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HRT in serious danger [Rumor]


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#151 Petroltorque

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:06

No, I was referring to other posts. That perhaps wasn't clear enough on my part when I said "though."

No worries. I for one am waiting for Kolles' take on the situation. He has been particularly silent.

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#152 chrcol

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 22:34

questions have to be asked.

why did this guy buy the team then he bored a year later?

#153 Disgrace

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:50

No worries. I for one am waiting for Kolles' take on the situation. He has been particularly silent.


I don't think it's his business unless asked by a journo in the paddock; does Kolles turn up to any races?

#154 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:56

I don't think it's his business unless asked by a journo in the paddock; does Kolles turn up to any races?

No it's not his business but he could have provided an insight a s to what he thought of the present business plan. I am sure he will be 'doorstepped' by a journalist at some stage.

Edited by Petroltorque, 18 November 2012 - 05:57.


#155 skinnylizard

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:59

Agreed. I hope so as well.

Back then when Max was there, the application from Epsilon Eskuadi was rejected.
http://www.archdaily...n-euskadi-acxt/
Looking at this facility I am assuming that they could mounted sound challenge to Formula One from Spain.



that property looks fantastic.. im sure that is a lot more than HRT has to work with ?

#156 skinnylizard

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:06

does it make sense for anyone interested to buy out HRT or can they make an independent entry? whatever is cheaper..

#157 Sakae

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:28

does it make sense for anyone interested to buy out HRT or can they make an independent entry? whatever is cheaper..

As previously stated, buying HRT and carrying on with business probably guarantees that you are in, assuming you get your other stuff in order, whereas as a new entrant-applicant for vacant slot, you could be send home after you forked-out a lot of money to submit an application, built resources, etc. I see it as significantly different situation.

#158 skinnylizard

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:58

As previously stated, buying HRT and carrying on with business probably guarantees that you are in, assuming you get your other stuff in order, whereas as a new entrant-applicant for vacant slot, you could be send home after you forked-out a lot of money to submit an application, built resources, etc. I see it as significantly different situation.


i am sure that depends on who is pursuing the entry though.. i dont think an Audi or a Honda would be treated the same way as a Paul Stoddart.. so yeah it guarantees a slot but not much else i guess.

#159 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:31

To be brutally frank HRT will be shut down at the end of the month. Thesan Capital have taken a decision that it's cheaper to close the team down than persevere with a loss leading project. Venture capitalist opearte on a simply premise of optimising profits and reducing losses.
I can see only a wealthy enthusiast coming in as a last gasp rescuer. Even then getting a project ready for 2013 will be difficult. In addition he'll have to find a new location>

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#160 Sakae

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:52

To be brutally frank HRT will be shut down at the end of the month. Thesan Capital have taken a decision that it's cheaper to close the team down than persevere with a loss leading project. Venture capitalist opearte on a simply premise of optimising profits and reducing losses.
I can see only a wealthy enthusiast coming in as a last gasp rescuer. Even then getting a project ready for 2013 will be difficult. In addition he'll have to find a new location>

These are precisely reasons why in other thread not too long ago I came out with concern that entities like current commercial right owner is fundamentally no good for future of the sport.

#161 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:30

At least HRT got both cars to the finish which puts the race team in a good light. Bit harsh of Vettel to blame Karthikeyan for him losing the lead though.
I think we can say if this team finds a buyer it will not be run from Spain. We can safely say running an F1 team with a small budget out Spain is now a busted flush.

Edited by Petroltorque, 18 November 2012 - 21:32.


#162 William Hunt

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:59

There now are rumours that HRT is in talks to be sold to Chinese investors.

#163 cbbcisace

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:46

There now are rumours that HRT is in talks to be sold to Chinese investors.


Pretty strong rumours too!

#164 Rosberg

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:52

I hope this ain't true as Ma will be a certainty for the second race seat.

#165 showtime

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:40

Dimi PAPADOPOULOS ‏@f1enigma
Little scoop : @AntonioMesquida and @alex_wurz are behind a new attempt to save HRT.


