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Undisputed that Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso are the 3 best drivers in F1 now?


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Poll: Undisputed that Hamilton, Vettel, and Alonso are the 3 best drivers in F1 now? (426 member(s) have cast votes)

Is this a correct Assessment?

  1. Yes (245 votes [57.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.65%

  2. No (180 votes [42.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.35%

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#201 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:49

Not sure if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but about Vettel's clapping gesture as he crossed the finishing line at Austin - I assumed at the time it was aimed towards his team for winning the constructors, but DC read it as him congratulating Hamilton? Is there a consensus as to what he meant by that?

I assumed it was to Lewis, but now you've got me second guessing.

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#202 2ms

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:57

There are so many Alonso or Hamilton fans. The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007). And then the only people going around equivalently raving about Kimi are his fans, and the same for Vettel.

To me, when you factor out that BS, you're left with that Vettel is clearly the most consistent and successful driver in F1 presently. However, Kimi is in an noncompetitive team and completely outdrove both Alonso and Hamilton during the majority of the last 5 years. Sure, you could say Hamilton out drove him in 2008, but then Button out drove Hamilton by an even larger margin last season. You could say Alonso outdrove Kimi 6 and 7 years ago, but you could also say that 2007 (where Kimi outdrove everyone) is more relevant and that the 2005 WDC really could have gone either way. In Alonso's case, there are almost 10 seasons now where he's been in F1 but only the 2 championships 6 and 7 years ago.

For lack of current and applicable data, we can't say Kimi is the best. Among the other 3, any sensible person has to acknowledge that Vettel has been head and shoulders above everyone else.

#203 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:21

based on this season where drivers have been mentally and physically pushed to the limit

Hamilton 9.5/10
Alonso 9/10

no one else comes close to these pair. vettel has had his bacon saved by newey and let's not forget at the start of the season he was gifted a few positions in many races e.g Schumacher in Australia etc. his only great race was Spa.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
having fun making up history to fit your agenda?
and then to claim Vettel's the one being gifted positions; as if you haven't watched a single race. :drunk:

#204 igoru

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:25

No doubt, Alonso is top dog.

#205 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:27

There are so many Alonso or Hamilton fans. The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007). And then the only people going around equivalently raving about Kimi are his fans, and the same for Vettel.

To me, when you factor out that BS, you're left with that Vettel is clearly the most consistent and successful driver in F1 presently. However, Kimi is in an noncompetitive team and completely outdrove both Alonso and Hamilton during the majority of the last 5 years. Sure, you could say Hamilton out drove him in 2008, but then Button out drove Hamilton by an even larger margin last season. You could say Alonso outdrove Kimi 6 and 7 years ago, but you could also say that 2007 (where Kimi outdrove everyone) is more relevant and that the 2005 WDC really could have gone either way. In Alonso's case, there are almost 10 seasons now where he's been in F1 but only the 2 championships 6 and 7 years ago.

For lack of current and applicable data, we can't say Kimi is the best. Among the other 3, any sensible person has to acknowledge that Vettel has been head and shoulders above everyone else.

I pretty much disagree with every single one of those sentences, so I apologize for only picking out the 1st part of your post, but you seem to have implied that this 'fact' is the basis for the rest of your post, so its worth picking out.

1) When a poll was taken here recently, Kimi was the most popular driver, so its not like its just a lack of Kimi fans around.

2) Even if you ignored that 2007 happened, there'd be a very good case for Lewis and Alonso being top drivers. That 2007 did occur just kind of reinforces things.

3) Not everybody is just basing their opinion off of who their favorite driver is. I'm sure many are, but not everybody. I see plenty of Alonso/Lewis fans including Kimi and/or Vettel and vice-versa.

#206 BernieEc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:30

There are so many Alonso or Hamilton fans. The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007). And then the only people going around equivalently raving about Kimi are his fans, and the same for Vettel.

