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HRT in serious danger [Rumor]


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#251 olliek88

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 19:44

The real hardcore racers are the ones who do it despite no hope of winning or scoring points.

Those who are overjoyed at an F1 teams demise... Can they really call themselves fans?

Imagine if Minardi hadn't been around to give hopeless talents such as Alonso a season in a back of the grid car.

Someone always has to be at the back, will the wolves start preying on Marussia now?


Hear, hear!!

Just because your at the back doesn't mean your not working as hard as the other teams. I really feel for the employees (or, former) of HRT, out of a job weeks before xmas. A shame that the higher level management of the team has the side down. It never good to lose a team and the sport will be a worse place as a result of this.

:cry:

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#252 Seanspeed

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 20:38

Cant say I'll miss them, but I'm sorry for all the people involved.

#253 ExFlagMan

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 20:54

Cant say I'll miss them, but I'm sorry for all the people involved.

Try substituting Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull, Williams, Sauber, Lotus etc for HRT and would you feel the same way. They all started from the back of the grid - OK so HRT failed to make it but most of those teams where in that sort of situation at one point or another in the past - but I guess instant success is all that matters to most of those who post here.

#254 rolf123

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:01

Why isn't Ferrari or McLaren buying this team to make a "B" team? Surely Red Bull has shown the advantages of such an approach?

Who knows, maybe Newey tests some CFD theories on Torro Rosso car.

I know its "officially" not allowed but its easily done without detection. And there's nothing stopping two teams doing a joint venture and having a data sharing agreement, for example.

#255 goldenboy

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:10

I always had some respect for them doing what they did and the amount of shit they took of people. Life is full of too many people who won't have a go but are more than happy to criticise those who do and fail.

#256 Shiroo

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:31

well it will be better for F1 without them (sadly) coz they were most of the time just giving other hard time and didn't have any progress at all in my opinion. Though it is sad that some people will lose their work, but it needed to happen. As a team I won't miss them surely, but it is still a bit sad.

#257 Red17

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:43

Why isn't Ferrari or McLaren buying this team to make a "B" team? Surely Red Bull has shown the advantages of such an approach?

Who knows, maybe Newey tests some CFD theories on Torro Rosso car.

I know its "officially" not allowed but its easily done without detection. And there's nothing stopping two teams doing a joint venture and having a data sharing agreement, for example.

It's costly enough to run the A team. Look how much flak Ferrari got when Luca talked about a third car.

#258 Fudce

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 00:33

I'll miss HRT. They weren't great, but they were always interesting to watch.

Imagine if Minardi hadn't been around to give hopeless talents such as Alonso a season in a back of the grid car.

You can't really use that argument for HRT though. Who have they given us?

Karun Chandhok (interesting to listen to, sadly not a top driver)
Bruno Senna (OK, fair enough. He would have got in to F1 even without HRT though)
Sakon Yamamoto (Didn't deserve a second chance, let alone a third)
Christian Klien (A last ditch hurrah, not an exciting young talent)
Narain Karthikeyan (Another older driver whose only points were in THAT America GP)
Daniel Ricciardo (He'd have been in Toro Rosso the next year anyway)
Tonio Liuzzi (See Klien)
Pedro de la Rosa (Super Sub turns tail end charlie at the end of his racing career)

#259 Myrvold

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 00:39

If nothing else, HRT gave 40-60-80 people a chance to live the dream in F1 for some years! Those jobs are now gone, and it's even thougher for people (like myself) to a job in F1.

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#260 Fastcake

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 00:47

Try substituting Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull, Williams, Sauber, Lotus etc for HRT and would you feel the same way. They all started from the back of the grid - OK so HRT failed to make it but most of those teams where in that sort of situation at one point or another in the past - but I guess instant success is all that matters to most of those who post here.


But they're not Ferrari or McLaren or Williams though. Very few people are going to miss them because they never made it and they never became important to the sport. It's not like when Team Lotus collapsed alas.

Why isn't Ferrari or McLaren buying this team to make a "B" team? Surely Red Bull has shown the advantages of such an approach?

Who knows, maybe Newey tests some CFD theories on Torro Rosso car.

I know its "officially" not allowed but its easily done without detection. And there's nothing stopping two teams doing a joint venture and having a data sharing agreement, for example.


Buy what? They have nothing bar an entry, two chassis and whatever equipment and leases are still valid.

