530 replies to this topic

[kpchelsea]

Ferrari are musing over whether to replace Massa's damaged gearbox, do they have to prove evidence of damage as this could be a tactical decision to put Alonso further up the grid and on the cleaner side of the grid?

[kamikaze1]

"There is nothing in F1's rules that prevents a team from changing a car's gearbox for sporting reasons."

[Anonymous]

Disgusting, but I wouldn't be surprised. It's Ferrari after all. I feel sorry for Massa, he is just another clown there.

Edited by Anonymous, 18 November 2012 - 16:02.

[Diablobb81]

"There is nothing in F1's rules that prevents a team from changing a car's gearbox for sporting reasons."

Problem is they are changing Massa's gearbox for Alonso's benefit. 151 and all that.

[Schumacher7]

Not a Ferrari fan by any means but I will completely respect their decision to do so if they go through with it, makes no sense not to do it really.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Wouldn't say it's disgusting. Merely trying to improve Alonso's chances by taking advantage of the rules. If the rules allow them to make a gearbox change just because they can (a bit like if a driver suffers a penalty which would put them in P24 they may as well change the gearbox anyway as it's a new gearbox and they can't drop any further back) then really there's nothing to be said. It's 1 interpretation of the rules, but if the rules allow them to do it, and they think it'd benefit them (which it obviously would) then they're going to do it.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 18 November 2012 - 16:04.

[barrykm]

Well, wasn't RBR's decision to start from the pitlane at Abu Dhabi perhaps also motivated by an idea to maximise their race performance..?!

[showtime]

Disgusting, but I wouldn't be surprised. It's Ferrari after all. I feel sorry for Massa, he is just another clown there.

Yes, only Ferrari uses rule's loopholes for their own benefit, oh wait...

[Alarcon]

It´s another way to win positions. Some drivers deserves those position on the track, some others on the office.

Alonso image would be even much damaged.

Imagine what they would say if they do the same with Mark Webber on Korea pole position... now I understand Alonso being so confident yesterday!

[fabr68]

Unlike other teams, Ferrari is not allowed to replace damaged components that other teams do. If Ferrari does it, it is unsporting.

Ferrari must race with defective components and DNF at all costs. Ferrari must lose at all costs, otherwise it is discusting.

[Anderis]

Wonder if they have read my suggestion in the other thread?

Do you think Ferrari could change the gearbox or something in Massa's car in order to get a penalty and move Alonso one spot higher on the grid to a clean side of the track?

I think I came with this pretty much before any of those rumours?

[Alarcon]

Well, wasn't RBR's decision to start from the pitlane at Abu Dhabi perhaps also motivated by an idea to maximise their race performance..?!

But they did not changed Webber gearbox to give Seb the 1st position at Korea...

You can do it of course legally, but the image of the WDC is... "Felipe is faster than you but we gift you the clean side".

Not confirmed yet but...

[jimjimjeroo]

I think they both stand to benefit IMO as both are currently on the dirty side of the grid! A 5 place drop is worth it to be on the right side of the grid

[fabr68]

But they did not changed Webber gearbox to give Seb the 1st position at Korea...

You can do it of course legally, but the image of the WDC is... "Felipe is faster than you but we gift you the clean side".

Not confirmed yet but...

But... just in case it is good to have the BS bashing theories and excuses ready for attack.

[boldhakka]

Not sure how much Bernie would like this happening in the first US GP in a long time. But it depends on how the press and Ferrari play it. I'm finding it easy to imagine casual fans who will easily buy that Massa had a real gearbox problem, but also easy to imagine some crying "fixed!" (they would be technically right in a sporting sense).

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Alonso's reputation/image won't be damaged if they do this, nor will it be damaged if they do this and he goes on to win the title.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 18 November 2012 - 16:10.

[MortenF1]

...the possibility of there actually being a problem with the gearbox does excist.

[Longtimefan]

If they do this, RBR will change Webbers gearbox too, putting Alonso back onto the dirty side.

[prty]

Problem is they are changing Massa's gearbox for Alonso's benefit. 151 and all that.

Vergne letting himself passed in Abu Dhabi is worse as it wasn't even the same team, and no 151 applied there, so no reason to apply here either. But of course it will depend on how much the press/people cry.

Edited by prty, 18 November 2012 - 16:10.

[Gorma]

I feel sorry for the spectators. We finally get another race in the USA and the first chance they get Ferrari pulls off a stunt like this.

[Ravenak]

But they did not changed Webber gearbox to give Seb the 1st position at Korea...

You can do it of course legally, but the image of the WDC is... "Felipe is faster than you but we gift you the clean side".

Not confirmed yet but...

