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United States Grand Prix Free Practice 3 and Qualifying thread


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#451 f1rookie

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 00:01

Qualifying in Pictures F1 2012 American Grand Prix

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More Pictures - http://www.formula1o...2-american.html






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#452 Kelateboy

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:13

Edit: @SkyF1Insider: Hamilton to webber 'you boys are so quick' webber to hamilton 'no, he's the quick one' (jestures towards sebastian)

This is quite hilarious... :rotfl:

#453 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:51

Schumacher is still the best its just a matter of the modern format and particular car.

Schumacher is still the best driver in the world, just not at the discipline that represents the pinnacle of motorsport!

#454 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:52

I hope Brundle does a Ham/Vet overlay in the show tomorrow. 2 laps on the limit.

Oh, yeah! That would be brilliant.

#455 baddog

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:08

Not even sure why they were called to the stewards at all with that information.

Because Alonso threw a tantie over the radio and the team yelled on his bhalf. I guess once they knew the situation the stewards probably asked him why they were even having this conversation..

#456 nada12

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:00

Even though Alonso seems to be beyond reproach lately, that was a stinker of a quali at a crucial time. Not keeping his cool and overdriving the car. I can only imagine the amount of malice that would go towards Vettel if he had put in this effort.

#457 Ricardo F1

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:46

Even though Alonso seems to be beyond reproach lately, that was a stinker of a quali at a crucial time. Not keeping his cool and overdriving the car. I can only imagine the amount of malice that would go towards Vettel if he had put in this effort.

He's not had to for a while. Who would know?


#458 fastwriter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:13

Qualification: :: Sector times :: Max speeds :: Lap Chart



If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

Edited by fastwriter, 18 November 2012 - 09:14.


#459 peroa

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:32

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

It's no myth, since Newey got his sh** together again in Singapore the car looks to be working/set-up like in 2011, which means the main advantage comes under braking and in slower corners where the exhaust is providing more downforce and stability.


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#460 Uwe

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:36

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver

It could be possible that RB learned from their Abu Dhabi race and doesn't simply go for grip in their race setup, like it was in their previous races. Seb was not much slower in sector 1 but had very good top speed in sector 2. Until Abu Dhabi the RB usually was the slowest car through the speed traps but not so anymore.

With their old setup it was always a risk because if Seb didn't end up on pole after Qualifying he would have a difficult race due to his low top speed and therefore problems with overtaking other cars. Now he compromised his lap time a bit for better overtaking ability (if my speculation is correct) and as it turned out even that was enough to land on pole. Seb's sector 1 time shows that even with a top end setup the RB is very good through fast corners.

Nevertheless: Seb is an exceptional qualifyer.

#461 moorsey

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:39

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true. Sector 1 is the downforce-sector on this track. There, Hamilton was fastest. Vettel made his time on the slow and twitchy part of the track in sector three.

Two explanations:

a) the Red Bull has a better traction than other cars (but why was Webber 0,2 tenths off Vettel alone in this sector?)

b) SV found a better line through this stadium section than any other driver


I understand that Vettel had a new wing ("which only arrived last night") but do we know whether it was just his car or did Webber have the same new wing? It may just have been the final piece of this weekend's jigsaw.

#462 Zava

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:53

It could be possible that RB learned from their Abu Dhabi race and doesn't simply go for grip in their race setup, like it was in their previous races. Seb was not much slower in sector 1 but had very good top speed in sector 2. Until Abu Dhabi the RB usually was the slowest car through the speed traps but not so anymore.

With their old setup it was always a risk because if Seb didn't end up on pole after Qualifying he would have a difficult race due to his low top speed and therefore problems with overtaking other cars. Now he compromised his lap time a bit for better overtaking ability (if my speculation is correct) and as it turned out even that was enough to land on pole. Seb's sector 1 time shows that even with a top end setup the RB is very good through fast corners.