To me, when you factor out that BS, you're left with that Vettel is clearly the most consistent and successful driver in F1 presently. However, Kimi is in an noncompetitive team and completely outdrove both Alonso and Hamilton during the majority of the last 5 years. Sure, you could say Hamilton out drove him in 2008, but then Button out drove Hamilton by an even larger margin last season. You could say Alonso outdrove Kimi 6 and 7 years ago, but you could also say that 2007 (where Kimi outdrove everyone) is more relevant and that the 2005 WDC really could have gone either way. In Alonso's case, there are almost 10 seasons now where he's been in F1 but only the 2 championships 6 and 7 years ago.

For lack of current and applicable data, we can't say Kimi is the best. Among the other 3, any sensible person has to acknowledge that Vettel has been head and shoulders above everyone else.


So i guess all those who say Alonso deserve the title this year and those who say Lewis driving has been impeccable e.g. Brundle, Herbert, Alguesari, Schumacher Garry Anderson, villeneuve, to name a few. Am sure you believe in what you are saying but no disrespect I sort of value their opinions when it comes to driving more than yours.

#207 oligc94

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:34

I pretty much disagree with every single one of those sentences, so I apologize for only picking out the 1st part of your post, but you seem to have implied that this 'fact' is the basis for the rest of your post, so its worth picking out.

1) When a poll was taken here recently, Kimi was the most popular driver, so its not like its just a lack of Kimi fans around.

2) Even if you ignored that 2007 happened, there'd be a very good case for Lewis and Alonso being top drivers. That 2007 did occur just kind of reinforces things.

3) Not everybody is just basing their opinion off of who their favorite driver is. I'm sure many are, but not everybody. I see plenty of Alonso/Lewis fans including Kimi and/or Vettel and vice-versa.


Haha I agree. There was so much wrong with it that I couldn't even bring myself to muster a response. I simply sat there, sighed and retreated... :lol:


#208 oligc94

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:36

I assumed it was to Lewis, but now you've got me second guessing.


I originally thought so too. Perhaps a sort of repentance for his rant over the radio once he had time to cool off?

#209 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:39

Haha I agree. There was so much wrong with it that I couldn't even bring myself to muster a response. I simply sat there, sighed and retreated... :lol:

I should have done the same, honestly.

#210 Bartel

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:40

There are so many Alonso or Hamilton fans. The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007). And then the only people going around equivalently raving about Kimi are his fans, and the same for Vettel.

To me, when you factor out that BS, you're left with that Vettel is clearly the most consistent and successful driver in F1 presently. However, Kimi is in an noncompetitive team and completely outdrove both Alonso and Hamilton during the majority of the last 5 years. Sure, you could say Hamilton out drove him in 2008, but then Button out drove Hamilton by an even larger margin last season. You could say Alonso outdrove Kimi 6 and 7 years ago, but you could also say that 2007 (where Kimi outdrove everyone) is more relevant and that the 2005 WDC really could have gone either way. In Alonso's case, there are almost 10 seasons now where he's been in F1 but only the 2 championships 6 and 7 years ago.

For lack of current and applicable data, we can't say Kimi is the best. Among the other 3, any sensible person has to acknowledge that Vettel has been head and shoulders above everyone else.

Vettel has been head and shoulders above when hes had the quickest car. When he doesn't, he can't win races. Bahrain > Singapore, thats a long drought for the 'best' driver in F1 don't you think? The only other time he looked like winning a race was Valencia when his car was head and shoulders above the rest.

#211 oligc94

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:41

I should have done the same, honestly.


I particularly liked the logic behind the OP suggesting that the 2007 Alonso/Hamilton teammate battle was not particularly relevant, but that Kimi's performance in 2007 was! As soon as Kimi's name was mentioned, I could see where he was going...

#212 Vesuvius

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:43

Vettel has been head and shoulders above when hes had the quickest car. When he doesn't, he can't win races. Bahrain > Singapore, thats a long drought for the 'best' driver in F1 don't you think? The only other time he looked like winning a race was Valencia when his car was head and shoulders above the rest.