#261 turssi

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:05

Red Bull should buy a 3rd entry!

#262 loki

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:01

Sad really :
"Police called to HRT factory over fighting 'drunk British' mechanics wanting their redundancy money:"


Are there any other kind?...

:rotfl: :wave:


#263 Kelateboy

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:13

we need moving chicanes... someone in China should by this team..

Chery Automobiles did take a cursory look at HRT but decided against buying it. They never got past the preliminary stage.

#264 UPRC

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:18

Bad for HRT's employees, but good for F1.

#265 loki

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:26

The real hardcore racers are the ones who do it despite no hope of winning or scoring points.


This... :up:

I think some of the acrimony over the team on this forum is due to the proponents having an unrealistic, at times overly optimistic view of the capabilities of the team given the circumstances. It's good to have a positive attitude but in reality, HRT were fortunate to make it this far. They could have closed after Campos but kept soldiering on. Just an unfortunate reality of the economics of racing.


#266 redbarron

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:23

So, pretty much like Ferarri?


Right! I suppose the team you follow is more iconic and important then Ferrari :down: *trolls*!

#267 george1981

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:51

HRT aren't on the official entry list so it looks like the end, I'd heard they'd be allowed to enter and pay the entry fee when able but it looks like that hasn't happened.
Looking at HRT, they didn't do as badly as they could have done considering their resources. They beat Virgin/Marussia in 2010/2011 respectively and when you consider how much better funded and organised Caterham were, Caterham weren't a lot further up the road then HRT.

#268 D.M.N.

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:54

Bad for HRT's employees, but good for F1.

I'm still not sure how them going bust is good for Formula 1. It's never good to see any team go bust - I prefer seeing 12 teams instead of 11 or 10 like the mid 2000's. Preferably 13 teams would be even better, but that is highly unlikely nowadays.

#269 george1981

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:06

I'm still not sure how them going bust is good for Formula 1. It's never good to see any team go bust - I prefer seeing 12 teams instead of 11 or 10 like the mid 2000's. Preferably 13 teams would be even better, but that is highly unlikely nowadays.


It's bad for whoever is 11th, not only do they get little/no money from Bernie they are also last, which makes them look weaker and likely to be the next to fail.

#270 Gyan

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:11

I don't know about Minardi's early history, but did they simply start off in F1 without any lower formulae experience, without any secure backing and without a proper base for the team?

IMO, those three are the most important factors if they decide to open a spot for bidding. Give any prospective team the time to secure finances as well, before jumping straight into Formula 1. That way we'd see teams such as ART moving into F1, who can establish themselves, regardless of results. In hindsight, Minardi had some base, which gave Toro Rosso a win as well, so these factors are important. And these factors were which caught out HRT.

Edited by Gyan, 02 December 2012 - 11:12.


#271 kosmos

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:12

Too bad, they did pretty well with the money they had, this is a failure of F1 and how it's run, not a failure of HRT in my opinion. I hope De la Rosa, Tony Cuquerella and other guys there find home in any of the teams on the grid, they have been part of F1 for so may years, that it will be sad if HRT is their last team.

#272 SpaMaster

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:17

Right! I suppose the team you follow is more iconic and important then Ferrari :down: *trolls*!

So, a Ferrari fan can say the exit of HRT as "good riddance, pointless team"?

#273 Wingcommander

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:34

Too bad, they did pretty well with the money they had, this is a failure of F1 and how it's run, not a failure of HRT in my opinion.


I agree. IMO the biggest problem is the way prize money is shared. The sport does generate enough money to support 13 teams, but the teams at the back of the grid dont get their hands on that. The 11th and 12th teams are pretty much left on their own financially, so the owners need to have a lot of cash for these teams to be able to compete with the top 10. I've always thought that the healthiness of F1 is measured by the number of cars on the grid. After being hopeful a couple of years ago, i feel now that the sport is heading back in to the dark ages of the 00's.

#274 Petroltorque

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:31

Too bad, they did pretty well with the money they had, this is a failure of F1 and how it's run, not a failure of HRT in my opinion. I hope De la Rosa, Tony Cuquerella and other guys there find home in any of the teams on the grid, they have been part of F1 for so may years, that it will be sad if HRT is their last team.

