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Will Horner go into the history as a great team principal?


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#1 sopa

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:58

Horner seems quite a disliked person on the forums and barely ever gets any proper praise. It looks like all RBR success has been credited to Newey with others been left out. A lot has been discussed about Vettel, but now let's take a look at Christian Horner. There have been many negative comments about him (mostly about appearances in the media), but is there a genious hiding behind the facade we don't see?

The fact is that Red Bull Racing keeps winning world championships, year in, year out. Ok, WDC of 2012 hasn't been clinched yet, but WCC of 2012 pretty much is. Horner as a team boss is responsible for the whole organization, so if the whole team is doing well, he must be doing something right. It looks like he is really good at team management and everyone in the team knows what they are doing and do it well and efficiently. Red Bull's car development speed is well-praised, but in addition to that their strategies, pitstops, trackside operations, etc, are all pretty good as well. So Horner has managed to establish and keep a very high-level all-round top team together for a long period.

Will he go into the history as a Great in his field (which is F1 team management)? Even if he is not recognized as such now and people are often not really thinking about it from such perspective? I often see Whitmarsh and Domenicali getting criticized for not being able to lead their respective legendary teams well enough. Brawn is highly-rated, but has not been able to deliver at Merc. Is Horner the real deal compared to all of them?

Edited by sopa, 13 November 2012 - 21:04.


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#2 THE "driverider"

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:12

The days of Dennis, Williams, Todt, Briatore, Jordan, etc. are long gone.

I would say Horner is better team principal than Domenicalli or Whitmarsh. So I would say he certainly will go down in history books but not on same level as the above mentioned.

#3 MrMontecarlo

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:20

If you have a great engineering team it's easy to look good.

#4 SCUDmissile

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:20

In my opinion, the central figure in RBR's success will always be Newey.
Horner has undoubtedly done a good job, especially in fighting RBR's corner when the teams tried to get their parts banned.

But I don't see much that makes him so much better than other TPs who get unecessary flak (Dom, even if I'm biased. Not many mistakes coming out the red camp so far), because the car isn't up to the standard of Newey's beasts, making his job a little easier.

#5 FenderJaguar

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:28

Horner will get a lot of praise with time. He is so much better than the rest of them.

#6 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:38

The days of Dennis, Williams, Todt, Briatore, Jordan, etc. are long gone.

I would say Horner is better team principal than Domenicalli or Whitmarsh. So I would say he certainly will go down in history books but not on same level as the above mentioned.

hmm.. Did Horner start a team from scratch? :)

#7 BackmarkerUK

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:39

hmm.. Did Horner start a team from scratch? :)


He started a team from scratch. Just not the F1 team he manages.

#8 H2H

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:49

Horner seems quite a disliked person on the forums and barely ever gets any proper praise. It looks like all RBR success has been credited to Newey with others been left out. A lot has been discussed about Vettel, but now let's take a look at Christian Horner. There have been many negative comments about him (mostly about appearances in the media), but is there a genious hiding behind the facade we don't see?

The fact is that Red Bull Racing keeps winning world championships, year in, year out. Ok, WDC of 2012 hasn't been clinched yet, but WCC of 2012 pretty much is. Horner as a team boss is responsible for the whole organization, so if the whole team is doing well, he must be doing something right. It looks like he is really good at team management and everyone in the team knows what they are doing and do it well and efficiently. Red Bull's car development speed is well-praised, but in addition to that their strategies, pitstops, trackside operations, etc, are all pretty good as well. So Horner has managed to establish and keep a very high-level all-round top team together for a long period.

Will he go into the history as a Great in his field (which is F1 team management)? Even if he is not recognized as such now and people are often not really thinking about it from such perspective? I often see Whitmarsh and Domenicali getting criticized for not being able to lead their respective legendary teams well enough. Brawn is highly-rated, but has not been able to deliver at Merc. Is Horner the real deal compared to all of them?


Most of the dislike has obviously to do with his success and the envy of the fans of other teams. So far he has done an excellent overall job and at a very young age at that.



#9 Risil

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:52

In my opinion, the central figure in RBR's success will always be Newey.


Not Mateschitz?

#10 Tonka

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:16

Horner has it easy compared to other TP's. He's not had to chase sponsors for starters. His results are not tied to sales of any sort. There's no corporate image to protect, so his drivers are happy bunnies. Finally, he's winning.

