Jump to content


Photo

DRS practice and qualifying rules to be changed for 2013 (merged)


  • Please log in to reply
100 replies to this topic

#1 D.M.N.

D.M.N.
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,142 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:44

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperf1
#F1 FIA's Charlie Whiting confirms that from 2013 DRS can only be used in the official DRS zone during practice and qualifying. Previously drivers could use DRS wherever they wanted to around the lap on Friday and Saturday.
9:42 PM - 15 Nov 12

Advertisement

#2 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,805 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:45

Meh, just get rid of it...

#3 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,371 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:47

I think Charlie Whiting is just a manifestation of Adrian Newey's superego. Every time he comes up with some circumvention or twisting of the intent of the rules, the Headmaster comes and slaps them down.

How are the going to sort out that stuff with the gear ratios?



#4 DN5

DN5
  • Member

  • 276 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:49

Makes sense - I can't understand why there is a non raceday feature that can't be used in the race.

Geoff

#5 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:49

Who will this effect the most?

Red Bull?

#6 ayali

ayali
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:50

A -futile- attempt to curb Red Bull perhaps
They should to this as the ultimate compliment :lol:

#7 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,044 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:50

Smooth FIA, real smooth. *Slow claps*

Now teams will gear the cars shorter for the 90 odd percent of the lap that isn't DRS assisted, so when the time comes to use DRS in the race they'll just bounce off the rev limiter.

#8 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,254 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:50

That may quite dramatically reduce it's effectiveness as an overtaking aid, unless the F.I.A also increases the length of the DRS zones and or the size of the slot gap.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 15 November 2012 - 21:51.


#9 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,254 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:52

Smooth FIA, real smooth. *Slow claps*

Now teams will gear the cars shorter for the 90 odd percent of the lap that isn't DRS assisted, so when the time comes to use DRS in the race they'll just bounce off the rev limiter.

:up: exactly, not a great idea in my book.

#10 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 6,790 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:54

Incredibly disappointing, what made quali so fun to watch (and drive in the F1 games) was watching drivers push the limit of where they could use DRS, with it also being a good indicator as to how good the cars were. It also had a useful function of forcing teams to compromise between quali and race, and meant that teams were usually spread out on a spectrum, with some faster on quali pace, and others faster during the race. Now however any skill in using it has been removed and it is now reduced to a method of artificially passing (despite the fact it's a poor compromise solving the dirty air problem).

On the plus side this might benefit Mercedes, Lotus and their passive stall systems.

#11 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 15 November 2012 - 21:56

This change doesn't make any sense to me, and it could use some explanation. Despite that I actually hate whole idea of using DRS at any time, I do however understand for what it is used on Sunday. Who cares hwoever if they are using it on Saturday? They aren't racing to gain a track position, but a better lap time. Everyone has it, everyone can use it as much as they want, so what's the problem?

#12 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,852 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:13

This change doesn't make any sense to me, and it could use some explanation. Despite that I actually hate whole idea of using DRS at any time, I do however understand for what it is used on Sunday. Who cares hwoever if they are using it on Saturday? They aren't racing to gain a track position, but a better lap time. Everyone has it, everyone can use it as much as they want, so what's the problem?

The problem, and I'm assuming, is that it has become to big of a performance differentiator in qualifying when the intention for it's introduction was solely to aid overtaking.

Can't say I'm disappointed by the change.

#13 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

HuddersfieldTerrier1986
  • Member

  • 1,812 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:13

In a way it makes sense, in that they only want you to use it in the same places you'd use it in the race, but as others have said, it does reduce the chances of compromising between quali and the race in terms of gearing, as you could basically either set your car up for overtaking in the race or set it up to get the ultimate lap time in quali with the hope of being able to pull clear of other cars around the DRS zone in the race.

#14 PorcupineTroy

PorcupineTroy
  • Member

  • 289 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:15

I was always under the impression that the reason it was usable throughout the whole lap in qualifying was to encourage teams to select "DRS-friendly" gear ratios for the weekend. Otherwise, there wasn't much incentive to have a taller 7th gear, which would allow you to gain more speed with the slot open but would be less than optimal with the slot closed.

I guess I had the wrong impression.

#15 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,901 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:16

I think this makes sense. DRS being used differently in Quali and the race is a bit odd IMO. About the gearing issue, that is another issue altogether in those damn parc ferme regulations. Those should be freed up aswell, but I think this makes sense.

#16 PinkZepStones

PinkZepStones
  • Member

  • 220 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:19

Smooth FIA, real smooth. *Slow claps*

Now teams will gear the cars shorter for the 90 odd percent of the lap that isn't DRS assisted, so when the time comes to use DRS in the race they'll just bounce off the rev limiter.