BS, he has won without the best car ( example monza 2008 with Toro Rosso) and will even in the future.Also this season McLaren has and is on par with Red Bull

Edited by Vesuvius, 20 November 2012 - 19:44.


#213 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:46

As soon as Kimi's name was mentioned, I could see where he was going...

To be fair, I think this topic from the start was going to be a sore subject with a lot of Kimi fans.

#214 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:46

There are so many Alonso or Hamilton fans. The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007). And then the only people going around equivalently raving about Kimi are his fans, and the same for Vettel.

To me, when you factor out that BS, you're left with that Vettel is clearly the most consistent and successful driver in F1 presently. However, Kimi is in an noncompetitive team and completely outdrove both Alonso and Hamilton during the majority of the last 5 years. Sure, you could say Hamilton out drove him in 2008, but then Button out drove Hamilton by an even larger margin last season. You could say Alonso outdrove Kimi 6 and 7 years ago, but you could also say that 2007 (where Kimi outdrove everyone) is more relevant and that the 2005 WDC really could have gone either way. In Alonso's case, there are almost 10 seasons now where he's been in F1 but only the 2 championships 6 and 7 years ago.

For lack of current and applicable data, we can't say Kimi is the best. Among the other 3, any sensible person has to acknowledge that Vettel has been head and shoulders above everyone else.


Ok... the first part of your post deals with claiming the poll being invalid.... and yet you somehow link that a a justification that Vettel is head and shoulders above everybody else. Eh? And you're comparing different seasons, bringing in teammates and then comparing against drivers who were in different cars. All very muddled. Perhaps you could find a sensible person to tell us all why Vettel is head and shoulders above the rest?

For the avoidance of doubt, Vettel may be the best. We have seen enough from him to disregard the best car arguement (except when going by bare statistics), especially last season which was perfect. I do agree that we can't say Kimi is the best. Because he isn't.



#215 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:48

Saying Vettel was head and shoulders above Alonso and Hamilton is a bit rich, but then of course there are also people who make it even richer.

Vettel has been head and shoulders above when hes had the quickest car. When he doesn't, he can't win races. Bahrain > Singapore, thats a long drought for the 'best' driver in F1 don't you think? The only other time he looked like winning a race was Valencia when his car was head and shoulders above the rest.

meanwhile Alonso won, let's see...
1. in the fastest wet weather car
2. in a bulletproof car being gifted 3 places
3. in the shared fastest car with the highest top speed

wow, what a difference that is... :lol:

but yeah, you go and play with your double standard if you're too affraid for a fair comparison.

Edited by mnmracer, 20 November 2012 - 19:50.


#216 sopa

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:49

This is even funny that Vettel is rated as 4th or 5th best driver on the grid by some. Webber outracing him a couple of times has been blown out of proportion. Hamilton has been beaten by Button a few occasions too, even in 2012, when Button's season has by and large been considered as rather average. And Alonso has been outpaced at least twice by Massa.

Let's take it this way. I think a good claim can be made that Vettel has been the best driver of the second half of the season, even regardless of car advantage. Since the German GP, there hasn't been even a single race, where Webber managed to outpace or match Vettel. And this includes races, where Red Bull was struggling (from Hungary to Italy). However, during the same period both Hamilton and Alonso have been outpaced on occasion. You can bang on about car advantage as much as you want, but the fact remains that Seb is supremely consistent at the highest level.

I think people should learn to deal with the ability of Seb and stop frustrating themselves by trying to convince themselves that he isn't that good, while the kid keeps racking up supreme results. I mean Vettel has a shot at Schumacher's record in the long run unless he makes a very bad career choice and disappears into midfield teams. Surely you need great cars to threaten records, but only great drivers can manage it by being on top of their game season in, season out. No Kimi 2008 or Hamilton 2011 style off-seasons.

#217 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:53

This is even funny that Vettel is rated as 4th or 5th best driver on the grid by some. Webber outracing him a couple of times has been blown out of proportion.

