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United States Grand Prix Free Practice 3 and Qualifying thread


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#351 karlth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:44

Cracking lap from Vettel 36 ploes from 100 starts, 36!!!!

Polemeister :)


11 poles for Webber in the same car. Compare that to Hamilton's record of 8 poles against a single pole from Button.



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#352 plumtree

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:46

What did Davidson say about Lewis?

Vettel had a couple of moments, missing the apex. But Hamilton had a two obvious lock-ups. AD said those mistakes caused Ham to lose the P1. Basically said Hamilton made bigger mistakes. And what Hamilton said to Webber after the session was kind of a dig at RB drivers that others love to do.

#353 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:46

11 poles for Webber in the same car. Compare that to Hamilton's record of 8 poles against a single pole from Button.


Button has nevereverbeen consider as a good qualifier but Webber was thought to be quali specialist along oth Trulli before Vettel joined and dominated him.

#354 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:46

One can only hope that Alonso sacrificed qualy setup for race pace.

I doubt considering comments about how difficult passing will be. Ferrari have also identified that its qualification where they lack most so it would perhaps be counter intuitive to bias the set-up further away from that.

#355 Watkins74

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:47

11 poles for Webber in the same car. Compare that to Hamilton's record of 8 poles against a single pole from Button.

Your tirades against Vettel have passed the embarrassing point. Race after race he proves you wrong but you never fail to piss on the guy.



#356 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:48

Amazing job by Hamilton and Vettel but come on guys also give some respect to Schumacher. He smashed Rosberg and put that pretty crap Mercedes on P6, i think he did a fantastic job today, it makes me sad he hasn't gotten a good car in all his comeback years with Mercedes.

Very true. :up: :up: :up:

#357 encircled

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:48

Vettel had a couple of moments, missing the apex. But Hamilton had a two obvious lock-ups. AD said those mistakes caused Ham to lose the P1. Basically said Hamilton made bigger mistakes. And what Hamilton said to Webber after the session was kind of a dig at RB drivers that others love to do.

Thanks! :up:

#358 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:48

That's just some major ass Alonso-level bullshit.


As per usual, that was pathetic to watch.

Here's how the narrative goes if the roles are reversed, as in RB and Mc performance turned around.

Hamilton leads all sessions: they're looking good, but still RB's probably sandbagging.

Hamilton leads Q1/2: Looking good still, but of course RB has that magic switch that give them .5 in every Q3

Webber out in Q2 with a mech: Of course it's Webber, vague conspiracy theories

Ham beats Vettel by .1, Button .5 behind: SEE!?!!? There's the magic switch, only the awesomeness of Ham prevailed against a superior car

Replay shows Vettel locking and going wide twice: LOL look at that, that's what separates him from Hamilton

Sound familiar? :wave:

#359 study

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:49

Your tirades against Vettel have passed the embarrassing point. Race after race he proves you wrong but you never fail to piss on the guy.


I recall your and others tirades against Lewis, I find them embarrassing, don't give it if you don't like it in return.

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#360 stanga

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:50

Your tirades against Vettel have passed the embarrassing point. Race after race he proves you wrong but you never fail to piss on the guy.


If you weren't so open-mouthed at Vettel's awesomeness, the splash-back wouldn't be such a problem.

#361 Juan Kerr

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:50

If the car does a certain time, that obviously means it's capable of doing said time. Damon Hill knows that, I have to assume he's just playing along with the usual media-cheerleading.

Anyway, the track isn't as disappointing as I had thought it would be, though I'm still of the opinion that a good number of corners could've been cut. When did a 1:20 laptime become too short?


I can't believe such a simple thing is so hard to understand, Damon Hill is simply saying to put that McLaren so close to the Redbull takes driving that is far superior to the RedBull drivers since the RedBull is so obviously quicker. Its not rocket science!

Edited by Juan Kerr, 17 November 2012 - 19:51.


#362 f1fastestlap

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:51

Didn't lewis purple S1? Saw Davidsons tell he lost P1 because of that lock up in T1... :rolleyes:

#363 karlth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:51

Button has nevereverbeen consider as a good qualifier but Webber was thought to be quali specialist ....


He was obviously stronger than the rookies he qualified against.


#364 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:51

Vettel had a couple of moments, missing the apex. But Hamilton had a two obvious lock-ups. AD said those mistakes caused Ham to lose the P1. Basically said Hamilton made bigger mistakes. And what Hamilton said to Webber after the session was kind of a dig at RB drivers that others love to do.


What did he say to webber?

#365 Watkins74

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:51

I recall your and others tirades against Lewis, I find them embarrassing, don't give it if you don't like it in return.

I have given Hamilton credit plenty of times Skippy. ;)

Edited by Watkins74, 17 November 2012 - 19:51.


