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HRT in serious danger [Rumor]


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#101 Petroltorque

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 20:19

If HRT have not signed up to the Concorde agreement and have not paid the 2013 entry so what are the selling? Thesan Capital have epitomised all that's bad with Venture Capitalism. They've gambled the $30 million payout for HRT as a new team and stripped out what few assets the team had.

Edited by Petroltorque, 14 November 2012 - 20:20.


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#102 ayali

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 20:26

Stefan GP was a joke, and deserves no discussion.

Yeah it was, thankfully FiA realised that from the beginning and kept them out. :up:


#103 Sakae

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 20:48

They couldn't even afford to make toasters.



No, Bernie explicitly stated HRT had not signed in his last interview with Sky.

Thanks. (I do not have regular access to Sky broadcast).

#104 Trust

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:08

Stefan GP was a joke, and deserves no discussion.

This.

#105 Arry2k

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:10

^^^
Yup. :up:

#106 D.M.N.

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:53

Threads merged, if a valid bidder comes forward to 'slot 12' on the 2013 grid, then we'll do a necessary split. There's not much point for two threads though at the moment though as discussion will overlap significantly.

#107 GhostR

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:05

StefanGP couldn't afford the 10 bucks it would cost to keep their domain name, some Hundai modder from Chicago owns it now :)

Anyways, HRT is a difficult sell. No assets, no real advantage to buying HRT over just buying the 13th slot from the FIA plus you get a bunch of headaches with a team based out in Spain. Unless they can find a Spanish buyer, which I doubt considering the economic situation in Spain, I 'm afraid the team will just fade away.


The 13th grid slot isn't available for 2013 anymore, as application deadline has long since expired. So if you apply for the 13th slot the earliest you race is 2014. Therefore, theoretically speaking, buying HRT has one advantage: you get to race in 2013. Admittedly with a dog car, but it could be useful in terms of building team experience on race weekends.

#108 Creepy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:11

Well, if it's true what those new rumors say... Well, at least HRT tried it.

#109 dau

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:30

The 13th grid slot isn't available for 2013 anymore, as application deadline has long since expired. So if you apply for the 13th slot the earliest you race is 2014. Therefore, theoretically speaking, buying HRT has one advantage: you get to race in 2013. Admittedly with a dog car, but it could be useful in terms of building team experience on race weekends.

It would also be an advantage to have a guaranteed slot for 2014 instead of having to wait for FIA to decide on your application at some point mid-2013, leaving you only a few months to build a team, design a car and get some more sponsors. Would be more expensive though. And that December deadline doesn't leave interested buyers enough time to find the money, so i expect 11 teams next year.

#110 engel

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 11:36

The 13th grid slot isn't available for 2013 anymore, as application deadline has long since expired. So if you apply for the 13th slot the earliest you race is 2014. Therefore, theoretically speaking, buying HRT has one advantage: you get to race in 2013. Admittedly with a dog car, but it could be useful in terms of building team experience on race weekends.


I thought the story was there was no car? Unless you mean racing the 2012 one in which case ... why would you spend money to do that?

Edited by engel, 15 November 2012 - 11:37.


#111 Petroltorque

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:56

There was the usual conjecture that Mark Tatham was "working" on a 2013 design. The fact that HRT had barely enough parts to see out the season leaves one wondering how much money was spent on 2013? Unless of course Tatham did all the design work in his head and would only transcribe those designs to the computer/ paper once he was sure of being paid. In any event the point is moot since there's no time to build up a new spec tub.
I'm left wondering whether HRT will do a Forti for the rest of the season? For those unfamiliar it basically means doing the least amount of running during free Practice and "retiring" early during the race on some trumped up excuse. But surely doing that would bring a disrepute charge and an accompanying six figure fine? Ah to return to those heady days of the late 80's and early 90's.....

#112 noikeee

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:09

I know HRT never quite made any sense as they entered F1 on the premise of regs that never came to light, never gathered investment in their home nation, have changed owners multiple times, and have moved to cash-strapped Spain anyway for national pride and money wasting's sake.

But why should there be such a massive prize money difference between the top 10 teams and the rest? This renders spots 11, 12 and 13 almost void of value, and the teams there will always struggle even more than the already inherent lack of competitiveness.

#113 engel

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:16

I know HRT never quite made any sense as they entered F1 on the premise of regs that never came to light, never gathered investment in their home nation, have changed owners multiple times, and have moved to cash-strapped Spain anyway for national pride and money wasting's sake.

