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Whitmarsh; "it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us." [split]


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#1 F.M.

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:14

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404

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#2 F.M.

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:14

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404

#3 Fatgadget

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:45

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404

OUCH! The knives are out already! :lol:

#4 Ferrari2183

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:51

OUCH! The knives are out already! :lol:

And I dare say that it is McLaren's unparalleled focus on equality that has played a part in Hamilton leaving McLaren too.

#5 pUs

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:54

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404


Not that unexpected, still refreshing to see it openly admitted :up:

#6 Outsider

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:54

maybe Macca wanted Fernando to work for Hamilton in 2007? when he still had clear chance to win WDC

#7 One

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:55

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404


I think the Massa's gear box decision made by the team was just right.
On the contrary, if media rumor is correct, diffuser choice on Fernando's car was incorrect.
If Fernando raced on the same car as Massa did...
Technical team of Ferrari disappoints me, the most....

#8 kpchelsea

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:56

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404

This doesn't surprise me i think Alonso saw in Schumacher the template for winning multiple WDC's

#9 as65p

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 13:59

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404


Well, McLaren would never put their second driver on inferior strategies 9 out of 10 times for two years, or make him move over for their no.1 whenever the need arises. So clearly from this position of moral superiority Whitmarsh is perfectly entitled to that statement.

Right? :cat:

#10 Enzoluis

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:01

This doesn't surprise me i think Alonso saw in Schumacher the template for winning multiple WDC's



Stefano Domenicali saw in Alonso the new Schumacher, but he fall short.

#11 selespeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:05

Stefano Domenicali saw in Alonso the new Schumacher, but he fall short.



yes...but he got there eventually in the 5th year...

#12 currupipi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:06

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404



so now we know why lewis is leaving mclaren

#13 kpchelsea

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:07

And I dare say that it is McLaren's unparalleled focus on equality that has played a part in Hamilton leaving McLaren too.

Well its a fact its harder for him to be fighting tooth and nail against Button whilst Vettel and Alonso have much more compliant teammates

#14 kpchelsea

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:09

Stefano Domenicali saw in Alonso the new Schumacher, but he fall short.

Yes he did but its the team that is falling short

#15 currupipi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:09

yes...but he got there eventually in the 5th year...



:lol:

#16 Enzoluis

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:11

Yes he did but its the team that is falling short



Yes the team is falling short too and so?

#17 kpchelsea

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:14

Yes the team is falling short too and so?

Alonso can't make up the difference against a driver of Vettel's calibre

#18 slmk

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:16

Well, McLaren would never put their second driver on inferior strategies 9 out of 10 times for two years, or make him move over for their no.1 whenever the need arises. So clearly from this position of moral superiority Whitmarsh is perfectly entitled to that statement.

Right? :cat:


You had been awfully quiet up to that point...

But, hey, I partly agree with you on this one.

#19 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:18

Surprise, surprise:

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh suggested that Ferrari's tactic was exactly the kind of policy that his outfit's reluctance to get involved had displeased Alonso during their ill-fated 2007 partnership.

"it was not doing those things that meant that Fernando left us."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104404

Well, surprise surprise indeed. Or not really. Seems Ferrari and Fernando are a perfect match. I know Fernandos followers will argue that they dont see any problem with it. But it only once again highlights the shady nature of Alonso. One thing is to win on merit. Another thing is to completely use and extrapolate your teammate to an inch of his dignity and then shrug your shoulders afterwards. And use the rules to gain what I think is an unfair advantage. What about those people that were on the clean side and suddenly found themselves on the dirty side.

To me, that is not sporting, nor deserving, nor honorful or commendable. But perhaps those things dont matter to some people anymore. They do to me. And that is why I could never support a person like Alonso. No matter how great a driver he is. He is great, yes. But he is seriously sticky.

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#20 Gareth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:20

Well, McLaren would never put their second driver on inferior strategies 9 out of 10 times for two years, or make him move over for their no.1 whenever the need arises. So clearly from this position of moral superiority Whitmarsh is perfectly entitled to that statement.

Right? :cat:

Ferrari have proven, again, that whilst all teams play this game, one team plays it to a greater extreme than anyone else.