#366 karlth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:51

Looking forward to the BBC highlights this evening. Should be very interesting to see the post session analysis.

#367 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:52

As per usual, that was pathetic to watch.

Here's how the narrative goes if the roles are reversed, as in RB and Mc performance turned around.

Hamilton leads all sessions: they're looking good, but still RB's probably sandbagging.

Hamilton leads Q1/2: Looking good still, but of course RB has that magic switch that give them .5 in every Q3

Webber out in Q2 with a mech: Of course it's Webber, vague conspiracy theories

Ham beats Vettel by .1, Button .5 behind: SEE!?!!? There's the magic switch, only the awesomeness of Ham prevailed against a superior car

Replay shows Vettel locking and going wide twice: LOL look at that, that's what separates him from Hamilton

Sound familiar? :wave:


And you think you're immune to doing the opposite? I think most posters here need to watch this:


and have a sit down and seriously evaluate their views. It's healthy for everyone.

Edited by StefanArak, 17 November 2012 - 19:53.


#368 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:54

That's just some major ass Alonso-level bullshit.

To put it another way, the McLaren is the more difficult car to drive near the limit, so the driver has to push harder/fight the car more to get a good lap time out of it and only a select few drivers are capable of doing that. Lewis is one of those drivers.

#369 1Devil1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:54

I agree with you. I think Lewis is close to becoming the class of the field...he is improving with age and IMO will continue to improve. He and Seb were miles ahead of the opposition today, though Alonso didn't have much chance in that Ferrari which is absolutely horrible in qualy.



I certainly did! Whitmarsh looked thoroughly miserable after qualy, and he sounded underwhelmed by Lewis's great performance. But hey, Lewis has only 2 more races for McLaren, so why should we care! :cool:


Some Hamilton fan need a reality check again. Class of the field? He belongs to the top three in a row with Alonso and Vettel. His performance was great. Kudos! But we know he is a perfect qualifier like Seb. Lewis didn't show he is a class above him. The track was improving and his car was up to pace. But some fans want to believe Red Bull was 1sec quicker

#370 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:55

So the analysis is that Hamilton had a crap lap. It was all the magical timing fairy.

#371 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:56

11 poles for Webber in the same car. Compare that to Hamilton's record of 8 poles against a single pole from Button.

And then compare Webber's qualifying skill's to Button.

Look at their record vs their previous team-mates:

Button:
worse average grid position than Ralf Schumacher in 2000
worse than Fisichella in 2001
worse than Trulli in 2002
worse than Villeneuve but better than Sato in 2003
better than Sato in 2004
better than Sato in 2005
worse than Barrichello in 2006
better than Barrichello in 2007
better than Barrichello in 2008
worse in Barrichello in 2009
then Hamilton

Webber
better than both Davidson and Young in 2002
better than both Wilson and Pizzonia in 2003
better than Klien in 2004
better than both Heidfeld and Pizzonia in 2005
better than Rosberg in 2006
better than Coulthard in 2007
better than Coulthard in 2008
then Vettel

So the conclusion is that Webber has outqualified all his pre-Vettel F1 team-mates and most of them with significant margin, while the only team-mate against who Button had a superior qualifying record was Sato.
Is it fair to conclude that Webber is better qualifier then?

#372 karlth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:56

So the analysis is that Hamilton had a crap lap.


Yep. :lol:

#373 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:56

Some Hamilton fan need a reality check again. Class of the field? He belongs to the top three in a row with Alonso and Vettel. His performance was great. Kudos! But we know he is a perfect qualifier like Seb. Lewis didn't show he is a class above him. The track was improving and his car was up to pace. But some fans want to believe Red Bull was 1sec quicker


All very true. But did you really expect SV to be challenged for pole? Really?

#374 Shiroo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:57

So the analysis is that Hamilton had a crap lap. It was all the magical timing fairy.

Like usual. If it would be Button having Hamilton time, people would say how Sennasque that lap was, how completed driver Button is, and how miserable his team is, and only Button bringing it together.

And when Button's car doesnt work, it isnt Button's fault, IT ALWAYS CAR'S FAULT! ALWAYSS!!!!!!

#375 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:57

And you think you're immune to doing the opposite? I think most posters here need to watch this:


and have a sit down and seriously evaluate their views. It's healthy for everyone.


So you admit that's how the narrative would go in media and everywhere else in that situation? Thank you.

#376 Obi Offiah

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:57

Literally everyone in motorsport knows this, I don't see why some people get their knickers in a twist when people say someone is outperforming a car.

"But if a car performs to that level, it is necessarily capable of that time" they cry.

