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HRT in serious danger [Rumor]


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#301 Jedi_F1

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:15

People underestamed the meaning of 'little teams' or a full grid (normally it is 26 cars) .. think also about the jobs. Think about the learning curve they can provide (not only for drivers) but also for mechanics, engineers, etc... it's really bad news we lose another team like HRT (even they were allways at at the back of the grid). Let's hope in the future we will have full grids again!

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#302 Petroltorque

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 14:07

People underestamed the meaning of 'little teams' or a full grid (normally it is 26 cars) .. think also about the jobs. Think about the learning curve they can provide (not only for drivers) but also for mechanics, engineers, etc... it's really bad news we lose another team like HRT (even they were allways at at the back of the grid). Let's hope in the future we will have full grids again!

Thesan Capital never put the money in to provide a modicum of performance. Let me put it thus; does anyone think the FIA would have granted HRT a license with the business plan Thesan had for 2012.
It's too convenient to blame the spending of the big teams for the collapse of smaller outfits. Even if Mosely could not achieve a cost cap he put enough structures in place to provide affordable F1. €50 million/ year budget should allow you to compete even if only at the back. I'd be suprised if HRT's budget was half that. Thesan Capital's management of the team looks more like a complex Long Firm fraud.

#303 TC3000

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 16:41

Thesan Capital never put the money in to provide a modicum of performance. Let me put it thus; does anyone think the FIA would have granted HRT a license with the business plan Thesan had for 2012.
It's too convenient to blame the spending of the big teams for the collapse of smaller outfits. Even if Mosely could not achieve a cost cap he put enough structures in place to provide affordable F1. €50 million/ year budget should allow you to compete even if only at the back. I'd be suprised if HRT's budget was half that. Thesan Capital's management of the team looks more like a complex Long Firm fraud.


You make some good points - IMO
What would be a sustainable business model for a small/new team?
Would be interesting to see, what the "new" teams back then showed to the FIA, as how they think longtermwise,
they would be able to run a operation, at least at break even.

Just to give an example, according to their fillings (companies house) Force India generated turnover (cashflow income) of
~59m € in 2010 and ~39m € in 2009 (there are no 2011 numbers yet), in both years they spend ~76m € (average of both years, but the spending is quite constant)
to generate their aforementioned income, making an operational loss of ~16m€ in 2010 and 38m€ in 2009.
So while things look better, it's still a heavy loss making business, and unless they either find people who give them credit (banks -> unlikely, with these numbers) or have owners who
are "happy" or at least content to p.... this sort of money into the wind, it's not sustainable as a core business.

Now FI may spends more money, then they need to, but all in all it seems to be a reasonable operation on a midfield level.
They just make that sort of turnover, you had in mind, how would a team like HRT or Marrussia generate this sort of turnover?

Marussia made a loss of 33m€ last year, having a current book value of ~ -95m€, so it's an ever loss making company living on borrowed time, from an business pov.
They can't finance their running costs out of their operational cashflow - not a "good" business.

I can't look up the values for HRT, but as an order of magnitude the Virgin/Marussia numbers will provide some perspective.
They had turnover (incoming money) of ~34.5m€ during 2010/2011 (each year), this value remained pretty constant, but spend ~59m€ in 2010 and 67m€ in 2011

What is/was the business model behind this?
Waiting for another white knight/oligarch who may is looking for a new toy, or need some company/vehicle to lessen his tax burden?

As you see, your 50m€ a year figure, is not that far out, but even the back markers burn more cash then that, and struggle to pull in this sort of money.
Now, does it really need, that much money, or are we making a few guys in management&consulting positions rich(er), I dunno, but even to run at the back end, you still spend serious coin.

data from
https://www.duedil.c...ited/financials

Edited by TC3000, 04 December 2012 - 17:36.


#304 g1n

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 18:42

https://www.duedil.c...ited/financials


maybe they need Eddie Jordan to run things?

#305 Petroltorque

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 16:48

An interesting take on the "situation" in this week's Autosport. Apparently Colin Kolles has been trying to buy the team for months. The absence of an FIA entry and absence of Concorde agreement for teams outside the top 10 complicates the matter. Any late entry would need unanimous agreement from all the competitor teams. On the plus side is Kolles' close frienship with Ecclestone and his F1 capable operation in Greding.