Nevertheless: Seb is an exceptional qualifyer.

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html
23 1 Sebastian Vettel 12:38:24 308.4
24 2 Mark Webber 12:55:28 308.0

#463 sailor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:57

I'm not sure how you're getting there ; Vettel has had a completely dominant qualifying car for two and half years. To me there's no question Lewis's lap today > Vettel's ; but that's because one is fighting to wring everything out of the car and the other has a car that pretty much does what he tells it to. Both great laps, just one easier to do than the other. I'd say they're probably as close to on a par as you can get.

As u saw yesterday. Lewis wud be on pole if not for 2 lock ups and 2 missed apices.

Leads me to believe that RB8 is dominant only in Vettel s hands.


#464 karlth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:44

If you analyse the sector times, you clearly can see, that the neverending myth of RB having a lot more downforce than the others is not quite true.


If I drove the RB in sector 1 it would have been slower than the HRT, confirming that the RB has hardly any downforce at all.

See the fault in your logic?

#465 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:49

Even though Alonso seems to be beyond reproach lately, that was a stinker of a quali at a crucial time. Not keeping his cool and overdriving the car. I can only imagine the amount of malice that would go towards Vettel if he had put in this effort.


This is why I think Alonso, despite being such a great driver, shouldn't be considered in the same category as Schumacher. I was thinking "I have to hand it to Alonso this year, he's been above reproach" - but I want Sebastian to take it tomorrow, because this thing of throwing a tantrum when his team mate is in front, or when reality comes to the fore (ala when Lewis handed him his lunch at McLaren) is a big weakness for him. Schumacher never flipped out if Ruben's qualified ahead of him - usually seemed happy for him, actually - and when the cards were down he didn't turn into a spastic gesticulating monkey in the cockpit. Schumacher at his angriest - when he went after DC - consisted of a brisker walking speed and a tense jaw, *after* qualifying.

Hamilton gets derided for being all reflexes, but it was a small team mistake that led to "his mistake" in China his first year, spinning on tires worn to the threads. Alonso seems a cool customer *right up to the moment of truth*. I think Kimi in Alonso's position would be a different story for that very reason.





#466 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:03

This is why I think Alonso, despite being such a great driver, shouldn't be considered in the same category as Schumacher. I was thinking "I have to hand it to Alonso this year, he's been above reproach" - but I want Sebastian to take it tomorrow, because this thing of throwing a tantrum when his team mate is in front, or when reality comes to the fore (ala when Lewis handed him his lunch at McLaren) is a big weakness for him. Schumacher never flipped out if Ruben's qualified ahead of him - usually seemed happy for him, actually - and when the cards were down he didn't turn into a spastic gesticulating monkey in the cockpit. Schumacher at his angriest - when he went after DC - consisted of a brisker walking speed and a tense jaw, *after* qualifying.

Hamilton gets derided for being all reflexes, but it was a small team mistake that led to "his mistake" in China his first year, spinning on tires worn to the threads. Alonso seems a cool customer *right up to the moment of truth*. I think Kimi in Alonso's position would be a different story for that very reason.


Please....

Many excellent drivers showed signs of pressure.

To name a few:
- Senna almost stalled his car in Suzuka 88 and was lucky to keep going
- When the WDC went into the final stages in 1991 Senna was outqualified by Berger three times in a row. That was also the season, in which Mansell decided to beach his car in a race he had to win...
- MSC almost ended his WDC 94 in Adelaide, but fortunately for him Hill was "close enough".
- Hamilton didn´t exactly deliver a stunning performance in Interlagos 08
- Button couldn´t cope with the pressure for almost the complete 2nd half of the 09-season (he himself admitted that)
etc.

Being outqualifed is not exactly the biggest meltdown imagineable.

Edited by LiJu914, 18 November 2012 - 11:33.


#467 fastwriter

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:09

If I drove the RB in sector 1 it would have been slower than the HRT, confirming that the RB has hardly any downforce at all.