Wel the funny, or rather sad, thing is, that people are resorting to lies to match their agenda.
If anyone actually bothered to look at what happened, they'd see that Webber actually only outraced Vettel 3 times, bar non-driver issues on either side. If Massa keeps on his form in Brazil, he'll match that :lol:

#218 swerved

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:13

1 Sebastian Vettel German 273
2 Fernando Alonso Spanish 260
3 Kimi Räikkönen Finnish 206



Posters, Journo's, Pundits other drivers, etc can all give their opinion on who the best top 3 are, at the end of the season F1.com will publish the result, and no amount of dispute, debate, or argument on this board, and in all probability outside of this board will change that.

Currently, the top 3 drivers are listed above.

#219 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:20

The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007).


The fans?? :lol: No, no, you didn´t even mention the worst part... you can expect that sort of thing from a fan, but it´s not only the fans!! The guys themselves pull that "praise each other to look better, and dismiss the rest" trick.

I think they both are insecure characters. When you feel the need to constantly point out how you´re at the very top, and others are below, it probably means you know inside you it´s not exactly like that.

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#220 Coops3

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:20

Not sure if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but about Vettel's clapping gesture as he crossed the finishing line at Austin - I assumed at the time it was aimed towards his team for winning the constructors, but DC read it as him congratulating Hamilton? Is there a consensus as to what he meant by that?


I think it was to Lewis. He did it as he passed him, so...

#221 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:20

meanwhile Alonso won, let's see...
1. in the fastest wet weather car

Only wet weather race was Malaysia and I remember the Mclarens being faster in the beginning and a Sauber faster near the end.

2. in a bulletproof car being gifted 3 places

But not the fastest car, I'm sure you'll agree.

3. in the shared fastest car with the highest top speed

I would have said the Mclaren was fastest(if we're talking about Germany), but it was close, I'll give you that. Ferrari's top speed wasn't all that great, either. It was actually a weakness of theirs until recently. Alonso's saving grace was coming up on backmarkers at the right time and ensuring he got a great exit out of Turn 2/3.

There's ways of defending Vettel other than trying to downplay what Alonso has done. It really doesn't help your argument much.

#222 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:24

1 Sebastian Vettel German 273
2 Fernando Alonso Spanish 260
3 Kimi Räikkönen Finnish 206

Posters, Journo's, Pundits other drivers, etc can all give their opinion on who the best top 3 are, at the end of the season F1.com will publish the result, and no amount of dispute, debate, or argument on this board, and in all probability outside of this board will change that.

Currently, the top 3 drivers are listed above.

Thats the top 3 ranking in the 2012 championship, not the 'official best 3 drivers in F1' ranking.

#223 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:25

1 Sebastian Vettel German 273
2 Fernando Alonso Spanish 260
3 Kimi Räikkönen Finnish 206



Posters, Journo's, Pundits other drivers, etc can all give their opinion on who the best top 3 are, at the end of the season F1.com will publish the result, and no amount of dispute, debate, or argument on this board, and in all probability outside of this board will change that.

Currently, the top 3 drivers are listed above.


True, if you take the table at face value and don't look any deeper into driver performances (not that the top 3 there are in any way undeserving of their positions)...... but viewing the tables and nothing else would be a bit like saying Kimi's come a long way from being the 10th best driver in 2001 and worse than Heidfeld. What were McLaren thinking?  ;)

#224 P123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:33

The fans?? :lol: No, no, you didn´t even mention the worst part... you can expect that sort of thing from a fan, but it´s not only the fans!! The guys themselves pull that "praise each other to look better, and dismiss the rest" trick.

I think they both are insecure characters. When you feel the need to constantly point out how you´re at the very top, and others are below, it probably means you know inside you it´s not exactly like that.


Praising each other doesn't quite equate to them being so insecure that they have to talk themselves up.... Alonso said it about Hamilton at the start of the season. Hamilton said it about Alonso a few races ago. Are you sure it's not your own insecurities that lead you (and others) to constantly talk about it, rather than the drivers? It's hardly an 'out there' belief expressed by either deserving of the almost hysterical reaction from some quarters.