Edited by Petroltorque, 07 December 2012 - 11:26.


#306 Wingcommander

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 21:19

What would be a sustainable business model for a small/new team?


A rich owner who can finance the team until they get into top 10. I dont see any other way, because the sponsorship money isnt enough.

#307 Anderis

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 21:53

An interesting take on the "situation" in this week's Autosport. Apparently Colin Kolles has been trying to buy the team for months. The absence of an FIA entry and absence of Concorde agreement for teams outside the top 10 complicates the matter. Any late entry would need unanimous agreement from all the competitor teams. On the plus side is Kolles' close frienship with Ecclestone and his F1 capable operation in Gedding.

So is there still a chance of having 12 teams on the grid next year?

#308 MatParker116

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 23:13

Situations like HRT are why paying drivers are a good thing in certain situations.

#309 cbbcisace

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 23:42

An interesting take on the "situation" in this week's Autosport. Apparently Colin Kolles has been trying to buy the team for months. The absence of an FIA entry and absence of Concorde agreement for teams outside the top 10 complicates the matter. Any late entry would need unanimous agreement from all the competitor teams. On the plus side is Kolles' close frienship with Ecclestone and his F1 capable operation in Gedding.


Wouldn't suprise me one bit if Kolles got this on the cheap! :rolleyes:

#310 packapoo

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:13

Wouldn't suprise me one bit if Kolles got this on the cheap! :rolleyes:


Well he was the only one who touched it that seemed to have any clue.
I really couldn't give a stuff that these mugs have gone :rolleyes: but if what you surmise comes to pass good one Colin. :up:

#311 Petroltorque

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:40

Well he was the only one who touched it that seemed to have any clue.
I really couldn't give a stuff that these mugs have gone :rolleyes: but if what you surmise comes to pass good one Colin. :up:

It remains a long shot. Any team would be considered a new entry. There's little of value in the defunct HRT. Any plans for a F113 and any part completed tubs would only be worth a few thousand euros. It all boils down to how much money Kolles can raise.

#312 alfa1

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:55

It remains a long shot. Any team would be considered a new entry. There's little of value in the defunct HRT. Any plans for a F113 and any part completed tubs would only be worth a few thousand euros. It all boils down to how much money Kolles can raise.




But on the bright side, next years rules are basically the same as this years rules, so they could easily use the current chassis during 2013 while rebuilding the team in a more sensible location (like the British Midlands).
I cant see it actually happenning though. It'd be cheaper to start from scratch and enter in 2014.


#313 RA2

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:05

Or they could just lease out any 2010 car, mod the diffuser and continue racing as a B team

#314 Petroltorque

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:04

But on the bright side, next years rules are basically the same as this years rules, so they could easily use the current chassis during 2013 while rebuilding the team in a more sensible location (like the British Midlands).
I cant see it actually happenning though. It'd be cheaper to start from scratch and enter in 2014.

No they couldn't. The F112 was an ill concieved shitbox. Yes next years tech regs are the same apart for areas of strengthened bodywork but KERS is an essential part of the formula. To merit an inclusion on the grid they would have to demonstrate a level of performance on par with Marussia and Caterham. Or failing that, reinvent the team as one which gave opportunities to talented young drivers allbeit ones with funding. Otherwise they would simply be a place holder team.

Edited by Petroltorque, 07 December 2012 - 08:08.


#315 loki

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:54

No they couldn't. The F112 was an ill concieved shitbox. Yes next years tech regs are the same apart for areas of strengthened bodywork but KERS is an essential part of the formula. To merit an inclusion on the grid they would have to demonstrate a level of performance on par with Marussia and Caterham. Or failing that, reinvent the team as one which gave opportunities to talented young drivers allbeit ones with funding. Otherwise they would simply be a place holder team.


Without using an update to a current car it's too late for 2013. It would be in effect a placeholder team for 2013, even with a driver dev program or ride buyers. If one was going to design a car for 2014 they wouldn't need to buy HRT's assets. One advantage to coming in for 2013 would be the year to get your organizational and operations structure in place while you build a new car and perhaps get some seat time for some kids that might not otherwise get some.


