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United States Grand Prix Free Practice 3 and Qualifying thread


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#401 1Devil1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:13

Vettel ist der OberUberHauptSturmbahnqualifeldgeneral?


Are you british? Why do you always have NS in your mind when you think about german as language :rolleyes:

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#402 HappyPhantom

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:15

Simple, because it's feeding a narrative in which the driver is painted as the single most important part of what is in fact a team effort.

You might not find that objectionable, but I like to think that a former world champion like Hill could instead share some more insightful thoughts about how McLaren is taking the fight to Red Bull. Perhaps he has none.


:up:

#403 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:15

"The way he used to"?

You mean like at Abu Dhabi or Spain 2012?



I mean, the way he used to when he was considered the best qualifier on the grid by many, myself included, until Vettel took that crown as well, according to many, myself included.


#404 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:15

Simple, because it's feeding a narrative in which the driver is painted as the single most important part of what is in fact a team effort.

You might not find that objectionable, but I like to think that a former world champion like Hill could instead share some more insightful thoughts about how McLaren is taking the fight to Red Bull. Perhaps he has none.


It's just a turn of phrase. Of course it's a team effort, how could we ever forget that, what with the drivers continually mentioning the team? The point is, if both teammates have been (for example) 6 tenths off the pace in all practice sessions, Q1 and Q2, and then a driver in that team snatches pole by 0.03 whilst his teammate is still at the expected gap, then he can be said to have outperformed the car.
True enough, that would be impossible without the car there in the first place and the team to deliver and set it up, but equally, put another driver or even the same driver on a different day in the car, and he may not be capable of achieving that time with the same equipment. In this situation, the disparity is what leads to the focus on the driver, similarly if a team has a front-row lock out by 1 second, the focus is then on the team and the car, not the two drivers, as this is the opposite situation. But then that's reasonable really and people don't tend to complain about it, so it seems strange to take issue with the converse.

#405 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:17

Coulthard (who only ever defeated Klien in quali of all his teammates),

You forgot about Liuzzi.

But well, Coulthard had had only world champions (former or later) as his team-mates before he joined Red Bull. That's pretty interesting statistic even leaving Button-Webber comparison alone.

#406 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:17

Button has nevereverbeen consider as a good qualifier but Webber was thought to be quali specialist along oth Trulli before Vettel joined and dominated him.

Finally some logic re: Vettel. Some absolute mongs in this forum these days and blind ones at that. How many poles has Seb had now when Webber is not on the front row with him? Even Webber himself talking to Lewis, sweating profusely, said "It's him" looking at Seb.

#407 PinkZepStones

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:19

I mean, the way he used to when he was considered the best qualifier on the grid by many, myself included, until Vettel took that crown as well, according to many, myself included.



Your entitled to think so, but many? Glad you didnt say most, as the last few polls at least ive seen on ithe subject has Hamilton trouncing Vettel in popular opinion on whos the best qualifier.


Vettel was about .7 of a second on average faster then anyone all sessions until Q3, and Hamilton got .1 to him, Driver of the day as far as in concerned.

#408 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:21

You thought I did what? I don't even really understand how your sentence is relevant...

"So you admit that's how the narrative would go in media and everywhere else in that situation? Thank you."

What narrative? What situation?

Ah wait, I see, you're talking about that little dialogue you had with yourself in the first post :rotfl:.


I didn't think it was that hard to understand, perhaps I was wrong.

Well, perhaps one of two dyed-in-the-wool Hamilton fans here might say that, maybe even a couple of second-rate F1 blogs. As for 'the media and everywhere else', no, that's totally bogus. Firstly trying to condense the world's media into a single entity with one hive-minded viewpoint is absolutely preposterous, let alone 'everywhere else', and secondly, I don't believe it's the case anyway.
More likely is your cognitive baises gloss over points you agree with as you take them as 'netural', and take issue with points you disagree with and you take them as 'baised'.


Of course I was generalizing, but I disagree that it would only limit to something like that. Clearly the famous narrative has been set and it has only strengthened this year with Hamilton and Alonso just fueling the fire (this didn't really come as a surprise to me). I don't understand why you are bringing my bias into it all the time, it's not like I don't understand the RB has been a great, great car for the last 3 years.

What you said sounds moderately familiar from some of the posters on this forum, but then so does the opposite to what you said, people overplaying routine things from Vettel into him being the next coming of christ.