#225 mnmracer

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:39

Only wet weather race was Malaysia and I remember the Mclarens being faster in the beginning and a Sauber faster near the end.


But not the fastest car, I'm sure you'll agree.


I would have said the Mclaren was fastest(if we're talking about Germany), but it was close, I'll give you that. Ferrari's top speed wasn't all that great, either. It was actually a weakness of theirs until recently. Alonso's saving grace was coming up on backmarkers at the right time and ensuring he got a great exit out of Turn 2/3.

There's ways of defending Vettel other than trying to downplay what Alonso has done. It really doesn't help your argument much.

It's not downplaying what Alonso has done, it's holding both to the same standard.
Claiming Alonso won those races despite his car is factually inaccurate.
In Germany, he had far superior top speed to Vettel, who he was fighting: not even with DRS could Vettel come closer on the straight.

Alonso made it to 4th on merrit in Valencia; the rest he was gifted. He did well to make it to 4th, but to say the win was on merrit, is incorrect.

Edited by mnmracer, 20 November 2012 - 20:41.


#226 undersquare

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:45

I look at Grosjean's driving and I don't see someone especially quick, so although I like and rate Kimi I can't include him in a top 4 this year. Next year perhaps he'll be back up there again, but for now LH/FA/SV are untouchable.

#227 FenderJaguar

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:46

these threads keep me from visiting the forums more often. but anyway, drivers have different strengths. personally I would put Vettel as the toughest one to beat over all, Alonso as the best at putting the team behind him and Hamilton as a fast driver that still needs to get more mental strength. and the strongest driver mentally is Kimi and he can beat the other 3 in the same team if the circumstances are right. No doubt about that at all. Another personal opinion for anyone who is interested is that both Kimi and Alonso seem more mature than Vettel and Hamilton but maybe they are hungrier. But these 4 are the top drivers of the current grid. Let's see what happens next year.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 20 November 2012 - 20:47.


#228 swerved

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:48

True, if you take the table at face value and don't look any deeper into driver performances (not that the top 3 there are in any way undeserving of their positions)...... but viewing the tables and nothing else would be a bit like saying Kimi's come a long way from being the 10th best driver in 2001 and worse than Heidfeld. What were McLaren thinking? ;)


Probably thinking similar to what they're thinking about Perez, "This one will be good"  ;)




#229 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:17

Praising each other doesn't quite equate to them being so insecure that they have to talk themselves up...


Feeling the need to post inmediately on the internet why you´ve just been outqualified does. Feeling the need to imply you´re better than the guy getting the success right now, and pointing to his car´s designer as the rival to beat does.


#230 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:34

Agreed these 3 are the best 3 on the grid. Of course there are off days but these 3 are the most consistent & definitely the best IMHO.

#231 robefc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:04

The fans?? :lol: No, no, you didn´t even mention the worst part... you can expect that sort of thing from a fan, but it´s not only the fans!! The guys themselves pull that "praise each other to look better, and dismiss the rest" trick.

I think they both are insecure characters. When you feel the need to constantly point out how you´re at the very top, and others are below, it probably means you know inside you it´s not exactly like that.


Lewis is clearly insecure but personally I feel that's down to sensitivity as to how he's perceived rather than belief in his own driving.

I think it hurts him that vettel is the guy getting the success and he believes it's down to the car...that drives him mad so he feels the need to point it out all the time.



#232 ForeverF1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:10

Lewis is clearly insecure but personally I feel that's down to sensitivity as to how he's perceived rather than belief in his own driving.

I think it hurts him that vettel is the guy getting the success and he believes it's down to the car...that drives him mad so he feels the need to point it out all the time.

Which, really, is no different to Seb droning on about the "magic button" (No, not Jenson).

#233 Skinnyguy

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:22

Which, really, is no different to Seb droning on about the "magic button" (No, not Jenson).


It is. A lot.

Seb was crying like a spoiled brat because he had just been passed for the lead in the middle of a intense race distance fight that was crutial for the ongoing WDC battle.