#316 Petroltorque

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:09

Without using an update to a current car it's too late for 2013. It would be in effect a placeholder team for 2013, even with a driver dev program or ride buyers. If one was going to design a car for 2014 they wouldn't need to buy HRT's assets. One advantage to coming in for 2013 would be the year to get your organizational and operations structure in place while you build a new car and perhaps get some seat time for some kids that might not otherwise get some.

But one could argue that the F113 is simply an update to the existing chassis with a better packaging of components and suspension layout.I don't buy into the spiel that it would be a major upgrade. But there are enough ares one could improve once you get a car in some form onto the track. Essentially the tub would need to be light enough to carry Kers and a modified rear end to accomodate Coand exhausts. I agree it would still be a backs to the wall year but there are just not that many people capable of reviving an F1 team at short notice. I can think of only 2 organisations capable of doing it. Kolles and Prodrive and Prodrive is no longer interested in F1.
One well known F1 journalist describe Kolles as a team owner looking for a team and he's rescued the team before. The problem remains the time constraints. They'd need to work 24/7 for the next 2 months simply to pass crash tests and meet the final day of preseason testing.It's not likely that he'd need to hire extra staff apart from TD and Chief designer + aerodynamycist. It remains a very,very long shot. Someone would need to convince Thesan to sell the rights to the chassis and pay off any outstanding debt. I just don't see Kolles taking over a team with debt even if it's only euro 5 million.

Edited by Petroltorque, 08 December 2012 - 07:53.


#317 Sakae

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:25

Are the lights off then at HRT?

#318 Petroltorque

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:48

Are the lights off then at HRT?

If by lights off you mean the Spanish Team concept, then yes. It's dead. Kolles would be starting a new project using tub and power train deals HRT had.

#319 Sakae

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:59

Was departure out of F1 by HRT actually officially confirmed in public domain by FiA, and if not, what is holding it up?

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#320 george1981

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 15:39

I believe that Kolles already owns a facility that he could run the team from in Germany together with a lot of the other equipment such as trucks and transporters that the team needs. When he was running the team I think he outsourced most of the car construction, so in theory he could get going relatively quickly if needed to be.
Other people have said that Thesan capital has debts not HRT itself so Kolles wouldn't be picking up liabilities from the team.

#321 Felix

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 17:43

This set of allegations has done the rounds since yesterday, Friday:

Formtech Composites’ press release of 7th December 2012
To whom it may concern,
Formtech Composites Ltd. is a design, engineering and manufacturing company of high-end carbon solutions and products located in Milton Park, Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
Major customers are Formula 1 racing teams like:
• Force India F1
• Marussia F1
• Lotus Renault F1
• Caterham F1
• McLaren F1
• Hispania Racing Team F1 (HRT).

Other customers are automotive companies and /or suppliers to automotive companies, suppliers to the military sector and to minor extent to the aerospace industry.
In the last F1 season Formtech Composites sold a reasonable amount of money to the Spanish team HRT and it has come to our knowledge that they owe a substantial amount of money to other suppliers in the motorsports industry.

HRT decided by mid of November 2012 to stop the F1 Racing activity. Formtech Composites is one of their suppliers, who support them until the last race in Brasil. By 15th November a payment plan for all open invoices was jointly settled between HRT and Formtech Composites and 25% of the amount was paid according to the plan – leaving still substantial amount unpaid. One week later HRT changed the responsibility of their people involved in the case and stated the following:

• Liquidation procedures started on 12th November 2012 (so before payment plan was agreed).
• They are no longer in a position to pay 100% of the outstanding invoices
• The new offer is to pay 30p for every Euro owed across their entire creditor list, with no room
for negotiation.
• The owner of the HRT F1 is a Luxembourgian Fund (misleading Formtech Composites Ltd on the
possibilities of finding a viable way to chase the debt further).

According to Formtech Composites Ltd‘s knowledge, the owner of HRT (which was formerly owned by Campos Meta 1 SL) is to 100% Thesan Capital SL and no Luxembourgian Fund.
Formtech Composites doesn’t accept this misleading information tactics. Formtech Composites is going to investigate further into the true shareholder ship of HRT and Thesan Capital SL.

Any support from the press is highly appreciated in order to keep business standards to a civilized level within the motorsports industry.