Unless saying Vettel is the best driver in F1 atm equals that, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have seen that occurrence happen towards Hamilton and Alonso countless times, though.


#409 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:21

Finally some logic re: Vettel. Some absolute mongs in this forum these days and blind ones at that. How many poles has Seb had now when Webber is not on the front row with him? Even Webber himself talking to Lewis, sweating profusely, said "It's him" looking at Seb.



Agree :up: , but you just know whats coming next,

"Webber has to say that, so that it looks better for him" :lol:




#410 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:25

Your entitled to think so, but many? Glad you didnt say most, as the last few polls at least ive seen on ithe subject has Hamilton trouncing Vettel in popular opinion on whos the best qualifier.


Vettel was about .7 of a second on average faster then anyone all sessions until Q3, and Hamilton got .1 to him, Driver of the day as far as in concerned.



Really ? Got a link for those polls ?


#411 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:27

Unless saying Vettel is the best driver in F1 atm equals that, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have seen that occurrence happen towards Hamilton and Alonso countless times, though.


Yeah, enough said then :). That's why I'm talking about cognitive biases :rolleyes:.

Edited by StefanArak, 17 November 2012 - 20:28.


#412 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:27

Your entitled to think so, but many? Glad you didnt say most, as the last few polls at least ive seen on ithe subject has Hamilton trouncing Vettel in popular opinion on whos the best qualifier.


Yeah, probably about the same ratio as the poll for the favourite driver or poll on which one everyone wants to see win the title, for example. :rolleyes:

Vettel was about .7 of a second on average faster then anyone all sessions until Q3, and Hamilton got .1 to him, Driver of the day as far as in concerned.


Clearly Hamilton underperformed before Q3 then. :rotfl:

#413 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:28

Yeah, enough said then :). That's why I'm talking about biases :rolleyes:.


Perhaps you can give me examples. :)

There's about 10 on Hamilton in this thread alone.

Edited by choyothe, 17 November 2012 - 20:31.


#414 PinkZepStones

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:34

Theres a search function and other forums i dont know if im allowed to name. I dont care enough to search them for you, its literally right there at the top though.

How does it feel that on the verge of his third title most rate Hamilton and Alonso either ahead or the same level by the way, the lack of recognition must cut real deep for a three time champion elect.

#415 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:34

Perhaps you can give me examples. :)


I don't feel the need to go and get quotes from the posts, but one relatively recent example would be the level of praise Vettel received for his comeback drive in Abu Dhabi. Before you jump down my throat for that, of course the level of criticism from people saying it was 'pure luck', 'easy' etc. is also totally ridiculous. However, some posters, and I'm sure media sources (probably in Germany, not that I'm saying this isn't to be expected of Spanish newspapers re: Alonso and British re:Hamilton), elevated the feat to levels that almost certainly exceed the objective value, with complete disregard for circumstance.

This is merely an example, let's not get into a discussion of Abu Dhabi, but I simply mean to say that there are people, and journalists, who honestly believe that Vettel is better than he is. Their writings reflect that. There are people who believe the opposite, and their writings reflect that. The difficulty is trying to consolidate all that with what you personally believe is a reasonable view, given your particular experience watching as a fan.

I still don't believe that the majority of news sources go through that narrative that you said about Vettel turning on the 'magic switch'. Many purport the RBR car to be dominantly fast, which due to your disagreement (if this is the case) may lead you to be frustrated with their indirect downplaying of Vettel's drive. All I'm trying to say is that when you post that it isn't the car or 'magic-switch' or whatever you want to say, equally people view your post from an opposite position and see you as purporting an alternative 'narrative', but from their point of view an equally incorrect one.

#416 StefanArak

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:37

Perhaps you can give me examples. :)

There's about 10 on Hamilton in this thread alone.


With regard to the edit, of course in this thread there are several about Hamilton as he was the one who seemingly exceeded his expected position. When I said that the same happens about vettel I didn't mean in this very thread necessarily.

#417 stanga

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:40

Are you british? Why do you always have NS in your mind when you think about german as language :rolleyes:


Lighten up, Francis.

I work with Germans on a daily basis. When I first started I was so very politically correct with them that I had to double take when one of them made a joke about "Germans liking a nice uniform". Since then I've learned not to be so sensitive about things.