#166 Myrvold

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:41

I hope this ain't true as Ma will be a certainty for the second race seat.


tbh, better to have HRT-China there with Ma in one car, than no HRT at all.

#167 lambylamby

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:30

tbh, better to have HRT-China there with Ma in one car, than no HRT at all.


And if he doesn't qualify there is no-one to blame but him.

Bring on the chinese.

#168 understeer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:08

I hope this ain't true as Ma will be a certainty for the second race seat.


Ma will be in the first seat, second seat could be another pay driver.
When the ownership changes no prior contracts need to be honored. Pedro could be without drive again next year.

#169 Rosberg

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:24

Ma will be in the first seat, second seat could be another pay driver.
When the ownership changes no prior contracts need to be honored. Pedro could be without drive again next year.

Yeah that's true, if this was to happen, I can see De La Rosa going back to McLaren to help develop the car.

#170 Myrvold

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 17:07

When the ownership changes no prior contracts need to be honored. Pedro could be without drive again next year.


Sort of depends. Remember JV-BMW?

#171 swerved

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:27

James Allen tweet:

"Colleagues in Spain telling me HRT HQ is closing, all staff have redundancy notices. Sounds like that's it for them. 11 teams in 2013?"

Factory closes on Monday apparently.

#172 olliek88

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:27

James Allen has tweeted that his sources in Spain are saying all HRT staff have been handed their redundancy notices.

If true it looks like only 11 teams on the grid for 2013, hard to say i'm surprised and, frankly, i didn't think they'd last this long after the shenanigans at the start of their life.



Beaten to it! :wave:

Edited by olliek88, 21 November 2012 - 16:28.


#173 BoschKurve

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:47

Always a shame to see people lose their jobs...however I can't say the whole thing was all that surprising.

If someone does in fact pick up the pieces of this team for 2013, I hope they do have better luck with the whole thing.

#174 olliek88

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:57

I don't think luck comes into it with HRT, the people at the top of the chain in this team have been a mess from the word go, Kolles was the only one who looked like bringing stability and some sort of future.

#175 DanardiF1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:57

It would be a shame to see a team go from the grid, but considering the adventures HRT has been on in it's short existence I can't say it would come as a surprise...

What does actually surprise me is that Chinese investors haven't already found a way into F1. Same for the oil-rich countries of the Middle-East... Although it seems the Qatari's and Emirati's would rather spunk all their cash on football teams instead of F1.

#176 Petroltorque

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:12

Middle eastern Sovereign wealth funds have investments in Torro Rosso, Ferrari and till recently AMG Mercedes. It would seem that talk of a potential buy out was just a rumour. Let's see what sort of spin Thesan Capital put on this. This foray may turn out to have a detrimental affect on their finances.

Edited by Petroltorque, 21 November 2012 - 17:49.


#177 goingthedistance

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:19

One of their employees Mark French has also tweeted confirming the redundancies. No buyer apparently.

#178 Prost1997T

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:20

Same for the oil-rich countries of the Middle-East... Although it seems the Qatari's and Emirati's would rather spunk all their cash on football teams instead of F1.


Haven't they already bought into existing teams? McLaren and Toro Rosso come to mind.

#179 Anderis

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:21

Big shame if F1 can't keep even 12 teams alive. :(

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#180 F1ultimate

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:21

One of their employees Mark French has also tweeted confirming the redundancies. No buyer apparently.


Terrible to hear. However the team has been a limping dog for too long and needs to be put out of its misery. Buyers are tricky to find for a team that is effectively at square zero. There is nothing to build upon and the up front investment costs would be like setting up your old team.

#181 Prost1997T

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:41

Terrible to hear. However the team has been a limping dog for too long and needs to be put out of its misery. Buyers are tricky to find for a team that is effectively at square zero. There is nothing to build upon and the up front investment costs would be like setting up your old team.


Heh, and to think PDLR took a paycut to attempt to salvage something out of them :p then again, he did outqualify a Caterham at Suzuka and convincingly blew away NK in almost every race\Q session...

#182 DanardiF1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:44

Haven't they already bought into existing teams? McLaren and Toro Rosso come to mind.


