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Undisputed that Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso are the 3 best drivers in F1 now?


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Poll: Undisputed that Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso are the 3 best drivers in F1 now? (426 member(s) have cast votes)

Is this a correct Assessment?

  1. Yes (245 votes [57.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.65%

  2. No (180 votes [42.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.35%

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#151 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:26

That part became a little too far stretched imho. You´re walking on thin ice, if you draw conclusions via interconnecting driver performances based on a single year/ one driver matchup.

E.g. Kimi disappointing at Ferrari = being not so good at McLaren in the first place = Montoya being trash
But to spin it around: Trulli not better than Nando, but also not better than Ralf Schumacher (even though less clearly). Montoya having the measure of Ralf after his rookie season (= being better than Trulli and hence not far away from ALO) , but being pretty much dominated by Raikkönen. Et voila Kimi is as good if not better than Alonso...

If F1 would be so simple, we wouldn´t dicuss all the time about the driver´s abilities.

Just makes me wonder, thats all. No conclusions were made.

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#152 MP422

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:29

Hamilton
Alonso
Raikkonen

#153 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:31

No definitely not, i agree with you here, The reason Hamilton or Alonso havent pulled ahead in my ratings is cause of both those seasons respectively,Hamiltons 2008 was patchy too but i believe that Ferrari was faster generally and that makes up for it IMO.

Also Hamiltons 2011 was plain driving like a numpty, and he hasnt done anything like that in any of the other 5 of 6 seasons hes been in F1 it was just a bad time, unexcuseable yes, but totally diufferent reason to Raikonnen in 08, Kimi just underperformed badly. Hamiltons never ever actually struggled with the car, like where his teammate is owning him, in 2009 he turned it round with the team and scored most points second half.

Like i said again the top four are soooo close yet any other driver is so far behind, but if i had to pick thats my picks, and even then both first and 3rd place are drawn between the 4, too hard to choose.


- Being involved in too many incidents is also underperforming.
- In the last third of the 2011 season Jenson was better/faster in the majority of the races - so one could say Lewis also struggled with the car for a not so short time-period.

To be clear:
I don´t want to suggest that this puts a question mark over Lewis´general abilities.
But if you just neglect this season as a unimportant one-off from HAM, i could easily say the same about Kimi in 2008.

Edited by LiJu914, 19 November 2012 - 18:33.


#154 Rikhart

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:32

No chance in hell someone who got beaten by a ROOKIE to f1 in in-team battle, deserves to be considered top 3.

#155 rijole1

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:34

You talking about ALONSO bro!!!

:)

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#156 artista

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:35

Just makes me wonder, thats all. No conclusions were made.

Hmm, now that I think about it, I'm beginning to think you are right and, well, maybe Alonso wasn't so great in Team Enstone either. I wonder whether Team Enstone jump in form from 2009 (Alonso did 26 points) to 2012 (Räikkönen has over 200 points) is really about the car being so much better or maybe a switch to a better driver?
Just makes me wonder, that's all. No conclusions made here.

[/ironic mode off]

#157 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:41

Hmm, now that I think about it, I'm beginning to think you are right and, well, maybe Alonso wasn't so great in Team Enstone either. I wonder whether Team Enstone jump in form from 2009 (Alonso did 26 points) to 2012 (Räikkönen has over 200 points) is really about the car being so much better or maybe a switch to a better driver?
Just makes me wonder, that's all. No conclusions made here.

[/ironic mode off]

A 3 year jump in time with a full change of ownership inbetween and everything. Feel free to disagree with what I said, but I think you can do better than that. As it is, it just sounds like over-defensiveness.

#158 korzeniow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:42

Hmm, now that I think about it, I'm beginning to think you are right and, well, maybe Alonso wasn't so great in Team Enstone either. I wonder whether Team Enstone jump in form from 2009 (Alonso did 26 points) to 2012 (Räikkönen has over 200 points) is really about the car being so much better or maybe a switch to a better driver?
Just makes me wonder, that's all. No conclusions made here.

[/ironic mode off]


You are playing with words but you are missing his point complately. I'm not sure if on purpose though.

#159 artista

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:48

A 3 year jump in time with a full change of ownership inbetween and everything. Feel free to disagree with what I said, but I think you can do better than that. As it is, it just sounds like over-defensiveness.

Well, there were also changes in McLaren, and not just that coming from the Ferrari documents, including data about strategy. I have just used your own very logic.