But why should there be such a massive prize money difference between the top 10 teams and the rest? This renders spots 11, 12 and 13 almost void of value, and the teams there will always struggle even more than the already inherent lack of competitiveness.


Because 20 is the minimum amount number of cars Bernie is contractually obligated to provide. So from a business standpoint he has no interest subsidizing more than 20 cars. Irrespective of whether he might do so by private arrangement (and if memory serves me right HRT did get some money from Bernie even though they don't qualify to get any under the concorde)

#114 Sakae

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 14:38

I thought the story was there was no car? Unless you mean racing the 2012 one in which case ... why would you spend money to do that?

Maybe that's the price you need to pay if you want to ensure that you are on the grid in 2014. That's the only point I see in + column.

Edited by Sakae, 15 November 2012 - 14:39.


#115 Vickyy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 15:01

If HRT fails to enter grid next year, is there a possibility of return of 2009 point system?

#116 noikeee

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 15:13

If HRT fails to enter grid next year, is there a possibility of return of 2009 point system?


Why would there be?

#117 Vickyy

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 15:51

Why would there be?

I am not sure but the main drive to switch to current point system was because of increase in number of cars competing for points (I know for those 3 backmarkers it is entirely frivlious).

#118 Petroltorque

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 16:40

Because 20 is the minimum amount number of cars Bernie is contractually obligated to provide. So from a business standpoint he has no interest subsidizing more than 20 cars. Irrespective of whether he might do so by private arrangement (and if memory serves me right HRT did get some money from Bernie even though they don't qualify to get any under the concorde)

IIRC each of the new teams was guranteed $10 million a year for the first 3 years. So even if HRT finished outside the top 10 the still go. t $30 million from FOM.
It's worth bearing in mind that Campos' business plan was to run a turn-key operation with a complete chassis provided by Dallara. He would be responsible for providing a race hub and equiping it. That should have been doable within a start up budget of €40 million. As soon as you get delusions of being able to design or build inhouse costs will rise exponentially. Plus you have the added complication of supply problems if you're not in an F1 cluster.


#119 Anderis

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 16:42

http://www.onestopst...ar - agent.html

Well, maybe the chance that someone will buy them isn't that small if Ma's agent is sure that the Chinese driver will be in F1 next year? If there is major financial backing secured from Ma's sponsors, it may help to sell the team.

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#120 Petroltorque

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 15:57

Looks like HRT ARE doing a Forti. Got to wonder why Karthikeyan's been substituted on a track he's never driven before.

Edited by Petroltorque, 16 November 2012 - 18:29.


#121 Francesc

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 17:45

They can't afford to do normal practice sessions anymore. Look De la Rosa only completed 13 laps, clearly saving fuel, brakes, etc.

About brake failures had, Brembo said that HRT do X3 distance on them. If a brake disc can complete 1000 km reliably, HRT have been doing 3000 km...

#122 Petroltorque

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:34

If HRT are running brake components that far it is unsafe. What is the management's role in this? To put it in perspective if Thesan had applied for an entry at the time of the FIA tender they would not have been granted one.

Edited by Petroltorque, 16 November 2012 - 18:51.


#123 Wingcommander

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:48

About brake failures had, Brembo said that HRT do X3 distance on them. If a brake disc can complete 1000 km reliably, HRT have been doing 3000 km...


That's just wrong. They're getting into the Andrea Moda territory with this.

#124 Disgrace

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 18:50

If that is the case, they've been in serious trouble for much longer than the recent nature of current reports suggests.

#125 Petroltorque

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 19:03

I hate to say I told you so but I will. I have been telling followere not to believe HRT's press hype. Don't believe the guff that the owners are in talks with "potential Buyers" either.

#126 Richard T

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:05

Swedish pit lane reporter reporting the team is using glue to fix De La Rosas front wing.....

#127 Wingcommander

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:12

They're just sitting in the garage. Probably won't even try qualifying for the race. Arrows 2002, anyone?

#128 olliek88

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:18

I like a good underdog and small teams but HRT have been a failure from the word go. Yes, technically they've never finished last in the WCC standings but the fact this comes as a surprise to many tells you all you need to know about their actual performance. Bahrain, 2010, FP2, i think this sums up most of HRT's time in F1, not much promise, always just about hanging on and then the wheels fell off.