Hmmmm I did initially think this, but drs helps now when all cars compromis quali and race gearing sometimes by big margin, so won't it surely work the same way with all cars again compromising drs gears etc

#17 alfa1

alfa1
  • Member

  • 1,760 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:19

In a way it makes sense, in that they only want you to use it in the same places you'd use it in the race, but as others have said, it does reduce the chances of compromising between quali and the race in terms of gearing, as you could basically either set your car up for overtaking in the race or set it up to get the ultimate lap time in quali with the hope of being able to pull clear of other cars around the DRS zone in the race.



Hopefully teams will have finally realised with Vettel's run last race that overtaking is EASY now if you have the DRS speed, and qualifying position doesnt really matter as much anymore.
The advantages of being able to sail past your opponents (in the race) massively outweighs the advantage in getting an extra spot or two further up the grid (in qualy).


#18 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,543 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:25

Meh, just get rid of it...


Our survey says... ding ding ding!

#19 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:28

FIA making another horrible rule change, what else is new? Gets rid of the only real challenge for F1 drivers.

Advertisement

#20 MrMontecarlo

MrMontecarlo
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:39

DRS sucks so much, just get rid of it.
Formula 1 was fine for 60 years without it, it's unbelievable how the FIA is always trying to reinvent the wheel.

#21 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 5,161 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:42

Smooth FIA, real smooth. *Slow claps*

Now teams will gear the cars shorter for the 90 odd percent of the lap that isn't DRS assisted, so when the time comes to use DRS in the race they'll just bounce off the rev limiter.


Most of the lap they are not in 7th gear so I'm not sure it will make much of a difference, as it's in the DRS zones when 7th is used.

#22 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,201 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:43

Bad idea, for reasons noted in this thread already. Now it feels like an artificial overtaking aid as opposed to a genuine technological asset. :down:

#23 MrMontecarlo

MrMontecarlo
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:43

Actually they can bin it or let the teams use it every time, in qualy and in the race. But no gimmicks please!

#24 g1n

g1n
  • Member

  • 874 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 15 November 2012 - 22:59

DRS sucks so much, just get rid of it.
Formula 1 was fine for 60 years without it, it's unbelievable how the FIA is always trying to reinvent the wheel.


with the current aero, if one car is 1 second behind another, then it loses a lot of down force and under steers badly, this has led to implementation of DRS, I have tried this situation in a sim and it is pretty annoying without DRS, unless you are 2-3 seconds faster than the car in front you will not be able to overtake.

There has been a lot of people within f1 talking about under steer whilst being behind another car, where have you been??

#25 MrMontecarlo

MrMontecarlo
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 15 November 2012 - 23:03

with the current aero, if one car is 1 second behind another, then it loses a lot of down force and under steers badly, this has led to implementation of DRS, I have tried this situation in a sim and it is pretty annoying without DRS, unless you are 2-3 seconds faster than the car in front you will not be able to overtake.

There has been a lot of people within f1 talking about under steer whilst being behind another car, where have you been??


Then fix the aero, but don't create an artificial solution.

#26 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 15 November 2012 - 23:12

The problem, and I'm assuming, is that it has become to big of a performance differentiator in qualifying when the intention for it's introduction was solely to aid overtaking.

Can't say I'm disappointed by the change.


Agreed.

In fact DRS use should not be allowed during qualifying at all if you look at the purpose for its creation.

#27 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,762 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 15 November 2012 - 23:30

Great news. This could be huge advantage for Lotus if their passive device system works!

#28 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,662 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:02

Autosport reports

"We are going to prohibit the use of the DRS during practice and qualifying except in the places where it's going to be used in the race," said Whiting.
"It's something that we told the teams about the other day, that we are doing it for safety reasons.
"There have been a number of incidents and drivers have told me that it's becoming increasingly prevalent [for the early deployment of DRS to cause problems].
"One could argue that the early deployment of the DRS is not much different to early deployment of the throttle, but the DRS is an on/off switch whereas the throttle can be modulated."

"The whole point of the DRS was to improve overtaking opportunities in the race," said Whiting.
"We didn't really want to have it used in qualifying and practice before but we were worried that we may not have effective DRS systems.
"Now I believe [based on] all the information we have, we should not see any reduction in the power of the DRS.
"Teams will still use it because even though they're allowed to use it in perhaps two places on the circuit, the benefit will still be there.
"I'm sure that it will work just as it does now."


Ed Straw thinks similarly in the linked article. I doubt that they are correct, but we will see.

#29 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,261 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:03

I suppose they will claim the change is based on safety grounds.

#30 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,008 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:06

Get rid of it completely.

#31 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,334 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:15

Then fix the aero, but don't create an artificial solution.


Precisely, i said long ago that the way to fix this issue is to put in rules that at certain distance behind a car there should be aerodynamic pressure of XYZ value. In short the aerodynamic of the car shouldn't disturb the air behind at level it does today.

#32 tarmac

tarmac
  • Member

  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:20

So Lotus style duct is a must now

Edited by tarmac, 16 November 2012 - 00:21.


#33 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:41

Get rid of DRS, introduce push to pass.

