not find the backing in Spain and that should have been an immediate Red Flag to Thesan Capital!



This 'spain base a disadvantage' business, couldn't they slip Newey a few quid and get him to build a garage in Peckham to build a car named not a torro rosso OR a red bull, but a 'baileys and cherryade'? paint the car yellow, job done. Diageo & Dr Pepper get in on the action, everyone's happy.

What other factors are a detriment to having units in spain, other than coaxing 'fruitful employees', or is it a case of the 'fruitful' employees literally will be the glue that make this team bond?

#77 dau

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:52

What's the point of HRT? The whole opereration is a complete no-hoper without much chance of ever becoming anywhere near competetive or making money. The only asset they have is the F1-franchise, which in essence is a a right to embarrass yourself while loosing huge amounts of money.

I've heard the same being said about Minardi and Midland/Spyker.

#78 Petroltorque

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:07

This 'spain base a disadvantage' business, couldn't they slip Newey a few quid and get him to build a garage in Peckham to build a car named not a torro rosso OR a red bull, but a 'baileys and cherryade'? paint the car yellow, job done. Diageo & Dr Pepper get in on the action, everyone's happy.

What other factors are a detriment to having units in spain, other than coaxing 'fruitful employees', or is it a case of the 'fruitful' employees literally will be the glue that make this team bond?

Look I'm not sugesting you can't run an outfit from a base in Spain. What you can't do is expect to build up an infra structure to run everything in house in Spain. Hell someone as qualified as Villadelprat couldn't make it work. And before I get a load of pms, yes I appreciate that technically His operation was in the Basque country but you get my drift.


#79 lambylamby

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 13:19

Look I'm not sugesting you can't run an outfit from a base in Spain. What you can't do is expect to build up an infra structure to run everything in house in Spain. Hell someone as qualified as Villadelprat couldn't make it work. And before I get a load of pms, yes I appreciate that technically His operation was in the Basque country but you get my drift.

I was thinking about this last night, with Ferrari you have a history and marque, a platform for a reason to build from. But teams like Torro Rosso to a lesser extent (due to being red bull) & Sauber remain an enigma, surely Sauber shouldn't doing as well as they are or is it a cooling period from BMWs ownership (I appreciate they were Sauber before that, but it was the 90's and you have all sorts of weird and wonderful teams around that era!).

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#80 Tommorris747

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 03:22

The irony is that if Red Bull Racing was up for sale it could be harder to sell that HRT! If it wasn't for the money that Red Bull puts into the team it couldn't sustain the amount it spends. It would have a bigger shortfall than HRT could possibly have because the amount spent by Red Bull on Red Bull Racing is bigger than HRT's entire budget :stoned:

#81 teejay

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 04:55

Hundreds of millions?
HRT as got nothing more to offer than a building with a few milling machines.
Pretty much everything is outsourced.


I was joking in reference to Hondas "awesome" 07/08 cars and the amount they spent to make a car so bad.



#82 Watkins74

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:10

It would be bad to see them leave, if only because more cars = more action, especially for spectators at the track.

Hope someone buys them, F1 needs underdogs. Someone has to be at the back...

They do play an important role during practice, they usually go out and clean some of the dust off the track while the heavy hitters wait in the garage.

Edited by Watkins74, 14 November 2012 - 07:11.


#83 One

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:13

I was joking in reference to Hondas "awesome" 07/08 cars and the amount they spent to make a car so bad.


HONDA should NEVER purchase HRT, Never.

#84 Sakae

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:32

HONDA should NEVER purchase HRT BAR, Never.

There, I fixed for you.

Do not panic, they won't purchase HRT, but, they could consider buying a seat at the table. Whether they will, is however doubtful. Japanese economy is not in good shape, but new marketing exposure in developing markets could persuade them to take a plunge.

#85 KingB

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:30

Das Interesse ist offenbar dermaßen gering, sodass sich die Thesan Capital kurzlich offensiv an den chinesischen Motorsportverband wandte. Man werde Qing-Hua Ma ein Stammcockpit für 2013 garantieren, wenn entsprechende Geldgeber aus China zur Rettung des Teams beitragen, hieß es.

They say HRT will guarantee Ma a seat for 2013 when the chinese motorsport association helps them saving the team.

Die Zeitung 'AS' malt ein dramatisches Bild von der aktuellen Situation im Team. Der Bremsdefekt bei Pedro de la Rosa in Indien und der plötzliche Lenkungsbruch am Fahrzeug von Narain Karthikeyan in Abu Dhabi seien auf das Material zurückzuführen, berichtet das Blatt. Am F112 der Spanier seien viele Bauteile bis weit über ihre Maximallaufzeit hinaus im Einsatz. Auf Grundlage dessen habe die HRT-Führung erwägt, sich sofort aus der WM zurückzuziehen. Man habe dies nicht getan, um nicht gegen gültige Verträge zu verstoßen.

Spanish newspaper AS said: Braking failure of Pedro and steering failure of Narain were due to the fact that HRT uses their compounds far too long. That's why they even considered to pull out of the championship immediately, but they didn't because they didn't want to break contracts....