Lewis can cry about how much faster Red Bull is this year (is it any faster than McLaren actually?) and how much apexes Seb can miss and still get pole at 60 BPM while being interviewed in a boring conference room.


#234 robefc

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:34

It is. A lot.

Seb was crying like a spoiled brat because he had just been passed for the lead in the middle of a intense race distance fight that was crutial for the ongoing WDC battle.


Lewis can cry about how much faster Red Bull is this year (is it any faster than McLaren actually?) and how much apexes Seb can miss and still get pole at 60 BPM while being interviewed in a boring conference room.


Are you referring to Austin? Because I think ForeverF1 is referring to 2009 (Kers), although I could be wrong.

Regardless, I agree, Lewis is much more likely to bare his soul, for better or for worse, than Vettel.

#235 OldSoldier2

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:08

Thats the top 3 ranking in the 2012 championship, not the 'official best 3 drivers in F1' ranking.


So this thread is more 'official' than points scored?

#236 Infinityl

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:16

Alonso can fight for a championship without the best car, is a fact.
Hamilton can too, a little less performance than Alonso in a middle car, but he can.
Vettel can? we dont know. We know he can win with the best car, but i dont see him fighting for WDC with the 3rd 4th car.

#237 Wander

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:28

Not undisputed, cause I think Kimi is just as good as any one of those three.



#238 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 23:30

I think it was to Lewis. He did it as he passed him, so...


It was also as he passed the pitwall. Honestly I think it would be an extraordinarily unusual gesture for him to have directed that at Hamilton. In the immediate aftermath of the race, you're not in a rush to congratulate the next guy, you're taking stock of your own events. It's one thing patting another guy on the back in front of the cameras afterwards and saying 'good job', quite another a voluntary gesture like that. I find it weird if he did mean it towards Hamilton. Still think it was aimed at the pitwall, which would also tally with his radio message.

#239 aditya-now

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:48

What about Kimi? Surely you havent neglected him.


Yes, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel = Raikkonen are probably the "three" best drivers in F1 right now.


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#240 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:08

1 Sebastian Vettel German 273
2 Fernando Alonso Spanish 260
3 Kimi Räikkönen Finnish 206



Posters, Journo's, Pundits other drivers, etc can all give their opinion on who the best top 3 are, at the end of the season F1.com will publish the result, and no amount of dispute, debate, or argument on this board, and in all probability outside of this board will change that.

Currently, the top 3 drivers are listed above.



Not so sure about Alonso's form of late. In Abu Dhabi he missed a golden opportunity to take a win but let Kimi drive away on the restart. In the United States he was 40 secs off the leaders and slower than his teammate. Also his qualifying has been poor, especially in the latter half of the season.

The order at this moment may be Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso. But it is hard to argue with the championship tables.

ps. Also after the race in Abu Dhabi he looked exhausted, maybe a sign that he is a bit out of shape.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 21 November 2012 - 03:24.


#241 aditya-now

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:18

Not so sure about Alonso's form of late. In Abu Dhabi he missed a golden opportunity to take a win but let Kimi drive away on the restart. In the United States he was 30 secs off the leaders and slower than his teammate. Also his qualifying has been poor, especially in the latter half of the season.

The order may be Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Alonso.


I remember how the Ferrari's set-up was suddenly going away from Kimi starting the French GP 2008, and favouring Felipe Massa. Not sure if we see the same phenomenon this year, but it is quite noticeable, that in the same races that Felipe returned to form, Alonso at the same time did not seem so strong like before.

If they indeed changed the set-up in Felipe's direction like in 2008 that was poor strategy of course. In 2008 they lost the WDC (which in my opinion Kimi would have taken without blinking, had the Ferrari still been tuned in to his liking), and now in 2012 their sure bet would have been Alonso, who seems to be fighting windmills since the summer break.

Considering these things - they are some of those mysterious Ferrari happenings, like 3 wheels for Eddie Irvine at Nurburgring 1999, a "perfect" strategy for Fernando Alonso in Abu Dhabi 2010 and of course the strategy hick-up for Fernando Alonso in Monaco 2012, who would have taken the win there....