Besides, last time I checked, stupidly long military ranks in the German army predate the moustachioed one.





#418 korzeniow

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:43

American grid girls anyone?

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#419 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:48

Theres a search function and other forums i dont know if im allowed to name. I dont care enough to search them for you, its literally right there at the top though.

How does it feel that on the verge of his third title most rate Hamilton and Alonso either ahead or the same level by the way, the lack of recognition must cut real deep for a three time champion elect.



There's no law on here against mentioning other forums, so feel free, and i'll do the searching.


I think what probably cuts deeper than most, and probably for most, is that he is indeed on the verge of his 3rd championship, i imagine those bleeding the most profusely will be supporters of those whom Vettel is on the verge of eclipsing.

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#420 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:49

Fantastic performance by Hamilton, unfortunately I fear being P2 could be a major disadvantage tomorrow. Vettel will probably take the title here, hopefully next year we'll have another fight as good as this but without controversy again.

#421 race addicted

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:51

(....) and Coulthard (who only ever defeated Klien in quali of all his teammates)


Wrong. DC was on average, five hundredths quicker than Hill in qualifying in '95. The average gap is what's interesting, as that tells you more than the head-to-head.

#422 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:52

I think what probably cuts deeper than most, and probably for most, is that he is indeed on the verge of his 3rd championship, i imagine those bleeding the most profusely will be supporters of those whom Vettel is on the verge of eclipsing.

I don't see why. Vettel's done an amazing job over three years, hell I was rooting for him when he took his 1st title from Alonso that night. What cuts I think in this case, and last year, is the taint of legality about the car. It's part and parcel in a way in F1, but aside from Spygate I can't remember two years like this where there's a real odor around the Championship winning car. :well:


#423 Coral

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:52

I mean, the way he used to when he was considered the best qualifier on the grid by many, myself included, until Vettel took that crown as well, according to many, myself included.


Was Lewis ever regarded as the best qualifier on the grid? :confused: Because I don't think he was...in fact I always regarded qualifying as being a weakness of Lewis's. Certainly in GP2 his qualifying was often quite poor. I think Lewis's qualifying ability has improved...this year he has been better than ever. But then Lewis's driving has been excellent this year as a whole.

#424 anti

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:52

Qualification: :: Sector times :: Max speeds :: Lap Chart


#425 choyothe

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:56

Was Lewis ever regarded as the best qualifier on the grid? :confused: Because I don't think he was...in fact I always regarded qualifying as being a weakness of Lewis's. Certainly in GP2 his qualifying was often quite poor. I think Lewis's qualifying ability has improved...this year he has been better than ever. But then Lewis's driving has been excellent this year as a whole.


Seriously?

#426 PinkZepStones

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:58

There's no law on here against mentioning other forums, so feel free, and i'll do the searching.


I think what probably cuts deeper than most, and probably for most, is that he is indeed on the verge of his 3rd championship, i imagine those bleeding the most profusely will be supporters of those whom Vettel is on the verge of eclipsing.


Well one you type in F1 forum for its really quiet now but it should be first result and the others planet f1 forum.

As for the second part, i agree with you totally, especially Hamilton fans id imagine but from a personal point of view, im content with knowing that what i believe (Hamilton is the best driver overrall) that i DO truly believe it, and silly it may seem he could retire with one title id still believe it if his future performances are similiar to 2007-2012.

But as with any sport that exists in droves, jealousy and green eyed envy, and theres a lot of it about.

Alonso fans not lilking that both Hammy and Vettel have better cars for last two years, Hamilton fans that both Alonso and Vettel have more titles, Vettel fans that they dont feel like their driver is accepted despite what he has statistically achieved, but this is sport no?

Again personally i just dont believe Vettel is the second coming of christ, and it increasingly grinds my gears that i am told to believe it, it is the F1 equivalent of anti-smoking nutjobs, we are both told to believe what we want but as long as its believing what we believe, i just do not find anything to suggest he is J. H Christ the 2nd, others are entitled to believe it but you cant make claims like that and expect no retribution, thats where problems occur.

Its hard to contend with Vettels records in terms of saying you dont think hes all that and a bag of potato chips, but hes had the rub of the green for far too long and it has turned rabid.