See the fault in your logic?



Oh, so you say in your logic, that Hamilton can walk over water, deny the laws of physics and can go quicker in a high downforce part of the track with a car that has less DF than the Red Bulls. Did I get your logic right with that?? :lol:

#468 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:16

Oh, so you say in your logic, that Hamilton can walk over water, deny the laws of physics and can go quicker in a high downforce part of the track with a car that has less DF than the Red Bulls. Did I get your logic right with that?? :lol:


What you wish to fail in understanding is that a driver can make up for those car shortfalls, for instance, lewis excels in late braking, making up some time lost by not having so much downforce as vettel has...

#469 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:27

What you wish to fail in understanding is that a driver can make up for those car shortfalls, for instance, lewis excels in late braking, making up some time lost by not having so much downforce as vettel has...


Late braking in S1? Where except for T1?

I guess Mr. Grosjean also showed his superior driving skills as he was a fast as both Red Bulls in S1.

Yes, the Red Bull is most likely (i think it definitely is) the fastest car at this circuit - but the numerous "proofs" people present us in here for their alleged vastly superior downforce are basically just statments like "the car looks like it´s on rails".... which isn´t even true as i can see SV having to correct oversteer at least three times on his pole lap and also one lock up (at the same place as LH had).


#470 study

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:28

Wierd, so it turns out after all at this circuit the Redbull isn't superior and is something like only 3rd fastest. Good to know.

#471 karlth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:30

Oh, so you say in your logic, that Hamilton can walk over water, deny the laws of physics and can go quicker in a high downforce part of the track with a car that has less DF than the Red Bulls. Did I get your logic right with that?? :lol:


You erroneously assume the car with the highest downforce must be the fastest in sector 1, discounting the driver and setup.

#472 whitevisor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:43

Late braking in S1? Where except for T1?

I guess Mr. Grosjean also showed his superior driving skills as he was a fast as both Red Bulls in S1.

Yes, the Red Bull is most likely (i think it definitely is) the fastest car at this circuit - but the numerous "proofs" people present us in here for their alleged vastly superior downforce are basically just statments like "the car looks like it´s on rails".... which isn´t even true as i can see SV having to correct oversteer at least three times on his pole lap and also one lock up (at the same place as LH had).


Dude... watch Vettel's onboard lap. He could use DRS through most of sector 3, including through all of turns 16,17,18. He was matche by Hamilton up to sector 2. Sector 3, the easiest part of the track according Mark and Lewis, is where Seb pulled out the gap. Oh, and according to this http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7184&p=3 , Vettel left more time on track than Lewis. If Vettel did his best lap, Lewis could not touch him in that Mclaren. And here you see that Lewis had to pull out more from Q2 to Q3: http://en.mclarenf-1...e...=882&s=7184 Vettel's car was 1 second faster in Q2.

Edited by whitevisor, 18 November 2012 - 11:43.


#473 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:47

Late braking in S1? Where except for T1?

I was talking about the whole lap, not S1...

#474 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:56

Dude... watch Vettel's onboard lap.

I did and already told my impressions.

He could use DRS through most of sector 3, including through all of turns 16,17,18.



No.


He was matche by Hamilton up to sector 2. Sector 3, the easiest part of the track according Mark and Lewis, is where Seb pulled out the gap.



That´s also the part, in which SV had two big oversteer-moments (exit of T18 / through T19) - so the assumption that the RB drove itself in that part of the track is quite questionable. btw. S2...according to all the theories isn´t really Red Bull-territory, yet Vettel was fastest there (whereas 6 other cars were as fast or faster as/than Webber there and even Button not being far off, despite having little opportunity to put in good sector times on medium-tyres) btw. Massa has basically the same S3 time as lewis, i guess that means the Ferrari was as good as the McLaren despite being over a second off LH´s pace...