Austria 2002 (team orders so early in a season), Germany 2010 (team orders during the ban, without one driver out of the WDC or an "in-race" tactical reason for the switch) and now USA 2012 (first ever deliberate penalty to move the other driver up the grid).

I think it's great on two counts:

1. I think it's the right approach to maximise the chances of the WDC. It's the way I would operate a team, were I a team principal.

2. It's good fun watching the mental gymnastics of people trying to pretend this is "business as usual" vs what other teams do (its not - no other team has gone to this extreme), or that it's somehow different to the treatment the arch-enemy Schumacher received.

#21 currupipi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:21

Well, McLaren would never put their second driver on inferior strategies 9 out of 10 times for two years, or make him move over for their no.1 whenever the need arises. So clearly from this position of moral superiority Whitmarsh is perfectly entitled to that statement.

Right? :cat:



:rotfl:

so true maybe now we know the real reason lewis is leaving mclaren, of course whitty would never stretch the truth :rotfl:

#22 Dolph

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:21

maybe Macca wanted Fernando to work for Hamilton in 2007? when he still had clear chance to win WDC


And maybe the Aliens were at Rosevelt. But lets leave aside things that have no relevance to this thread.

#23 Dolph

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:24

Well, surprise surprise indeed. Or not really. Seems Ferrari and Fernando are a perfect match. I know Fernandos followers will argue that they dont see any problem with it. But it only once again highlights the shady nature of Alonso. One thing is to win on merit. Another thing is to completely use and extrapolate your teammate to an inch of his dignity and then shrug your shoulders afterwards. And use the rules to gain what I think is an unfair advantage. What about those people that were on the clean side and suddenly found themselves on the dirty side.

To me, that is not sporting, nor deserving, nor honorful or commendable. But perhaps those things dont matter to some people anymore. They do to me. And that is why I could never support a person like Alonso. No matter how great a driver he is. He is great, yes. But he is seriously sticky.


Thats nonsensical. Why do the drivers who were switched to the dirty side deserve to be on the clean side more than others?

#24 Tsarwash

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:25

Ferrari take the number one driver policy far further than all other teams do. Only Red Bull seem to be as close to them in this respect.

#25 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:29

McLaren once switched places between Hakkinen and Coulthard for no apparent reason. Just in case...I´m talking about Jerez 97, not Melbourne 98

Indy 2000 was also funny:
DC took the lead thanks to a Jump-Start. After McLaren had been informed, that DC had to serve his penalty soon, they used him as a roadblock in order to allow Hakkinen to overtake 2nd placed Schumacher (which failed as MSC overtook DC instead :lol: ).

But they were always good in pretending, that they´re morally above the rest.

Edited by LiJu914, 19 November 2012 - 14:32.


#26 as65p

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:30

Ferrari have proven, again, that whilst all teams play this game, one team plays it to a greater extreme than anyone else.

Austria 2002 (team orders so early in a season), Germany 2010 (team orders during the ban, without one driver out of the WDC or an "in-race" tactical reason for the switch) and now USA 2012 (first ever deliberate penalty to move the other driver up the grid).

I think it's great on two counts:

1. I think it's the right approach to maximise the chances of the WDC. It's the way I would operate a team, were I a team principal.

2. It's good fun watching the mental gymnastics of people trying to pretend this is "business as usual" vs what other teams do (its not - no other team has gone to this extreme), or that it's somehow different to the treatment the arch-enemy Schumacher received.


Well, at least we've established that every team would try to favour their one driver remaining in the WDC fight.

The "extreme" in this case was more how Ferrari handled this openly, me thinks. That's what I don't see other teams doing - and I'm by no means saying it's due to Ferrari's culture, far from it, I rather reckon it's Domenicalis way, he ultimately isn't as ruthless as most of his peers, a weakness I think.

I'm pretty sure they could have faked a genuine failure, even fooling Massa, if they wanted too.

#27 RealRacing

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:34

To me, that is not sporting, nor deserving, nor honorful or commendable. But perhaps those things dont matter to some people anymore. They do to me. And that is why I could never support a person like Alonso. No matter how great a driver he is. He is great, yes. But he is seriously sticky.