Obviously, it's called a figure of speech which is used as a hyperbole mechanism to emphasise what they feel is a particularly strong performance. What people are essentially saying in that situation is that a driver has outperformed the projected speed of the car based on the car's current handling and previous laptimes, and exceeded what was thought to be a reasonable laptime. They're not saying people are defying the laws of space and time...

:up:, but some posters may surprise you regarding the bolded :lol:

#377 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:57

So the analysis is that Hamilton had a crap lap. It was all the magical timing fairy.


My analysis would be that he pulled off a great lap, reminiscent of the way he used to, but Vettel pulled out a better one, simple as that.


#378 plumtree

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:58

What did he say to webber?

I don't remember clearly. Something like "You guys are so quick!". We all know the real meaning is 'Your car is massively quicker than mine!'...


Edit: @SkyF1Insider: Hamilton to webber 'you boys are so quick' webber to hamilton 'no, he's the quick one' (jestures towards sebastian)

Edited by plumtree, 17 November 2012 - 20:01.


#379 f1fastestlap

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:59

My analysis would be that he pulled off a great lap, reminiscent of the way he used to, but Vettel pulled out a better one, simple as that.


And they drive the same car, go figure...

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#380 1Devil1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:59

All very true. But did you really expect SV to be challenged for pole? Really?


No I didn't. Like I said, great performance by Lewis. But there is no reason to hype him as it's done by some users

#381 study

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:00

And then compare Webber's qualifying skill's to Button.

Look at their record vs their previous team-mates:

Button:
worse average grid position than Ralf Schumacher in 2000
worse than Fisichella in 2001
worse than Trulli in 2002
worse than Villeneuve but better than Sato in 2003
better than Sato in 2004
better than Sato in 2005
worse than Barrichello in 2006
better than Barrichello in 2007
better than Barrichello in 2008
worse in Barrichello in 2009
then Hamilton

Webber
better than both Davidson and Young in 2002
better than both Wilson and Pizzonia in 2003
better than Klien in 2004
better than both Heidfeld and Pizzonia in 2005
better than Rosberg in 2006
better than Coulthard in 2007
better than Coulthard in 2008
then Vettel

So the conclusion is that Webber has outqualified all his pre-Vettel F1 team-mates and most of them with significant margin, while the only team-mate against who Button had a superior qualifying record was Sato.
Is it fair to conclude that Webber is better qualifier then?



erm, have looked at who Webber is qualifying against!!! Are you being serious or sarcastic???

#382 stanga

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:00

My analysis would be that he pulled off a great lap, reminiscent of the way he used to, but Vettel pulled out a better one, simple as that.


"The way he used to"?

You mean like at Abu Dhabi or Spain 2012?

#383 f1fastestlap

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:01

No I didn't. Like I said, great performance by Lewis. But there is no reason to hype him as it's done by some users


And what about Hill and Herbert?

#384 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:01

So you admit that's how the narrative would go in media and everywhere else in that situation? Thank you.


What do you mean? I don't 'admit' to anything, I just think it's a healthier way to perceive your own views, that's all. (Maybe 70% certain :p).

#385 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:01

I don't remember clearly. Something like "You guys are so quick!". We all know the real meaning is 'Your car is massively quicker than mine!'...


Edit: @SkyF1Insider: Hamilton to webber 'you boys are so quick' webber to hamilton 'no, he's the quick one' (jestures towards sebastian)


Not news really, he always says that.

#386 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:02

And then compare Webber's qualifying skill's to Button.

Look at their record vs their previous team-mates:

Button:
worse average grid position than Ralf Schumacher in 2000
worse than Fisichella in 2001
worse than Trulli in 2002
worse than Villeneuve but better than Sato in 2003
better than Sato in 2004
better than Sato in 2005
worse than Barrichello in 2006
better than Barrichello in 2007
better than Barrichello in 2008
worse in Barrichello in 2009
then Hamilton

Webber
better than both Davidson and Young in 2002
better than both Wilson and Pizzonia in 2003
better than Klien in 2004
better than both Heidfeld and Pizzonia in 2005
better than Rosberg in 2006
better than Coulthard in 2007
better than Coulthard in 2008
then Vettel

So the conclusion is that Webber has outqualified all his pre-Vettel F1 team-mates and most of them with significant margin, while the only team-mate against who Button had a superior qualifying record was Sato.
Is it fair to conclude that Webber is better qualifier then?


I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the line up of R Schumacher, Fisichella, Trulli, Villeneuve and Barichello may just have been a little tougher than Yoong, Davidson, Wilson, Pizzonia, Klien and Coulthard (who only ever defeated Klien in quali of all his teammates), with the exceptions of Rosberg and possibly Heidfeld.

But I'd agree with your general point that on balance, MW is probably a better qualifier than JB.