And here you see that Lewis had to pull out more from Q2 to Q3: http://en.mclarenf-1...e...=882&s=7184 [b]Vettel's car was 1 second faster in Q2.

Or it just means that Lewis wasn´t performing to his max in Q2. I guess that is far more likely, when one guy gets 1 second faster within 15 minutes....



btw. What are you trying to convince me of? That the Red Bull is the best car on this track? I already said, that i see it that way. Doesn´t change the fact, that most of the "proofs", brought up here, are quite insubstantial.

Edited by LiJu914, 18 November 2012 - 12:09.


#475 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:57

I was talking about the whole lap, not S1...


Yeah but S1 is the most downforce-dependent part.

And as so many users talked about RB´s vastly superior downforce...

#476 karlth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:01

Yeah but S1 is the most downforce-dependent part.

And as so many users talked about RB´s vastly superior downforce...



I'll just repeat this:

You erroneously assume the car with the highest downforce must be the fastest in sector 1, discounting the driver and setup.

#477 currupipi

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:11

i get it , at the beginning of the year when vettel was nowhere, it was just because he was driving like shit, of course now its just him driving good

#478 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:20

I'll just repeat this:

You erroneously assume the car with the highest downforce must be the fastest in sector 1, discounting the driver and setup.


That´s not the point.

The point is, from what basis people can draw substantial conclusions, that RB has a huge DF-advantage, when:

- 1 driver is faster (HAM), 1 equally fast (GRO) and another only 1 tenth off (MAL) on the most downforce dependent part?
- despite all the talk, the RB doesn´t look like on rails in faster corners (end of S1 in Vettels pole lap, Turn 18, Turn 19)?


btw. What has setup to do with it?

Are you suggesting other cars put more wing on and therefore could match RB in S1? You know, that this would simply mean, that there wasn´t a huge downforce-deficit then. And as RB are still slowest on top-speed that even wouldn´t have turned out to be a disadvantage compared to RB on other parts of the track (in Qualifying at least).

Edited by LiJu914, 18 November 2012 - 12:24.


#479 DarthWillie

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:32

You erroneously assume the car with the highest downforce must be the fastest in sector 1, discounting the driver and setup.

True it might even be true the Red Bull is not very good in that part and Vettel is making time there instead of the car.

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#480 whitevisor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:38

I thought Button fans were tough..You Vettel fans are diamond baby! hehe :lol: I wish LH and SV are in the same car one day...


Anyway here is the evidence. People, compare the DRS usage and throttle usage:


Exhibit A



Exhibit B



Exhibit C

http://www.reactionf...428349083_0.png


Analysis:

Vettel breaks for Turn 1 at 75meters, Hamilton Breaks at 100m.

Vettel 86kph at turn one apex, Hamilton 75kph. Hamilton wider line but still slower through turn 1. Hamilton significant steering corrections.

Vetel DRS before T2 and holds til 3rd S

Hamilton DRS only at T2 and pulses it.

Vettel Releases the Throttle at T5.

Hamilton Does not. Left foot brakes instead. Keeps throttle above 50%

T6. Vettel releases again. Hamilton left foot brakes again. keeps throttle above 50%.

Vettel, 205kp through T7, Hamilton 191kph.

Vettel enters, T8 at ~127 kph, Hamilton enters at 132kph.

Vettel breaks at about 65m at T11. Hamilton brakes at 75m. Hamilton's car destabilizes. Not Vettel.
T11 speed. VET, 90 kph. HAM 65kph.

Similar speeds through T12. HAM's car destabilises though.

T13 to T14.. Slowest speed for VET is 88kph, slowes speed for HAM is 81kph. (could be different cornering styles so you can ignore this one).

VET DRS's exiting T14. HAM has to delay DRS deployment till on the straight.

Mclaren faster through T15.

T16 to T18. Vettel... Floors it! (100%) , HAM left foot brakes.