+1. It's kind of sad that FA lets these types of situations diminish an otherwise very good year of driving. Now, no matter what happens in Brasil, his season will be tainted. Although it's nothing new with Alonso, these kinds of things explain why he's the least liked driver out there and why many of us always doubt him and his dealings, from team status to suspicion in race-fixing participation.

#28 Gareth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:34

Well, at least we've established that every team would try to favour their one driver remaining in the WDC fight.

Of course.

The "extreme" in this case was more how Ferrari handled this openly, me thinks. That's what I don't see other teams doing - and I'm by no means saying it's due to Ferrari's culture, far from it, I rather reckon it's Domenicalis way, he ultimately isn't as ruthless as most of his peers, a weakness I think.

I don't agree. He was more than happy to barefaced lie after Hockenheim 2010. I found the whole "we are open and tell the truth, that's the way we operate" aspect to it laughable, to be honest. It was a PR move (coming clean, making a big play about being transparent), plain and simple, IMO.

There were rumours that this would happen in the build up, well before it actually did. They never would have gotten away with a pretend problem.

It's a canny game, to try and make them look less bad because they are supposedly open and to try and provide a smokescreen of "hey, maybe other teams do it and they just don't tell you about it" (I highly doubt it).

I applaud their ruthlesness in this most ruthless of sports. I find their PR amusing.

#29 Vesuvius

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:36

maybe Macca wanted Fernando to work for Hamilton in 2007? when he still had clear chance to win WDC


lol no, McLaren had equal treatment and Alonso wanted number one status. McLaren didn't gave it to him and things didn't work out between them.

#30 fabr68

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:37

You can shut holes on Alonso all day long.

But now that Hamilton is leaving too maybe the drivers are not the problem.

Kovalainen has not forgotten Germany 2008 or most of that season.

Edited by fabr68, 19 November 2012 - 14:40.


#31 Massa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:39

Yes, Hamilton is leaving too and next year they will have Perez and Button. Raikkonen leave this team, to go at Ferrari and win his only WDC and two WDC.

Edited by Massa, 19 November 2012 - 14:40.


#32 prty

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:40

Of course.


I don't agree. He was more than happy to barefaced lie after Hockenheim 2010. I found the whole "we are open and tell the truth, that's the way we operate" aspect to it laughable, to be honest. It was a PR move (coming clean, making a big play about being transparent), plain and simple, IMO.

There were rumours that this would happen in the build up, well before it actually did. They never would have gotten away with a pretend problem.

It's a canny game, to try and make them look less bad because they are supposedly open and to try and provide a smokescreen of "hey, maybe other teams do it and they just don't tell you about it" (I highly doubt it).

I applaud their ruthlesness in this most ruthless of sports. I find their PR amusing.


They weren't open about Hockenheim 2010 because the rules didn't allow them to be open about it, not because of PR. They just did what every other team had done in the forbidden team orders era, but being Ferrari and especially Alonso, there was a huge uproar.
This time the rules allowed them to be open, and they were. I cannot see for example Red Bull racing doing this, just see the "front wing troubles" in Silverstone 2010.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that being open about it is the right way to go in F1, in the light of a few years watching.

Edited by prty, 19 November 2012 - 14:42.


#33 as65p

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:42

Of course.


I don't agree. He was more than happy to barefaced lie after Hockenheim 2010. I found the whole "we are open and tell the truth, that's the way we operate" aspect to it laughable, to be honest. It was a PR move (coming clean, making a big play about being transparent), plain and simple, IMO.

There were rumours that this would happen in the build up, well before it actually did. They never would have gotten away with a pretend problem.

It's a canny game, to try and make them look less bad because they are supposedly open and to try and provide a smokescreen of "hey, maybe other teams do it and they just don't tell you about it" (I highly doubt it).

I applaud their ruthlesness in this most ruthless of sports. I find their PR amusing.


I'm not talking about Hockenheim 2010. PR or not, they were open about it this time, and I suspect the early rumours came about because of that. I can easily see Todt/Brawn faking the whole thing without blinking once.

of course you're free to "highly doubt" other teams would go as far. I don't, it all depends on the team management at any given point in time.

#34 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:46

This time the rules allowed them to be open, and they were. I cannot see for example Red Bull racing doing this, just see the "front wing troubles" in Silverstone 2010.