Over-defensiveness? I'm not the one trying to prove the world Räikkönen was underachieving even the year he won the championship. Yes, yes, I know, it still hurts your boy couldn't win even in a cheating car and was beaten by a rookie, but boy, you're overdoing it. Oh, wait! I forgot you pretend to be a Räikkönen fan :rolleyes:


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#160 artista

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:52

You are playing with words but you are missing his point complately. I'm not sure if on purpose though.

Nope, I'm not playing with words, I'm playing with numbers and just for the fun of it.

#161 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:06

Well, there were also changes in McLaren, and not just that coming from the Ferrari documents, including data about strategy. I have just used your own very logic.

Over-defensiveness? I'm not the one trying to prove the world Räikkönen was underachieving even the year he won the championship. Yes, yes, I know, it still hurts your boy couldn't win even in a cheating car and was beaten by a rookie, but boy, you're overdoing it. Oh, wait! I forgot you pretend to be a Räikkönen fan :rolleyes:

Wow. :lol:

Alonso is not 'my boy' either. Didn't support him before he joined Ferrari and I wont support him after he leaves. I have, however, supported Kimi all throughout. Just cuz I dont think he's as good as you do doesn't mean I'm 'pretending' to be a fan. I just dont do the 'driver fan' thing like some of you guys do. I'm more of a team supporter, but I still have drivers I like, such as Kimi, Vettel and Webber.

And yes, over-defensiveness. Big time. All this 'my boy couldn't win in a cheating car', 'beaten by a rookie', yea, all terribly over-defensive stuff.

#162 Juan Kerr

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:10

I'd still put Alonso and Hamilton ahead of Vettel. I think Vettel's a little flattered at the moment by a great car and a team-mate who, unfortunately, is going through a poorish spell. At the moment:

Alonso/Hamilton
Vettel/Raikkonen/Button

There's not too much in it, though. If Raikkonen continues where he's been for the last few races (well, not so much the last one) I might see him alongside Alonso and Hamilton.



Hamilton
Alonso
Raikkonen
Vettel



#163 artista

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:26

Wow. :lol:

Alonso is not 'my boy' either. Didn't support him before he joined Ferrari and I wont support him after he leaves. I have, however, supported Kimi all throughout. Just cuz I dont think he's as good as you do doesn't mean I'm 'pretending' to be a fan. I just dont do the 'driver fan' thing like some of you guys do. I'm more of a team supporter, but I still have drivers I like, such as Kimi, Vettel and Webber.

And yes, over-defensiveness. Big time. All this 'my boy couldn't win in a cheating car', 'beaten by a rookie', yea, all terribly over-defensive stuff.

:lol:
Sean, the problem is that what you usually post don't fit with that... at all. There is no way you can sell it.

#164 race addicted

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:28

Hamilton
Alonso
Raikkonen
Vettel


Agree with this.

#165 Oho

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 19:58

Wow. :lol:

Alonso is not 'my boy' either. Didn't support him before he joined Ferrari and I wont support him after he leaves. I have, however, supported Kimi all throughout. Just cuz I dont think he's as good as you do doesn't mean I'm 'pretending' to be a fan. I just dont do the 'driver fan' thing like some of you guys do. I'm more of a team supporter, but I still have drivers I like, such as Kimi, Vettel and Webber.

And yes, over-defensiveness. Big time. All this 'my boy couldn't win in a cheating car', 'beaten by a rookie', yea, all terribly over-defensive stuff.


Right, for an article you seem about as genuine as 20$ Rolex.

#166 Taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:09

I prefer to consider Kimi below the others and have the pleasure of him beating the big ones. It has been a regal this year. He's made the exact same thing as Alonso last year: 3 rd to 4 th best car, a win and fighting all the time with better cars. In the end 3rd or 4th in the championship, beating a lot of guys with better machinery.

Last year many people said Fernando was the driver of the year, and the rest of us blended him the 2nd best. Lets see what they say this year of Raikkonen.

#167 robefc

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:11

Yes i am. Most of times he had to struggle with a clearly inferior car and yet he's 3rd in the championship anyway.


He's in 3rd place because of lewis losing potentially 3 wins (including one kimi inherited) because of refuelling c0ck ups and unreliability, not to mention macca's inability to do single digit pit stops earlier in the season.

Kimi has been solid and consistent this yearbut not fantastic imo, that car could have done more.