Let's see how long he lasts when RB stop winning.





#11 amppatel

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:26

Horner has it easy compared to other TP's. He's not had to chase sponsors for starters. His results are not tied to sales of any sort. There's no corporate image to protect, so his drivers are happy bunnies. Finally, he's winning.

Let's see how long he lasts when RB stop winning.


Well that's happened at the start of the season, and like you said he was quite rattled!

#12 LiJu914

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:33

In my opinion, the central figure in RBR's success will always be Newey.


...which also reflects well on Horner as a principal isnĀ“t there to do everything by his own, but to hire the best men for certain tasks.



#13 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:35

Did Horner appoint newey? If so, all those harping on about how easy he has it because newey designs great cars are being rather short sighted.

He's the one who sat newey down, explained the project and got him to sign, any subsequent good work by a team he forms should be credited to him! Good tp!

#14 Tonka

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:45

Did Horner appoint newey? If so, all those harping on about how easy he has it because newey designs great cars are being rather short sighted.

He's the one who sat newey down, explained the project and got him to sign, any subsequent good work by a team he forms should be credited to him! Good tp!



Newey wasn't likely to join any other team in 2005. He doesn't want to work outside of the UK and he was pissed with McLaren & Williams.

Edited by Tonka, 13 November 2012 - 22:46.


#15 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:48

Horner can take a lot of credit for putting the team together. Newey can't do everything, it needs a great technical team and a couple of great drivers. It's worth noting that Newey was looking to leave McLaren before RB existed, I recall him almost moving to Jaguar once 'for a change of stimulus'.

#16 sniper80

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:49

Horner has to thank his F1 succes to Adrian Newey, just like Vettel.
Take Newey away and the team will fall behind quickly.
I don't know how it could be Horner's merit to have signed Newey. The guy had nowhere else to go and Mateschitz (Red Bull) opened up his wallet to make Newey not leave F1 entirely.
Money is what makes the world go 'round, even more so in F1.

So please, Horner is nothing more than a PR person for the RB team. And a bad liar too as we saw last race. Nothing to rave about.

#17 H2H

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:52

Horner has to thank his F1 succes to Adrian Newey, just like Vettel.
Take Newey away and the team will fall behind quickly.
I don't know how it could be Horner's merit to have signed Newey. The guy had nowhere else to go and Mateschitz (Red Bull) opened up his wallet to make Newey not leave F1 entirely.
Money is what makes the world go 'round, even more so in F1.

So please, Horner is nothing more than a PR person for the RB team. And a bad liar too as we saw last race. Nothing to rave about.


Thanks for supporting my point :up:

Most of the dislike has obviously to do with his success and the envy of the fans of other teams. So far he has done an excellent overall job and at a very young age at that.



#18 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:53

Newey wasn't likely to join any other team in 2005. He doesn't want to work outside of the UK and he was pissed with McLaren & Williams.


Success is often down to chance and timing. I'd argue Hamilton is a better driver than vettel (conversation for another day) yet vettel will be 3x Wdc due to circumstances and timing. He joined red bull at the perfect moment, and its all fallen into place. You can't hold it against any of them that all he pieces came together at the right time!

Most successful businessmen owe an awful lot to being in the right place, at the right time.

#19 H2H

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 22:54

Most successful businessmen owe an awful lot to being in the right place, at the right time.


This is something on which we can agree.

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#20 slideways

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:56

It's well known that it was DC that lured Newey to Red Bull.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly. Horner is and has been a breath of fresh air to F1 after the Robots (Whitmarsh) and Puppets (Domenicali) that we have gotten used to.

#21 lbennie

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 05:45

Of course he will, to suggest otherwise is just sour grapes.

#22 SNiko

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:03

Where he was without Newey's rockets?

Edited by SNiko, 14 November 2012 - 06:03.


#23 Kingshark

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:08

Where he was without Newey's rockets?

Still managing Red Bull.

Where was Newey without Horner's management? Making Mclaren's as durable as cardboard?

Most of the dislike has obviously to do with his success and the envy of the fans of other teams. So far he has done an excellent overall job and at a very young age at that.

The truth that is.