Motorsport-Total
That's another article, where they claim, that they have some documents about HRT. Here are some points of the documents:

- design department exempted since the beginning of the week
- all others are informed about suspension, which will happen at 15th December
- so just the team at the track is still working
- deadline for a buyer: 2nd December

#86 Petroltorque

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:10

So it's official HRT are zombie debtor who's body will be interred on 2nd December. I'd been saying from the start of the season that these guys hadn't made any progress.

#87 One

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:49

There, I fixed for you.

Do not panic, they won't purchase HRT, but, they could consider buying a seat at the table. Whether they will, is however doubtful. Japanese economy is not in good shape, but new marketing exposure in developing markets could persuade them to take a plunge.


Honda buying a seat for Kamui? O ris it Toyota buying seat for Kamui? Never the less they are cart maker.

They say HRT will guarantee Ma a seat for 2013 when the chinese motorsport association helps them saving the team.

- design department exempted since the beginning of the week
- all others are informed about suspension, which will happen at 15th December
- so just the team at the track is still working
- deadline for a buyer: 2nd December


Should be interesting if Chinese indeed move in to Formula One and show what they are capable of with completely another approach. A state of the art facility in Shanghai should be a peanuts.


#88 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:25

Should be interesting if Chinese indeed move in to Formula One and show what they are capable of with completely another approach. A state of the art facility in Shanghai should be a peanuts.


Basing an F1 team in China would be an awful move. There's good reasons why all the F1 teams are in Europe, and the majority of those in the UK. Next to no staff members with Formula One experience are Chinese or based in China, and with the exception of Formula Pilota China there are few technical staff members who have experience of open wheel racing at all. So you have to convince European race staff to uproot their entire families and move half the world away to China while you train up local staff members. So you're probably going to have to apply them above market wage in order to attract them. Even Japanese race staff aren't a better prospect, given that they might have difficulty getting Visas to work in China given recent problems between Japan and China, and even if they do, they will also require high wages. It's also going to be expensive to get to the European races, and you've not reduced the cost of travelling to other Asian grands prix as much as you might think, as the distances between Asian venues still requires flights. You'll also spend more time travelling to European grands prix, which is time the European teams can gain an advantage developing their cars. There aren't existing facilities in China, so you'be got to pay to build them, and you've either got to pay a European company to do the work you would do on site, or take a risk on an existing Chinese company without experience of doing such things.

#89 ensign14

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 14:11

Problem with Ma is surely he falls well short of superlicence criteria...

#90 dau

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 14:17

Problem with Ma is surely he falls well short of superlicence criteria...

He already has one after doing the the required 300km in testing. That's why he could take part in FP1 at Monza.

#91 D.M.N.

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:44

http://joesaward.wor...future-for-hrt/

Redundancy notices being sent out. Not looking good.... :( Regardless of what you think of them, it is never good for the sport when a team goes bust.

#92 ensign14

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:50

He already has one after doing the the required 300km in testing. That's why he could take part in FP1 at Monza.

Ah, I thought that was just to get him in the door, that he needed something further (e.g. a result) to get anything more than a provisional.

#93 lambylamby

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 18:54

Now with the forum topics on HRT reported in the news by Mr Joe Saward (http://joesaward.wor...future-for-hrt/) that they are up the poop without a paddle, are there any teams that could step up to the plate (Mr Stefan wearer of the cardigans), or are there potential buyers alleged to be interested in HRT?

#94 Disgrace

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 18:59

Stefan GP was a joke, and deserves no discussion.

#95 Sakae

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 19:04

Are you promissing juiciest last two weeks of the season? Final strech and a new owner? It would have to be somebody who thought about it for a while, and is ready to tango with some spare 400 Mill in his back pocket right now, and twice as much for next year. That will do it.

#96 Petroltorque

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 19:05

It would appear not. The press release about potential buyers was just more speil to save face for the management.
You can't finalise a sale in 2 weeks. There's no car for next year. The demise of any team is a tragedy but HRT is dead.

#97 Slowinfastout

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 19:10

If even if they stayed alive I don't think there was going to be any new cars anyway...

#98 engel

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 19:21

Mr Stefan


StefanGP couldn't afford the 10 bucks it would cost to keep their domain name, some Hundai modder from Chicago owns it now :)

Anyways, HRT is a difficult sell. No assets, no real advantage to buying HRT over just buying the 13th slot from the FIA plus you get a bunch of headaches with a team based out in Spain. Unless they can find a Spanish buyer, which I doubt considering the economic situation in Spain, I 'm afraid the team will just fade away.

#99 Sakae

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 19:23

It would appear not. The press release about potential buyers was just more speil to save face for the management.
You can't finalise a sale in 2 weeks. There's no car for next year. The demise of any team is a tragedy but HRT is dead.

There is no car for next year and FOM didn't know about that? BTW, when Ecclestone was claiming that all teams signed on CA, was he including HRT in that statement?

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#100 Fastcake

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 20:07

Stefan GP was a joke, and deserves no discussion.


They couldn't even afford to make toasters.

There is no car for next year and FOM didn't know about that? BTW, when Ecclestone was claiming that all teams signed on CA, was he including HRT in that statement?


No, Bernie explicitly stated HRT had not signed in his last interview with Sky.