But they haven't created their own team have they? Toro Rosso was just rumour wasn't it? And McLaren's investment was from Bahrain who don't seem to have put their money anywhere else (ie. Football teams)...

There's opportunity for national 'investment authorities' (I give them '' marks because they often just spend lots of money on showy things that have no chance of making any significant money back) from Abu Dhabi, Qatar and even Dubai still to create a Mid-East F1 team... an ideal billboard for all their other loss-making companies (Etihad Airways, Gulf Air, Mubadala, Man City FC, Paris-St-Germain etc etc) that would actually race in their home market as well as internationally.


#183 Petroltorque

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 17:46

Big shame if F1 can't keep even 12 teams alive. :(

F1 probably can support 12 teams afloat. What it can't legislate for is if one of those teams was incompetently run as with HRT. At the time when everyone was applauding what a great idea to setup anew in Spain, I was asking how it would work since the Spanish economy has tanked to the extent that the rating agencies had downgraded all the Spanish banks.
At least under Kolles expenditure was kept manageable. Under the present management money was wasted equiping a new factory when it should have been spent on the car. In the final reckoning a team is judged on the quality of its technology. That's never more important than when you're forced to race for your budget. Just look at the panic at Caterham now they've lost tenth spot.

#184 Petroltorque

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:01

But they haven't created their own team have they? Toro Rosso was just rumour wasn't it? And McLaren's investment was from Bahrain who don't seem to have put their money anywhere else (ie. Football teams)...

There's opportunity for national 'investment authorities' (I give them '' marks because they often just spend lots of money on showy things that have no chance of making any significant money back) from Abu Dhabi, Qatar and even Dubai still to create a Mid-East F1 team... an ideal billboard for all their other loss-making companies (Etihad Airways, Gulf Air, Mubadala, Man City FC, Paris-St-Germain etc etc) that would actually race in their home market as well as internationally.

I think one of the Emirate wealth funds owns 40% of torro rosso but I take your point. I think there is a technolgy park set up within the confines of Yas Marina with the hope of attracting an F1 operation. Thesan Capital would have had better luck relocating HRT there!

#185 wj_gibson

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:02

I wonder if they'll even bother with Interlagos. Everyone knows the team is dead in the water. What's the point?

#186 olliek88

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:06

I wonder if they'll even bother with Interlagos. Everyone knows the team is dead in the water. What's the point?


They'll get a big ass fine from Mr.E if they miss a race i think, failure to fulfil they contractual obligations for whatever it term is.

#187 DanardiF1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:14

I think one of the Emirate wealth funds owns 40% of torro rosso but I take your point. I think there is a technolgy park set up within the confines of Yas Marina with the hope of attracting an F1 operation. Thesan Capital would have had better luck relocating HRT there!


And given the large ex-pat community in the Emirates, the 'hit' of potentially moving out of Europe for work in F1 wouldn't be so big.

#188 D.M.N.

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:50

I wonder if Bernie will be going around in the next few days trying to pull a few strings to keep them alive?

#189 lambylamby

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:59

I wonder if Bernie will be going around in the next few days trying to pull a few strings to keep them alive?


Marussia or Caterham I would have thought so, I don't see a way of anything other than being comfortably numb for the spanish team. I'm bracing for 11 teams next year, although there should be 13, but the day that happens, well toasters may fly.

#190 Tommorris747

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:00

They'll get a big ass fine from Mr.E if they miss a race i think, failure to fulfil they contractual obligations for whatever it term is.


This is a funny and ironic point. Ironic because if they got a fine and went bust it wouldn't matter because they wouldn't have to pay up. Funny because under the Concorde Agreement all teams can miss three races and not be in breach of contract. HRT will get a fixed prize fund payment of $10m for finishing 12th regardless of whether they compete in Brazil or not. They aren't sitting it out because they genuinely think they have a chance of scoring points. Imagine how gutted they would feel if they decided not to turn up in Brazil and there was a huge crash which would have given them a chance to score points. It could be the last chance to save the team. The real question is why they didn't sit out three races earlier in the year...

http://en.espnf1.com...story/8320.html

#191 Petroltorque

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:05

I wonder if Bernie will be going around in the next few days trying to pull a few strings to keep them alive?