F1 remains a competitive enviroment. HRT existed in 2 distinct iterations; under kolles I accept they made progress despite the Carabantes adhoc funding. In their second iteration under Thesan the wheels well and truly came off. There is a basic level of investment required to achieve a competent level. Under Thesan HRT had a car designed by engineers with no design experience. A technical director with no experience in f1 design and a team Principle who was a complete novice. Combine that with owners looking to cut spending an there's only one outcome.
When you drilled down into the team's figures there was nothing of value and to restructure into a viable outfit would be cost prohibitive. You can't blame the FIA/ FOM for the team's poor management

Edited by Petroltorque, 02 December 2012 - 16:02.


#275 Nick Planas

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:36

I'm somewhat disappointed with the attitude of many F1 "fans" towards teams such as HRT, or other back of the field teams. If you take away any team which hasn't created much of an impact in the last three years, you wouldn't have much left to watch. Who wants to see F1 with just a few cars running?
Whenever you have a motor race, there is a winner, and there have to be losers. If you want to see a six car race, may I suggest you revisit the 2005 US GP for your thrills?
And if you take this to extremes, why bother with any other formula, or any club racing, anywhere in the world. It's all pointless isn't it? People just driving round in circles every weekend, and not winning the world championship... all a complete waste of time and resources surely.
I think it's remarkable what teams such as HRT manage to achieve DESPITE lack of top end funds. If you then consider what some of the top teams failed to achieve despite having mega bucks, it makes their achievements look so much better. We should be saddened that a group of talented (yes, talented) people from mechanics to designers to drivers, should have to close their doors. They may not have contributed much in the way of results but they were there, and they weren't a disgrace. If anyone out there thinks they can do better, let's see you have a go...

#276 kpchelsea

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:37

You have to feel sorry for the small teams that got shafted by the larger teams/FIA/Max Mosley etc.
Entered F1 on the premise that there would be resource restrictions only to find it was all a lie.
To my mind they have worked miracles to have lasted for 3 years. Without these small teams where do new drivers get a foothold in F1? - less chance now of some new Alonso, Vettel, Perez, Hulkenberg, Massa etc to get a start.
Also without new start-up teams where do the replacements for the Brawns, Neweys etc get a grounding in F1. Most of the current top teams where back-of-the grid outfits at some point.

It wasn't really a good foothold for young drivers with the likes of Pedro de la Rosa and Karthikeyan driving for the team though

#277 noikeee

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 13:12

It wasn't really a good foothold for young drivers with the likes of Pedro de la Rosa and Karthikeyan driving for the team though


They did give F1 debuts to Chandhok, Senna and Ricciardo. The 2 first were nothing special and the latter would've driven for Toro Rosso anyway, but it still shows that the most seats in the grid the more opportunities for new guys to be tried out.

If I were in charge having 26 cars on the grid would be a maximum priority. Shame about HRT, they were a serious race operation but with a lack of funding, awfully done wrong by the circumstances (Mosley's low-cost F1 proving to be total bullsh*t) and incompetent decisions upstairs by the owners.

#278 Red17

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 13:49

If I were in charge having 26 cars on the grid would be a maximum priority.

It's a good idea on paper, but there is simply not enough prize money on the table to sustain that many.
And of course, we all know the admission procedure is... special.

Edited by Red17, 02 December 2012 - 13:50.


#279 Petroltorque

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:24

I'm somewhat disappointed with the attitude of many F1 "fans" towards teams such as HRT, or other back of the field teams. If you take away any team which hasn't created much of an impact in the last three years, you wouldn't have much left to watch. Who wants to see F1 with just a few cars running?
Whenever you have a motor race, there is a winner, and there have to be losers. If you want to see a six car race, may I suggest you revisit the 2005 US GP for your thrills?
And if you take this to extremes, why bother with any other formula, or any club racing, anywhere in the world. It's all pointless isn't it? People just driving round in circles every weekend, and not winning the world championship... all a complete waste of time and resources surely.
I think it's remarkable what teams such as HRT manage to achieve DESPITE lack of top end funds. If you then consider what some of the top teams failed to achieve despite having mega bucks, it makes their achievements look so much better. We should be saddened that a group of talented (yes, talented) people from mechanics to designers to drivers, should have to close their doors. They may not have contributed much in the way of results but they were there, and they weren't a disgrace. If anyone out there thinks they can do better, let's see you have a go...