For contacting Formtech Composites do not hesitate to call us 􏰀 Ms Yolanda Cuevas +44 1235 436078.
info@formtech-composites.com
www.formtech-composites.com
Registered Office:
Formtech Composites Limited, 176 Milton Park, Abingdon, Oxfordshire , OX14 4SE, UK Tel: +44 1235 834108
VAT Registered; 938702110

#322 Fastcake

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 19:42

Ouch, what a terrible way for the team to go out screwing over good companies like Formtech. Leaving a mountain of unpaid debt to all their suppliers and staff while the final owners try to run away from their obligations - and I thought HRT were at least better than the jokes of the nineties. :down:

#323 Petroltorque

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 19:52

I had called "shenanigans" on Thesan back in November 2011. But seriously Formtech should still be able to chase down the debts. Thesan Capital are still operating as a company. Going through the courts is their final recourse.

Edited by Petroltorque, 08 December 2012 - 19:55.


#324 Myrvold

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 20:27

Ouch, what a terrible way for the team to go out screwing over good companies like Formtech. Leaving a mountain of unpaid debt to all their suppliers and staff while the final owners try to run away from their obligations - and I thought HRT were at least better than the jokes of the nineties. :down:


Haven't heard about Force India? :)

#325 Fastcake

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 20:32

Haven't heard about Force India? :)


How is that similar? They've been caught paying some bills late, Mallya hasn't shut down the team and fled for the hills altogether.

#326 Sakae

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 08:10

If I understand this correctly, than there is not known commercial interest in the team, and there could be legal and technical problems for anyone to put a modified last year car on the grid in next March. If my assumptions are more or less accurate, I wonder then why Ecclestone doesn't come out about this and in plain language explain what impact this will have upon F1, if any at all. My apology to him if he did, but other than list of 2013 entrants I could not locate anything else, which is rather strange, since BE has plenty of opinions on everything else, including future of Europe. "State of the Union" type of speech could be nice, considering that CA was on the table, RRA is being hotly debated, no less than two teams are in financial focus, and our commercial right holder is lip tight. A sign of leadership would be nice.

#327 Clatter

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:12

If I understand this correctly, than there is not known commercial interest in the team, and there could be legal and technical problems for anyone to put a modified last year car on the grid in next March. If my assumptions are more or less accurate, I wonder then why Ecclestone doesn't come out about this and in plain language explain what impact this will have upon F1, if any at all. My apology to him if he did, but other than list of 2013 entrants I could not locate anything else, which is rather strange, since BE has plenty of opinions on everything else, including future of Europe. "State of the Union" type of speech could be nice, considering that CA was on the table, RRA is being hotly debated, no less than two teams are in financial focus, and our commercial right holder is lip tight. A sign of leadership would be nice.


It's 2 less cars on the grid. F1 won't miss a beat.


#328 Wingcommander

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:20

It's 2 less cars on the grid. F1 won't miss a beat.


And until we're down to 10 teams Bernie doesnt really care, as 20 cars is the minimum.

#329 Clatter

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:28

And until we're down to 10 teams Bernie doesnt really care, as 20 cars is the minimum.


Unless it's changed in the latest Concorde agreement the minimum requirement is 16 cars.


#330 pdac

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 14:36

This set of allegations has done the rounds since yesterday, Friday:

Formtech Composites’ press release of 7th December 2012
To whom it may concern,
Formtech Composites Ltd. is a design, engineering and manufacturing company of high-end carbon solutions and products located in Milton Park, Abingdon, Oxfordshire.
Major customers are Formula 1 racing teams like:
• Force India F1
• Marussia F1
• Lotus Renault F1
• Caterham F1
• McLaren F1
• Hispania Racing Team F1 (HRT).

Other customers are automotive companies and /or suppliers to automotive companies, suppliers to the military sector and to minor extent to the aerospace industry.
In the last F1 season Formtech Composites sold a reasonable amount of money to the Spanish team HRT and it has come to our knowledge that they owe a substantial amount of money to other suppliers in the motorsports industry.