Edited by aditya-now, 21 November 2012 - 03:26.


#242 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:28

I remember how the Ferrari's set-up was suddenly going away from Kimi starting the French GP 2008, and favouring Felipe Massa. Not sure if we see the same phenomenon this year, but it is quite noticeable, that in the same races that Felipe returned to form, Alonso at the same time did not seem so strong at the same time.

If they indeed changed the set-up in Felipe's direction like in 2008 that was poor strategy of course. In 2008 they lost the WDC (which in my opinion Kimi would have taken without blinking, had the Ferrari still been tuned in to his liking), and now in 2012 their sure bet would have been Alonso, who seems to be fighting windmills since the summer break.

Considering these things - they are some of those mysterious Ferrari happenings, like 3 wheels for Eddie Irvine at Nurburgring 1999, a "perfect" strategy for Fernando Alonso in Abu Dhabi 2010 and of course the strategy hick-up for Fernando Alonso in Monaco 2012, who would have taken the win there....



Good observation aditya. This may be the case where an effort by Ferrari to help Massa has again upset the balance for their top driver. In any case it certainly does look like Alonso is not performing at 100% right now.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 21 November 2012 - 23:36.


#243 Seanspeed

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:34

So this thread is more 'official' than points scored?

Thats not what I said at all.

Somebody thats never even watched an F1 race could look at a Wikipedia page and see who the top 3 in the championship were. But people that actually watch know there's more to it than that. This isn't some spec series. Winning a WDC is as much down to the team as it is the driver. And a race is long. Things happen. Just hearing what the result was will never tell the whole picture.

#244 HPT

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:06

I always look at question like this one as "if I were a team boss, who would I choose to be my #1 driver?" And my answer is (in no particular order because it's more relevant to the top 3 aspect of this thread) - Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. Therefore I voted yes.

There are some days that Alonso will get beaten by Massa, such as last weekend, and some days when Vettel will get beaten by Webber and Hamilton by Button. But as a whole, those 3 would be at the top of my list when choosing drivers. The next driver I'd choose after those 3 is Kimi. And then Button. And then Webber. In that order. It gets a bit tougher after that.

#245 F1isZen

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 22:27

BS, he has won without the best car ( example monza 2008 with Toro Rosso) and will even in the future.Also this season McLaren has and is on par with Red Bull



For Gods sake, what's up with these peple that keep bringing up Monza 08! He won in the best car in those conditions and even his crap team mate qualified 4th. Most of the grid that day was reversed due to conditions NOT DRIVER SKILL.

Maldonado won a race this year, Perez almost snatched it from Alonso in Singapore, Hulkenburg qualified on pole in 1 race last year. Conditions can sometimes create anomalies, stop pretending like this is something new. There is a reason why it was a one-off. Even the WDC for that year qualified in 15th that race

Edited by F1isZen, 21 November 2012 - 22:33.


#246 whitevisor

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 22:36

For Gods sake, what's up with these peple that keep bringing up Monza 08! He won in the best car in those conditions and even his crap team mate qualified 4th. Most of the grid that day was reversed due to conditions NOT DRIVER SKILL.

Maldonado won a race this year, Perez almost snatched it from Alonso in Singapore, Hulkenburg qualified on pole in 1 race last year. Conditions can sometimes create anomalies, stop pretending like this is something new. There is a reason why it was a one-off. Even the WDC for that year qualified in 15th that race


Some believe Vettel generates downforce. I think that counts as driver skill. :drunk:

#247 ZZei

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 23:17

Just look at the standings this year. To not include raikkonen in the list is ridicilous. After all hes 3rd in the WDC with the 4th best car. Hes just as good if not better than all of these three. They all have different strenghts and different attitudes but surely each of them have weaknesses too. You could say alonso loses his head under pressure, kimi sucks at quali, hamilton either wins or crashes, vettel is a crybaby but after all theyre performing on such a high level you cant really know.


