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Ferrari to replace Massa's gearbox?


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#501 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:37

Well, I remember Ferrari winning their last WDC when they didn't have a #1 driver... Oh.. and 2 WCC. Focusing on one driver has brought them 0 (ZERO!)

What? You must be kidding, right? Have you forgotten about Raikkonen stopping to a standstill in China 2008 to give Massa his second place in the race? Or Ferrari switching Raikkonen and Massa in Brazil 2007? To name just a couple of instances in which Ferrari followed the "the best positioned driver in WDC is the #1 driver" rule.

And let's be clear: had Raikkonen proved he was stronger than Massa he would have been given the same status Schumacher had - what did you think the differency in salary meant?

Edited by Fontainebleau, 19 November 2012 - 15:39.


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#502 Tsarwash

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:57

F1 is not a sport.

What is it then ? You seem to know all of the answers.


#503 Tsarwash

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:58

Quotes in an internet thread means nothing to me. Austria 2002 should hurt a lot to Ferrari and it is all forgotten, just dust in the dust.

In that case, why are you posting in an internet thread ? That attitude simply makes no sense whatsoever for a person who is posting here ? Do you want us to listen to your words, but nobody else's ?


#504 Ravenak

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:00

What is it then ? You seem to know all of the answers.


A business, a competition, you name it.

It's officially a sport, but we all know it's not, really. That's just what they try to make you believe. It doesn't mean it's not enjoyable, of course.

Fernando Alonso is the best example in this respect, remember:

Edited by Ravenak, 19 November 2012 - 16:01.


#505 Craven Morehead

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:06

Solution?

4 or 6 place grid penalty for changing gearboxes.

Easy peasy.


This doesn't solve anything. Not that there was anything to solve in the first place,

#506 Enzoluis

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:10

In that case, why are you posting in an internet thread ? That attitude simply makes no sense whatsoever for a person who is posting here ? Do you want us to listen to your words, but nobody else's ?


Sorry, I will express better my self:

Quotes in an internet thread means nothing to me in order to understand the trend of the image of anyone. Austria 2002 should hurt a lot to Ferrari and it is all forgotten, just dust in the dust.

#507 John Player

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:13

I think that was too far, seriously, sabotaging their own car!!! The FIA probably didnt think a team would be capable of doing that, now they will likely tweak the rule to prevent it from happening again.

#508 boldhakka

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:20

What is it then ? You seem to know all of the answers.


It's a show, like Cirque du Soleil, but with some hints of real competition in certain aspects. Another good analogy is reality TV - the details are all real, but the broad strokes are artificial. It is very, very far from a pure sport.

I enjoy it though.

#509 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:32

It's officially a sport, but we all know it's not, really.

Speak for yourself man.

Its a sport as much any other in my eyes. Politics, drama, rule-pushing, $$$ and whatnot are just as much a part of other high-level sports, too.

#510 Ravenak

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:46

Speak for yourself man.

Its a sport as much any other in my eyes. Politics, drama, rule-pushing, $$$ and whatnot are just as much a part of other high-level sports, too.


There's nobody to speak for, just the hard facts.

If you wanna compare it to other sports, ok then: on a scale from 1 to 10, football is a 9 sport and F1 a 2 sport.

#511 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 17:19

There's nobody to speak for, just the hard facts.

Hamburgers are the best food in the world.

Thats a hard fact.

If you wanna compare it to other foods, on a scale from 1 to 10, hamburgers are like a 9, pizza is like a 2.

Edited by Seanspeed, 19 November 2012 - 17:22.


#512 paulrobs

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:02

Attendance numbers are in:

Fri 65,360
Sat 82,710
Sun 117,429

That's 265,499 for the whole event then. Nice.


Pretty impressive attendance that

#513 F1Champion

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:38

Thing is, I don't have a problem with Massa immediately moving over and allowing Alonso through but deliberately hampering him in the process isn't going to help his morale and future performances is it?

#514 Clatter

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:43

Thinking about it, it's surprising that a team have to prove a valid reason for retiring a car from a race and can't do it just because they are out of the points and want a free change of components ie gearbox, but are allowed to make a fake gearbox issue to manipulate the grid.

#515 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:44

Thing is, I don't have a problem with Massa immediately moving over and allowing Alonso through but deliberately hampering him in the process isn't going to help his morale and future performances is it?

He seemed to do just fine yesterday.

#516 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:51

Thing is, I don't have a problem with Massa immediately moving over and allowing Alonso through but deliberately hampering him in the process isn't going to help his morale and future performances is it?


I don't think so. Felipe understood exactly what was happening and why. As mentioned earlier the same thing had been done for himself. The WCC & WDC are the goals of every team. It was a tactical decision that was made to try and help increase the chance of one of the teams two drivers to win a Championship.

I don't think it will hurt Felipe's confidence. I think he's finally back & will finish this season strong. I also think he will do well next year & give Ferrari a proper chance at the WCC with both drivers driving well.

#517 Oho

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:56

I don't think so. Felipe understood exactly what was happening and why.


Yes he knows he is Alonsos's bitch.

#518 Fox1

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:03

I think that was too far, seriously, sabotaging their own car!!! The FIA probably didnt think a team would be capable of doing that, now they will likely tweak the rule to prevent it from happening again.

They could remove the rule altogether. This was a special case when breaking the gearbox seal was a tactical advantage, I don't expect F1 teams shooting themselves in the foot to be rampant. It was a very smart move by Ferrari given the result. Well handled in the PR department as well.