2007/8, he was the driver I feared as a Lewis fan, even in 2008 it was always him I was worried about in races.

#168 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:28

I prefer to consider Kimi below the others and have the pleasure of him beating the big ones. It has been a regal this year. He's made the exact same thing as Alonso last year: 3 rd to 4 th best car, a win and fighting all the time with better cars. In the end 3rd or 4th in the championship, beating a lot of guys with better machinery.

Last year many people said Fernando was the driver of the year, and the rest of us blended him the 2nd best. Lets see what they say this year of Raikkonen.


You can be in the 2nd best car in year X and still have less chances to win something than with the 4th best car in year Y.

Such a mere ranking-list is just a over-simplification of the actual hierarchy. It´s also very important how big the gaps to other teams are and if the hierarchy stayed consistent throughout the year or if it changed in between races.

Last year the gap between Ferrari and Red Bull/McLaren was quite signifcant and certainly bigger than the gap between Lotus and others in many races that year.
That gap in 2011 also remained pretty steady except for Silverstone with the whole overrun-clutter. The performance differences of this year on the other hand changed pretty often and Lotus was even sometimes the fastest car in the race.

#169 Taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:32

Ok, I get it. If it was Alonso in this year Lotus, we'd be all over the "More complete driver" logic. Oh well. I'm sure Kimi himself doesn't care.

#170 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 20:50

Ok, I get it. If it was Alonso in this year Lotus, we'd be all over the "More complete driver" logic. Oh well. I'm sure Kimi himself doesn't care.


No. If it was ALO driving the Lotus this year with the same performances, i would say exactly the same.

And i mainly critized your ranking-list-deduction and its implications - not any of the drivers.

How flawed that concept is, can better be seen without using two different drivers - example:

Alonso drove the 3rd best car in 2011. Did he have any chance to win the WDC? Not at all.
Alonso drives the 3rd best car in 2012. Does he have a chance to win the WDC. Yes, hes has.

3rd best car ≠ 3rd best car ...and so on.

That´s also the reason, why i don´t like this concept, when someone tries to argue, that Alonso walked over the water this season...

#171 hello86

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:15

I think it´s a top 4 and not just a top 3! Seb, Ham, Alonso and Kimi all drove a great season this year and there is no big difference between them!

IMO Ham has been the best driver this year! It was his Macca who ****ed up his chances!

Alonso had a great season but I still think that he is hyped too much! The Ferrari is slow in qualifying (and you can also blame Alonso for that (as you can blame Kimi for not being the best qualifier)) but in the races the Ferrari has always been one of the fastest cars. In the last few races Massa hasn´t been much slower than him!

I think that lately Kimi has been really strong! He did improve a lot during the whole season (pace wise). I agree that at the beginning he made too many mistakes during qualifying but lately he has been really strong.

Yes Seb has the fastest car but look what Webbo is doing! He usually is 3-4 tenth slower than Seb. And while RB might be clearly the best car in qualifying it isn´t in the race! Still fast but not always the fastest!

#172 hello86

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:18

He's in 3rd place because of lewis losing potentially 3 wins (including one kimi inherited) because of refuelling c0ck ups and unreliability, not to mention macca's inability to do single digit pit stops earlier in the season.

Kimi has been solid and consistent this yearbut not fantastic imo, that car could have done more.

2007/8, he was the driver I feared as a Lewis fan, even in 2008 it was always him I was worried about in races.


In 2008? This has been Kimi´s worst season!

As I said Ham would fight with Alo and Seb for the title without all those ****-ups of Macca! But so would Kimi if the car had been faster since the summer break!

#173 F1isZen

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:38

Hamilton?



I like the fact that you knew he was talking about Vettel, but your insecurity quickly had to point out Hamilon so as to play dumb

#174 kpchelsea

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:48

I prefer to consider Kimi below the others and have the pleasure of him beating the big ones. It has been a regal this year. He's made the exact same thing as Alonso last year: 3 rd to 4 th best car, a win and fighting all the time with better cars. In the end 3rd or 4th in the championship, beating a lot of guys with better machinery.

Last year many people said Fernando was the driver of the year, and the rest of us blended him the 2nd best. Lets see what they say this year of Raikkonen.

Kimi has driven very well, a reliable car helps as well though

#175 Taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:49

No. If it was ALO driving the Lotus this year with the same performances, i would say exactly the same.