Mark, we need to maintain positions.

Ring a bell?

[fabr68]

If they do this, RBR will change Webbers gearbox too, putting Alonso back onto the dirty side.

Great. So the outcome is:

- Massa gets to replace his dying gearbox for a new one
- Alonso gets moved from 8th to 6th in the grid
- Webber gets moved behind Alonso

I hope Red Bull follows your advise.

[Crazy Canuck]

It's a brilliant strategy, IMHO. Very clever. It will benefit both Massa and Alonso as it will move them on to the clean side, which I think will probably equalize Massa's 5 place grid drop and will buy Alonso a couple of spots on the run up the hill. I'd do it even if his box wasn't broken (which it probably isn't). The only mistake Ferrari have made is to announce it, they should have stayed silent till the last moment.

CC

Edited by Crazy Canuck, 18 November 2012 - 16:13.

[ASFA2011]

But they did not changed Webber gearbox to give Seb the 1st position at Korea...

You can do it of course legally, but the image of the WDC is... "Felipe is faster than you but we gift you the clean side".

Not confirmed yet but...

You of all people shouldn't be talking crap , didn't Vettel started from the pit lane last race to take advantage of the rule of changing the car set up and to be able to change the gear ratios ? Let me tell you that if he would have started from the back of the grid he wouldn't have finished anywhere near to the podium with those gear ratios he had , so house of glass I should say , careful with rocks

[Afterburner]

If they do this, RBR will change Webbers gearbox too, putting Alonso back onto the dirty side.

Gearbox-gate brewing?

[ensign14]

So, you're an up-and-coming driver, looking to make your way in the Grand Prix world. You are extremely talented and have offers from Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari.

Give me one sporting reason why you would become Alonso's team-mate.

[Ravenak]

So, you're an up-and-coming driver, looking to make your way in the Grand Prix world. You are extremely talented and have offers from Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari.

Give me one sporting reason why you would become Alonso's team-mate.

Learning from the greatest to eventually have a shot at replacing him in the best environment.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Worth noting that the final grid has to be published 1 hour before the start of the formation lap, so by 6pm UK time we'll know for certain if anyone has made any changes (assuming they're not publically announced before that time).

[fabr68]

So, you're an up-and-coming driver, looking to make your way in the Grand Prix world. You are extremely talented and have offers from Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari.

Give me one sporting reason why you would become Alonso's team-mate.

Because he is going to kick your arse

[Mandzipop]

I think Scarbs is right. Using general parc ferme rules, if they are replacing something that doesn't need replacing, don't they have to start from the pitlane as it wouldn't fall under the gearbox rules.

[swerved]

Not sure how much Bernie would like this happening in the first US GP in a long time. But it depends on how the press and Ferrari play it. I'm finding it easy to imagine casual fans who will easily buy that Massa had a real gearbox problem, but also easy to imagine some crying "fixed!" (they would be technically right in a sporting sense).

That could be more of an issue than some might realise, it would be easily understandable if the Americans started thinking F1 was being manipulated.

[showtime]

I think Scarbs is right. Using general parc ferme rules, if they are replacing something that doesn't need replacing, don't they have to start from the pitlane as it wouldn't fall under the gearbox rules.

When did Ferrari say the gearbox doesn't need replacing?

Edited by showtime, 18 November 2012 - 16:23.

[superdelphinus]

Unless you are also from Stevenage

[Mr.Wayne]

Well, wasn't RBR's decision to start from the pitlane at Abu Dhabi perhaps also motivated by an idea to maximise their race performance..?!

Exactly the same situation! In particular because the decision of starting on the pitlane actually affected the starting position of Webber during that race, and improved Vettel's.... No, wait

[Gilles4Ever]

@OskariSaari: Talked to C. Whiting. Ferrari can change MAS gearbox if they want. Don't have to prove there's anything wrong. No info if they'll do it.

[swerved]

Worth noting that the final grid has to be published 1 hour before the start of the formation lap, so by 6pm UK time we'll know for certain if anyone has made any changes (assuming they're not publically announced before that time).

Good point, and an easily forgotten one, time is ticking.

[Cesc]

So, you're an up-and-coming driver, looking to make your way in the Grand Prix world. You are extremely talented and have offers from Red Bull, McLaren, Lotus and Ferrari.

Give me one sporting reason why you would become Alonso's team-mate.

Because there no one else in the grid from whom I could learn so much and because, If I could beat him from time to time, I can turn things around. Nobody put ballast in Massa's car in the first 10 races of the year and by then, he was +100 points behind. Why should he now claim equal treatment if Alonso's chances are so slim but still alive?