Bernie's got bigger things to worry about than HRT.

#192 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:06

This is a funny and ironic point. Ironic because if they got a fine and went bust it wouldn't matter because they wouldn't have to pay up. Funny because under the Concorde Agreement all teams can miss three races and not be in breach of contract. HRT will get a fixed prize fund payment of $10m for finishing 12th regardless of whether they compete in Brazil or not. They aren't sitting it out because they genuinely think they have a chance of scoring points. Imagine how gutted they would feel if they decided not to turn up in Brazil and there was a huge crash which would have given them a chance to score points. It could be the last chance to save the team. The real question is why they didn't sit out three races earlier in the year...

http://en.espnf1.com...story/8320.html


The real question should be why did they move to Spain in the first place & spend all that money on a new spot(factory) if they were in that much financial trouble. 10M is a lot to most people but is only a drop in the bucket to these teams. It's obvious they(HRT) have accumulated more than 10M in debt or otherwise the prize money for the year would be enough to help keep them going. I sure wish Audi or Honda or someone else would buy their spot and get in the mix. But it's too late to be thinking about 2013 for a new team.

#193 Petroltorque

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:29

The reason they moved to Spain is because Thesan thought by doing so they could achieve a quick sale. This argument has been flogged to death. The bottom line is that Thesan capital knew nothing of F1 and understood even less. Adrian Campos could not drum up enough money to pay the phone bill and he was setting up a turn Key operation,

#194 cbbcisace

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:42

The reason they moved to Spain is because Thesan thought by doing so they could achieve a quick sale. This argument has been flogged to death. The bottom line is that Thesan capital knew nothing of F1 and understood even less. Adrian Campos could not drum up enough money to pay the phone bill and he was setting up a turn Key operation,


Say and this is a big if the team get sold to Chinese Investors, is that any better?

Thesan spoke about unique opportunity and how F1 is not for the elitist, it hasnt worked full stop!



#195 Clatter

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:46

This is a funny and ironic point. Ironic because if they got a fine and went bust it wouldn't matter because they wouldn't have to pay up. Funny because under the Concorde Agreement all teams can miss three races and not be in breach of contract. HRT will get a fixed prize fund payment of $10m for finishing 12th regardless of whether they compete in Brazil or not. They aren't sitting it out because they genuinely think they have a chance of scoring points. Imagine how gutted they would feel if they decided not to turn up in Brazil and there was a huge crash which would have given them a chance to score points. It could be the last chance to save the team. The real question is why they didn't sit out three races earlier in the year...

http://en.espnf1.com...story/8320.html


For the same reason of not sitting out later ones. Points can be gained in any race and they are not worth more in the later races.

Edited by Clatter, 21 November 2012 - 20:47.


#196 DanardiF1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:58

I wonder if Bernie will be going around in the next few days trying to pull a few strings to keep them alive?


You'd think so at some level. Bernie is smart enough to understand that his business looks stronger with a 24-car grid than a 22-car one, regardless of how good the 2 cars that HRT bring are.

#197 Meanbeakin

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 23:49

To be honest, the fact they made it three years is a minor miracle considering how much trouble they were in in February 2010.

Always a shame (most of the time) to see a team fail but this won't have any real impact on the grid. Obviously Vettel would probably have hoped this had happened a few races sooner!

#198 William Hunt

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 00:10

I absolutely want more cars on the grid, up to 30 or more if possible, so I am very sad if they will not be there anymore next year. That would also mean two seats less for drivers and it's already so hard to get on the grid for young drivers. Dani Clos had a shot here but not anymore I guess. And thanks to HRT drivers like Bruno Senna or Daniel Ricciardo had their first taste of F1 here.

#199 Rosberg

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 00:14

Didn't Villeneuve try getting a team into Formula One in 2010?

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#200 minardifans

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 00:37

If they sell it for a pound like Brawn did, I've got a pound burning a hole in my pocket. I was going to use it to use a trolley in Asda but I think I'll keep hold of it now just in case.