And i mainly critized your ranking-list-deduction and its implications - not any of the drivers.

How flawed that concept is, can better be seen without using two different drivers - example:

Alonso drove the 3rd best car in 2011. Did he have any chance to win the WDC? Not at all.
Alonso drives the 3rd best car in 2012. Does he have a chance to win the WDC. Yes, hes has.

3rd best car ≠ 3rd best car ...and so on.

That´s also the reason, why i don´t like this concept, when someone tries to argue, that Alonso walked over the water this season...




Last year the big diference was Vettel. He was above everyone might as well admit it. All the others [Webber, Hamilton, Button, Massa] were more or less the same as they are this year. Granted the red Bull was better than this year. But Alonso's car was more or less as good as this year's Lotus. Alonso was fighting 5 fast guys, Kimi is fighting 5 fast guys.




#176 korzeniow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:55

In 2008? This has been Kimi´s worst season!

As I said Ham would fight with Alo and Seb for the title without all those ****-ups of Macca! But so would Kimi if the car had been faster since the summer break!


What about Kimi's car before summer break?

#177 hello86

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:57

What about Kimi's car before summer break?


It has been fast! :up: But Kimi wasn´t as good as he is nowdays in my opinion.

#178 korzeniow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 21:58

Last year the big diference was Vettel. He was above everyone might as well admit it. All the others [Webber, Hamilton, Button, Massa] were more or less the same as they are this year. Granted the red Bull was better than this year. But Alonso's car was more or less as good as this year's Lotus. Alonso was fighting 5 fast guys, Kimi is fighting 5 fast guys.


I don't remember Ferrari having dominant pace or even leaders pace in any race in 2011.

everyone might as well admit it :wave:

#179 korzeniow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:02

It has been fast! :up: But Kimi wasn´t as good as he is nowdays in my opinion.


I also think that Kimi improved trough out the season. Which bodes well for the next year.

But looking trough the whole season, Kimi can't be compared to top 3 yet. Because we won't gonna judge drivers by their last race, will we?

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#180 Taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:05

I don't remember Ferrari having dominant pace or even leaders pace in any race in 2011.

everyone might as well admit it :wave:

They were pretty good in Silverstone. Just like lets say... Lotus at Hungary this year.




#181 hello86

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:07

I also think that Kimi improved trough out the season. Which bodes well for the next year.

But looking trough the whole season, Kimi can't be compared to top 3 yet. Because we won't gonna judge drivers by their last race, will we?


Well last race hasn´t been his best! ;)
But still IMO Kimi hasn´t been worse than Alonso and Vettel looking at the whole season! I already wrote down my reasoning!
Just my opinion and nobdy has to agree with that! And I dont want to chance anybodys opinion!

#182 bourbon

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:10

I don't know about Vettel still. In my mind he still hasn't proven he's in the same group as Hamilton and Alonso. He's pretty much had the best car for 3 years, and in the off times when he hasn't he hasn't really "out performed" the car. He also still seems to have these "tantrums" when things aren't going exactly his way. He's definitely VERY VERY fast. But as a complete driver, i'm not sure yet he's in the top three. My order would be

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Button or Raikonnen
4. Vettel

Now 3 and 4 are definitely contentious I will agree. There's no doubting Vettel's raw speed. And if we were measuring pure speed the list would be more like

Vettel
Hamilton
Alonso

but we're not. We're voting for the 3 BEST drivers, which in my mind means the complete package.


I don't understand your below criteria at all.

To me that means being able to deal with things when they're not going all your way.


What does that even mean? Scoring well in the points despite a tricky car that can only render poor qualifying? If so, how do you possibly count Vettel out after the entire first and middle portion of this very season? His qualifyings were largely miserable, he even fell out of the top 10 and yet he managed to make the best of it and remain in the points for the most part in all of his finishes so that now he challenges for the title.

Please explain what Alonso and Hamilton, Button or Raikkonen have done that evidences a better job.

It means having the experience when things are bad. And in my mind Vettel just hasn't really experienced those yet.


Hasn't experienced what yet? Bad times? Again, re-watch the start of the year. Things were bad for him - very bad, yet he was still managing to bring the car home in the points. On the whole, Hamilton and Vettel have less experience than the older drivers, but I don't think that is what you are referring to.


He's unproven. He's had a Newey car for 3 years.