[Spillage]

Seems a completely boneheaded move to me. Why would they compromise themselves in this way? If necessary, Massa can just let Alonso through, as early as the first lap if necessary. Then he can play rear guard for the first few laps.

[showtime]

Seems a completely boneheaded move to me. Why would they compromise themselves in this way? If necessary, Massa can just let Alonso through, as early as the first lap if necessary. Then he can play rear guard for the first few laps.

Clean side vs dirty side.

[Gilles4Ever]

Seems a completely boneheaded move to me. Why would they compromise themselves in this way? If necessary, Massa can just let Alonso through, as early as the first lap if necessary. Then he can play rear guard for the first few laps.

It's about getting Alonso and Massa on the clean side of the track on the grid

[Toffeli]

Seems a completely boneheaded move to me. Why would they compromise themselves in this way? If necessary, Massa can just let Alonso through, as early as the first lap if necessary. Then he can play rear guard for the first few laps.

It's not so much about Alonso gaining one place, but getting to the better side. Drivers have reported that the other side is significantly worse.

[jstrains]

Some have flexi parts of the cars, some change gearboxes. Nothing unusual

[RealRacing]

As far as I can interpret the spirit of the rule, the penalties for changing gear boxes and engines are in place to punish teams for "poor" reliability, all in an effort to reduce costs. Although I disagree with these rules, it is what it is and if there isn't anything preventing a team from "creating" a gear box defect to attain an advantage, then it can be done.

However, it does not sit well with me in the same way that TOs don't and in a similar way a football player tries to create a penalty by diving in the area. As much as FA has been praised this year for supposedly overdriving a slower car, it is these kinds of things that thrust a shadow in his a the team's sporting behavior.

This considered, and knowing about past behavior, FA's "feeling" that he will outscore SV is scary...

[engel]

I think Scarbs is right. Using general parc ferme rules, if they are replacing something that doesn't need replacing, don't they have to start from the pitlane as it wouldn't fall under the gearbox rules.

That, in my opinion, is wrong. The regulations stipulate a penalty for changing your gearbox. There is no mention that you need to prove fault with the unit. In fact in Bahrain Merc decided to change Schumi's gearbox with no obvious problem and he just went to 22nd from 17th, not to the pitlane

[HPT]

That could be more of an issue than some might realise, it would be easily understandable if the Americans started thinking F1 was being manipulated.

Well...I'm not sure Americans would have such an issue with manipulation. They do love wrestling and Jerry Springer after all

[jeze]

Seems a completely boneheaded move to me. Why would they compromise themselves in this way? If necessary, Massa can just let Alonso through, as early as the first lap if necessary. Then he can play rear guard for the first few laps.

Huge difference between clean and dirty side, Alonso would probably be sixth immediately and with his normally awesome starts he might even take fifth and then get a car on the back straight as well. Suddenly they'd look like geniuses. Of course nothing's that bad with Massa's gearbox, come on Massa's done well all weekend but thing is, Ferrari need to take every loophole to help Alonso in the final two rounds. Massa has done great in the second half of this season and will have equal opportunities from Melbourne next year again, provided he continues to be quicker than Alonso at some tracks.

[Spillage]

It's about getting Alonso and Massa on the clean side of the track on the grid

Is it going to make that much of a difference? People always talk about clean and dirty side of the grid, and I cannot remember a single instance int he past few seasons where it has made any kind of significant difference. Strongly suspect this afternoon'll be the same.

[showtime]

As far as I can interpret the spirit of the rule, the penalties for changing gear boxes and engines are in place to punish teams for "poor" reliability, all in an effort to reduce costs. Although I disagree with these rules, it is what it is and if there isn't anything preventing a team from "creating" a gear box defect to attain an advantage, then it can be done.

However, it does not sit well with me in the same way that TOs don't and in a similar way a football player tries to create a penalty by diving in the area. As much as FA has been praised this year for supposedly overdriving a slower car, it is these kinds of things that thrust a shadow in his a the team's sporting behavior.

This considered, and knowing about past behavior, FA's "feeling" that he will outscore SV is scary...

So going against the spirit of the rule is not an sporting behaviour. I'm sure you despise Newey, then.

[turssi]

Not going to happen. I wish the race would start already.

[Ferrari2183]

I think Scarbs is right. Using general parc ferme rules, if they are replacing something that doesn't need replacing, don't they have to start from the pitlane as it wouldn't fall under the gearbox rules.

It is not written in the regulations but this is what engineers believe. I think Ferrari can make a strong argument about it not being written in the regulations.

I don't like this and neither did I like that Vettel could change just about everything on his car in Abu Dhabi. Formula 1 needs a serious rethink.