#24 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:33

Most of the dislike has obviously to do with his success and the envy of the fans of other teams. So far he has done an excellent overall job and at a very young age at that.


:up:



Also Horner cant be compared to Brawn. Ross Brawn sucks at TP, like he sucked at everything else.

#25 Kingshark

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:41

Also Horner cant be compared to Brawn. Ross Brawn sucks at TP, like he sucked at everything else.

He always has? No way. Brawn was brilliant at Benetton and Ferrari. It seems that the "you're only as good as your last season" symptomatic has affected team principles too. Just like Schumacher, simply because his days at Mercedes weren't successful doesn't take away any credibility from his previous success.

#26 Gfhuus

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 07:24

McLarens 2012 campaign is great proof of how you need more than just a great design team to win championships. Giving all the credit to Newey is just silly. Horner is the man at the helm, he must be doing something right.

#27 jcbc3

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:22

Was Luca Cordero di Montezemolo a great team principal in the 70ies?
He sure went into history as such, even before Italia 90 and subsequent promotion within Ferrari.

Horner has done the exact same job, just better. By my postings through the years here, it should be abundantly clear that I am NOT a fan of him, Red Bull or Vettel. But I do recognise a job extremely well done when I see it.

#28 HPT

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 08:27

If you have a great engineering team it's easy to look good.


You can have a great team but if you don't know how to put the right people in the right places to fully exploit their potential then it accounts for nothing. Look at Newey at McLaren. He wasn't very successful under that structure post 2000.

Horner managed to turn RBR around from a mid field team - in every sense of the word from pace to pit stop efficiency - to a proper top F1 team. Yes he had Red Bull's money but do not forget Jaguar also had plenty of backing but went absolutely no where. Other examples include Toyota and BAR.

I was very surprised when Mateschitz hired him to be head the team when he was just 31 at that time. But he has certainly proven his worth.

By the way, I really dislike Horner (and Vettel too) but I have to give him credit for what he did.

#29 ali_M

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:03

I wonder how many posting here took the time to find out about Horner's background etc.?

Anyway, Newey's undoubted contribution to RBR's success, IMO, is being blown out of proportion. I'd be very careful disrespecting what isn't clear or not easily noticed. The team couldn't be successful without the injection of technical ingenuity and Newey contributes greatly to this. However, that's only one part of the puzzle that creates the sustained run of success that RBR is currently enjoying. Horner deserves credit and big time.

#30 femi

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:15

I would say yes. True he had AN to design those championship winning cars and he took advantage of that to the fullest. AN was with Mclaren for a long time but were unable to take nothing close to his "genius".

His successes actually underscores the ineptitudeness of Mclaren's management, this year is a prime example of that. What have they got to show for having what is widely acknowledged as the fastest car on the grid for most of this season?

#31 oetzi

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 09:20

Horner has it easy compared to other TP's...There's no corporate image to protect

:drunk:

Red Bull are the only team that exists purely as a marketing exercise.

Given that's the case, he's done an amazing job putting them where they are,

Shame people are so reluctant to give him credit for it.


#32 Atreiu

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 10:35

Isn't it too early for that?

#33 Baddoer

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:06

No, he is just rubbish.

#34 sailor

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:53

I would say yes. True he had AN to design those championship winning cars and he took advantage of that to the fullest. AN was with Mclaren for a long time but were unable to take nothing close to his "genius".

His successes actually underscores the ineptitudeness of Mclaren's management, this year is a prime example of that. What have they got to show for having what is widely acknowledged as the fastest car on the grid for most of this season?


Exactly - where RBR succeed is in 2 areas

1> Having a top class driver - Horner shud get credit for retaining the talent which any team would cut an arm for.
2> Great team operational management and strategy - Horner shud get credit for that.

The above two factors override the percieved superiority of car design and AN in particular. The RB8 is not the fastest car any any streach of imagination otherwise Webber would finish right behind Seb all the time.



#35 matzy

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:41

out of the current crop, he is certainly up there.

#36 maverick69

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 13:58

Very impressive manager for somebody who is still pretty young in F1 terms.

He's got the best out of Newey, his engineering team, his drivers, his operations..... Even with a constant push by the FIA and other teams to clip Red Bull's wings.

If I was setting up an F1 team, Horner and Newey would be by far the first names on my list....... Because the rest would follow.........