HRT decided by mid of November 2012 to stop the F1 Racing activity. Formtech Composites is one of their suppliers, who support them until the last race in Brasil. By 15th November a payment plan for all open invoices was jointly settled between HRT and Formtech Composites and 25% of the amount was paid according to the plan – leaving still substantial amount unpaid. One week later HRT changed the responsibility of their people involved in the case and stated the following:

• Liquidation procedures started on 12th November 2012 (so before payment plan was agreed).
• They are no longer in a position to pay 100% of the outstanding invoices
• The new offer is to pay 30p for every Euro owed across their entire creditor list, with no room
for negotiation.
• The owner of the HRT F1 is a Luxembourgian Fund (misleading Formtech Composites Ltd on the
possibilities of finding a viable way to chase the debt further).

According to Formtech Composites Ltd‘s knowledge, the owner of HRT (which was formerly owned by Campos Meta 1 SL) is to 100% Thesan Capital SL and no Luxembourgian Fund.
Formtech Composites doesn’t accept this misleading information tactics. Formtech Composites is going to investigate further into the true shareholder ship of HRT and Thesan Capital SL.

Any support from the press is highly appreciated in order to keep business standards to a civilized level within the motorsports industry.

For contacting Formtech Composites do not hesitate to call us 􏰀 Ms Yolanda Cuevas +44 1235 436078.
info@formtech-composites.com
www.formtech-composites.com
Registered Office:
Formtech Composites Limited, 176 Milton Park, Abingdon, Oxfordshire , OX14 4SE, UK Tel: +44 1235 834108
VAT Registered; 938702110


The poor standard of English used leads me to conclude that this is not genuine.We shall see.

#331 Sakae

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 18:00

It's 2 less cars on the grid. F1 won't miss a beat.

Departure (if that is a case) of HRT then doesn't merits acknowledgement in a public statement by the office of F.O.M.? I thought that F1 was more than a common beer pub, a place, where people come and go at will and without anyone making big deal of it.

#332 g1n

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 18:33

Departure (if that is a case) of HRT then doesn't merits acknowledgement in a public statement by the office of F.O.M.? I thought that F1 was more than a common beer pub, a place, where people come and go at will and without anyone making big deal of it.


Many teams have left over the years, never seen any statements from FIA, why should there be? they are not the owners of the team(s).

#333 Fastcake

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 18:38

Departure (if that is a case) of HRT then doesn't merits acknowledgement in a public statement by the office of F.O.M.? I thought that F1 was more than a common beer pub, a place, where people come and go at will and without anyone making big deal of it.


They're not on the FIA entry list. Is that not enough of a statement?

#334 Sakae

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 19:02

Many teams have left over the years, never seen any statements from FIA, why should there be? they are not the owners of the team(s).

I did not expect a statement from FiA. My post stated FOM.

#335 Sakae

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 19:07

They're not on the FIA entry list. Is that not enough of a statement?

Depends; there was big fanfare with expansion, and now silence with contraction? How about some calming statement on state of CA, RRA, and similar matters? When Eccleston finds time to say that Europe has no future while whole world is listening, maybe he can also tell us how much future and what kind there is in F1 as whole world is listening, which would be perhaps more closer to his expertise.

#336 Clatter

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 19:25

I did not expect a statement from FiA. My post stated FOM.


Can't remember FOM making statements when teams have folded either. They wouldn't want to draw any undue attention to it.

#337 loki

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 20:44

But one could argue that the F113 is simply an update to the existing chassis with a better packaging of components and suspension layout.I don't buy into the spiel that it would be a major upgrade. But there are enough ares one could improve once you get a car in some form onto the track. Essentially the tub would need to be light enough to carry Kers and a modified rear end to accomodate Coand exhausts. I agree it would still be a backs to the wall year but there are just not that many people capable of reviving an F1 team at short notice. I can think of only 2 organisations capable of doing it. Kolles and Prodrive and Prodrive is no longer interested in F1.


Indeed. Which was my point as well. :wave: Get the F113 on track, make sure they can hit the 107% mark then focus all efforts on the 2014 car. It's possible but as you state the clock is running out.

I'd agree that Kolles is likely the only real prospect though I wonder what Peter Windsor is doing these days... :drunk:


#338 loki

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 21:08

If I understand this correctly, than there is not known commercial interest in the team, and there could be legal and technical problems for anyone to put a modified last year car on the grid in next March.


Anything bought in the liquidation, while having potential technical issues, would likely not have any legal issues surrounding the debt. It would be similar to purchasing something at an auction. I'm not familiar with how it operates in Spain or the UK but in the US the funds received from the disposal of assets go directly to paying down the creditors and any expense in winding down the operation. A judge is provided to oversee the liquidation and distributes the funds from such based on creditor priority and court filings from the creditors.