Hopefully a more comptent enterprise will take their slot.

#129 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:19

Not a great for sale ad really is it, no effort to say weee worth buying

#130 Petroltorque

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:39

I like a good underdog and small teams but HRT have been a failure from the word go. Yes, technically they've never finished last in the WCC standings but the fact this comes as a surprise to many tells you all you need to know about their actual performance. Bahrain, 2010, FP2, i think this sums up most of HRT's time in F1, not much promise, always just about hanging on and then the wheels fell off.

Hopefully a more comptent enterprise will take their slot.

That's just it. No new franchise is about to enter F1. An F1 start up is extremely rare. To be fair the team was run efficiently under Kolles' stewardship. IIRC Kolles' plan for 2012 was to modify the F111 to meet the 2012 safety regs and incorporate Williams KERS.this would not have guaranteed a big performance gain but would have kept them within a manageable budget For some reason the new management. Vetoed it.


#131 PapaD

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:44

It's a shame if they go.

I always love the teams that's the slowest, especially if the story above about them fixing the wing with glue is true!

:lol:

#132 dau

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:49

Swedish pit lane reporter reporting the team is using glue to fix De La Rosas front wing.....

Epoxy is a glue.

#133 Slowinfastout

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 20:59

I think they are reduced to the strict minimum and the idea now is just to meet the contractual obligations..

They have an obligation to have two serviceable cars and participate in all the races, they are doing minimal running probably because if they break something important they wont be able to run and miss on the FOM paycheck..

#134 Petroltorque

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 21:20

I think the FIA mount a hefty fine for missing an event. It used to be $250000 per event. It does not look like they will get under the 107% in quali.

#135 Disgrace

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 23:57

HRT's owners are Salesmen not Businessmen. They took a viable operation under Kolles and proceeded to dismantle it. If they had given Kolles the amount of money they have wasted in setting up afresh in Spain, they would probably be ahead of Caterham and Marussia.


The bolded is pure speculation, but otherwise agreed. Too much hatred in the thread starting to creep out of the woodwork now though, losing cars from the grid is never good.

It does look like Kolles is owed some respect for the running of the team. Likewise, his comments regarding his 2010 drivers (Senna and Chandhok) being the biggest problem of that season have been given some credence over time.

#136 oetzi

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:15

Oink, oink, flap, flap.

:rotfl:

I took the liberty of quoting his opening sentence:

"Bankers and Formula 1 are not a natural fit. The sport is much more suited to buccaneers and cowboys and the cautious banking types who wander into the F1 arena generally end up leaving without their shirts and often without their trousers as well."

I'm assuming he thinks that motorsport companies just stung the taxpayers of the western world for hundreds or thousands of billions of whatever you want to count it in, while banks are scrabbling around employing South Americans with friends in government to raise a few mil to keep their offices running?

#137 oetzi

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:17

Don't believe the guff that the owners are in talks with "potential Buyers" either.

That's never the most believable line.

#138 Tommorris747

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:12

I think they are reduced to the strict minimum and the idea now is just to meet the contractual obligations..

They have an obligation to have two serviceable cars and participate in all the races, they are doing minimal running probably because if they break something important they wont be able to run and miss on the FOM paycheck..


That's not true. Under the current Concorde Agreement all teams can miss three races and not be in breach of contract. So HRT could sit out the next two races and still be guaranteed that they would get the fixed $10m fee that they will get if they finish the season outside the top 10. They are racing in Texas and Brazil because they genuinely think they have a chance of scoring points. That is the truth of course because imagine how gutted they would feel if they sat out a race in which multiple teams got taken out in a freak accident :lol:
http://en.espnf1.com...story/8320.html

#139 Slowinfastout

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:56

heh..

I haven't had the immense pleasure of having access to the Concorde agreement, so I was going with what the FIA is asking for..

Therefore I'm gonna call BS just for the sake of it :lol:

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#140 Tommorris747

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:13

heh..

I haven't had the immense pleasure of having access to the Concorde agreement, so I was going with what the FIA is asking for..

Therefore I'm gonna call BS just for the sake of it :lol:

Bernie has got access to it though so I think it is safe to take this one at face value. I don't think he has anything to gain from making up the claim that the teams can miss three races (unless in fact they can miss more :lol: )
I'm intrigued though - what is the FIA asking HRT for and how do you know this?