#37 Impellam

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 14:31

there seem to be two main 'accusations' raised against Horner on here:

1. He's not in the mould of the 'old style' TP's like Dennis, Williams, Jordan etc. Actually, he's closer to the mould than most others. He was a struggling racer trying to run his own car up to F3000 (I remember talking to him in the garage at Spa during F3000 qualy, whilst his car was having it's gearbox stripped - considering that he couldn't understand the mechanics as he was team 'sharing' with kurt mollekens and didn't speak Flemish, had scraped together the funds to be present and was watching whilst everyone else was running down to Eau Rouge a few feet away, he was remarkably sanguine about the experience), gave up the driving dream and started from scratch to build his own f3000 team (including a couple of false starts along the way) and developed it into a leading GP2 outfit to me counts as doing his 'apprenticeship' the hard and 'old-style' way.

2. He would be nothing without Newey. I'm not sure that frank Williams would be where he is without Patrick Head, Ross Brawn without Rory Byrne etc etc. No Team principle is going to be automatically succesful without the correct core team of engineers/designers/drivers, but part of the skill is in assembling such a team and managing them to be succesful, a la Todt at Ferrari and what Brawn is trying to create again at Mercedes.

Having resources is of course a help, but has never been the garuntor of success. Given that he's managed to keep a diverse group of extremely talented individuals motivated as a team for many years, both on the way up and whilst at the top, is no mean feat. Who knows whether he will be recorded in history as a 'great', but he got to where he is through graft and determination and can seemingly lead a complex organisation so good luck to the guy.

#38 maverick69

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 14:44

there seem to be two main 'accusations' raised against Horner on here:

1. He's not in the mould of the 'old style' TP's like Dennis, Williams, Jordan etc. Actually, he's closer to the mould than most others. He was a struggling racer trying to run his own car up to F3000 (I remember talking to him in the garage at Spa during F3000 qualy, whilst his car was having it's gearbox stripped - considering that he couldn't understand the mechanics as he was team 'sharing' with kurt mollekens and didn't speak Flemish, had scraped together the funds to be present and was watching whilst everyone else was running down to Eau Rouge a few feet away, he was remarkably sanguine about the experience), gave up the driving dream and started from scratch to build his own f3000 team (including a couple of false starts along the way) and developed it into a leading GP2 outfit to me counts as doing his 'apprenticeship' the hard and 'old-style' way.

2. He would be nothing without Newey. I'm not sure that frank Williams would be where he is without Patrick Head, Ross Brawn without Rory Byrne etc etc. No Team principle is going to be automatically succesful without the correct core team of engineers/designers/drivers, but part of the skill is in assembling such a team and managing them to be succesful, a la Todt at Ferrari and what Brawn is trying to create again at Mercedes.

Having resources is of course a help, but has never been the garuntor of success. Given that he's managed to keep a diverse group of extremely talented individuals motivated as a team for many years, both on the way up and whilst at the top, is no mean feat. Who knows whether he will be recorded in history as a 'great', but he got to where he is through graft and determination and can seemingly lead a complex organisation so good luck to the guy.


:up:

Great post. Thanks for the insight.



#39 boldhakka

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 15:47

there seem to be two main 'accusations' raised against Horner on here:

1. He's not in the mould of the 'old style' TP's like Dennis, Williams, Jordan etc. Actually, he's closer to the mould than most others. He was a struggling racer trying to run his own car up to F3000 (I remember talking to him in the garage at Spa during F3000 qualy, whilst his car was having it's gearbox stripped - considering that he couldn't understand the mechanics as he was team 'sharing' with kurt mollekens and didn't speak Flemish, had scraped together the funds to be present and was watching whilst everyone else was running down to Eau Rouge a few feet away, he was remarkably sanguine about the experience), gave up the driving dream and started from scratch to build his own f3000 team (including a couple of false starts along the way) and developed it into a leading GP2 outfit to me counts as doing his 'apprenticeship' the hard and 'old-style' way.

2. He would be nothing without Newey. I'm not sure that frank Williams would be where he is without Patrick Head, Ross Brawn without Rory Byrne etc etc. No Team principle is going to be automatically succesful without the correct core team of engineers/designers/drivers, but part of the skill is in assembling such a team and managing them to be succesful, a la Todt at Ferrari and what Brawn is trying to create again at Mercedes.