#427 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:01

I don't see why. Vettel's done an amazing job over three years, hell I was rooting for him when he took his 1st title from Alonso that night. What cuts I think in this case, and last year, is the taint of legality about the car. It's part and parcel in a way in F1, but aside from Spygate I can't remember two years like this where there's a real odor around the Championship winning car. :well:



I suppose it depends on ones sense of smell, for me Newey Red Bull and Vettel have just done a better job than anyone else, I'm sure if he were working for Ferrari or McLaren we'd have the same things being said about their cars, and the same things being denied by fans of those teams.


#428 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:03

I suppose it depends on ones sense of smell, for me Newey Red Bull and Vettel have just done a better job than anyone else, I'm sure if he were working for Ferrari or McLaren we'd have the same things being said about their cars, and the same things being denied by fans of those teams.

The flexi-wing thing last year was such a completely clear breach of the rules. This year we've had more of that, the floor holes, plus the hand operated ride height adjuster which, frankly, should have been expulsion from the Championship there and then. Red Bull have done a great job, Newey is a complete genius, but there's just a few too many elements of pushing too far for my liking. But they seem immune with the FIA.


#429 pUs

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:08

Was Lewis ever regarded as the best qualifier on the grid? :confused: Because I don't think he was...in fact I always regarded qualifying as being a weakness of Lewis's. Certainly in GP2 his qualifying was often quite poor. I think Lewis's qualifying ability has improved...this year he has been better than ever. But then Lewis's driving has been excellent this year as a whole.


I've never been a fan of Hamilton in any way at all, but seriously, he is great in qualifying. Absolutely stunning at times.

#430 sailor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:10

Yeah, probably about the same ratio as the poll for the favourite driver or poll on which one everyone wants to see win the title, for example. :rolleyes:



Clearly Hamilton underperformed before Q3 then. :rotfl:


Honestly - he did screw up twice on the final run.
Not sure if Macca was the faster car but Lewis could have gotten pole today if Seb put as much as half a foot wrong!

#431 Coral

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:11

I've never been a fan of Hamilton in any way at all, but seriously, he is great in qualifying. Absolutely stunning at times.


Yes, he is great now, but that's what I'm saying...Lewis was not always as good in qualifying. At least that's what I remember!

#432 jrg19

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:12

Is Schumacher under investigation too?

#433 OSX

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:14

American grid girls anyone?

d12usa1837.jpg

The outfits work better from this angle...

Posted Image


#434 SamH123

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:14

Article on main Autosport website saying Ferrari used scrubbed tires for Q3 but denies it was a mistake

So what was the point? I don't get it.

#435 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:27

Your entitled to think so, but many? Glad you didnt say most, as the last few polls at least ive seen on ithe subject has Hamilton trouncing Vettel in popular opinion on whos the best qualifier.


Vettel was about .7 of a second on average faster then anyone all sessions until Q3, and Hamilton got .1 to him, Driver of the day as far as in concerned.



I found the one on PF1, out of a total of 205 votes, Vettel polled 83, and Lewis 88, ahead, but not what i'd really term a trouncing, Appreciate the link though.

#436 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:31

I found the one on PF1, out of a total of 205 votes, Vettel polled 83, and Lewis 88, ahead, but not what i'd really term a trouncing, Appreciate the link though.

I think they're pretty much neck and neck, would love to see them in the same car. As in most polls Hamilton gains and Vettel loses a bit because the Red Bull has been the best car for three years bar the first bit of this year - so it probably depends on the timing of the poll. I mean for the last few weeks if Vettel hasn't been on pole everyone assumes he must have screwed up, because there's no reason for that car not to be on pole.


#437 northanmonkee

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:32

Is Schumacher under investigation too?

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Michael Schumacher and @alo_oficial have been in to the see the stewards, presumably over Schumacher's block in Q2.
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#438 Paco

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:45

F1 - STOP WITH THE MADNESS already and making this a gentlemens sport. God I miss Villeneuve, Rock m sock Schumi, Juan Pablo, Irvine, Alesi etc. All this ---- but he impeded me.. please help me.. please.. pretty please.. get some compensation for something some else did.. i swear it was not my fault.. he got in my REALLY REALLY Slow way.



#439 karlth

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:47

Finally some logic re: Vettel. Some absolute mongs in this forum these days and blind ones at that.