I think most objective forum members were willing to give HRT the benefit of the doubt and time to find it's feet. But they have failed to progress. F1 is not an enviroment where you award accolades simply for endeavour, it's the quality of effort that counts. For the third year in a row they were building up an untested chassis in the pit lane. You can't circulate at 6% of outright pace if acceptable pace is nearer 4%. Their car this year was substandard both in concept and build quality and they were running critical components beyound safe life expectancy with almost catastrophic consequences. To get on the back of the grid HRT needed a budget of euro 50 million. They could not find it and in that situation you have to accept defeat.

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#280 kpchelsea

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:30

They did give F1 debuts to Chandhok, Senna and Ricciardo. The 2 first were nothing special and the latter would've driven for Toro Rosso anyway, but it still shows that the most seats in the grid the more opportunities for new guys to be tried out.

If I were in charge having 26 cars on the grid would be a maximum priority. Shame about HRT, they were a serious race operation but with a lack of funding, awfully done wrong by the circumstances (Mosley's low-cost F1 proving to be total bullsh*t) and incompetent decisions upstairs by the owners.

I agree its better in principle to have more teams on the grid but no good if the team is poor and just a vehicle for well sponsored average drivers

#281 LB

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 17:20

Right! I suppose the team you follow is more iconic and important then Ferrari :down: *trolls*!


Yes, it is to me. I think Ferrari are just a bunch of whining Italians.

#282 Nick Planas

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:15

I think most objective forum members were willing to give HRT the benefit of the doubt and time to find it's feet. But they have failed to progress. F1 is not an enviroment where you award accolades simply for endeavour, it's the quality of effort that counts. For the third year in a row they were building up an untested chassis in the pit lane. You can't circulate at 6% of outright pace if acceptable pace is nearer 4%. Their car this year was substandard both in concept and build quality and they were running critical components beyound safe life expectancy with almost catastrophic consequences. To get on the back of the grid HRT needed a budget of euro 50 million. They could not find it and in that situation you have to accept defeat.


Agreed - but it's a shame some people felt the need to say "Good riddance" and so on. They tried, and ultimately they failed... but they still tried.

#283 ExFlagMan

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:26

The main problem I see is that if you price the small teams out of the market it opens the door the Bernie to stipulate 3 car teams - and just think of the howls of protest that would cause on here when one team has more options to manipulate the grid for the benefit of its lead driver. Also it's likely that the third driver for most of the teams would need to be viable would be the very same 'pay drivers' that the current back of the grid teams are forced to use.
Be careful what you wish for :rolleyes:

#284 midgrid

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:26

I don't know about Minardi's early history, but did they simply start off in F1 without any lower formulae experience, without any secure backing and without a proper base for the team?


Giovanni Minardi raced his own cars in the 1940s. His son, Giancarlo, fielded customer in F2 (and occasionally non-championship F1) cars in the 1970s, before establishing the team as a constructor in its own right in 1979. The team competed with its own cars in F2 between 1980 and 1984, scoring a single win with Michele Alboreto in 1981, before graduating to F1 in 1985.




#285 Wingcommander

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:29

It's a good idea on paper, but there is simply not enough prize money on the table to sustain that many.


Sure there is. The problem is how it's shared.

#286 garoidb

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:40

The main problem I see is that if you price the small teams out of the market it opens the door the Bernie to stipulate 3 car teams - and just think of the howls of protest that would cause on here when one team has more options to manipulate the grid for the benefit of its lead driver. Also it's likely that the third driver for most of the teams would need to be viable would be the very same 'pay drivers' that the current back of the grid teams are forced to use.
Be careful what you wish for :rolleyes:


Bringing in new teams for 2010 was a good idea, and I hope the other two survive and progress. It is a case of survival of the fittest, though. There should be periodic opportunities for experienced and accomplished motor-racing entrepreneurs to move into F1. It is clear, however, that it is a hell of a struggle to achieve even moderate competitiveness. The last team to achieve this was Stewart GP, to the best of my recollection, and that has turned out to be a worthwhile addition to F1. Priority number 1 has to be making sure that competitive teams do not go under, as they are in fact irreplaceable in the short term. Priority number 2 should be to foster new motorsports organisations that design, build and race cars at a high level (e.g. in sports car series) so that they can compete for entry to F1 whenever a space becomes available. Priority number 3 should be to make it worth their while to do so.

Edited by garoidb, 02 December 2012 - 18:41.


#287 BullHead

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:45

This is a real shame IMO. They did well to survive the years they did. It was obvious over the last couple of winters that they were struggling to stay in the game. The new teams invitation was at a bad time, costs and austerity and all that... ART considered it, and they're not short of cash, but said no thanks - a quick road to bankruptcy is all that loomed ahead...