Having resources is of course a help, but has never been the garuntor of success. Given that he's managed to keep a diverse group of extremely talented individuals motivated as a team for many years, both on the way up and whilst at the top, is no mean feat. Who knows whether he will be recorded in history as a 'great', but he got to where he is through graft and determination and can seemingly lead a complex organisation so good luck to the guy.


:up:

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#40 sopa

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:10

One more thought from me. When back in 2005 Horner was announced as RBR team principal, I was quite suspicious and thought that this young man is gonna be eaten alive by all those vastly experienced proven piranhas.

But he has gradually proven all that wrong. First of all he helped RBR to establish itself as a solid respectable strong midfield team (2005-08) after the mess that Jaguar left behind. After that they could go one further and become a top team.

It would certainly be interesting to see, what can RBR do without Newey, but without a doubt RBR is a strong all-around organization. They can remain a front-runner even after Newey has left, sort of like McLaren has managed in the post-Newey era. Depends, how well have they been grooming the new generation of engineers in the company, but if they have any foresight they have been working on it.

#41 Vic Vega

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:14

I would say Horner is better team principal than Domenicalli or Whitmarsh. So I would say he certainly will go down in history books but not on same level as the above mentioned.

Oh man, those two clowns are fierce competition. In that regard, he's likely on his way to a street named after him.

Edited by Vic Vega, 14 November 2012 - 17:17.


#42 Zava

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:19

Depends, how well have they been grooming the new generation of engineers in the company, but if they have any foresight they have been working on it.

I don't think James Key is at STR by accident.  ;)

#43 bsrf1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 17:38

It is easy to manage when things are falling in place and succeeding. I would rate Jean Todt and Ron Dennis as greats and Horner as good for the moment.

#44 ayali

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 20:14

there seem to be two main 'accusations' raised against Horner on here:

1. He's not in the mould of the 'old style' TP's like Dennis, Williams, Jordan etc. Actually, he's closer to the mould than most others. He was a struggling racer trying to run his own car up to F3000 (I remember talking to him in the garage at Spa during F3000 qualy, whilst his car was having it's gearbox stripped - considering that he couldn't understand the mechanics as he was team 'sharing' with kurt mollekens and didn't speak Flemish, had scraped together the funds to be present and was watching whilst everyone else was running down to Eau Rouge a few feet away, he was remarkably sanguine about the experience), gave up the driving dream and started from scratch to build his own f3000 team (including a couple of false starts along the way) and developed it into a leading GP2 outfit to me counts as doing his 'apprenticeship' the hard and 'old-style' way.

2. He would be nothing without Newey. I'm not sure that frank Williams would be where he is without Patrick Head, Ross Brawn without Rory Byrne etc etc. No Team principle is going to be automatically succesful without the correct core team of engineers/designers/drivers, but part of the skill is in assembling such a team and managing them to be succesful, a la Todt at Ferrari and what Brawn is trying to create again at Mercedes.

Having resources is of course a help, but has never been the garuntor of success. Given that he's managed to keep a diverse group of extremely talented individuals motivated as a team for many years, both on the way up and whilst at the top, is no mean feat. Who knows whether he will be recorded in history as a 'great', but he got to where he is through graft and determination and can seemingly lead a complex organisation so good luck to the guy.

good post :up:

I guess winning 3 championships on the trot will cement his place in the F1 team principal hall of fame
Well deserved and at such a young age
exceptional performance and person

#45 sniper80

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:09

Colin Chapman is the true greatest principal of all time, then followed by Enzo & Ron Dennis. If you see what Dennis is doing with McLaren these days, all these foundations were laid down when he was still doing F1 as well.

#46 ayali

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:13

Colin Chapman is the true greatest principal of all time, then followed by Enzo & Ron Dennis. If you see what Dennis is doing with McLaren these days, all these foundations were laid down when he was still doing F1 as well.

Thank you very interesting to hear your opinion on them but it seems to have escaped you that this thread is about another great team principal named Christian Horner

#47 Jon83

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:28

I like Horner. I don't get the dislike for him or Vettel to be honest.

#48 rijole1

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 21:35

I think so. He's done a great job.