That would be me. The thing is that I'm about as impressed with Vettel's pole run as I was with Hakkinen and Coulthard outqualifying everyone in the the late 90s and Mansell and Petrese before that, i.e. not at all. It is all relative and Vettel, having not raced in the same car as any WDC class driver, lacks a yardstick to be compared to. Without it we can only speculate on his optimal pace.

Perhaps Vettel is the quickest man on 4 wheels because he is beating Webber comfortably or perhaps he is only flattered by the fastest car because he was outqualified by Liuzzi in his first year in F1.



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#440 BernieEc

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:48

American grid girls anyone?

Posted Image


I would take any of them except for the 5th from the left. She looks a whole lot like coulthard!!!!

#441 OSX

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:50

Jonathan Noble (Autosport):

"Mark Webber given reprimand over weighbridge incident."

http://twitter.com/N...918345200021504


#442 swerved

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 21:59

I think they're pretty much neck and neck, would love to see them in the same car. As in most polls Hamilton gains and Vettel loses a bit because the Red Bull has been the best car for three years bar the first bit of this year - so it probably depends on the timing of the poll. I mean for the last few weeks if Vettel hasn't been on pole everyone assumes he must have screwed up, because there's no reason for that car not to be on pole.



Agree about the validity of the polls, maybe its time for one on who qualifies best, but as you say they're skewed by different perceptions of the cars, for me though Vettel just has that something extra, Lewis had it back in the day, whether he's lost it, his car isn't as good, or Vettel has just got better is pretty subjective, if i picked one though, i'd say Vettel has just got better.

#443 OSX

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 22:58

American grid girls anyone?

d12usa1837.jpg

I would take any of them except for the 5th from the left. She looks a whole lot like coulthard!!!!

The girls are fine, I agree. The problem really is the outfits that at least from a European point of view look incredibly tasteless and just plain slutty for F1. That said the outfit looks pretty eyes catching on that redhead that supposedly looks like DC...

Posted Image



#444 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:07

Agree about the validity of the polls, maybe its time for one on who qualifies best, but as you say they're skewed by different perceptions of the cars, for me though Vettel just has that something extra, Lewis had it back in the day, whether he's lost it, his car isn't as good, or Vettel has just got better is pretty subjective, if i picked one though, i'd say Vettel has just got better.

I'm not sure how you're getting there ; Vettel has had a completely dominant qualifying car for two and half years. To me there's no question Lewis's lap today > Vettel's ; but that's because one is fighting to wring everything out of the car and the other has a car that pretty much does what he tells it to. Both great laps, just one easier to do than the other. I'd say they're probably as close to on a par as you can get.


#445 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:08

F1 - STOP WITH THE MADNESS already and making this a gentlemens sport. God I miss Villeneuve, Rock m sock Schumi, Juan Pablo, Irvine, Alesi etc. All this ---- but he impeded me.. please help me.. please.. pretty please.. get some compensation for something some else did.. i swear it was not my fault.. he got in my REALLY REALLY Slow way.

I dunno, Schumi's baulk of Alonso was pretty blatant and seemingly completely unnecessary.


#446 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:10

I would take any of them except for the 5th from the left. She looks a whole lot like coulthard!!!!

The girls are fine, I agree. The problem really is the outfits that at least from a European point of view look incredibly tasteless and just plain slutty for F1. That said the outfit looks pretty eyes catching on that redhead that supposedly looks like DC...

Posted Image



Uhm, this is pretty conservative for F1 grid girls.

#447 1Devil1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:22

I dunno, Schumi's baulk of Alonso was pretty blatant and seemingly completely unnecessary.


Both were on an inlap. Michael doesn't need to place his car in the gravel because of the mighty Alonso is coming from behind. He did his routine to heat his tires

#448 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:36

Both were on an inlap. Michael doesn't need to place his car in the gravel because of the mighty Alonso is coming from behind. He did his routine to heat his tires

Just read that, my mistake. I thought Alonso was on a flyer and Schumi not, I stand corrected.


#449 olliek88

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:38

Both were on an inlap. Michael doesn't need to place his car in the gravel because of the mighty Alonso is coming from behind. He did his routine to heat his tires


Alonso's wasn't on an inlap.

#450 Ricardo F1

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 23:39

Alonso's wasn't on an inlap.

No they were both on outlaps :

Both drivers advised that they were on their first (preparation) lap of a multi-lap stint and were able to continue their respective laps," said a stewards' statement.

Not even sure why they were called to the stewards at all with that information.