T17 Vettel DRS and holds. HAM does not. (cannot?).
T18 Vettel still holding DRS. HAM DRS and holds.

T19 and T20.... Similar for Both drivers.

Whoo. that took long...

So guys what do you think?

Edited by whitevisor, 18 November 2012 - 12:40.


#481 whitevisor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:42

I must say. I repsect Vettel because he knows the limit of his car. He knows when he can DRS or go full throttle. I think this separates him from Mark.

#482 BernieEc

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:42

all this is about who is a faster qualifier between Hamilton and Vettel. I am sorry we will never know until they are in the same car. IMHO though, I think Hamilton shades given the same equipment I believe he will out-qualify vettel. That is my opinion.

#483 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:45

So guys what do you think?


I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?

Edited by LiJu914, 18 November 2012 - 12:46.


#484 Zava

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:50

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?

:up: :lol:

#485 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:56

When will people learn that Vettel has a 2 seconds a lap faster car in every grand prix he ever competes in and only limps to pole, while Hamilton has been driving the equivalent of a HRT since 2008 and his magnificent driving on the edge has made the difference.

If only Hamilton had been driving a faster quali car this year we could make some comparison between them...... oh wait he has....

#486 whitevisor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:06

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?


You got me..  ;) I just got out the bed. :clap: I will get the pole lap. But expect similar.

#487 whitevisor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:15

I think: Why is somebody so desperate to push his agenda, that he compares the pole-lap of Vettel with a lap of Hamilton, which definitely isn´t his 1:35 from qualifying (it is something like 1min43sec)?



Here U go. No telemetry though.



#488 LiJu914

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:15

You got me.. ;) I just got out the bed. :clap: I will get the pole lap. But expect similar.



Go ahead. I for myself would be surprised to see all too many differences as the respective times wouldn´t be so close together otherwise...

Anyway...I don´t even know what´s the big fuss about it in here. After all it´s just a single qualifying session - nothing from which one should draw general conclusions (no matter in which particular way). Alonso got outqualified by Massa by 4 tenths. I don´t think, that tells us much....

#489 goingthedistance

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:20

I must say. I repsect Vettel because he knows the limit of his car. He knows when he can DRS or go full throttle. I think this separates him from Mark.


Don't forget performance was the other way around for much of the first half of the season. It's more a case of the RB8 recovering it's rear grip with the Coanda effect as well as the return of flexible front wings etc, which suit SV.

#490 Alarcon

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:21

Here U go. No telemetry though.


:up:



The car seems to run on rails and Lewis missed 2 or 3 appex and still managed the second best lap. Ah, sorry, that´s only goes on SV way... :p


#491 Alarcon

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:25

Don't forget performance was the other way around for much of the first half of the season. It's more a case of the RB8 recovering it's rear grip with the Coanda effect as well as the return of flexible front wings etc, which suit SV.



What you mean half of the season? On the first half season he achieved 3 pole positions. The other 3 pole position came on the second one.

Of course the car improved, but Seb performed all the season and not only on the last races.



#492 goingthedistance

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:29

For a long time Mark was ahead in the championship and he often out qualified SV. This was when the car was "looser".

He even out qualified SV in the last race (with more fuel onboard!) hardly time to be writing MW off as not as able to get the maximum out of car as the poster was I replied to.

Edited by goingthedistance, 18 November 2012 - 13:31.


#493 SpaMaster

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 13:37

Don't forget performance was the other way around for much of the first half of the season. It's more a case of the RB8 recovering it's rear grip with the Coanda effect as well as the return of flexible front wings etc, which suit SV.

More like Webber can't adapt.

#494 Jejking

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:28

Someone has footage on this one?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104348

#495 dau

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:07

Someone has footage on this one?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104348

Posted Image
Posted Image

#496 Peter Perfect

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:12

Someone has footage on this one?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104348

Given the speed Perez was closing at I assume he thought the Marussia was letting him through, and then was a bit surprised when it turned into the corner.