#288 ensign14

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 19:21

Bringing in new teams for 2010 was a good idea, and I hope the other two survive and progress. It is a case of survival of the fittest, though. There should be periodic opportunities for experienced and accomplished motor-racing entrepreneurs to move into F1. It is clear, however, that it is a hell of a struggle to achieve even moderate competitiveness.

There always used to be. Only trouble is no-one's allowed to do that now - you have to be a Chosen Franchise. We wouldn't have Toleman/Benetton/whatever or Red Bull or Toro Rosso or Sauber or, well, any team at all had it been down to pitching to Max for a place. Maybe March.

#289 GhostR

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:56

Why isn't Ferrari or McLaren buying this team to make a "B" team? Surely Red Bull has shown the advantages of such an approach?

Who knows, maybe Newey tests some CFD theories on Torro Rosso car.

I know its "officially" not allowed but its easily done without detection. And there's nothing stopping two teams doing a joint venture and having a data sharing agreement, for example.


Kinda do have to wonder how much of the radically different design direction STR have taken (the whole 'double floor' thing) is Newey using that car to evaluate potential future design directions for when the current philosophy gets nuked by the rules. Their current success is largely due to the fact they got started so much earlier on the current designs - they were first with the pull-rod rear, first with a full-on exploitation of exhaust gases etc.

</OffTopic>

Edited by GhostR, 03 December 2012 - 12:57.


#290 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 14:57

... lately hating teams/drivers is the trend in this forum :down:


Lately? You mean since the forum started as AtlasF1, and in rec.autos.sport.f1 before that. Hating teams and drivers on the internet has been around since people stared posting opinions about F1 on the internet. If you think this forum is bad, you should have seen rec.autos.sport.f1 in 1994.


#291 One

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 18:55

Years Kolles survived the scene and now a year after it moved out of its nest,..,,

#292 DrProzac

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:59

RIP HRT :(

#293 g1n

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:09

HRT, you have achieved nothing, thank you for playing.

#294 Risil

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 20:12

Kinda do have to wonder how much of the radically different design direction STR have taken (the whole 'double floor' thing) is Newey using that car to evaluate potential future design directions for when the current philosophy gets nuked by the rules. Their current success is largely due to the fact they got started so much earlier on the current designs - they were first with the pull-rod rear, first with a full-on exploitation of exhaust gases etc.

</OffTopic>


That's presumably why Mclaren had their tech deal with Force India and now Marussia. I don't know about Ferrari but nothing would surprise me with them and Sauber. Except possibly one of their drivers being allowed to win a race at Ferrari's expense. </offtopic>

Edited by Risil, 03 December 2012 - 20:13.


#295 SB

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 01:42

<Off topic mode>

If you think this forum is bad, you should have seen rec.autos.sport.f1 in 1994.


Did this place really started as early as in 1994 ??! :eek:
I only discovered this place around early 1997 (if my memory serves :drunk: )

<Off topic mode OFF>

#296 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:49

A shame.

I hoped they would be bought up by a bigger company to become a test team much like STR for Red Bull .

#297 One

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:08

A shame.

I hoped they would be bought up by a bigger company to become a test team much like STR for Red Bull .


I guess prob is that there is almost too little to buy to run such a team...

#298 wj_gibson

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:12

Lately? You mean since the forum started as AtlasF1, and in rec.autos.sport.f1 before that. Hating teams and drivers on the internet has been around since people stared posting opinions about F1 on the internet. If you think this forum is bad, you should have seen rec.autos.sport.f1 in 1994.


Quite.

I remember a character from Portugal going under the name Johnny B. Goode who was obsessed with finding an infinitseminal number of ways to slate both Damon Hill and anyone defending Hill to boot. In many ways his "work" was that of an ur-troll, setting the tone for the future to come.

#299 Petroltorque

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:49

Quite.

I remember a character from Portugal going under the name Johnny B. Goode who was obsessed with finding an infinitseminal number of ways to slate both Damon Hill and anyone defending Hill to boot. In many ways his "work" was that of an ur-troll, setting the tone for the future to come.

You mean Uber troll. ( Please excuse the missing diadesis over the U).

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#300 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:02

You mean Uber troll. ( Please excuse the missing diadesis over the U).


No, he means Ur, as in Ur Example.