#248 Watkins74

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 23:43

Just look at the standings this year. To not include raikkonen in the list is ridicilous. After all hes 3rd in the WDC with the 4th best car. Hes just as good if not better than all of these three. They all have different strenghts and different attitudes but surely each of them have weaknesses too. You could say alonso loses his head under pressure, kimi sucks at quali, hamilton either wins or crashes, vettel is a crybaby but after all theyre performing on such a high level you cant really know.

That E-20 was not consistently the 4th best car before the August break.

#249 emburmak

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 00:10

There are so many Alonso or Hamilton fans. The Alonso fans all want to say Hamilton is amazing, implying Alonso is also amazing since they were matched in 2007. The Hamilton fans all want to say Alonso is a god for the same reason (that it implies Hamilton is a god due to 2007). And then the only people going around equivalently raving about Kimi are his fans, and the same for Vettel.

To me, when you factor out that BS, you're left with that Vettel is clearly the most consistent and successful driver in F1 presently. However, Kimi is in an noncompetitive team and completely outdrove both Alonso and Hamilton during the majority of the last 5 years. Sure, you could say Hamilton out drove him in 2008, but then Button out drove Hamilton by an even larger margin last season. You could say Alonso outdrove Kimi 6 and 7 years ago, but you could also say that 2007 (where Kimi outdrove everyone) is more relevant and that the 2005 WDC really could have gone either way. In Alonso's case, there are almost 10 seasons now where he's been in F1 but only the 2 championships 6 and 7 years ago.

For lack of current and applicable data, we can't say Kimi is the best. Among the other 3, any sensible person has to acknowledge that Vettel has been head and shoulders above everyone else.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


Excellent post. I tire of these 'Vettel is in the best car' myth and the totally discredited 'he can only hack it from the front'. Without a shadow of doubt, Vettel is currently the King of F1. Results as they say speak for themselves.




1--Vettel--simply the quickest. The quali-king, some of his quali performances this season have been like daylight robbery. I have lost count of the number of times, I thought he couldn't get pole only to be disabused. His race performances this season. expercially earlier on, has cemented an already formidable reputation. A 3rd crown is all that remains for admittance into the all-time great pantheon.

2--Hamilton---the most exciting & arguably the most formidable racer. Hamilton has at times been spectacular but is more akin to a Montoya with a crown. He brings more excitement to the track than any other but to use a popular state-side comment--where's the beef?? A modern day GV with all the dramas involved.

3--Alonso--Yes, FA has been wonderfully consistent over the years but a woefully inconsistent Massa has flattered him over the past 3 seasons. His current position has more to do with Mclaren's cock-ups and Webber's inadequacies than Ferrari's prancing horse.

4--KR--back from his sabbitical has shown great speed but tends exibit tentativeness. Rustiness? RG has shown him up in quali a number of times.

JB--nobody's idea of F1's best--has truth be told given a better account of himself than most including myself thought he could. He even--shock of shocks-- bested LH last year. Unbelivable.

:cool:

Edited by emburmak, 22 November 2012 - 00:13.


#250 Nahnever

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 00:20

It was also as he passed the pitwall. Honestly I think it would be an extraordinarily unusual gesture for him to have directed that at Hamilton. In the immediate aftermath of the race, you're not in a rush to congratulate the next guy, you're taking stock of your own events. It's one thing patting another guy on the back in front of the cameras afterwards and saying 'good job', quite another a voluntary gesture like that. I find it weird if he did mean it towards Hamilton. Still think it was aimed at the pitwall, which would also tally with his radio message.

I think he was just in awe of the battle they just had. They were like 35 seconds ahead of the rest of the field trading Fastest lap after Fastest lap. I can't remember the last time Vettel was pushed like that. When Vettel loses a race, its usually either down to lack of pace or some other mistake. He's usually able to eek out a massive gap over everyone else. I think he was just simply stunned that Lewis was not just able to live with his pace but also better him.

It was a nice gesture from Seb.