As an example Kolles would likely only purchase assets and intelectual property, not HRT as a going concern. If a party were interested in purchasing HRT as a complete operation (why I would have no idea since there is basically little, likely no value in the team as a whole) they would likely inherit the debit and contractual obligations of the operation. This doesn't appear to be the case as when the term "liquidation" is used, it typically means that the operation as an ongoing concern is finished and they are selling what they can to raise funds and wind down. The car and getting on track quickly in 2013 is perhaps the only thing of value that wouldn't be considered general second hand hardware and equipement such as tools, transporters, motorhomes, etc. They didn't own the facility, have a composite shop or windtunnel and it's possible the larger pieces of equipment, transporters and motorhomes for example, were leased.

Edited by loki, 09 December 2012 - 21:08.


#339 Sakae

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 21:52

Anything bought in the liquidation, while having potential technical issues, would likely not have any legal issues surrounding the debt. It would be similar to purchasing something at an auction. I'm not familiar with how it operates in Spain or the UK but in the US the funds received from the disposal of assets go directly to paying down the creditors and any expense in winding down the operation. A judge is provided to oversee the liquidation and distributes the funds from such based on creditor priority and court filings from the creditors.

As an example Kolles would likely only purchase assets and intelectual property, not HRT as a going concern. If a party were interested in purchasing HRT as a complete operation (why I would have no idea since there is basically little, likely no value in the team as a whole) they would likely inherit the debit and contractual obligations of the operation. This doesn't appear to be the case as when the term "liquidation" is used, it typically means that the operation as an ongoing concern is finished and they are selling what they can to raise funds and wind down. The car and getting on track quickly in 2013 is perhaps the only thing of value that wouldn't be considered general second hand hardware and equipement such as tools, transporters, motorhomes, etc. They didn't own the facility, have a composite shop or windtunnel and it's possible the larger pieces of equipment, transporters and motorhomes for example, were leased.

Thanks for input.

One asset that HRT had, however might have vanished as a deadline to pay a fee has past, was ticket for a position on 2013 grid. I am of course not privy if HRT was given an extra time and what is still possible, I do agree however that participation in 2013 could be good preparatory step for racing in 2014. Upgrade 2012 model to make the race within 107%, work on 2014 car, get one driver known for his decent input, team him up with some young hopeful for training purposes with the understanding, that real racing with expected results begins for you in March 2014.

Obvious weakness in this business model which I realize is its hopelessness. Someone who is short on cash probably cannot afford to finance 2013 and 2014 on parallel tracks, and people with deep pockets will not start with an empty floor, but will buy and take over Sauber, or alike, and carry on with existing operations. HRT operations might be really doomed.

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#340 Petroltorque

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:01

Thanks for input.

One asset that HRT had, however might have vanished as a deadline to pay a fee has past, was ticket for a position on 2013 grid. I am of course not privy if HRT was given an extra time and what is still possible, I do agree however that participation in 2013 could be good preparatory step for racing in 2014. Upgrade 2012 model to make the race within 107%, work on 2014 car, get one driver known for his decent input, team him up with some young hopeful for training purposes with the understanding, that real racing with expected results begins for you in March 2014.

Obvious weakness in this business model which I realize is its hopelessness. Someone who is short on cash probably cannot afford to finance 2013 and 2014 on parallel tracks, and people with deep pockets will not start with an empty floor, but will buy and take over Sauber, or alike, and carry on with existing operations. HRT operations might be really doomed.

As I understand it the 2014 aero regs have been scrapped thus giving some relief to smaller outfits. They would need to concentrate on the internal dynamics and packaging of the V6 turbo ERS and transmission to the current aero regs. No small task but no way as cost prohibitive as it might have been.
The real bug bear of any new operation is that they are no longer subject to the collective bargaining of the top 10. They'd have to arrange a separate deal deal from FOM. With CVC still holding the whip hand one wonders how much movement on subsidy one could get.

Edited by Petroltorque, 10 December 2012 - 07:01.


#341 Sakae

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:40

Rumour has it, that CVC would like to sell out, thus it stands to a reason that a product on the market is not as smelly when people trying to get in, rather than dropping off. Maybe CVC in its own interest would gladly cut someone else's a piece of pie, rather than their own money, of course, and offer that to a new owner.