It isn't the same "Newey car" for 3 years. The RB5 was shot at the start; Seb's RB6 was one of the most unreliable top cars since Kimi was at McLaren. The 2011 was stellar and the 2012 was a very difficult car for Seb to drive for most of the season.

Again, can you explain why it is you are blatantly ignoring these things?


Alonso most definitely has. There's no argument. Hamilton consistently drives above and beyond the car.


Here again, explain what you are talking about. What exactly does "drive above and beyond the car" mean? They bring home a difficult car? So has Seb. They have poor qualifying? Seb has. They manage to challenge for the title despite a difficult season? Seb has as well. Hamilton and Alonso have not had the exact same experiences - like Vettel's all experiences differ. But they have all 3 suffered difficult spans of racing, cars that lack performance, reliability issues and incidents beyond their control. The fact that Vettel has challenged for the title since 2009, despite his, doesn't mean they didn't exist and all of his difficulties didn't happen. You can't just choose to forget all of the problems his RBR cars have had just because it is convenient. You can't point to the races that went stellar through the weekends since 2009 and try to say that proves the RBR cars have been absolutely and consistently perfect. That is simply untrue.

Again, explaining would help.

We know that Button can't do that, but when the car's perfect I would argue that he's ALMOST/IF NOT as fast as Vettel. The reason I put him ahead of Vettel is simply because of his experience and the fact that I believe "package" wise he's more mature. Raikonnen is also EXTREMELY fast and it would be interesting to see Vettel and Raikonnen in the same car, but again its difficult at this stage to put Vettel above him.


There is no substitute for experience. Kimi and Jense definitely have it over Vettel and Hamilton in that regard. That does not need to be defended. They all can be quick too, so no disagreement here. But these are not the factors that you started off discussing. If pure experience was your only criteria, I would agree with you. But it isn't.

Anyway.. just my 10cents.


Yeah but I don't get it.


#183 FigJam

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 22:10

It's been undisputed for 3 years.

Raikkonen is 4th...for now anyway. A mighty effort after 2 years out.

Then its daylight to 5th.

#184 scandyman

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:44

It will be interesting to see how team bosses rates them after this season.

#185 korzeniow

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 10:19

It will be interesting to see how team bosses rates them after this season.


usually it corresponds with drivers WDC standings

Edited by korzeniow, 20 November 2012 - 10:20.


#186 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:28

usually it corresponds with drivers WDC standings

Not perse. I thought Vettel had it over Button in 09.

#187 superdelphinus

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:32

Heiki was also in the top 10 last year? If I had to guess i'd say they'd vote Alo, ham, vet, rai as the top 4 in that order. Not that I necessarily agree with that

#188 Tauhid

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:41

ALONSO
HAMILTON
VETTEL

Raikkonen comes just behind these three. Vettel even if he wins 3 WDC's will remain 3rd best on the grid because just like Alonso mentioned on Sky Sports, in the first part of the season when the car was middle of the range, Vettel was 3rd and Webber was 6th or probably the other way round. Just after Singapore, their car has picked up significant pace thanks to Newey and his brilliance and now look they are getting poles and winning races left and right. Total domination on the best car of the grid. Lewis kept the MP4-27 honest, scored 3 consecutive poles on the fastest car of the first 3 races. Was on top of the standings when it mattered but then reliability completely obliterated his challenge of the title so yeah he does the best on a bad/good car week in week out.

He has won races and dominated qualifying when Vettel couldn't come up close. He did nothing wrong this season but his team and its' reliability has let him down. So yeah he will remain no.2 for me. Once he challenges Vettel and Alonso for the title and comes out on top in the next few seasons, we may witness the best of Lewis Hamilton and claim he has now become the best driver on the grid. Now though, Alonso remains on top!

#189 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 13:55

ALONSO
HAMILTON
VETTEL

Raikkonen comes just behind these three. Vettel even if he wins 3 WDC's will remain 3rd best on the grid because just like Alonso mentioned on Sky Sports, in the first part of the season when the car was middle of the range, Vettel was 3rd and Webber was 6th or probably the other way round.

I'm sure you then wouldn't mind telling us where Alonso was when Ferrari was in the middle of the range?

#190 Tauhid

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:15

I'm sure you then wouldn't mind telling us where Alonso was when Ferrari was in the middle of the range?


Is it just me or didn't Alonso win 3 races earlier on this season with the 3rd best car? He also won the Malaysian Grand Prix when he qualified 9th on the grid. Something you can't say the same about Vettel throughout this season even though the weather did help.