#519 fuelcell

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:07

I don't think so. Felipe understood exactly what was happening and why. As mentioned earlier the same thing had been done for himself. The WCC & WDC are the goals of every team. It was a tactical decision that was made to try and help increase the chance of one of the teams two drivers to win a Championship.

I don't think it will hurt Felipe's confidence. I think he's finally back & will finish this season strong. I also think he will do well next year & give Ferrari a proper chance at the WCC with both drivers driving well.



I couldn't agree more. It was a brilliant tactical move within the rules. Like in chess a sacrifice for a greater goal. Massa being out of the championship would and should want to do everything to help his team and team mate. Especially with the hope that he happens to be in the same situation next year. In fact i bet his confidence is already boosted by the fact that he was able to put himself in a position to significantly help the team and contribute, which he has not done so much earlier in the year. Remember his salary is paid by the success of the team not from race wins.

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#520 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:08

Yes he knows he is Alonsos's bitch.


No. If the shoe was on the other foot Fernando would've been told the same thing was happening to him. But since you said what you did, Kimi is Felipe's bitch correct?

#521 Menace

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:50

This doesn't solve anything. Not that there was anything to solve in the first place,



How about the manufacturer loses all the WCC points in a given race if they purposely incur a penalty without changing parts?

At the very minimum, then the mechanics/engineers will have to go through the effort of actually changing the gearbox, or incur the automatic loss of WCC points.

#522 Oho

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:00

No. If the shoe was on the other foot Fernando would've been told the same thing was happening to him. But since you said what you did, Kimi is Felipe's bitch correct?



Really, I must have missed Räikkönen committing an intentional foul before the race even started for the benefit of Massa.

#523 Number62

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:10

How about the manufacturer loses all the WCC points in a given race if they purposely incur a penalty without changing parts?

At the very minimum, then the mechanics/engineers will have to go through the effort of actually changing the gearbox, or incur the automatic loss of WCC points.


How about a 5 place grid penalty at the next event?

Presumably Helmut can now send JEV and Ricciardo out in Brazil Q2 right in front of Alonso to baulk his qualifying and keep him out of Q3.

Then go to the stewards and say we made a tactical decision to do it on purpose and take the 5 place grid drop in the best interest of the team.

It's a direct analogue. Break the rules on purpose because the benefit outweighs the penalty.

#524 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:16

Yes he knows he is Alonsos's bitch.


He know he was shit in the first part of the season and it's his fault if he have to help Alonso.

#525 Creepy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:31

Well, I remember Ferrari winning their last WDC when they didn't have a #1 driver... Oh.. and 2 WCC. Focusing on one driver has brought them 0 (ZERO!)


Phalacy.

The reason why they didn't get a championship isn't that, therefore your point is completely irrelevant.


See, the WDC they won previous to 2007 was gotten with a #1 policy.

#526 bonjon1979a

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 08:43

Can't believe people think what Ferrari did was wrong. Mclaren constantly bang on about the fact that they exist to win and yet they put driver equality ahead of challenging for the title. Ferrari were honest and did the right thing, fernando now has a chance in the final race, they did a good job.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 20 November 2012 - 08:44.


#527 pUs

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:08

How about a 5 place grid penalty at the next event?

Presumably Helmut can now send JEV and Ricciardo out in Brazil Q2 right in front of Alonso to baulk his qualifying and keep him out of Q3.

Then go to the stewards and say we made a tactical decision to do it on purpose and take the 5 place grid drop in the best interest of the team.

It's a direct analogue. Break the rules on purpose because the benefit outweighs the penalty.


:up:

#528 pUs

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:17

Can't believe people think what Ferrari did was wrong. Mclaren constantly bang on about the fact that they exist to win and yet they put driver equality ahead of challenging for the title. Ferrari were honest and did the right thing, fernando now has a chance in the final race, they did a good job.


Being honest is all very good, but that doesn't mean I have to like what they did. As somebody just wrote, imagine if Redbull would send out the Torro Rosso cars to block Alonso in qualifying, succeeding to keep him out of Q3 for instance, and then be "honest" about why the did it and accept the penalty.

Would you also consider that to be "right" just because they're exploring the rules and being honest about it?

#529 Oho

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:34

He know he was shit in the first part of the season and it's his fault if he have to help Alonso.


Be that as it may, it does not explain the observation that he is indeed Alonso's bitch away.

#530 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:44

Be that as it may, it does not explain the observation that he is indeed Alonso's bitch away.


Yes. But like Crucial said, if Massa was the best Ferrari driver who was in the fight for the WDC like Alonso in 2010 and this year, Ferrari would do in the same way. Like 2007 and 2008.

#531 Oho

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:59

Yes. But like Crucial said, if Massa was the best Ferrari driver who was in the fight for the WDC like Alonso in 2010 and this year, Ferrari would do in the same way. Like 2007 and 2008.


Well the thing is whether right or wrong it does seem Ferrari has the deck clearly stacked in favor of Alonso. For all intents and purposes Domenicali said as much round mid season when he said if Massa was to be replaced his replacement would be confined to supporting role, professional cycling anyone.....

#532 Massa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:43

Well the thing is whether right or wrong it does seem Ferrari has the deck clearly stacked in favor of Alonso. For all intents and purposes Domenicali said as much round mid season when he said if Massa was to be replaced his replacement would be confined to supporting role, professional cycling anyone.....



Yes because ATM there is no driver better than Alonso. But once again, if next year Massa is better than Alonso, Ferrari would do the same.