#141 Watkins74

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:20

That's not true. Under the current Concorde Agreement all teams can miss three races and not be in breach of contract. So HRT could sit out the next two races and still be guaranteed that they would get the fixed $10m fee that they will get if they finish the season outside the top 10. They are racing in Texas and Brazil because they genuinely think they have a chance of scoring points. That is the truth of course because imagine how gutted they would feel if they sat out a race in which multiple teams got taken out in a freak accident :lol:
http://en.espnf1.com...story/8320.html

I thought the $10 million was only for the new teams first year. I have read several times this year that only the top 10 teams share in the FOM money, That's why it was such a big deal that Marussia got themselves into 10th place in the WCC.

I am not 100% certain though.

#142 Slowinfastout

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:33

Bernie is full of sh*t at least half the time he says something, but yeah in this case I guess I can't explain why he would have lied..

As for the FIA, I didn't mean money but the regulations are pretty clear that the agreement is for a full season with two cars.

I remember having discussed the issue back in the days of the events related in that article you posted, and I still don't get why the disparity between the FIA and the Concorde agreement..

bottom line though is that HRT could have been kicked out at any time if they were too annoying, I guess they meet 'the standards' so it's all good..

13.7 If in the opinion of the F1 Commission a competitor fails to operate his team in a manner compatible with the standards of the Championship or in any way brings the Championship into disrepute, the FIA may exclude such competitor from the Championship forthwith.


It's really not worth arguing over.. if HRT were really racing other people I would care, but right now they are in their own irrelevant world of poor equipment and crap pace compared to all the other teams..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 17 November 2012 - 04:35.


#143 Tommorris747

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 04:33

I thought the $10 million was only for the new teams first year. I have read several times this year that only the top 10 teams share in the FOM money, That's why it was such a big deal that Marussia got themselves into 10th place in the WCC.

I am not 100% certain though.

The $10m is still being paid out. However FOM made a nice little gain last year because it only needed to pay out a total of $20m rather than $30m in 2010. This is because each new team got $10m in their first year but from then on it has only been paid to each team outside the top 10 (or as FOM puts it, to teams not qualifying to receive an element of the Prize Fund).

#144 pingu666

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:25

They can't afford to do normal practice sessions anymore. Look De la Rosa only completed 13 laps, clearly saving fuel, brakes, etc.

About brake failures had, Brembo said that HRT do X3 distance on them. If a brake disc can complete 1000 km reliably, HRT have been doing 3000 km...


its possible there using the hardest/toughest brake discs and trying to eek them out, but its surely backfired cost wise from having to repair the cars, if the brake failures are from running the parts for too long.

#145 pingu666

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:26

wouldnt the current car be ok for next year rules wise too? or have i missed something

#146 Petroltorque

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:14

wouldnt the current car be ok for next year rules wise too? or have i missed something

Strictly speaking yes, but the present tub is way overweight. If HRT had employed an acknowledged chassis builder to construct their chassis could have saved them around 20kg. Thats worth a laptime gain of around 6/10s a lap straight out of the box.

#147 Petroltorque

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:22

The bolded is pure speculation, but otherwise agreed. Too much hatred in the thread starting to creep out of the woodwork now though, losing cars from the grid is never good.

It does look like Kolles is owed some respect for the running of the team. Likewise, his comments regarding his 2010 drivers (Senna and Chandhok) being the biggest problem of that season have been given some credence over time.

I sincerely hope you're not suggesting hatred towards the team on my part. I do admit to being seriously pissed off with the way the owners have managed the situation. But would one expect anything different from a venture capitalist? I have yet to hear of a feasible explanation of how"wanting to do things differently" by uprooting everything to Spain was a viable business plan?

Edited by Petroltorque, 17 November 2012 - 06:24.


#148 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 13:31

Swedish pit lane reporter reporting the team is using glue to fix De La Rosas front wing.....


road cars today are glued together (structural chassis parts). So "glue" is nothing bad to repair a silly F1 front wing with.

#149 Petroltorque

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 14:33

Much of the carbon fibre components of all F1 cars are glued together, that's been the case ever since carbon fibre technology was introduced back in the early 80's.
Perhaps someone could explain De la Rosa's assertion that extended running would have made no difference in optimizing tyre setup?

#150 Disgrace

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:13

I sincerely hope you're not suggesting hatred towards the team on my part.


No, I was referring to other posts. That perhaps wasn't clear enough on my part when I said "though."