#34 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,308 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:41

Autosport reports


Ed Straw thinks similarly in the linked article. I doubt that they are correct, but we will see.


DRS is in danger of becoming something mainly used by midfield teams. Even before this rule change, Red Bull and sometimes McLaren have been running lower gear ratios, which give an advantage at the start of the race in clean air but make overtaking very difficult, especially towards the end of the race. Vettel's changed setup in Abu Dhabi was an exception of course.



#35 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 00:58

So Lotus style duct is a must now


Except nobody can get it to work, and it only gives a slight boost in top speed anyway.

#36 Obi Offiah

Obi Offiah
  • Member

  • 8,254 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:01

I think the way forward would variable under body aero or limited active ride control.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 16 November 2012 - 01:40.


#37 crbassassin

crbassassin
  • Member

  • 332 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:05

Get rid of DRS, introduce push to pass.

Its there already, its called KERS.

#38 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 6,010 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:14

I've never got why they could use it anywhere outside the race in the first place.

Smooth FIA, real smooth. *Slow claps*

Now teams will gear the cars shorter for the 90 odd percent of the lap that isn't DRS assisted, so when the time comes to use DRS in the race they'll just bounce off the rev limiter.


Some would argue if it makes DRS less effective that is a good thing.

Bad idea, for reasons noted in this thread already. Now it feels like an artificial overtaking aid as opposed to a genuine technological asset. :down:


It is an artificial overtaking aid.

I suppose they will claim the change is based on safety grounds.


They have. I think that means the FIA can push through a new rule without opposition.

Get rid of DRS, introduce push to pass.


What's the difference?


#39 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,610 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:26

how many straights which arent a drs zone do they reach 160+~mph anyways?

Advertisement

#40 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,201 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 04:18

It is an artificial overtaking aid.

There was nothing strictly artificial about DRS itself unless you consider movable aerodynamic devices 'artificial' in the face of the old regulations. Overtaking zones were the artificial part, DRS itself was not. By moving the use of DRS exclusively into the overtaking zones, they're highlighting its use as an artificial overtaking aid as opposed to a technological challenge.

I don't understand why nobody ever bothers to separate the DRS technology itself from overtaking zones, because they're two entirely different concepts.

#41 gillesthegenius

gillesthegenius
  • Member

  • 2,534 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:38

Who will this effect the most?

Red Bull?


Obviously. :D

#42 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 5,083 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:14

About time.

#43 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:22

I read just about anything written what I could find on internet why the rule is being changed, and I do not mind to admit that technical substance still escaping me, and more I read about it, more I am getting convinced that true reasons are yet to be told.

#44 Kompressor

Kompressor
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:44

Who will this effect the most?

Red Bull?


Mercedes had the most invested in ddrs. I'm glad it's being banned outside of racing.


#45 sanW10

sanW10
  • Member

  • 130 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:20

Who will this effect the most?

Red Bull?

Mercedes AMG :rotfl:

#46 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,017 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:28

There was nothing strictly artificial about DRS itself unless you consider movable aerodynamic devices 'artificial' in the face of the old regulations. Overtaking zones were the artificial part, DRS itself was not. By moving the use of DRS exclusively into the overtaking zones, they're highlighting its use as an artificial overtaking aid as opposed to a technological challenge.

I don't understand why nobody ever bothers to separate the DRS technology itself from overtaking zones, because they're two entirely different concepts.


Of course its bloody artifical if only the chasing driver is allowed to use it.


This change makes absolutely no sense in terms of gearing. Cars will now gear for a slower top speed and DRS will essentially be useless.

#47 korzeniow

korzeniow
  • Member

  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:33

Great news. This could be huge advantage for Lotus if their passive device system works!


Yeap :cat:

Also from the Lotus supporter perspective thise rule change seems good because Lotus don't have the most efficient DRS and good top speed (at least in the second half of this season)

#48 korzeniow

korzeniow
  • Member

  • 5,671 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:36

Except nobody can get it to work, and it only gives a slight boost in top speed anyway.


Depends on the track, there were reports it was worth around 0.5 sec at Spa

#49 MrMontecarlo

MrMontecarlo
  • Member

  • 546 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:59

There was nothing strictly artificial about DRS itself unless you consider movable aerodynamic devices 'artificial' in the face of the old regulations. Overtaking zones were the artificial part, DRS itself was not. By moving the use of DRS exclusively into the overtaking zones, they're highlighting its use as an artificial overtaking aid as opposed to a technological challenge.

I don't understand why nobody ever bothers to separate the DRS technology itself from overtaking zones, because they're two entirely different concepts.


You're right, I sometimes make that mistake. I'm fine with DRS as a technology, just don't like the stupid overtaking zone system.

#50 McRules

McRules
  • Member

  • 173 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:19

I suggested this sometime in the middle of last year with exactly the same reason in this forum, but the redbull fans thought that i was against them inspite of me reasoning the same..."DRS was primarily introduced to aid overtaking in the RACE so no point in qualifying".