#342 george1981

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 13:13

Other people have stated that Thesan owe money not HRT themselves. Is there any confirmation about this?

#343 Red17

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 20:06

Other people have stated that Thesan owe money not HRT themselves. Is there any confirmation about this?

Depends largely on the wording in the contracts. If we take the Formtech post as true for all contracts then Thesan hid itself behind HRT.
But nothing prevents the creditors from trying to chase Thesan in courts even if their name is absent in the papers.

#344 loki

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 20:22

Obvious weakness in this business model which I realize is its hopelessness. Someone who is short on cash probably cannot afford to finance 2013 and 2014 on parallel tracks, and people with deep pockets will not start with an empty floor, but will buy and take over Sauber, or alike, and carry on with existing operations. HRT operations might be really doomed.


Buying Sauber or perhaps Sahara/FI (if the finances and obligations aren't too much in arrears) even for $100 mil to me makes more sense than buying whatever little assets HRT have. I think HRT might make sense for Kolles as he's familiar with the operation and could pickup some IP and a starter car for pennies on the dollar and bootstrap it from there. I don't see how it would make sense to buy HRT assets if one isn't already equipped and capable of fielding the effort. And that list is pretty short.

#345 loki

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 20:26

Other people have stated that Thesan owe money not HRT themselves. Is there any confirmation about this?


It could be both. For example, until some of the businesses I've started were well and healthy on their own, I had to personally guarantee any credit, loans, etc. At that point both myself and the corporation were liable. If the corporation went bankrupt, I'd have to pony up the cash or file personal bankruptcy.


#346 Petroltorque

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:09

My understanding is that there is no chance of a Kolles project. There are no HRT assets apart from initial designs for 2013. In addition the FIA is not going to liceense a new 2013 entry.

#347 Sakae

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:25

I think it's over. For them, and for this thread. Outstanding from FiA point of view really is probably only a report on the case, LL assessment, and closure of the file, including financial obligations, if any. I doubt that anyone will be discharged of his duties for dubious judgement during approval process of this entrant.

#348 Petroltorque

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:37

I think it's over. For them, and for this thread. Outstanding from FiA point of view really is probably only a report on the case, LL assessment, and closure of the file, including financial obligations, if any. I doubt that anyone will be discharged of his duties for dubious judgement during approval process of this entrant.

The FIA's decision was based on Campos-Meta's application. That application was completely different to Thesan Capital's project. If you are arguing that the FIA should have vetted Thesan's buyout of Hispania that's different.

#349 Sakae

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:07

The FIA's decision was based on Campos-Meta's application. That application was completely different to Thesan Capital's project. If you are arguing that the FIA should have vetted Thesan's buyout of Hispania that's different.

I am not familiar with background details thus it's difficult to make any sensible comments, but (for chatting purposes) it is a fact, that the original applicant managed to conclude a contract with F1, content of which should have documented in general terms ability to support F1 operations, and in the case of sale to third party, just as a condition of FiA's approval of a new owner and his continued commitment and abilities to support F1 operations.

HRT was engaged relatively short period with F1, and absence of sufficient physical resources should have been warning to a diligent auditor, that entrant is unfit to support its F1 operations in competitive manner. Subsequent sale just reinforces perception that financial backing was never there in sufficient numbers. This all then begs a question, how did HRT managed to get in?

Edited by Sakae, 11 December 2012 - 17:29.


#350 Petroltorque

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 14:03

I think the moment Kolles cancelled the contract with Dallara the wheels came off the HRT project. Granted the car may not have been fully up to F1 standards but the project had been compromised by Campos' inability to maintain the payment schedules. Bear in mind that the established teams already had a year's worth of data in the formula. It would have been wiser to give Dallara a season to rectify the glitches and ditch the unreliable Xtrac drivetrain and hydraulics. I'm unsure how much the contract to Dallara was worth but it had to be less than the $25 million a year he was looking to pay Toyota.
The instant Kolles decided to run an inhouse project the cost of acquiring the expertise to design and build an F1 car became prohibitive. The irony was that he was still outsourcing the build program with added problems of quality control. That was not a problem when Dallara was chassis constructor.