In which way was RB not open about the fact, that they decided to give SV the remaining updated frontwing after the other had collapsed? (Genuine question as i don´t remember every tiny detail about that).

#35 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:46

Popcorn.

Wonder why McLaren feels the need to point this out now. I thought it was Fernando who would one day talk about all that happened in there, at least that´s what we were told by the Spanish media. No wonder he does not say anythig if this was the problem. :lol:

#36 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:46

Alonso and Lewis were both title contenders. Lewis was actually leading for much of the season, so it'd have silly for Alonso to expect Mclaren to give Lewis gearbox penalties and whatever. I seriously doubt that had anything to do with him leaving.

#37 Massa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:47

Like Domenicali said after the race, if one team in the choose of Ferrari this weekend said they will not do the same, they are liar. It's why Red Bull and Mclaren say nothing, it's just because they know they would have done the same. I even think these both teams would fake an gearbox failure, at least Ferrari were open with this.

#38 Fontainebleau

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:50

+1. It's kind of sad that FA lets these types of situations diminish an otherwise very good year of driving. Now, no matter what happens in Brasil, his season will be tainted. Although it's nothing new with Alonso, these kinds of things explain why he's the least liked driver out there and why many of us always doubt him and his dealings, from team status to suspicion in race-fixing participation.

Says who? Just because you don't like him, do you assume the rest of the world has to agree with you? And you complain about others wanting things their way?

#39 RealRacing

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:50

Not that unexpected, still refreshing to see it openly admitted :up:


Ahhh, Ferrari, Domenicalli and Alonso, the epitome of honesty, morality and fairness in F1.

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#40 robefc

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:51

Like Domenicali said after the race, if one team in the choose of Ferrari this weekend said they will not do the same, they are liar. It's why Red Bull and Mclaren say nothing, it's just because they know they would have done the same. I even think these both teams would fake an gearbox failure, at least Ferrari were open with this.


You realise you are in a thread that started with a quote from the mclaren TP right? :)

Edited by robefc, 19 November 2012 - 14:51.


#41 LiJu914

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:53

Like Domenicali said after the race, if one team in the choose of Ferrari this weekend said they will not do the same, they are liar. It's why Red Bull and Mclaren say nothing, it's just because they know they would have done the same. I even think these both teams would fake an gearbox failure, at least Ferrari were open with this.


Yeah, Ferrari making a questionable move, is probably the right basis to blame other teams. :rolleyes:

#42 Gareth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:55

They just did what every other team had done in the forbidden team orders era, but being Ferrari and especially Alonso, there was a huge uproar.

No other team in that era switched drivers without one being out of the WDC or there being an "in-race" tactical reason to do so.

There was an uproar because, as with Austria 2002, Ferrari were going to a greater extreme than any other team has done.

I'd be proud of it if I were a Ferrari fan. As a Schumacher fan, I recognised the advantage he gained from the team but felt that this was something he earned with his driving in 9/10 of the races. I didn't think it diminished him, it was only because he was so good that he received such treatment. Much the same can be said of Alonso, IMO.

I'm not talking about Hockenheim 2010. PR or not, they were open about it this time, and I suspect the early rumours came about because of that. I can easily see Todt/Brawn faking the whole thing without blinking once.

I know you're not talking about that. What I'm saying is that I find Stefano's claims that they were open because that is Ferrari's modus operandi to be a bit far fetched - given he has been quite content to tell the most transparent of lies in the past. So I find the idea that Ferrari are different to other teams only in that they were open about it quite far fetched also.

As to the rumours coming about because of Ferrari's openness - I think that's optimistic. I suspect they came about precisely because it was Ferrari who were involved, and everyone knows how they deal with their drivers so felt that it was a possibility.

of course you're free to "highly doubt" other teams would go as far. I don't, it all depends on the team management at any given point in time.

With regards to the past: how many times have we seen a team's second driver have a gearbox problem manifest itself between qualy and the race, after they out-qualified the team's lead driver? That's literally the maximum number of examples where this could have happened before, let alone has happened.

As to the future, I agree. When I said "highly doubt", I meant in the past. Who knows what approach other teams will take in the future. Maybe one day another team will hit Ferrari's heights (if only a top team would employ me!).