#191 darkkis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:18

Meh... Ferrari makes Alonso look better than he really is. He gets all the support from Ferrari while Massa is just Alonso's slave. Kimi didn't get the same thing when he was racing for them. :down:

My top 3 in non-specific order would be: Vettel, Hamilton, Räikkönen

Edited by darkkis, 20 November 2012 - 14:19.


#192 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:20

Is it just me or didn't Alonso win 3 races earlier on this season with the 3rd best car? He also won the Malaysian Grand Prix when he qualified 9th on the grid. Something you can't say the same about Vettel throughout this season even though the weather did help.

He won Malaysia in the best wet-weather car.
He was 4th in Valencia before a SC gave him 3rd, and then put him on Grosjean's tail before two Renault engines burst. So a good drive to 4th, but we've seen Vettel do that as well.
Ferrari was not the 3rd-fastest car in Germany.

So, please point me to when Alonso got such results on merit.
He did well to be there when opportunities arose, but he did not win on skill alone.

#193 Trust

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:33

Great time to start the poll, just right after the last race podium on which Ham, Alo and Vet were standing. If the poll was race before, I wonder what results would be.

#194 Fontainebleau

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:06

Well, there were also changes in McLaren, and not just that coming from the Ferrari documents, including data about strategy. I have just used your own very logic.

Over-defensiveness? I'm not the one trying to prove the world Räikkönen was underachieving even the year he won the championship. Yes, yes, I know, it still hurts your boy couldn't win even in a cheating car and was beaten by a rookie, but boy, you're overdoing it. Oh, wait! I forgot you pretend to be a Räikkönen fan :rolleyes:

What it seems still hurts, Artista, is that your boy fell short of his team's expectations and was dismissed to make place for a driver that the team considered was better than him.

And given the generalised claim that your preferred driver does not care about anything, it is about time that some fans of him take a leaf from his book and let that go. Seriously, I don't think that the potential animadversion that Hamilton/Alonso fans may feel towards Alonso/Hamilton is even close to the animadversion that some Raikkonen fans harbour towards Alonso.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 20 November 2012 - 16:11.


#195 Boxerevo

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 16:13

Voted yes,but not sure,this raikkonen is the best raikkonen i ever saw.

I will say the reason behind my opinion.

Kimi,was a driver imo that only would go to a overtake if he was 100% sure it would be a clean pass,many times on the past i saw Kimi running "forever" behind someone and his race being screwed because of this,without a one single attempt of risk move.

Now,what i see is a more agressive raikkonen,his moves still beautiful and clean,but they are hard too and he is trusting more on the other driver to not screw the move.

He is similar to Button,but with more Raw Speed,he just need to continue improving his qualifying.

Button didn't good this year,but he is top 5 for me.

I am unsure,but maybe,maybe we have 4 undisputed best drivers.

Edited by Boxerevo, 20 November 2012 - 16:21.


#196 autosportfan

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:10

Nope.

I think Seb has done enough to be clear at the top.

then alonso closely followed by hamilton.

followed by kimi.

with Webber and Button just below that.



I would also sign to this ...



#197 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:20

Not sure if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but about Vettel's clapping gesture as he crossed the finishing line at Austin - I assumed at the time it was aimed towards his team for winning the constructors, but DC read it as him congratulating Hamilton? Is there a consensus as to what he meant by that?

Edited by PretentiousBread, 20 November 2012 - 18:21.


#198 shonguiz

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:21

http://www.guardian....mself-in-austin

Well modesty isn't one of his qualities.

#199 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:29

Kimi,was a driver imo that only would go to a overtake if he was 100% sure it would be a clean pass,many times on the past i saw Kimi running "forever" behind someone and his race being screwed because of this,without a one single attempt of risk move.

Now,what i see is a more agressive raikkonen,his moves still beautiful and clean,but they are hard too and he is trusting more on the other driver to not screw the move.


F1 has changed. Don´t think Räikkönen has. Most of the moves you see from him now were not even possible not that long ago.

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#200 TomNokoe

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:42

based on this season where drivers have been mentally and physically pushed to the limit

Hamilton 9.5/10
Alonso 9/10

no one else comes close to these pair. vettel has had his bacon saved by newey and let's not forget at the start of the season he was gifted a few positions in many races e.g Schumacher in Australia etc. his only great race was Spa.