#387 PapaD

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:03

Great laps from Hamilton and Vettel and brilliant to watch. :up:

Hopefully Vettel will smash his front wing at the first corner and give us an exiting race.

#388 Coral

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:03

And they drive the same car, go figure...


This! :up: It's a pity Jenson had his problem because I reckon we would have seen just how good that lap by Lewis was... :)

#389 1Devil1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:03

And what about Hill and Herbert?


Yeah, english television about an english driver. I can guess what they said. Do you want to know what the german broadcaster said about Vettel?

#390 P123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:04

No I didn't. Like I said, great performance by Lewis. But there is no reason to hype him as it's done by some users


I agree, we don't need hype, such as he is light years ahead of SV or some such. Same for the other way too. What we had was a great battle for pole between the two fastest guys in F1 over a single flying lap.

#391 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:05

What do you mean? I don't 'admit' to anything, I just think it's a healthier way to perceive your own views, that's all. (Maybe 70% certain :p).


Ah okay, I just thought you did by your lack of arguments against it and trying to switch attention to me for some reason.

#392 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:06

Yeah, english television about an english driver. I can guess what they said. Do you want to know what the german broadcaster said about Vettel?


Is he a WDC ex-formula 1 driver?

#393 f1fastestlap

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:06

Yeah, english television about an english driver. I can guess what they said. Do you want to know what the german broadcaster said about Vettel?

Oh now you don't like it. Ok...

#394 fatd

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:07

We should make "Sebastian Vettel Pole Weekend Discussion Thread" so everytime he gets a pole we can just discuss this "the car or the driver" in a separate thread, over and over again, instead of turning every qualifying thread into one every weekend.

:p :p

#395 1Devil1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:08

I agree, we don't need hype, such as he is light years ahead of SV or some such. Same for the other way too. What we had was a great battle for pole between the two fastest guys in F1 over a single flying lap.


:up:

#396 stanga

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:09

Yeah, english television about an english driver. I can guess what they said. Do you want to know what the german broadcaster said about Vettel?


Vettel ist der OberUberHauptSturmbahnqualifeldgeneral?

Edited by stanga, 17 November 2012 - 20:09.


#397 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:09

erm, have looked at who Webber is qualifying against!!! Are you being serious or sarcastic???

Well, Klien has a decent record, equal grid position to Coulthard in 2005 and outqualified Senna by more than a second in his first F1 qualifying after 5 years.
Coulthard is a multiple race-winner and pole-sitter and Rosberg has beaten all his team-mates bar Webber (even this year he is just in front of Schumi in average grid position despite losing 9-10 head-to-head in single events).
Heidfeld has beaten several strong team-mates as well.

If Button has beaten majority of his team-mates in qualifying, we could discuss. But he hasn't.

Edited by Anderis, 17 November 2012 - 20:11.


#398 Nonesuch

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:10

I don't see why some people get their knickers in a twist when people say someone is outperforming a car.

Simple, because it's feeding a narrative in which the driver is painted as the single most important part of what is in fact a team effort.

You might not find that objectionable, but I like to think that a former world champion like Hill could instead share some more insightful thoughts about how McLaren is taking the fight to Red Bull. Perhaps he has none.

#399 pRy

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:12

What's going to be fascinating to watch is cold tyres at the start of the race. I can see the first 5 or so laps being pretty chaotic.

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#400 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:12

Ah okay, I just thought you did by your lack of arguments against it and trying to switch attention to me for some reason.


You thought I did what? I don't even really understand how your sentence is relevant...

"So you admit that's how the narrative would go in media and everywhere else in that situation? Thank you."

What narrative? What situation?

Ah wait, I see, you're talking about that little dialogue you had with yourself in the first post :rotfl:.

Well, perhaps one or two dyed-in-the-wool Hamilton or McLaren fans here might say that, maybe even a couple of second-rate F1 blogs. As for 'the media and everywhere else', no, that's totally bogus. Firstly trying to condense the world's media into a single entity with one hive-minded viewpoint is absolutely preposterous, let alone 'everywhere else', and secondly, I don't believe it's the case anyway.
More likely is your cognitive baises gloss over points you agree with as you take them as 'netural', and take issue with points you disagree with and you take them as 'baised'.

What you said sounds moderately familiar from some of the posters on this forum, but then so does the opposite to what you said, people overplaying routine things from Vettel into him being the next coming of christ.

I often see people on these forums saying things like this though. Say Rosberg crashes, a few people criticise him, some defend him, etc. Inevitably you get someone saying 'if this were Schumacher who crashed, the forum would be in meltdown, there'd be a 20 page thread already, etc.. etc..', basically a mild form of the persecution complex.

Edited by StefanArak, 17 November 2012 - 20:17.