#43 boldhakka

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:56

Like Domenicali said after the race, if one team in the choose of Ferrari this weekend said they will not do the same, they are liar. It's why Red Bull and Mclaren say nothing, it's just because they know they would have done the same. I even think these both teams would fake an gearbox failure, at least Ferrari were open with this.


Pretty sure no other team will do this. Ferrari has a perfect storm with:
1. An infinitely capable driver in Alonso who has the confidence to demand something like this and instill the faith that he will maximize any small advantage (which he did).
2. A pliable team-mate who has already played second fiddle before.
3. A culture and history of pushing the rules to the limit.

If any of these three factors didn't exist, they wouldn't have tried it. There's no other team that has this combination currently or in the near past and future.

#44 Massa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 14:58

You realise you are in a thread that started with a quote from the mclaren TP right? :)



He say nothing bad against Ferrari. Same for Red Bull. If they were unhappy with this, they would have found a way to protest.

#45 Massa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:03

Yeah, Ferrari making a questionable move, is probably the right basis to blame other teams. :rolleyes:



Questionable move ? Not for me. If Ferrari want to start 5 places behind their Q result, to have an advantage on the race it's their problem and it's not questionable. When Red Bull had a flexi FW who is against the spirit of the rules, everybody said " Kudos to Newey, he is the best, he exploit a loophole etc... " And i'm agree with that, if it's not forbidden, it's allowed...

But it's the same with Ferrari now, they saw that with a grip penalty, they could start on the right side of the grid. They are some risks to do that, Massa could have been in trouble at T1 because he was in the middle of the grid. They took this risks and it was good for them.

I don't blame others teams, i just said IMHO that Red Bull and Mclaren would have been fake a gearbox problem, because these teams had never been open with these kind of stuff. Ferrari with Todt it was the same, but now with Domenicali the team didn't lie.

Edited by Massa, 19 November 2012 - 15:04.


#46 speng

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:03

Well, surprise surprise indeed. Or not really. Seems Ferrari and Fernando are a perfect match. I know Fernandos followers will argue that they dont see any problem with it. But it only once again highlights the shady nature of Alonso. One thing is to win on merit. Another thing is to completely use and extrapolate your teammate to an inch of his dignity and then shrug your shoulders afterwards. And use the rules to gain what I think is an unfair advantage. What about those people that were on the clean side and suddenly found themselves on the dirty side.

To me, that is not sporting, nor deserving, nor honorful or commendable. But perhaps those things dont matter to some people anymore. They do to me. And that is why I could never support a person like Alonso. No matter how great a driver he is. He is great, yes. But he is seriously sticky.

Could not agree more

#47 engel

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:05

but now with Domenicali the team didn't lie.


or they didn't lie cause there wasn't enough time to make the lie believable. Keep in mind, Massa got the penalty but he didn't get a new gearbox to go with it ;)

#48 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:08

1. An infinitely capable driver in Alonso who has the confidence to demand something like this and instill the faith that he will maximize any small advantage (which he did).

I dont remember hearing that Alonso was the one who demanded it. But feel free to provide a source.

2. A pliable team-mate who has already played second fiddle before.

Doesn't matter that Massa has done it before. Its the fact that he's out of the championship. Ferrari would have asked anybody sitting in that seat in that position to do the same.

3. A culture and history of pushing the rules to the limit.

Thats what winning F1 teams do.

This is just a thread where people get an opportunity to vent their hate, really.

#49 Massa

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:14

I dont remember hearing that Alonso was the one who demanded it. But feel free to provide a source.


Doesn't matter that Massa has done it before. Its the fact that he's out of the championship. Ferrari would have asked anybody sitting in that seat in that position to do the same.


Thats what winning F1 teams do.

This is just a thread where people get an opportunity to vent their hate, really.


:up:

All team push the rules at the limit. This sport is a big business, you have to push on the limit or you will be nowhere, loose a lot of money, have a bad reputation ( look at Mercedes now ) . Really, i don't understand the fuss about this trick, for me it was very clever, like Mclaren with their fiddle brake, Red Bull with their trick etc..

Edited by Massa, 19 November 2012 - 15:15.


#50 boldhakka

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:15

I was actually praising Alonso there, and I think Ferrari did the right thing. Just don't think other teams would do it because of the mentioned reasons.